View Full Version : What tang site for long range?
02-25-2006, 08:18 PM
I am looking at tang sights for my Win 94 to use for silhouette. I want to get the additional sight radius and get the peep closer to my eye. I have a Redfield receiver sight on the rifle now and I used about .4" of travel on the elevation slide to go from chickens to rams. I might need a little more than that with a longer sight radius, although if I use a bullet with a higher B.C. at a higher velocity, the .4" might be enough. But then I might also get a longer barrel and then I would need more travel too. Anyway the .4" is probably a minimum.
The Marbles tang sight has the windage adjustment, which would be nice. Has anybody used one at distances around 500 meters? I am wondering if it has enough vertical travel to allow a dead on hold at 500 meters?
The Lyman tang sight is also a possibility since I can always hold into the wind. I am not sure how helpful the windage adjustment would be anyway if it isn't precise and repeatable. Anybody use the Lyman at long range? Or any other tang site?
02-25-2006, 08:28 PM
Have you looked at Buffalo Arms?
02-25-2006, 08:49 PM
For good sights, get ready for sticker shock!!!
02-26-2006, 07:41 AM
Sticker shock, yes indeedy.
When it finally came time to put a GOOD sight on my Shiloh Sharps', I'd prospected around enough to get a feel for the cost. However, when the actual time came when I had to dig into my jeans pocket and fork over $360 CASH to the very nice and knowledgeable Mrs Axtell at the Big Reno Show, it was a real gulper of a moment.
Of course, that didn't include ANOTHER $120 I'd spent for a spirit-level front sight with eleventeen interchangeable apertures, either.
Mind you, quality is never a mistake, and the rifle is far more shootable now with the new equipment. Still, it was more moola than I've ever spent on a scope sight, or even THOUGHT about spending for a scope. Just goes to show how nutty a real nutcase can be, I guess.
02-26-2006, 08:43 AM
Trailblazer... Lovedogs here. I've had real good luck with Lee Shaver and his sights. His address is www.egunsmith.com He's mostly a single-shot guy but may have something you can use with a bumper jack. He's supplied several reasonably priced sights for local H&R Buffalo Classic users. Mine was only $150 for a Soule type sight. It's not as spendy as some of the other big names but it sure works fine. I lob 500 gr. .45-70's accurately to a half-mile using this sight. Good luck and God bless!
02-26-2006, 08:18 PM
Mostly just to commiserate with BruceB-I shoot a Browning BPCR (pretty badly) as my silhouette rifle; last fall I decided to finally upgrade from the Browning sights to MVA. The MVA Buffalo Soule midrange and windage adjustable front cost me more than the rifle! And I may well have paid too much for the rifle, way back when I bought it. But the sights are a joy to use, magnificent workmanship. I've heard only good things about Lee Shaver and Axtell, too. Haven't tried the Marble's tang, but I've had several of the (new) Lymans-good sights, not particularly easy to adjust (I'm spoiled now), but dependable once sighted in-never tried any real long range shooting with 'em.
02-27-2006, 06:27 AM
I know these sights are expensive if you get the good ones. I have less than $200 in the rifle. Bought it originally for $140 and then spent $46 on a 24" barrel from Numrich. Hard to think about spending as much on iron sights as on a good scope. There used to be a fellow that came to our blackpowder silhouette match that made tang sights. Can't remember his name-might be Brock or something like that.
We have a match Saturday if it doesn't get rained out. I can talk to the blackpowder shooters and look more closely at what they are using. I am thinking of getting a Lyman globe sight for the front since they aren't to expensive. I doubt that the Marbles or Lyman tang sights will work that well in a match where you are making constant adjustments. I was surprised at the amount of backlash in the Redfield.
I will check Shaver's site out. Thanks.
Shaver's link doesn't work, but I have a question. What is a "Soule" sight? What is special about a "Soule" sight?
