New ML

[jack19512]

I am going to be purchasing me a new 50 cal. ML and wanted to know if someone can tell me what rate of twist I should look for in order to shoot round balls accurately. Thanks

[docone31]

I got the Cabelas Hawken Wannabe. It has a 1-48 twist, and it is a tack driver with balls, or R.E.A.L.s. It is a joy to fire.

[frontier gander]

1:66 or slower. 1:48 does pretty good too but if you want a strict round ball shooter that 1:66 or 1:70 twist is where you need to look.

[mooman76]

Like posted previously 1/48 will shoot accurately with the option of conicals but if you know for sure you want strictly RB go with a 1/66 or even slower.

[jack19512]

Thanks to all, I appreciate it.

[northmn]

Rate of twist at 1-48 or above is not as important as type of rifling. Mostly the slower twists have a deeper groove round ball rifling. Many of the modern production repos have a comprimise twist and depth for both slugs and RB's. I do admit that the comprimise barrels have been known to shoot very well but may require some load development. The 1-48's are noted to be accurate with a narrower range of loads, but can be very accurate. Like the others I would recommend a RB barrel with a slower twist.

Northmn

[jack19512]

I got this today. It is a Lyman Great Plains rifle. It has a 1 in 60" twist. I don't know anything about this brand rifle so if anyone has any experience with them I would like to hear, good or bad. The pic I took really sucks. :(

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/DCP01479.jpg

[docone31]

Thats a winner.
Browned furniture, original type sights. Heard good things about them.
Enjoy it. Clean with soap and water, Olive oil it when not useing it.
It is fairly close to the original. Good drop of the stock. My Cables is a little flatter on drop.

[mooman76]

Lyman used to put out a really good out of the box ML. I don't know if they still do or not, is it new or used? I have a Cabelas Hawkins with a 58 and 50 barrel interchangable. I've been told that it was made by Lyman or at least it was back then with Cabelas name put on it. It looks like a Lyman and shoot pretty darn good. I've had no problems since I bought it used 16 years ago. I haven't shot it in awhile but been thinking of getting out with the primmer situation being what it is. It should shoot well for you.

[Gray Fox]

I've had a .54 Great Plains Rifle for close to 20 years. The max load is listed as 90 grains of 2F, but I shoot the same charge of Pyrodex RS with a .530 230 grain round ball (I know, boo--hiss). That is a very accurate hunting load. With 60 grains of the same powder it is a real tack driver in a shooting match. I have split a ball on an ax blade and cut a playing card in half edgewise with that load---a few years back before I went to trifocals. It's one of the most naturally balanced rifles to carry on a day's woods walking other than a '92 clone.

[405]

Pretty good guns. I built one from a kit something like 20 yrs ago. Didn't have it long but it shot RBs very well. I think you'll like the 60" twist. If I remember correctly the appearance and overall dimensions were fairly close to "original" type Plains or Hawken rifles. The looks kinda reminded me of the "Santa Fe" Hawken from the 70s distributed by Western Arms... still have one of those. The lock on the Lyman I think is a coil main spring type (correct me if wrong)??- something TC and many of the Italianos use. Not original period design but work very well- usually fast and durable. Also, if I remember right it may take some break in. Sometimes those type bores slowly get better the more they are shot until they smooth out. You could even lap it a little with a mild compound or JBs to help speed the process.

[mooman76]

Yes there is a slight break in period but that's the fun part!

[jack19512]

is it new or used?









It's brand new. :-D

[jack19512]

I checked on molds and found that there are two Lee molds listed for the .54 caliber at Midway. A .530 and a .535. Not wanting to have to buy two molds of those of you that shoot the .54 cal. which do you think would work best? Thanks

[Flinchrock]

I checked on molds and found that there are two Lee molds listed for the .54 caliber at Midway. A .530 and a .535. Not wanting to have to buy two molds of those of you that shoot the .54 cal. which do you think would work best? Thanks

Get a box of storebought .530's and .535's, shoot up all of both boxes. You will then know more than any of us can tell you about Your rifle. But I would bet it will like 80 gr 2f, pillow ticking,and a .535 ball. I use ballistol and water 5-1 for patch lube, but every one and their aunts 10th cousin 4 times removed has a different lube preference.

[FL-Flinter]

The Lyman bores are actually metric but it doesn't matter; go with the 0.535" balls and a 0.014" to 0.018" thick patch. For hunting a good starting place with the load would be 80gr of 2F (FF) black powder.

[RugerFan]

Lyman used to put out a really good out of the box ML. I don't know if they still do or not, is it new or used? I have a Cabelas Hawkins with a 58 and 50 barrel interchangable. I've been told that it was made by Lyman or at least it was back then with Cabelas name put on it. It looks like a Lyman and shoot pretty darn good.

As I recall, Lyman doesn't make their own MLs (or at least not the GPRs and similar hawken types). Lyman guns are manufactured by an Italian firm called Investarms.

I have a Lyman .50 cal GPR that is a dream to shoot with .490" patched RBs.

[jack19512]

Get a box of storebought .530's and .535's, shoot up all of both boxes.







Well, that's an OK idea but if I did that for the cost of the round balls I would be better off just buying both molds and be done with it.

[Maven]

jack19512, As others have indicated, you've got yourself a fine rifle. (I bought one last year as well and it is very accurate.) Generally, Lyman/Investarms (the importer & manufacturer, resp.) recommends an even numbered ball diameter for their rifles, e.g., .490" for the .50cal. and .530" for the .54cal., but as suggested, you may also want to try .535" RB's. Btw, I've been using .020" patches (.018" compressed) and FFFg with my .50cal. rifles. Hope this helps!

