bb vs fb

[686]

there has been a lots of talk on fb and bb bullest. about leading and accuracy.
less take 45 acp 200 gr swc to compaire . for a test i would like to see a mechine test barrel. find one that shoots the ff best at 50 yrds, then find a barrel that shoots the bb best at 50 yrds. both barrels , if not the same barrel should be clean and east to clean. all bullets should be casted from same lead mix and same as cast diam. shoot 10 fowling shoots then 50 shot group. if the same barrel is used it should be cleaned good before the next bullet test. if a different barrel used do the same test as the first barrel. then switch the bullets to barrels and do the test again. before the test weigh the barrel and also after the test to see the weight of lead build up.

YES THIS IS TAKING THE WHOLE THING TO FAR. i did not even get in to what lead
mixture, size, lube, or powder load.

i guess what i am getting at is it is very hard to say a bb ar fb bullet shoots the best and leads the less. your gun may shoot one better than the other, but that does not mean it does not shoot better in another gun. i am sure you have had one barrel shoot a given load better than another in the same 1911 frame. this does not mean the bullet was bad, just that the barrel did not like it as well.

i do agree the fb bullet should shoot better and lead less than a bb bullet just because of it's shape. a flat shape for the gasses to push on and not to go around like a bb. BUT I HAVE NOT HAD IT TO BE A FACTOR FOR 50 YRD SHOOTING. and for 800 fps loads.

i think the bb bullets cast easer than a ff bullet. i know the bb bullet loads easer than a fb bullet. yes a fb bullet lumes better in a lyman type luber than a bb bullet. i use a star luber.

OK i have thick skin. let me have it. have a good day charles

[44man]

I can't comment on an auto or rifle but in a revolver, the flat base shoots better. I have removed the BB from several molds and have cut groups in have each time. I also can't say if it because of the increased drive band length or if it is because the BB is just not good.

[beagle]

I've a 429667HP mould and had the BB removed from it. The FB version shoots much better than did the BB version before the conversion. That;s in a M94 Winchester Legacy .44 Magnum.

Just my experience./beagle

[fredj338]

Just MOE, but I do think FB bullets shoot better & cleaner than BB. This is based on shooting both thru several diff 45acps. If I could go back, all mu molds would be FB.

[high standard 40]

OK, I could be wrong. But as I understand it, the only reason for a bevel base is to provide reliable function in automated & progressive loading machines. There is reputed to be a slight negative impact on the bullet as it leaves the muzzle causing a small degree of upset and groups can suffer. All other things being equal, I'd say the flat base would be better. As perfect as possible a base on the bullet the better. It's part of the reason for nose pour bullets. Have I tested both? No I have not. But I do trust the opinions of many people here and elsewhere who through their experience have decided to stick to the flat base. I do not own a bevel base mold because of it. My $.02

[MGD]

Go to old handloader magazine. John Zemaneck did an interesting study on flat v bevel base in the 38 with H&G wadcutters. He did not like bevel bases, but they shot groups that were about 30% smaller at 50 yds.

[243winxb]

The Lyman 200gr BB shot best for me out the 4 bullets. Series 70 Colt Gold Cup using light target loads with Bullseye. Recovered bullets showed less deformity of the base compared to FB. When sizing in a Lyman 450, the bb collects a ring of grease, i could do without that. The company went out of business that makes a special sizing die to eliminate it. I filled a few holes with lead shot, helped a little. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/CastBullets_20090207_005.jpg

[Bret4207]

While I dislike BB intensely, there will no doubt be many barrels that shoot them as well or better than a similar FB design. That doesn't mean BB are overall more accurate than FB, it just means in those guns they work better.

To make a definitive analysis would take hundreds of thousands of rounds in dozens of guns. Might be fun, for a while, but in the meantime I'll shoot what my gun likes and be happy with that. And I'll still hate BB!

[MtGun44]

OK, if you have thick skin - How about using the SHIFT key when you type "I"?

