Pyrodex pellets in C&B revolver???

[JIMinPHX]

I was about out of black powder & having a hard time finding more locally when I stumbled upon some Pyrodex pellets that claimed to be made specifically for .44 & .45 cal revolvers. They were a bit pricey at $15/100, but I figured what the hay. It's not like I shoot 50 of these things in a sitting & besides, this seems to be the only game in town at the moment, so I bought a can.

I opened it up & found that the pellets had a hole bored through the center of them. I know that air space is a no-no for black powder, but I figured that Pyrodex may be different, so I started reading the instructions.

The instructions said to load the pellet, then load a wonder wad, then load the ball & seat it gently, being careful not to crush the pellet. Well I tried that, & the ball was not far enough down to let the cylinder spin. The gun was a common garden variety Colt 1851 Navy clone from the Pietta Brothers. It has always done fine with 30-grain charges of black (which these pellets are supposed to duplicate). I don't think that the gun was made to any unusual dimensions. I used the same brand of wad that the instructions recommended, so I don't think they were too thick. I think that the pellets were just a bit long. I shaved the noses off my balls as the cylinder rotated towards the hammer station. This seemed kind of brutal on the gun's indexing hand, so I helped it along by turning the cylinder with my fingers to take the load off the hand. It was not easy, but I got it done. I topped the balls off with a little wonder lube around the edges, just because I always do. I loaded up 5 shots.

The recoil was a bit more than I had remembered 30 grains of black or Pyrodex P giving me. The bang seemed a little more crisp than normal too. I didn't have a chrony with me, but I'm going to guess that the balls were traveling at a pretty good clip. Accuracy was good. I was able to hit water bottles at 75 yards more often than not.

I loaded up again, this time, I crushed the pellets a little so that I would not need to shave the nose off the balls. The balls seated well below flush. I didn't measure, but I would guess that they were down about 1/8", maybe even a little better. The recoil, sound & accuracy were indistinguishable from the first batch.

I took the gun home & cleaned it as I normally would. The barrel was slightly lead fouled, but not bad. I normally get no lead fouling in that gun with granular powders. The gun still felt tight, so I don't think that I had any gross overpressure conditions.

Has anyone else tried these pellets? If so, what were your experiences with them? Did you like them, or did you think that they were junk?

[defib]

How many grains are the pellets. most of the ones i have seen are 50 grains and for single shot pistols. I would be concerned as that is a pretty hefty load for cap and ball. there is a place in the west valley that sells holy black but you have to call ahead. i'll try to find out for you where they are ( i cant remember ) and post it for you.

[JIMinPHX]

The pellets I have claim to be 30-gr eq & are supposed to be specifically for C&B revolvers.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Try giving this guy a call.

I need to make a run up there and pick some up but it looks like he ships Black Powder.

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/

[Old Ironsights]

Never liked them. The little BP patch on the base is supposed to help the #11 set it off, but problems arise when the ball is seated if care isn't taken to make sure the pellet doesn't crush.

[Gerry N.]

Are you loading round balls or conicals?

You say your revolver is a Navy model? Navy caliber is .36, Army caliber is .44.

Gerry N.

[Red River Rick]

I shaved the noses off my balls as the cylinder rotated towards the hammer station.

Pretty self explanitory!


RRR

[stubshaft]

The holemakes it easier to remove from the packaging. Just insert a pipe cleaner into it an it will come out.

[JIMinPHX]

The gun is a .44 cal open top with an engraving of a ship on the cylinder. The box it came in (new) said - 1851 Navy Revolver .44Cal. Perc. 7-1/2". It also said F.lli Pietta, which is Italian for Pietta Briothers. The band name on the box was Traditions.

The Pyrodex pellets were packaged loose in a can with a piece of foam rubber over the top. I think that the hole in the center is so that the spark from the cap gets better access to more of the pellet.

& as Rick noted, Yes I am using .454" diameter, roughly 140-grain, pure lead balls, not conicals.

I saw some regular Pyrodex P powder at Bass Pro Shop today. They also had a bunch of Goex, but it wasn't real Goex. It was some synthetic stuff that is now being marketed with the Goex name on it. I guess that it's just the north side of town that was short on black powder substitutes.

[rogerthat]

I have the same pistol and have used the Pyrodex pellets in it (30 gr. equiv). The balls, also .454 by Speer, seated comfortably into the cylinder with a wad by Eastern Supply. The pellets are about .630" in length, so I guess either the pellets are too long (?) or the pad is too thick (these I use are about .15" thick uncompressed). Hope this helps you diagnose the problem.

[JIMinPHX]

My pellets were all about .637" & my wads were about .122-.125". The powder cavities in my cylinder look rounded in the back. Maybe that has something to do with it.

edit:
I just noticed that this is rogerthat's first post on the board. Welcome & thank you for the info!