[Flinchrock]

Well, that's an OK idea but if I did that for the cost of the round balls I would be better off just buying both molds and be done with it.

Point was, we don't know for sure what's gonna work best in your rifle, you need to try both sizes. All we can do is suggest what has worked for us, which I did.
Buy both molds,,,then you can have a used lee mold to sell later.

[jack19512]

Point was, we don't know for sure what's gonna work best in your rifle, you need to try both sizes. All we can do is suggest what has worked for us, which I did.
Buy both molds,,,then you can have a used lee mold to sell later.







Well, no the point was to try and keep from having to buy two molds. I've already done that with a .50 caliber ML of mine. I'm only going to be using this ML for deer hunting, no shooting matches or anything like that. I know each firearm is different but for anyone that has/had any experience with this particular rifle what has worked for them will probably work for me. Your opinion "But I would bet it will like 80 gr 2f, pillow ticking,and a .535 ball" is very much appreciated and this is what I will try first. If this doesn't work then I will go to plan B. Thanks :drinks:

[Flinchrock]

Well, no the point was to try and keep from having to buy two molds. I've already done that with a .50 caliber ML of mine. I'm only going to be using this ML for deer hunting, no shooting matches or anything like that. I know each firearm is different but for anyone that has/had any experience with this particular rifle what has worked for them will probably work for me. Your opinion "But I would bet it will like 80 gr 2f, pillow ticking,and a .535 ball" is very much appreciated and this is what I will try first. If this doesn't work then I will go to plan B. Thanks :drinks:

Ok,,,then for a hunting load I would suggest 90gr 2f, patch lubed with TOW mink oil, I also use a dry feltwad under the greased prb, seems to enhance accuracy a little and keeps grease out of the powder. This load blows cloverleafs for me at 50 yds but it is better to wet swab between shots, the ballistol lube I can get 25-30 shots but I personally don't care for any "wet" lube that may be in the bore all day when hunting.

Good luck and have fun. BTW 90gr 2f under .54 prb gonna kill most anything it hits.

[Gray Fox]

My GPR likes a .530 ball and the Wonder Lubed pillow ticking patches that T/C sells. Patches don't have to be round, however, so you could visit a fabric store and buy some pillow ticking, wash it to get the sizing out of it, then cut it into 1" wide strips. This lets you try a variety of lubes. You simply unroll about 2" of your lubed roll of patch, start the ball with your ball starter, then cut off the patch roll at the barrel with your trusty patch knife. This is much cheaper than buying patches.

[mooman76]

I'd suggest the .530 when in doubt. You can always use a thicker patch but you are limited if the 535 turns out to be tight trying to find a good thin patch that will work. Unless you want supreme accuracy it should still very good with either ball.

[mooman76]

I just reread your post and believe even more you should get the .530. You are not shoot in matchs and are using for deer hunting. If you have to do a follow up shot reloading with a realy tight fitting ball will take longer. Not allot longer but may take long enough to cost you a second shot.

[Flinchrock]

I just reread your post and believe even more you should get the .530. You are not shoot in matchs and are using for deer hunting. If you have to do a follow up shot reloading with a realy tight fitting ball will take longer. Not allot longer but may take long enough to cost you a second shot.

I just got one question,,,yer shootin' a single shot front stuffer, and yer lookin' for a "quick follow up shot"??? When hunting, I load from the pouch and horn and then go look for my game, if it hasn't dropped where it stood,,,ya stand less chance of having it run into the next county from a marginal hit if you take yer time chasing it. If it is a good hit ya don't to reload, or chase it!

Do as thou wilt.

[mooman76]

Yes in a ideal world you don't need a follow up shot and yes it is unlikely you will get one but on the slight chance that you do need or get one, it would be nice to do quickly. I don't carry a pouch and horn in the field, I use speed loades to cut down on extra gear.

[jack19512]

Now the problem is in finding a mold. I usually order all of my stuff from Midway but they show both of the Lee molds out of stock. I would have never thought getting a mold would have ever been a problem. :(

[Hanshi]

Quick second shots don't happen with muzzleloaders but there's another thing to consider. A too tight patch/ball combo can be hard going down. When you're already excited the last thing you want is a broken rod with a ball half way down the bore. It can happen a lot easier than you would think. I don't shoot matches, either. I do hunt and want a combination that seats with moderate pressure and doesn't stick. With that in mind, I use .440 in the .45, .490 in the .50 and .530 in the .54. With the smaller ball you can use a good, thick patch and still load easily. I still get one hole, 5 shot accuracy at 50+ yards, too. With a larger ball you're stuck (pun intended) with having to use a thinner patch and no guarantee of improved accuracy.

[mooman76]

Quick second shots don't happen with muzzleloaders but there's another thing to consider. A too tight patch/ball combo can be hard going down. When you're already excited the last thing you want is a broken rod with a ball half way down the bore. It can happen a lot easier than you would think. I don't shoot matches, either. I do hunt and want a combination that seats with moderate pressure and doesn't stick. With that in mind, I use .440 in the .45, .490 in the .50 and .530 in the .54. With the smaller ball you can use a good, thick patch and still load easily. I still get one hole, 5 shot accuracy at 50+ yards, too. With a larger ball you're stuck (pun intended) with having to use a thinner patch and no guarantee of improved accuracy.