The conventional rules of punctuation and capitalization are intended to make reading
easier to follow and understand. Those that refuse to follow those rules are being
lazy and inconsiderate of their readers.

Hope your skin is thick enough not to be offended, it is not intended. This use of "i" instead
of "I" is becoming a low grade epidemic and is very irritating. Everybody ESPECIALLY me
makes plenty of typing errors, but the consistent pattern of ignoring standard rules of
punctuation and grammar is inconsiderate.

My experience is BB designs are slightly less accurate, not necessary for my reloading methods
so I use them when I cannot avoid it, avoid them whenever I can.

Bill

[sagamore-one]

Well said Mr.Bill..
As for me... Make mine Bb

[cajun shooter]

Well Mr. Bill, I do agree with the content of your answer but not the way it was done. We as adults may notify someone by PM and say that we would like to give some constructive criticism. You don't have to call someone down on a public forum to be a helpful person. I was a police firearms instuuctor for many years and found that a little talk off to the side works much better all around. I have read many of your post since becoming a member of this forum and agree with what I've read. I thought you were a different type of person. Later David

[softpoint]

I have shot both BB and FB bullets in my auto pistols for years and cannot swear to any accuracy advantage of either one. If you buy commercial cast bullets you will probably get BB, on the other hand I prefer the FB if I cast and lube in conventional manner, because of the aforementioned mess in the lubrisizer.:drinks:

[MtGun44]

Cajun Shooter,

Point well taken, I only said something because he said he "had thick skin".
I tried to be as polite as I could be, maybe I failed at that. I will certainly
take your advice in the future.

Thanks.

Bill

[44man]

The Lyman 200gr BB shot best for me out the 4 bullets. Series 70 Colt Gold Cup using light target loads with Bullseye. Recovered bullets showed less deformity of the base compared to FB. When sizing in a Lyman 450, the bb collects a ring of grease, i could do without that. The company went out of business that makes a special sizing die to eliminate it. I filled a few holes with lead shot, helped a little. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/CastBullets_20090207_005.jpg
There is a vast difference in boolit design shown here. Are you sure it was not a better boolit overall instead of a BB? If you had two exactly the same, one FB and one BB to show actual groups with, a better determination could be made.

[StarMetal]

Here's my two cents and I'm a nobody. I have both bullet styles. I build tuned 1911's and will put my personal built pistols against any of the big boys. With that said I have as mentioned the tuned 1911's, Model 21 Glock, 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk with 45 acp cylinder, Model 25 Smith 45 Colt, Win 94 Trapper 45 Colt, Marlin 94 Cowboy 45 Colt, Thompson Semi tommy gun, the H K UCP 45 acp carbine, and a 45 Ruger Old Army. There is no difference in accuracy in any of those firearms shooting FB or BB. I do shoot 45 acp design bullets from the 45 Colt's that don't have an ACP cylinder by the way. I'm convinced it's a metal attitude here. Many of you have yourselves convinced the FB is better. Far as exiting the muzzle I'd say the BB has a stronger base, by design, then the fragile thins corner edge of a FB to resist any damage for exit gases. Be a hard one to prove. I know one thing, you boys can waste your time with FB's and the slightly harder loading of it in your cases, as you will have to bell the mouths more then what a BB requires. I don't believe any of us require the extreme accuracy in handguns of this caliber do we? Doesn't the boat tail rifle bullet fly better for longer ranges? I know that's not a good comparison, but it does say something for the rebated, boat tailed, or beveled base. Please don't reply with at 100 yards FB rifle bullets are just as accurate, I know that.

I will admit that if you have a BB that is extreme it gives you some fits for lubing on the luber/sizer machines. Mine don't as they aren't extreme.

Joe

[pdawg_shooter]

I shoot both myself, and I guess I am not a good enough shot to tell the difference. I do like BBs when paper patching, makes it easier to twist the tails without tearing the paper!