02-27-2006, 06:53 AM
Windage adjusted at the sight base, instead of at the eyepiece, or on the front sight
02-27-2006, 08:53 AM
If price is no object, the MVA Long Range sight for lever guns is the way to go, but it's pricey, at I think $370 or so. Personally, I've had great success with the Marble's sight, shooting Long Range Side matches in Cowboy Action Shooting with both lever gun and single shots, with both smokeless and black powder, for about 7 years now. In a match, if you're not on target, the clicks are easy to count and fast to change a sight setting with. They've been very repeatable and I have developed a sight setting chart for my rifles (5 levers and 2 single shots), and can dial in that setting and they will all be right on or very close (somewhere on the target) in all circumstances except for very windy or very small targets. Biggest problem is guessing the range as most matches they won't tell you the distance. I used a Pedersoli Long Range sight on a Browning 1886 for several years, and finally put a Marbles on it with a longer elevation stem, and it's far better than the Pedersoli for a lever gun. If you're going to use the rifle for other things besides ultra long range stuff, I'd go with the Marbles. Also, I believe the windage adjustment is very necessary, so the Lyman is not an option, if you go past 100 yards or so.
Just my $.02, which don't mean much in the grand scheme of things.
02-27-2006, 06:36 PM
Hey Trailblazer... don't know why you couldn't get the Shaver site. I was on it just a few days ago and had no problem with it. In case you're still interested his full contact info is:
559 NW 7th Rd.
It's no small wonder his Soule sights are better than Pedersoli's because he takes a Pedersoli staff and makes a better Soule windage base for it. He also has quite an assortment of front sights and makes his own inserts, too. I've had excellent service from him and his crew. Good luck!
02-28-2006, 12:07 AM
TrailBlazer, look at buffalo arms sights. Like Bullshop prepare for sticker shock. The Parts Unknown Ukranian tang sights are well worth the money, just make sure you keep the receipt as they do honor their sights. Beautiful workmanship. Frank
02-28-2006, 07:51 AM
I looked at Buffalo arms a bit. And I saw some Shaver sights somewhere-maybe Buffalo Arms. It looks like the Sharps style sights are taller and have more travel than I need.
McLintock, money is an object and I am leaning towards the Marbles because it is a more compact design and has the windage adjustment. If it works for you it will probably work for me. The windage adjustment would be nice because it is the rare day that it isn't windy during the match! I borrowed an old Marbles tang sight yesterday. I am sure it isn't the same as the new Marbles sights. It doesn't have click adjustments-it has a lock ring and no graduations. I haven't mounted it because I don't have the screw but I taped it on to see how it works. It is to short with my current front sight. I can get on chickens and pigs with it. If I can get it together and the match isn't rained out I might try it this weekend. I also saw that Midsouth has the Lyman molds for $43. There is probably a new 311284 in my future.
Thanks for all your comments. This is totally new to me.
02-28-2006, 01:24 PM
The Marble's works pretty well for a lever gun, and the clicks make it easily repeatable. Marble's also has longer length elevation stems available for adding distance capability to a rifle. They have 3 lengths and I was able to buy 4 of them about 3-4 years ago, but now I've heard that you have to send the sight back for a different stem. Here's a look at a couple of them compared to a standard stem out of a '94 sight. I've got two of the medium length ones I've never used as the shorter or longer ones were what I needed and I never needed to shoot a lever gun at 500 yards.
http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL206/1303399/2477311/131271162.jpg The longest one (on the sight) is good for '86's, as they need a longer one due to how far back the stem is with the long bolt throw of the '86. The shortest one here is the standard one off a '94 sight and the middle one is the middle length one available. Another one, midway between the standard and the middle one is available and is good for normal long range stuff with a '94.
With an aperture front sight, probably one of two shorter ones would work and get you on at 500 meters. The stems aren't too hard to change but you have to be careful not to lose the ball bearings in the sight. Taking it apart over a catch pan of some sort is highly reccomemended. Once apart you just need a 1/16'th punch to take a retaining pin out to swap stems.
03-01-2006, 05:54 AM
Mclintock, how much did the longer stems cost? If I need to order a sight and then buy longer stems and send it into Marbles to get them fit, I might be better off to just buy a Shaver and be done with it. The Shaver has to be a better sight anyway. Or even "The Parts Unknown Ukranian tang sights" might be preferable.
03-01-2006, 06:09 AM
TrailBlazer, look at buffalo arms sights. Like Bullshop prepare for sticker shock. The Parts Unknown Ukranian tang sights are well worth the money, just make sure you keep the receipt as they do honor their sights. Beautiful workmanship. Frank
They have elevation marks on both sides of the staff, which is convenient.