That kind of reminds me of a funny story. A friend I had in the ML club I used to belong too went out durring ML season. When he was getting ready to load he had descovered he forgot his ball starter. He managed to get his ball started but it only went in a short ways because it was so tight and couldn't get it in any farther so he looked around for something to help get it in. He tried some sticks but the green ones weren't stiff enough and would bend and the dried ones were too brittle. He then desided to use a rock to drive it in with his rod. He couldn'tget it at first but it finnally started moving so he started grinning thinking how clever he was until he looked down and realized his rod had splintered and was going around the ball instead of pushing it in, so now he has a ball he can't get in and a rod he can't get out!

[waksupi]

And THAT, my friends, is why you don't use a load requiring a short starter in a hunting rifle. Leave those to the bench rest shooters.

[jack19512]

Now that some good points have been brought out I have to admit that I am getting a little unsure which size to get. Maybe I should start with the .530 and if it doesn't work out go for the .535, just how snug do I want the ball/patch to barrel fit to be? Sure don't want to get a ball stuck. I assume it's a job to get a stuck ball out of this type rifle. :cry:

[Flinchrock]

Now that some good points have been brought out I have to admit that I am getting a little unsure which size to get. Maybe I should start with the .530 and if it doesn't work out go for the .535, just how snug do I want the ball/patch to barrel fit to be? Sure don't want to get a ball stuck. I assume it's a job to get a stuck ball out of this type rifle. :cry:

Yes,,,it can be a job. co2 dischargers work pretty good, but it's better to avoid getting a ball stuck in the first place. I wish you were local to me, I would give you a handfull of both sizes to try.

[jack19512]

I wish you were local to me, I would give you a handfull of both sizes to try.







Thanks, I appreciate the thought. Since everyone seems to be out of the molds at this time I thought I would just go ahead and order me some round balls. I checked two places, Midway and Midsouth. At both places the shipping would be about as much as the round balls cost so I guess I will just wait until I can get a mold.

I did some research on the Lyman GPR and found very good reviews posted. Also found the purchase price at different places to vary quite a bit. They have the assembled rifle and the kit. Mine was the assembled rifle. Highest price I found was $654.95. I paid $329.95 for mine not including tax. I didn't find any cheaper price than I paid but I'm sure it's out there. :)

[Flinchrock]

You got a good deal, and they are a good rifle.

[jack19512]

I got to shoot my new ML today. Had a good day shooting, wish I could brag about how well I did but it just wasn't there. I am having to file down the front sight in order to raise the point of impact up some. It's shooting way low at 25 and 50 yards.

I did find some Speer .535 round balls and some CCI #11 caps. I didn't have any pillow ticking so for patches I used an old cotton T-shirt and an old polyester shirt. The polyester shirt wasn't as thick as the cotton T-shirt so the balls loaded much easier. I used bore butter for lube.

I swabbed the bore after every shot with dry patches and although I almost have the elevation problem fixed my groups just aren't there. I was using #11 CCI caps and used 70 grains of triple se7en powder.

It seems I was also having some inconsistent ignition problems. Most of the time the charge went off as it should but for me anyway there were too many times I would pull the trigger and get that snap...boom shot. The rifle is fun to shoot but if anyone has any input as to why the accuracy isn't there I would appreciate it. Also, just how tight do I want my patch&boolit to barrel fit to be?

With the polyester the fit was snug but not overly tight and easy to load, but the cotton T-shirt was very tight and would try and bend my rod a little when loading. I went to Walmart and picked me up some pillow ticking which I will try next time out, hopefully tomorrow if it isn't raining.

[docone31]

I use either Remington caps, or CCI #11 Magnum caps. No issues with hangfires so far.
However, on my wife's rifle, that is all we had.
I shortened the threads on the nipple. I cut about 3 courses off, and ran a reamer in the exit hole of the nipple.
That did it.
You might look into that, it worked for me.

[waksupi]

I use either Remington caps, or CCI #11 Magnum caps. No issues with hangfires so far.
However, on my wife's rifle, that is all we had.
I shortened the threads on the nipple. I cut about 3 courses off, and ran a reamer in the exit hole of the nipple.
That did it.
You might look into that, it worked for me.

Doc, I got to go to work, but I hope someone tells you why this is a bad thing today. Replace that nipple. You have created a dangerous rifle.

[405]

There should be plenty-o-fire using regular caps and the regular nipple. If you're swabbing between shots be sure to get all the junk out of the breech area of the bore. That hang fire is likely junk being forced down around ignition/nipple area in the bore. There is a balancing act among cleaning between shots, consistent loading pressure, accuracy, etc. Try to find a balance between ball size and patching thickness. Wash and dry the pillow ticking to loosen it up a little and remove sizing. If your other thick patch material is a little tight with the .535 ball.... then the unwashed ticking may be too tight with that larger ball size.... just have to experiment a little to find best fit between the patch and ball.

I'd try 50 gr blackpowder, .530 ball and pillow ticking patch. Another accuracy trick to try would be to add a felt wad on top of powder and try a smidge of Ballistol and water to dampen the patch. Anyway, good luck.