[44man]

The last mold I fooled with was for a .357. I could not get any 50 yd accuracy with the BB so I cut it out of the mold.
Here are two groups to compare. I called the one shot low, my fault.
This has been what I have found in several guns and calibers. I don't think it has a thing to do with effect at the muzzle, something else is at work, somewhere else.

[StarMetal]

The last mold I fooled with was for a .357. I could not get any 50 yd accuracy with the BB so I cut it out of the mold.
Here are two groups to compare. I called the one shot low, my fault.
This has been what I have found in several guns and calibers. I don't think it has a thing to do with effect at the muzzle, something else is at work, somewhere else.

Jim I'm just not finding it with my 45 caliber BB. You saw all the firearms I listed, one even being a cap n ball revolver. I can't see what difference the base makes in a revolver particularly. The main powder gas pressures centers itself at the base of the bullet, although there is some pressure in all directions on everything. My Ruger Old Army probably will out shoot a lot of match handguns with both types of ACP bullets.

Joe

[jsizemore]

I have discovered in my travels, that even if the fella didn't use proper english, I was sure glad that he took the time to tell me about the tiger in the bush. I just had to be smart enough to understand.

[Bret4207]

Joe, the BB/boat tail comparison doesn't hold water. Different styles, angles, lengths- apples and steak. I do however appreciate the idea of a BB being stronger than a FB. Interesting as I hadn't thought of it like that. I thought of the BB as being more prone to uneven exit from the muzzle as most of the BB boolits I shot, commercial BTW, were uneven and many were clearly not even. There seemed to be a similarity among the damage leading me to assume the mould wasn't round at the bevel.

At the home cast level given moulds of equal quality I can't think there'd be much difference in the base as far as strength goes. Proper handling and quality control should even that out. I'll admit I'm not a fan pf BB as I've never seen them shoot as well as FB, but like I said, I've never seen any of good quality.

[StarMetal]

Joe, the BB/boat tail comparison doesn't hold water. Different styles, angles, lengths- apples and steak. I do however appreciate the idea of a BB being stronger than a FB. Interesting as I hadn't thought of it like that. I thought of the BB as being more prone to uneven exit from the muzzle as most of the BB boolits I shot, commercial BTW, were uneven and many were clearly not even. There seemed to be a similarity among the damage leading me to assume the mould wasn't round at the bevel.

At the home cast level given moulds of equal quality I can't think there'd be much difference in the base as far as strength goes. Proper handling and quality control should even that out. I'll admit I'm not a fan pf BB as I've never seen them shoot as well as FB, but like I said, I've never seen any of good quality.

Bret,

I got you thinking, that's good. Thing about the when the base of a flat base bullet is right at the very last part of the muzzle...no more length of barrel left....at the extreme edge, but still sealing the bore. Now all we have to how whatever pressure is behind it is that very very thin fragile corner. Who's to say one part of it doesn't give up the ghost and gas escape and the bullet pops loose of the muzzle crooked.

You have a valid point on quality of the moulds. My BB one hapens to be a Saeco 4 cavity. I was at first concerned "did they cut all four chambers exactly the same"? Well I guess they done well because I don't sort them to cavity and my groups are most excellent with this style of bullet. Like I said mine doesn't have a long beveled edge, it's rather short. With that said I have no messy lubing problems with it.

On the other side of the stick I get most excellent groups with the FB style also.

I sure would hate to machine off the bevel portion of my mould for a test, but I could lightey chuck some bullets in my lathe and cut off the bevel. Tell you the truth, I know they would still shoot good.

Might have to do with what style, what caliber, what brand of mould. We know for positive that 44man is an excellent shooter so his claims are very believeable to me.

Joe

[686]

It seems that some think the same as me that accercy will not be hurt with bb and they load easier. Maybe some GB's in the future will have a bb bullet. I would like to see the Lyman 452460 with one lube grove and a bb.

Thanks to All