BPCRS does not permit the uses of click adjustable sights. Are they used in cowboy lever?
03-01-2006, 07:02 AM
I don't know about cowboy lever. I am going to use this for High Power Rifle Silhouette.
03-01-2006, 07:56 AM
I certainly admire your competitive spirit!
03-01-2006, 09:02 AM
The stems are only about $6-8, don't know if Marble's charges to put them in or not, but with the matches you want to compete in I don't know what to tell you. I thought you were just doing this for the sake of doing it, not competeing in a highly competitive type of competition. Oh, and click adjustable sights are legal in Cowboy Action long range matches, they just have to be tang mounted, no receiver mounted sights.
03-01-2006, 05:55 PM
$6 or $8 isn't bad. I wouldn't call our little unsanctioned club shoots highly competitive. None of us shoot enough to get really good at it. But, yeah, I like the competition. I just want to get the best bang for my buck. The Marbles is $125 and the Midrange Shaver is $170 for the one with the Winchester hole pattern. It might be worth the extra $45. I will look at the tang sights the BPCR shooters are using this weekend. The blackpowder guys shoot with us so there will be a few different sights to look at.
03-08-2006, 07:51 AM
I have eliminated the Marbles sight from my list. Although I haven't quite wrapped my mind around paying $200 to $300 for a sight, I am heading in that direction. It looks like the best two choices in "economy" Soule sights are the Shaver and the Ukraine sights. I called Shaver and he has had a price increase. All his sights are now $189+$10 shipping. The Ukraine sights on Buffaloarms are a little higher but they come with the Hadley type eye cup which would be a nice feature. Although I didn't ask it looks like the Shaver with the Hadley will cost about the same.
Since there isn't much to choose from based on price, the question is which is better quality? Does anybody have experience with both of these sights or been able to compare them? Since you shoot at four different ranges in silhouette, reliable repeatability of the sight settings is the main issue.
03-08-2006, 08:01 AM
I own both sights - Shaver and Parts Unknown. The Parts Unknown (Ukranian) sights are FAR better than the Shavers. Better workmanship AND better materials. After many, many years of use (and thousands of shots) I developed a bit of looseness in one of my Parts Unknown sights. It was at least eight years old. I called Sergio and he said to send it to him. I had a new sight by return mail. Now, THAT is service!!
03-08-2006, 09:19 AM
I have not used the Shaver sight but have used the MVA and still use the PU. I sold the MVA sights I have had and kept the PU as they seamed a bit more stout. The MVA seamed a bit frail. As to quality I see little difference and am well pleased with the PU sight. They are hardened tool steel, and read from both sides of the staff and the one I have with the center mounted adjuster reads in 1/10 points. A high quality tool that will allow you to do your best work.
03-08-2006, 10:05 AM
Lots of good info here. The longer stem for the Marbles would be a good option. Also, adding a Ukranian #47 Sight Stem to the Lyman sight would add the important windage feature. I am thinking about adding this to one of my Lyman tang sights.
03-08-2006, 12:58 PM
I called Buffalo Arms this morning. They recommend the Ukraine sights over the Shaver. He says the Ukraine sights are more compact and you can also easily adjust the angle it stands at. The adjustment might be good to have in this non standard application. He said both sights are accurate and repeatable. But of course there are more questions now. The "old style" sight is $255. The "new style" sight is $295. The new style has a more easily read adjustment on the elevation. He said they are equally accurate, it is just easier to adjust the new style accurately. Is it worth $40? It looks like everybody agrees that the PU sights are the better value.
I looked at the windage stem for the Lyman. I doubt if it has enough windage for my purposes. If I had a Lyman sight I might try it.
03-08-2006, 02:17 PM
According to Sergio's ads in the Single Shot Exchange (great mag, if you don't already take it!), the New Style has finer windage and elevation graduations and more windage travel. I got a Stevens sporting tang sight from him and the workmanship is impeccable. Besides, in Ukraine, you're helping support an emerging democracy.
03-09-2006, 06:32 AM
Is Sergio the importer? Can I buy directly from him and is there any advantage to dealing directly with him? Finally can you give me contact info for Sergio?
Like BruceB, I have a lot of mental resistance to paying $300 for an iron sight. I have never spent $300 on a scope! Of course, the good scopes I have were bought years ago.