[docone31]

On her rifle, the cleanout screw projected almost into the nipple opening in the bolster. I cut that back so it cleared the threads of the nipple. On the nipple, the bottom was almost on the outer side of the hole in the bolster. The flame front of the primer had no place to go. Untill I did that, I would primer fire, and the flame would bypass the primer hole! I got no pressure at all out of the barrel. This is with an empty chamber.
My Hawken Wannabe on the other hand clearly fires through the empty chamber. Once I shortened the nipple, slightly, I got ignition.
I indeed understand what you are getting at! I am not a big one for suprises, especially at the range. A random helicopter ride to the hospital is not what I consider a good day.
We had a person at the range get an helicopter ride the week before. He had loaded his 30-30 with Red Dot! I mean full charge! Rifle is toast, and he was severely injured.
Not my idea of a good day.
The inner diameter of the bolster is threaded 10/32. The nipple projected almost to the opposite wall. Useing a spacer would not have kept anymore threads in the bolster. My reamer fit in the hole of the nipple also. I just used it to clean out any "feathers' from the drilling process. I did not open up the hole much, if any. I got feathers out of the nipple fire hole.
Now, it works.

[405]

docone31,
Good point about the nipple enchroachment into the flash channel in the drum. If it goes in too far that would certainly reduce ignition reliability. A factory drum/nipple set up should be right but it wouldn't hurt to check that out.

[jack19512]

The cotton t-shirt measured .019, the polyester shirt measured .010, and the washed pillow ticking measures .017 so the fit using the pillow ticking will be between the cotton t-shirt and the polyester shirt, the fit with the cotton t-shirt was actually too tight(I think) so maybe it will be alright with the pillow ticking.

I wasn't able to purchase any of the .530 round balls because they were out of them but did purchase some magnum caps to try. I think that maybe I shot too many times without actually cleaning the barrel and that may have contributed to the loss of accuracy but I am not sure. I could even try say 3 shots without swabbing the bore to see how that works.

[jack19512]

For me it just goes from bad to worse. I got to shoot some more and the magnum caps didn't seem to solve my ignition problem. Well it happened to me today, you know the dreaded stuck ball in the barrel. I had only got to shoot about 4 times when I did what I knew I shouldn't. My mind must have been on something else because I loaded a ball and had not realized I forgot to put the powder in.

With the accuracy problems I am already dealing with this was just about too much for me. I didn't have a bullet puller, never ever saw a puller, and had no idea where to get one at least where I live. So I spent the day making a puller and I was finally successful at getting the bullet out. It was very tight in the bore. I guess tomorrow is another day. :roll:

[docone31]

I loaded a dud on the last hour of the range two weeks ago.
Like total DUH! on my part.
I unscrewed the cleanout screw, poured in fffg, closed the screw, capped and fired. Poured in more, and fired again. I never felt the load leave the barrel. I went home and tried to pull it. I felt steel, and not lead. I finally took the barrel out and poured hot water into it. Water streamed out the nipple. I guess it fired with fffg and I did not notice it.
There is a trick with these front stuffers sometimes. My paying attention is one of them.
I had such a great day up to that point.
Wife got to fire the Walker though. She did good! POI at 100yds! Try that with a 9mm sometime.
With ignition issues, check the nipple encroachment. That is a common issue with some rifles.
One way I check, is to fire an empty chamber. If a lot of primer fire goes around the nipple, it is not getting through. If some gets by the nipple, and some exits the barrel, that works well with mine. I also use Pyrodex and it has a reputation of FTF. So far, with me, so good.
Probably next time at the range.
Your ramrod threads should be 10/32. A #10 sheetrock screw will fit in the threads without damageing it. That is how I made an emergency ball puller once. I cut the head off a sheet rock screw, and screwed it into the ramrod, leaving the point going forward. Worked really well. When I finally got a ball puller, the 10/32 threads went right into the socket without showing any thread damage.
Another thing you might look at, is the cleanout screw. On my wife's rifle, it actually jammed on the nipple. That was no good. I replaced it with a grade 8 allen head pan head screw. Looks good now. On my Hawken wannabe, I also replaced the clean out screw with a pan head. Easier to put back in, and easier to find when I drop it.

[405]

Seems like you've had a whole lot thrown at you. Take a step back to square one maybe.

1) anyone who has shot a lot of ML or been around it long enough will seat a ball/bullet on top of empty bore. No worries! With a fouled bore and a tight fitting patched ball, using a screw type ball puller can be difficult and sometimes impossible. Done it more than once :) An alternative is to shoot it out. Just take a nipple wrench and all possibles to the range. Remove nipple. Dribble a grain or two of 4F or 3F powder into the drum. Replace nipple. Point downrange and pop.

2) one of the possibles to get ahold of (or make) is a square faced breech scraper. You can put that on cleaning rod and scrape the gunk out of the breech plug area. Follow up with large patch on looped jag to clean the rest of the gunk out of the breech area. With the large patch you can put some of the patch forward of the jag so as to reach that troublesome back end of the bore. Also that loop will allow turning of the rod and cleaning patch for a better cleaning. I still think one of the hang fire/miss fire problems is gunk build up at the breech/drum/nipple area preventing fire from reaching the charge. docone31 brought up a good point about checking the clearance in the flash channel. Your gun should have a snail type with a clean out screw that should allow inspection of the channel with the nipple in place?? If not then just see if the nipple extends too far into the channel by a little measurement and gauging. Otherwise..... if the channel is clear, the nipple is clear, there is dry powder (when loaded) at or in the drum channel..... there are really no other reasons for a hang/miss fire with a regular #11 cap.