[rogerthat]

Rounded same as mine but I noticed there is a shoulder about .97 down in the cylinder. Doesn't look like something that would impede the pellet, but I see that when I drop a pellet in, it stops at about .33 deep (.63 + .33 = .96 Hmmmm). Not enough for a ball an pad. I have to assume that when I seat the ball I add enough force to squeeze the Pyrodex further down into the cylinder beyond that shoulder. Note that I'm new to C&B (the Pietta and accessories were a Christmas gift from Dear Old Dad) So my information is strictly based on the fact that I have shot the same pistol with the same Pyrodex and lead ball with no problems. And thanks kindly for the welcome.

[JIMinPHX]

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. I just looked at one of my powder cavities a little closer & took some quick measurements with a vernier & a ball gage. My throats are around .445" & that diameter looks like it goes down about .922". After that, it necks down to about .383" diameter for a total depth of around 1.29" with a somewhat rounded bottom. Since my pellets are about .407" in diameter, they hit on the shoulder & stop there. The crunching of the pellet that I felt when I pushed a little harder must have been the edges of the pellet scraping off as it pushed past the shoulder.

It looks to me like the chambers were rough drilled to about .383" then finished bored to final size in a separate operation. Since the gun was originally intended to be used with loose powder, they probably didn't worry too much about getting the finish bore dimension all the way to the bottom of the chamber. The difference in total capacity would be pretty small, so with a loose powder, you probably would not even notice.

I just took a look at a different gun (58 Rem). The chamber bores in that one go all the way to the bottom. It has no shoulders. I'll bet that the pellets would drop right into that cylinder with no trouble at all. It looks like this issue may vary from gun to gun.

[JIMinPHX]

Wow,
a new guy that shows up & helps out one of the board regulars with his first post. That's kind of an unusual twist. Usually the new guys are the ones that need the help.

Thanks. :drinks:

[rogerthat]

It's a lot easier to debug when we have the exact same toys. Takes out the guesswork.

Related question if I may: Does the wedge in your Pietta require a 3-ton arbor press and two mule teams to extract? The first time I took it appart I had to drive the wedge free (and a wooden dowel just became toothpicks). I assume that this is related to it being new and tight, but I thought I'd ask how yours fits.

Thanks.

[JIMinPHX]

Yea, they fit them tight when they are new. After the first hundred rounds, she'll get more friendly to disassemble. I usually take a small piece of brass or aluminum flat bar & hold it up against the end of the wedge, then bring the gun & the flat bar down against a bench together. That usually knocks out the wedge with little or no trouble.

Mine is dead nuts accurate, but it shot high when I got it. I had to grind the top of the hammer down a little to get it to shoot to point of aim. How about yours?

[rogerthat]

I've only had it out a couple of times and used both black powder in varying doses and the Pyrodex so I don't have a firm grasp on where it hits. I will say that even while fumbling with the powder and closing my eyes at trigger-break (I know, but it was my first load-em-yourself I've shot in years), I was in the black on the paper targets consistently. I plan to shoot it again this weekend (weather permitting) so I'll give a little range report after that. Say, how often do you pull appart the action to clean inside the works? Every time?

[docone31]

I strip mine every firing session.
The wedge gets easier each time.
Excessive loads will shoot it loose though. Some pistols recquire either a new wedge, or peening of the rolled metal.
My Walker was shot real loose. I peened the cylinder pin, where the metal had rolled, and peened the wedge where it was hammered in.
Seemed to do the trick for now. It tightened up and fired real well with 30gn loads.

[JIMinPHX]

I hope that you wear glasses when you shoot that thing. They sometimes have a tendency to blow the caps apart into a ton of really small bits of shrapnel when you fire them. It's sort of common for some if it to come back at your face. It's also common for some of it to glide along the curve of the hammer & end up inside the lock works. Some guys put a big glob of grease at the base of the hammer curve to catch the little bits & pieces and keep them mostly out of there. Some guys disassemble the gun after every shooting & clean everything.

I clean the insides if -
a) I've shot more than 3 or 4 rounds
b) I'm going to put the gun away for a week or more
c) it looks really dirty
d) I saw chunks of cap shrapnel go down inside the lockworks
e) something jams or feels stiff.

It's more important to clean everything if you are shooting true black powder because it's remnants are more corrosive.

I'm assuming that you know HOT soapy water is the proper cleaning agent for muzzle loaders & not modern smokeless powder solvent. I'm also assuming that you know to grease up the hand, the star, the cylinder axle, etc. After I'm done cleaning & drying the gun, I run a patch full of bore butter up & down the barrel a few times to leave it coated. I do the same trick inside the cylinders, followed by dry patching to leave only the very faintest coating inside there. I also visually check to be sure that my nipple holes are fully open. I also wipe down the external parts of the gun with a lite coat of oil. Every 2 or 3 cleanings I pull the nipples out, clean their threads, lube them with some gorilla grease or CVA breach & nipple Grease, then put them back in. The nipple threads on the Pietta's are a weird extra fine metric, but taps in that size are available if you look for them hard enough.