03-09-2006, 09:36 AM
Sergio Pustogorodsky is the importer and "arranger", and he does sell direct (not to put Buffalo Arms down, they are great folks, too). He works out of Winnipeg, Canada. You can reach him at <email@example.com>. There's a writeup on his "Mega Soule" long range tang sight on p. 43 of the Feb. 2006 "Single Shot Exchange". Contact Col. Brett Boyd, the publisher of SSE, at <firstname.lastname@example.org> and - if you ask nicely - he will send you a free copy as a "teaser". It is well worth subscribing to.
03-09-2006, 09:52 AM
I would definitely get the new style. All of my PU sights are of the old style. They are excellent sights but the new sight will allow you to do tenth of a minute on elevation with precision whereas the older sight you have to guess to hit it in fourths. Definite improvement and well worth the forty dollars.
As for cost, I have little to say about that except that you do NOT let the sight go with the rifle if you would ever sell your rifle. You keep the sight for the next rifle. These are precision items, represent great workmanship and if it is built like a Swiss watch I guess we had better be prepared to pay accordingly. I DO feel your pain (been there and done that) :razz: .
03-09-2006, 12:01 PM
I have the new stile. I got it because it looked stronger with the adjuster in the center and no knobs outside the main housing. The ole stile has the conventional knurled knob and screw on the side. The new stile has two adjusting dials but they are not in minutes but called points. One dial is in full points while the other is in 1/10 points. One thing I realy like about the PU sight is its calibrated on both sides of the staff. This is so helpful for ease of reading settings as light conditions change during the day. I think this is the only sight that can read from both sides.
03-09-2006, 04:29 PM
" I think this is the only sight that can read from both sides." Not the only one; the Hoke Long Range sight made by Kermitool <www.kermitool.com> does too, and it has gotten good reviews. Don't know how the prices compare though.
You kept your cool very nicely through the "flame war" of the last few days! Regards to all the family.
03-10-2006, 07:19 AM
Thanks for all your input. This internet thing is great! It would be very difficult to research this without it. I will definitely get the new model when the time comes. And I would not sell it with a rifle! I will undoubtedly get a BPCR one of these days and when I do I will have a good sight for it.
The Chief Financial Officer let me know that this will have to wait a couple months. She is still funding IRA's, etc., etc. My first wife couldn't spell money. This one is a professional bean counter and won't let me touch the checkbook! She has redeeming qualities though:
I will look into the Single Shot mag.
03-10-2006, 09:59 AM
My first wife hunted and fished, but she had other qualities that I couldn't get along with, current one doesn't hunt or fish but has the much better other qaulities; when you find one with both, keep ahold of her.
I thought all you California guys came east to hunt, Az, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah and Colorado, to get ones like this Arizona Strip buck; guess not, as you seem to have your own good ones, nice buck. The State of Arizona had to limit out of State permits to certain hunting areas a few years ago because so many permits were going out of state; but I still can't get drawn again where this one came from, gave up trying several years ago.
Good luck with your endeavor, sounds like you'll be successful once you put all the pieces together. BTW, doesn't sound like you're still interested in one, but they have Marbles sights on sale at Midway this month for $99; regular is $125.
03-10-2006, 01:11 PM
This wife is a keeper. Not least because she told me when we got married that she would kill me before she went through another divorce! She didn't hunt when I met her. She started going with me because she likes to camp and hike and didn't want to be left home alone. I was mostly a backpack hunter in those days and in the areas I hunted you had to carry all your water in. She used to be so afraid of running out of water that she would get sick and throw up and generally be miserable the whole trip. She gradually got used to it and a few years later she started buying tags and packing a rifle too. She has killed a half dozen deer now but this was her best.
You are right about California hunters going out of state. You see plenty of hunters in these mountains but you don't see many white faces. Seems ironic because if you really like to HUNT this is about the best place to hunt in the US. If you just want to kill something, you are better off almost anywhere else.
That is a super buck you have there. How wide is he? These deer don't usually get much mass even if they get fairly wide. About the biggest you ever hear of here is in the 25" range. The biggest buck I ever saw that supposedly came out of these mountains was at the local taxidermists. It was a 27" 4x4 that was hugely massive. The taxidermist said the game wardens accused the hunter of killing it up north and tagging it here. They may have been right because it was extraordinary for this country.