[docone31]

405, Good points!!!
When I inspected the nipple on the FTF special, it also had some crud that would move and block the exit hole. Not a lot, but it would not fire out, or clean out with a pick. That took hot soapy water.
I just checked my wife's front stuffer. I had cleaned the rifle, and waxed it. Wouldn't you know, some of the wax was on the nipple and untill I cleaned it off, no fire!
Not like loading a cartridge is it?
I have always had a lot of respect for the knowlege, and just the ease of handling of those folks with front stuffers.
They earned it for sure.

[jack19512]

If a lot of primer fire goes around the nipple, it is not getting through.






I don't know how much is acceptable and how much is not but I noticed today that there was a lot of primer smoke on the outside of the nipple.

[jack19512]

An alternative is to shoot it out. Just take a nipple wrench and all possibles to the range. Remove nipple. Dribble a grain or two of 4F or 3F powder into the drum. Replace nipple. Point downrange and pop.







I took the nipple out and was going to try that but I was able to get such a tiny amount of powder in there that I didn't think it would work, guess I should have tried anyway it's not like I had anything to lose by trying.

[405]

Ya, it doesn't take much. The 4F or 3F helps. Put a little in, tap gun to settle down, put a little more, tap... and so on until it won't take more. Replace nipple and pop.

As far as the cleaning routine. Here's what I've always done and it's always worked!

Didn't pursue that but I think that gun should have a hooked (patent) breech? If so, when home take barrel out of gun. Remove nipple. Put hot soapy water in tub or large coffee can. Put breech in tub. With flimsy type material, like tee shirt strips, in loop jag, pump rod up and down while moving toward muzzle. Suction will draw hot water up toward muzzle. This will completely clean and heat barrel. Repeat process with clean hot water. Immediately drain bore. Begin running dry patches in bore. Should take about three until they come out dry. The barrel should still be hot. Put very small squirt of light lube like WD40 in muzzle and run dry patch to apply light coat of lube on the entire inside of bore. The heat will get rid of any remaining moisture and evaporate any excess lube. Clean nipple with hot soapy water, rinse and dry. Replace nipple. Replace barrel in stock... done.

At range, pop one cap with muzzle near dust on ground to check for clear flash channel. These steps will about absolutely insure that the first shot will positively fire with no hang fire. :)

[jack19512]

I had some success today. Got several shots real close to each other from 60 yards but the group would always get ruined by a flier. I am pretty sure my accuracy isn't there because of the inconsistent ignition and until I get this fixed I am just wasting powder, caps and round balls.

I can tell right off if it's going to be a good shot or not. Sometimes the shot will go off instantly like it is suppose to and sometimes it will go snap...bang with varying degrees of delay.

I brought the rifle home and gave it a real good cleaning and removed the nipple and tiny screw but really couldn't see anything wrong. I cleaned the nipple area real good and made sure there was no junk or whatever in the passage. It is possible there may have been something back farther in the passage as I couldn't see in there too good.

The magnum caps don't appear to make any difference with the ignition problem. I have the problem regardless of which caps I use. At lease I did have some success today. Now I know it is probably just my imagination but I honestly thought the rifle was shooting better today. I want to try some different caps but I have only been able to find CCI locally. I will be back at it again tomorrow weather permitting. :)

[Maven]

jack1952, It may be time to consider replacing the original nipple with a new one, particularly since you're getting hangfiring and a lot of smoke around the nipple from the cap (poor nipple - cap fit). Track of the Wolf has replacements if you tell them which rifle it's for. Btw, my Lyman GPR hasn't done this at all.

[mooman76]

I agree with Mavin. I like those Uncle mikes, I believe they are called hot shot nipples. They have always done good for me and cost about the same, maybe 1 dollar more. The inside funnels the fire for better ignition. One thing about BP if you have any bad shooting habits, it magnifies them because of the split second delay compared to smokeless. I think it has helped me concentrate more to improve my shooting.

[Dean D.]

One thing you might try, after you pour your powder down the barrel try tapping the barrel on the side a few times to settle the powder before you load your ball/boolit. Waksupi showed me this trick and it seems to help give a more consistant ignition on a flinter. Worth a try since you seem to have experienced varied ignitions.

[405]

Agree about nipple. You can sure try a different one. I too have used Uncle Mikes with good success. Just make sure to get the right one for the gun. Nipples aren't standardized to TC/ SAE. Likely metric for your gun. Also check for flush strike between recessed area in hammer and rim of nipple. The strike should be fairly well centered on the recessed face of the hammer and the orientation between the two should allow for a "flush" hit. Also, the cap should fit snugly all the way down onto the nipple to where the primer compound in the cap is against the rim of the nipple or nearly so. Since the cap doesn't form a swaged, gas sealing fit on the nipple (as in the case of a primer in a cartridge case) some blow by is expected and normal if snapping a cap on an uncharged gun. Of course there is a bunch of venting when firing with charge- usually enough to shred cap. That recess in hammer is designed to deflect the venting during firing.

As far as checking the flash channel in the drum (snail).... When cleaning you can take a pipe cleaner and maybe twist it in there. Or if you remove the clean-out screw you can take a thin wire or other item like a thin pipe cleaner and work it around all the way to the open bore. Since the flash channel between nipple and bore has to make a right angle, cleaning thru the nipple hole is problematic. Also, since the flash channel thru the drum has been drilled and tapped in a couple of places there is always the possiblity of a metal bur left after the process. By probing with a wire or other item you can feel for any obstruction.

But, sounds like shooting went better today and that is good news.