Usually the thing on those pistols that needs a little attention is the fit between the caps & the nipples. If the caps are too loose & fall off easily, that's dangerous. It can possibly cause a chain fire. If the caps are too tight & give you trouble going on all the way, that can cause misfires. The fit of the cap also influences how much the caps will blow apart when the gun is fired. I've heard of some competitive shooters that fit them in such a way that the caps will stay mostly in one piece to avoid the likelihood of cap fragments jamming up the works. I've also heard stories of guys that score the inside of the caps so that they will blow off towards the outside of the gun & not into the works. Me, I haven't bothered with either of those two tricks & I've only ever had the gun jam up from cap fragments once.

Sometimes you get lucky & every nipple takes the caps well the day that you pull the gun out of the box for the first time, but that seems to be more the exception than the rule according to most of the people that I have spoken to. Also, the fit of the caps varies a little from brand to brand. CCI #11 is what I settled on for the 51, after refitting all my nipples to make them all pretty much exactly the same. I forget if the Remington caps are tighter or looser. I think that RWS makes a 10.75 or something like that which some guys use for a tight fitting #11 if their nipples are loose. There are also #10 caps out there, which are much smaller & will probably not fit on your 51. There are other guns like the 58 Remington, that normally take a #10. Pietta makes that model too. The nipples on the two Piettas have the same weird metric threads & can be interchanged. I'm not sure if the nipple heights would be correct if you swapped them over though. In general, there are about a half a million subtle little different varieties of nipples out there for muzzle loaders & unless you have just the right one, then cap ignition will usually give you trouble.

I find that a piece of .38 Special brass makes a good fixed powder measure for almost any of the standard size .44 cap & ball revolvers.

[waksupi]

Jim. Pyrodex and other BP substitutes are much more corrosive than black powder.

[rogerthat]

I never shoot without eye and ear protection. The CCI #11s I use have been reliable except for a fragment jamming the cylinder once. The blown out fragments followed the nipple on around and hung it after the next shot. Other than that, a little pinch before seating them and they seem to stay put. Hope that remains true. I've got the nipple wrench and dedicated cleaning rod and bore swab etc. for the BP pistol (so I don't mix my regular gun cleaning chemicals accidentally) and use hot water with a little mild soap. There was an awkward moment the first time I dunked a pistol in my kitchen sink. Just didn't quite seem right. But it cleaned up nicely and I finish-coated it with olive oil as I had been told this was a good coating oil for BP pistols. I'll make it a point to place a little lube on the nipple threads from now on so they don't weld themselves into place.

Thanks for all the tips.

[JIMinPHX]

Jim. Pyrodex and other BP substitutes are much more corrosive than black powder.

I had always been told the opposite. I never tested it myself. Is there some way that we can confirm this?

[Bloodman14]

Since we're talkin' '51 Colt Confederate Navies (in foty-fo', mind you), here is my .02.
I bought the Pyro pellets just for something new to try. I can't tell any difference between those and loose Pyro (P). I couldn't justify the expense of Wonder Wads after using them, so I lubed my RB's with LLA, thinking that it would lube/seal just fine. I was right, it also cleans up pretty well. I cast some RB's in .451 from WW's, thinking logically that the smaller dia. would make for the hardness. I was right, there, too. I don't use Crisco or lard for grease, I picked up a can of Extreme Pressure Moly Disulfide at Autozone, and use it in all my guns. Best gun grease out there!
I under stand that the RB should be loaded to just flush/under the face of the cylinder; I also understand that there should be no airspace between the powder and the RB. If I load to cylinder face, I can hear the powder moving in the cyl. If I load to the powder, the RB is well below the cyl. face. Which is correct? I load to the powder to keep it consistent. No problems so far, FWIW

[mooman76]

You want no air gap with BP or BP substiutes. It's a saftey issue. The just below flush is probably for better accuracy but you don't want to override saftey for a little bit of accuracy.

[Archer]

Jim. Pyrodex and other BP substitutes are much more corrosive than black powder.

APP powder claims it isn't corrosive at all,
and cleans up with just water.
I tried some, and so far they were right.
Pyrodex, on the other hand, is corrosive
as all heck.

[TAWILDCATT]

I dont know to much as I dont shoot them .but I have a new renagade in 50 cal and a flint in 45.a rem and colt repos.I did have a rem 45 colt and a rem 44 from the civil war.found originals are sighted to 75 yds.
have fun

[JIMinPHX]

I under stand that the RB should be loaded to just flush/under the face of the cylinder; I also understand that there should be no airspace between the powder and the RB. If I load to cylinder face, I can hear the powder moving in the cyl. If I load to the powder, the RB is well below the cyl. face. Which is correct? I load to the powder to keep it consistent. No problems so far, FWIW

Always load the ball down against the charge. If you want to load with the ball up higher, then either add more powder or add more wads or use a filer material like grits over the wad & under the ball. Everything needs to be seated firmly together.

[Bloodman14]

Jim, that is a waste of grits! Maybe Malt-o-Meal? I'll just load to powder, it's easier!
Thanks for the info.