I saw the Midway sale and I am still considering getting the Marbles for the time being since I have the money to order that now. I have four leverguns so it would find a home on one of them. I called Brownells and asked about the stems since I would need a longer one. They used to carry them but don't anymore. I called Marbles back and was able to talk to Tony. He confirmed that he usually had people send the sight in to have the longer stems installed. I told him I was highly mechanically inclined and technically talented and wasn't afraid of removing roll pins and losing ball bearings. He told me he would sell me the stems but it has to go through Brownells. He said they are $6.00. I had another thought and that was to order the Marble sight for the Win 86. It looks like it has a longer knurled sleeve and mounts backwards as compared to the 94 model. The hole spacing is the same and the tang bolt has the same threads. I wouldn't mind having the sight closer to my eye. The only thing is I don't have an 86 to put it on later so I should probably get the 94 model and longer stems.
03-12-2006, 01:48 PM
Just for information's sake... Shaver has upgraded his long-range sight and now makes his own staffs. They are no longer roll-marked Pedersoli's. Ordering from him direct is more economical than from other sources, too. But his price did go up from $150 on the old model to $189 on the new. I ordered one the other day for a lady friend so will be able to say more on them once it arrives.
03-13-2006, 02:13 PM
As promised, I've got an update on the newly redesigned Lee Shaver Long-range Soule sight. After looking it over I called and spoke with Lee to get all the straight skinny on it. He told me that his sight is made entirely in-house now, no more Pedersoli parts on it. The windage screw has been beefed up with a 1/4 in. screw, about twice as heavy as it was before. The staff is much better built and its markings much clearer. It seems easier to adjust precisely compared to my other two-year old model. The cup is larger in diameter, has American threads so can easily be upgraded to an adjustable Hadley cup if so desired, and still has its .050 aperture. The knob atop the elevation screw is larger, easier to grasp, and has graduated markings now. After evaluation I'd say it's probably well worth the $189 price. I don't know where you'd go to get a better sight for under $200, including the shipping. Lee tells me that was his intention, to sell a quality sight for under $200. The new unit is enough better that I wish I could trade my old one in on the newer model!!
03-14-2006, 07:24 AM
Thanks for the update.
04-04-2006, 05:18 PM
Lots of good info here on sights. There are a lot of opinions, here's mine....If you want a good all around sight for your 94 for silhoutte, the Marbles will do everything you need to do and then some.
If you are going to shoot @500 the go for a LR Tang, PU or Shaver New Style would be a good choice, and moderately priced. I own a Baldwin, and have used the MVA. I also considered the Hoke, they are all good quality LR sights They are all around $500 for a LR. Again it is all personal preference.
I just ordered a New Style Shaver LR Soule to put on my Uberti Hi Wall 38-55. I started with a Marbles on it, ran out of adjustment after 200m, bought 2 different Pedersoli's, I could have bought the Shaver and been money ahead, but I didn't want to spend a lot fo money on a gun that won't shoot a heavy bullet at long distances.
I shoot Lever Action Silhoutte, and the Marbles works great- positive clicks on both elevation and windage, and repeatable! Dials right in to whatever you're shooting short course 40- 100 or 50-200. I do my testing for the levers on both the full size targets and half size to 200m, and the sights adjust as fine as any other.
Hope this helped and Good Luck,
04-04-2006, 09:46 PM
My hat's off to you. Making a 30-30 Lever work for Hi power Silhoutte is a feat in itself. I just read your other post.
My vote is for the New Style Shaver LR soule sight w/Hadley eyecup. Mine should be here tomorrow on the Brown truck(UPS), that I sometimes feel is following me like a puppy. Everytime I turn around there it is!
A log time ago, in my apprentice days, an old guy told me, a working man can only buy the best,(talking about tools and a sight is a good piece of equipment as a tool) because he can only afford to buy it once. Now I am the old guy, and have proved that theory time and again, when I have tried to save a buck.
Have Fun Shooting,
04-05-2006, 06:05 AM
those marbles are quality sights for the money ive got a couple on my LONG RANGE LEVERS and theve allways worked fine. If your looking for ultimate accuracy at 500 yards the adjs are a little course though.