[cajun shooter]

The Lyman takes a metric nipple. T/C takes a 1/4 -28 The hot shot nipple is to prevent hammer bounce back on firing. I have one on my 50 T/C Hawken The difference in balls was meant to take up the difference in bbl size after several firings. A cloth patch such as pillow ticking will wear down the bore. Standard ball size in new 50 is .490 after several firings you start using the .495 Now this is in theory only as we all know that every bbl is it's own project. You might want to try some lube 1000 plus bore butter for your RB patches. It will stop that patch between firings. I'm taking the Hawken out this morning for a few down range shots. Later David

[Jeff H]

I have that same rifle in .50 caliber - Lyman Great Plains. It was spec'd as having 1:66 twist. I bough the kit in '86 or '87 and it came out beautifully. I shoot .495 balls with .010 patches lubed with TC wonder lube over 90 gr. Pyrodex RS and CCI #11 caps and could put three shots under 2" at 60 yards off-hand when I was shooting regularly. I replaced the wooden ram rod with a solid brass 3/8" rod with UM tips pinned onto the turned ends. Left the rod 1 1/2" proud to provide a little more grip when cleaning. It weighs in at a healthy 10 1/4 pounds and hangs steady as a rock. I have shot two deer with it at 112 yards and 125 yards. The balls hit right where I held and went clear through in both cases. In the accuracy department it is no slouch and has spoiled me to the point that I never really wanted a different gun, until recently when I found a H&R Huntsman .58, which I have always just wanted "just because I wanted it." Otherwise, I couldn't ask for more in a ML rifle with my GPR handy.

One "upgrade" I made was to go to the UM Hot-Shot nipple. For some reason the factory nipple didn't always fire but the UMs have never failed.

For a factory kit rifle, it sure has been a good one, especially with the accuracy I get. The .495s take a little effort to get down but I am not in a big hurry when I shoot and I can get them down with one long push if I stand on my toes. My Dad and my Brother both got factory-finished .54s after seeing mine and how well it shoots. They have had theirs for some twenty years now and have had no inclination to part with theirs either.

Jeff H

[jack19512]

I got to shoot some more today, good news is I didn't have any more inconsistent ignition. So hopefully that really good cleaning is what it needed. I hope so anyway. Bad news is the accuracy just isn't there. Here is a 3 shot group from 56 yards. Notice the perfect bullseye! Yea, I wish. Nothing but luck or by accident I'm sure. It's gonna have to get a lot better than this. :(

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/DCP01482.jpg

[jack19512]

I have one more question I hope someone can answer for me. This rifle has a 1 in 60 twist barrel, does this mean that it is suitable for round balls only? Thanks

[docone31]

The 1/66 twist should also be ok with the Lee R.E.A.L. casting.
That group looks like you are just not used to the slow hammer fall.

[jack19512]

That group looks like you are just not used to the slow hammer fall.








It would actually be nice if that was what the problem is. I took good aim and follow through, I was actually surprised at how bad the group was. I thought it would be much better since I didn't have the ignition problem.

[docone31]

You are talking an entire different school here!
Its gonna take time.
Easier now that you have ignition though.
One day you will dial it in.
I am going through the same thing with mine and I had good ignition.

[jack19512]

I just ordered me this to try since I can't get the round ball mold yet. I hope it works good.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=781597

[jack19512]

docone31

Thanks for the reply's. What do you use for lube? As of right now I have only tried Bore Butter. I got to thinking, the other day I actually had some fair shots as far as accuracy goes and was using the pillow ticking but switched back to the polyester because it loaded so much easier. Maybe I should try the pillow ticking again. I just didn't like it because with it the loading was so much more difficult.

[docone31]

I got one in .45, and .50. You are gonna like it.
I make my lube from 55% beeswax, 45% Olive oil. No fouling, easy clean up, should work with your twist.
It takes some thumping to engrave the rifleing. I suggest you bring a thumper with that one! As it seats in the bore, you can control how straight it goes in by angleing the whack! Once the top land seats, the short starter gets it going, and the ram rod finishes it.
I found them great to fire, and accurate. I use both WW, and Pure. Both do well.
You apply the lube as you get ready to load. Bring some old pants, your hands do get gooey!
That lube makes good balm also so no worries there.
I put my lube in a little container with a plastic top. I finger out some, roll it in the lands, get some more, roll it in.
I really like it.
I use 60gns of RS in both the .45, and .50. You will use between 25-65 gns. I might try 70gns. Try 60gns first though.

[mooman76]

I shot Lee reals in a 1-66 twist and they didn't shoot that great. Not real bad but I would get fliers. Good enough to get in the kill zone though and your's being a little tighter might do. Play with your loads and you should get it to shoot better plus it is new and not broke in yet. By playing with your loads I mean try different patches, lube and powder loads. You will get better shots with tighter loads. Maybe you can find a in between.

[Jeff H]

I shot Lee reals in a 1-66 twist and they didn't shoot that great. Not real bad but I would get fliers. Good enough to get in the kill zone though and your's being a little tighter might do. Play with your loads and you should get it to shoot better plus it is new and not broke in yet. By playing with your loads I mean try different patches, lube and powder loads. You will get better shots with tighter loads. Maybe you can find a in between.

Same experience here with the REALs. A friend gave me a coffee can full and insisted they were the best thing since peanut butter. I believe he was shooting a 1:48 twist too though and "minutue of rear-view mirror" on a junk car in the woods was the standard by which he judged. Not knocking on a fella who would cast a coffee can full of slugs for a friend, by the way. They were just OK in the 1:66 but not amazing.

The rest of your post sounds like I wrote it about my own GPL when I started shooting it. After messing around with patch thickness, ball size, lube type, charge weight, etc. I had a good hundred balls through it. I settled on the .495" ball and .010" patch, which loads a little hard but shoots extremely well. Not sure if that first hundred balls had a "break-in" effect with all the experimentation going on but it probably helped me get all my habits figured out - pour the charge, slap the side of the stock/barrel, lay a patch on, lay a ball on, short start the ball (4" starter) and make one long, steady push home until a a little "crunch" is sensed and then cap it. Some or all of that may be just superstition but maintaining the routine hasn't hurt anything. I use the set trigger when shooting as well and it helps a lot.

[jack19512]

After messing around with patch thickness, ball size, lube type, charge weight, etc. I had a good hundred balls through it.









It won't be long and I will be there. :) Kind of disappointed to hear about the lack of accuracy from the reals though. I was kind of counting on them in case the round balls don't work out for me. :(

[Maven]

jack19512, part of the problem with REAL's is how large they cast and thus, how well they fit your rifle, regardless of rate of twist. E.g., I had a .45cal. REAL that was very accurate in my T/C 1:48 twist bbl., but the two .50cal. ones I purchased last year for my Knight Bighorn shot pretty miserably because they were undersized.

Roundball loads: Pick one diameter roundball, e.g. .530", one patch thickness (I'd recommend .018" compressed; pillow ticking or pocket drill), and one lube to start with. Try 70grs. (volume) of FFg and place your target @ 50 yds. After you load the rifle, but before you cap it, dry patch the bore. Do the same after you fire it and maybe damp swab after every 3rd shot. You should see some very tight groups. If so, put the target @ 50 yds. If not, change only ONE component. Patch thickness would be my first choice, followed by RB diameter.

Barrel: Is the rifled bore rough? I.e., do dry patches snag in it when it's clean? Could it stand a bit of polishing with something like red auto compound followed by white compound on a tight patch? (Make sure you have a muzzle guard on your cleaning rod if you do this.) Hope this helps!

[405]

Sometimes it comes easy sometimes a little harder.
Agree about changing one variable at a time. Generally if the round balls won't shoot well then the short conicals may not either. Worth a try tho.??

Almost sounds like the many, many! folks who bought the Santa Fe Hawken then ran into problems. They were clearly marketed as .54 cal. In reality those guns were .53 caliber! Several shooters I know broke ramrods, stuck balls part way down, blurted choice foul words and so on until the word got out that the guns are really .53 cal. Everyone was trying to shoot .530 and .535 balls! Solution.... .520 ball. :shock:

I'd stay with the .017-.018 pillow ticking. That ride down the bore is a rigorous one and pillow ticking is very strong material and it is cotton. Cotton is the standard material for patching for good reason. It also helps to wash and dry the patch material before using- takes the stiffness out and makes it easier to load.

First variable I'd try would be a smaller ball.
Second variable would be powder charge. (No need for one grain increments!) Try maybe 20 grain increments like 40 gr, 60 gr, 80 gr.
Third variable would be lube and overpowder wad. My most accurate round ball shooting uses a lightly lubed felt wad (Felix lube, Maxi lube, TC 1000 lube or whatever as long as it is fairly stiff and won't migrate into the powder) over powder then a patch dampened with Ballistol and water mix.

I know that conicals will shoot well in some slow twist guns. Just have to see if they do! One word about conicals in MLs. I've had a long learning curve with some of this stuff. And it took a long time to understand this one.... bare conicals can lead a bore and slowly destroy accuracy. If it happens, cleaning the lead out of a conventional ML can be a pain! Just something to watch out for when you shoot them.

[docone31]

My wife's .45 Traditions rifle had a nasty bore. Nasty. Rust, feathers, a dry patch came out frayed.
I took a patch of pillow ticking, and everyone is correct, washing it first makes a difference! I took the patch and smeared some valve lapping compound instead of bore lube. I rammed it down, fired it off with 60gns of RS. I did it five times. Now, the ball goes in smoothly, the bore is shiney, and accuracy really improved!
A side note.
I did not experience any crud on the bore after lapping compound that did not wash off easily when cleaning.
I fires several more balls through the bore after lapping it.
It worked for me.

[mooman76]

I went through my closet and got some old shirts of different thicknesses and types and cut into patches for testing.

[jack19512]

I got to do some more shooting today and I am very pleased. I don't know if it will continue or not, will just have to see. It almost started out bad though. My first load I almost loaded a ball without the powder but caught myself. First shot of the day went snap...boom but it only happened once. The rest of the shots went off fine. I did fire a cap off before shooting and it showed the cap area was clear.

I went back to the pillow ticking even though they load very hard. I started out with 70 grains of powder and fired three shots labeled 1, 2, and 3 with the powder charge marked in. Then moved up to 80 grains of powder and labeled them 4, 5, and 6 with the powder charge. Then finally shot 90 grains of powder and labeled them 7, 8, and 9 with the powder charge.

You can't read the caliper but the 90 grains of powder which were 7, 8, and 9 was less than 1 1/2 inches. From 56 yards. Not too bad for me. :-D I don't have any other lube besides the bore butter to try yet. I have a lot of the front sight filed down already, I would guess half of it and you can see how far the bullet has to come up to hit point of aim which is the bullseye.