Shaver, Hoke ,MVA are all excellent sights as are Parts Unknown. I have examples of each and like them very much. However, for 30-30 out to 500 yards, you could buy the Pedersoli Mid-range Soule sight kit (boxed with front sight and inserts) for around $325 and have an excellent, very well made sight set complete with front sight (windage adjustable) spirit level inserts, front sight inserts, rear sight with more than enough elevation to take the 30-30 out to 500 yards, windage adjustable, vernier scale, excellent level of repeatability, and a Hadley eye cup. Check out Cabelas or Dixie
04-05-2006, 12:20 PM
Thanks for the comments. I ordered the Marbles for the time being as I had enough money in the sock to get it now. It should be in later this week. In a few months we will have a little more money to spend and I will get one of the better sights.
Our silhouette match was canceled due to rain Saturday so I didn't get my long range fix this month! I am going to the range tomorrow to test some loads with bullets from the Saeco 301 mold I picked up. Bare cast weigh 205 gr. They fit the bore fairly well. I didn't get the mold clean enough and got deposits in the mold. I cleaned it and tried again and it built up deposits again. I am hoping that when I finally get the mold clean enough to cast some completely filled out bullets that they will be a little tighter in the bore. I am going to test what I have primarily for velocity.
Jon K., where are you in Calif.? I live near Ventura.
04-07-2006, 04:39 PM
The Marbles are a good sight, especially if you get a longer stem, to reach out to 500. I like them on the Lever for short range and mid range.
BTW, the New Style Shaver Soule LR w/Hadley eyecup from BACO is $345, not as pricey as others. I just got mine Wednesday. I put it on and went to the range Thursday. This sight is a great value. The new style sight parts are supposed to be all US made, at one time they were modified Italian parts. Comparing prices others are around $475-up. I paid $485 for my Baldwin LR Soule.
Do you make it to Ojai to shoot? The Range is actual in Rose Valley(Ojai Valley Gun Club) I haven't been there in a while, but it is one of my favorite ranges. Except it snows up there sometimes and you could get stuck up there.
I am in Lake Elsinore, and shoot at most of the local silhoutte matches(although I don't shoot Hi Power). I don't travel to shoot anymore. I recently retired and am trying to learn to live on less.
04-08-2006, 08:01 AM
Jon, Ojai is my home range. I live on Highway 33 north of Ventura so it is about a 40 minute drive up the mountain for me. Nice drive and nice range! You are in a growing area I guess. I lived in San Berdoo 20 years ago and I used to go out to a range a little north and east of Redlands I think. I didn't shoot matches in those days.
I will get the Marbles sight today. A friend of mine added it to an order he made and it came in yesterday. I am sure I will have to get a longer stem.
I cannot believe how well I can shoot with the peep sight and globe sight combination. I used the Redfield receiver sight and the aperture in the globe and a round bull the other day. I don't think you give much away to a scope with that combo. I haven't shot that good with iron sights since I was 19 which hasn't been for longer than I care to think about!
04-09-2006, 10:13 PM
Been several days since I viewed anything and just found this thread. Thought I'd drop my $0.02 worth and offer a low cost alternative.
Look at a "Winchester Tang Peep" (http://www.jeffsoutfitters.com/store.aspx?panel=3&productid=98&categoryid=67) at Jeff's Outdoors. I have a sight almost identical on my '94. The only difference I find is that my is knurled the full length of the vertical barrel surrounding the staff. The only drawback is there are no markings on the staff, so repeatability is an issue unless you mark the staff yourself.
:-D but, hey, the price is right!
04-11-2006, 06:44 AM
Griff, I bookmarked that site. I have the Marbles now so my sight needs are met for the time being. But the price is right!
There was a little slide last week on the road up the mountain to the range. Caltrans first thought they would have it cleared in a day. Now it is going to be 2 or 3 weeks. The stuff keeps coming down as fast as they move it away. Long range silhouette was canceled because of rain and now our cowboy shoot ain't gonna happen because of the road closure.
04-11-2006, 05:52 PM
Trailblazer, is that the West End Gun Club?
04-12-2006, 06:05 AM
Griff, it is the Ojai Valley Gun Club. The range is in Rose Valley- in the Los Padres NF north of Ventura and Ojai just off HWY 33. We are a little north and west of West End.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.1 Copyright © 2013 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.