I'm afraid by the time I get it to hit point of aim I'm not gonna have any front sight left. I wish I would have used a new target for each of the powder tests because you probably can't make out much on the target but at least I know what took place.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/DCP01483.jpg

[mooman76]

See, it's coming allong nicely. Crisco is a fair lube if you want to try something else. I've never been big on bore butter myself. I do use it though from time to time. I still like the old fashion spit. It's common for the first shot to hesitate abit even after firing one cap. You have any cleaning/ oil to burn off. That's why I fire at least two. Also your point of aif changes after the first fouling shot. You shouldn't have to shoot that heavy of loads unless you want to. Usually arounf 50-60 grains shoot fine. It should shoot even better as you work the loads and it gets broke in more.

[docone31]

Yeah, I run 60gns most times. Once or twice, I pop 80gns. Not too bad on the shoulder, definate difference in performance.
60gns should fire well.

[jack19512]

Crisco is a fair lube if you want to try something else.








I thought about that, using Crisco. I have some lard that I rendered myself, I wonder how it would work. My new Lee real bullet mold is suppose to be here tomorrow so I will be casting some of them and trying out another style bullet soon.

[jack19512]

I got the Lee REAL mold today and cast some up. Not having used the 54 cal. ML before and the Lee REAL bullet I could use any suggestions as far as lube, powder or anything anyone wants to add. The bullet is the 380 grain. Thanks

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/DCP01484.jpg

[Old Ironsights]

With the REAL almost any BP lube works OK, but it almost has to be put on just before loading.

Because of the tapered shape, they are hard to pan lube, and ditto for injection type lubers.

Of course, you could always listen to Dick Lee and TL them in LLA, but most BP shooters eschew that.

Oddly enough, Stumpy's Moose Snot (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=198314&postcount=22) patch lube works pretty well as a boolit lube if you spray on a couple of coats and let it dry...

[mooman76]

Any lube not petrolium based should work to a degree. I've heard of someone using chicken fat. Lard should work as good as crisco.

[docone31]

With my R.E.A.L.s, I use 55% beeswax, 45% Olive oil. If I do not have olive oil, I use corn oil.
No complaints yet.
Slippery though.

[jack19512]

jack19512, part of the problem with REAL's is how large they cast and thus, how well they fit your rifle, regardless of rate of twist. E.g., I had a .45cal. REAL that was very accurate in my T/C 1:48 twist bbl., but the two .50cal. ones I purchased last year for my Knight Bighorn shot pretty miserably because they were undersized.







I was able to get a break from the rain today and try my Lee Real bullets. Accuracy was OK but nothing to brag about. I'm not sure how tight they are suppose to fit in the bore but I suspect they are undersized.

They were quite easily pushed down the bore. The rain clouds started moving in after my 4th shot and I got in too big of a hurry and loaded a bullet without the powder again :oops: but luckily about a week ago I ordered me a bullet puller and it worked like a charm. :-D

Midway has an expected arrival date of June 1st for the 54 cal. round ball molds so hopefully I will be able to get one shortly. I suspect I will have to lap my Lee REAL mold though.

[docone31]

I got one in the bore without any powder.
I removed the cleanout screw, tamped in some Pyrodex P, fired, loaded again with more, and got it out. I did not know I had it out! I still thought I had a R.E.A.L. in the bore!
I went home, got out my bullet puller, and it sounded like it was hitting steel.
Ran some hot water in the barrel, wadding up some cloth and useing it as a plunger. I got action through the nipple so I guess it is gone.
I make my lube with Beeswax, Olive oil, and Crisco to stiffen. I rub the lube on for each shot.
So far, so good. My R.E.A.L.s are a snug start, but go in easily.
It might be your barrel needs some breaking in. Front stuffing is not like punching paper on the 100yd line. I doubt I can fire fast enough to warm up the barrel!
You could try casting a few up with a machine screw nut on the sprue and try the lapping trick. Might make them a little bigger without messing them up.
I like the R.E.A.L.s. Patch and ball is simpler though.

[Maven]

jack19512, Did the patched ball without powder trick the other day myself, but was able to add enough powder to the drum to shoot them out. As for the REAL's, I paper patched the heavier .50cal. one and got better accuracy, but the improvement wasn't enough to suit me: sold both molds. For the Knight Bighorn* at least, the accuracy champs are still the T/C & Lyman Maxi-Balls, followed by .490" RB's with a .010" patch.


*1:28" twist. Btw, some MMP sabots (www.mmpsabots.com), e.g., those for .429" - .430" bullets are very accurate with my RCBS 250-K SWC boolits and may be worth considering.

[jack19512]

I got to do some more shooting between rain showers and I think I am finally getting this rifle dialed in. I think for now I will give up on the R.E.A.L bullets and just concentrate on the round balls.

I had to keep filing down the front sight and finally started hitting the bullseye. My last 4 shots were right on the mark, really decent group. I have gone from 60 grains of powder to 90 grains of powder and then back down again.

I think if the velocity is OK with the 60 grains I will stay there. That is what I used to shoot the real good group with. I keep meaning to take my chronograph with me but keep forgetting.

I am sighting this rifle in at 60 yards as far as filing down the front sight goes because I don't think I would get a shot at a deer from far away anyway. I have the rear sight bottomed all the way and could raise it if I had to.

I only have 4 round balls left from the 100 pack I bought so I really need to get me a mold soon or I will have to buy more bullets. :)