Casting too hot/fast

[xxclaro]

Is it possible to cast too hot or too fast? I just got a Lee production pot,and for the most part the bullets have been coming out okay. I had to do the polishing thing on the molds to get the bullets to drop,and it helped,though the .45 is still sticking a bit. The problem I'm having is that even though the bullets fill out well, there are often tiny holes in the base. The edges are crisp, but the holes are usually close to the middle,around the sprue. Also, the sprue doesn't want to cut very cleanly unless I let the mold cool to the point where it takes a couple hard wacks to cut the sprue. I find if I fill a mold,set it down,fill the other mold and then pick up the other and cut it, it seems a bit better. Weird thing is it's not all the bullets,maybe a quarter of them show these pinholes. I really need to get a thermometer,but blew my budget on the pot and molds. Hopefully next month I can get one. I started of casting with the pot turned up to about 8,or a bit more. I tried goin down to 7,but the pinholes persist. The sprue plates are also leaving small grooves in hte mold,even after I polished them with 2000 grit wet sandpaper. Any suggestions are much appreciatted.

[mooman76]

Depends on what you are casting with. Steel moulds, aluminum, 1,2, 4 or 6x. It's all different. If it's too hot you will get sever frosting and the bullets won't come out right. They won't have good fill out. I usually cast around 6 1/2 ater I get going good and the mould is up to temp. I start probubly about 7 1/2 and gradually turn it down. You will find also the bullets drop bettter when you get to the right temp. The hole(s) you are talking about I believe is a tear you get when you cut the sprue and the bullets arent cooled completely. I don't fret a small even one but uneven large ones are not good. Try turning the heat down a little more when you get going and see how you do. If you start getting pour fill out turn the heat back up a little.

[Springfield]

If you are getting smal grooves(galling) on the mould tops then the moulds are not hot enough. Also you are letting them cool down too much before cutting the sprue, should be easy enought to open the sprues by hand. Shouldn't have to do any whacking once they are up to temp. I think the pinholes are just incomplete fill-out. Cast a bit faster and don't wait so long to cut the sprues and the problems shold go away.

[runfiverun]

use mold lube[from bullshop] on the top of the mold i use antisieze just a dab,it will glide better and keep the lead smears from happening.
with aluminum i don't fret the torn sprues it's better that beating the mold to death.
if they are huge then let the mold sit for 5 more seconds, or wipe the top on a damp rag to help finish the cooling.

[jonk]

In Lee's instructions at least it talks about a 'rythm' of pouring, touching to a wet rag, and cutting the sprue... probably for this very reason.

I don't let small tears bother me. Depends on the caliber and what I'm using it for.

I have gotten the mold so hot that the bullet dropped and slumped/warped. Too hot by far.

How hot to run your pot depends on your alloy. Pure lead I run all the way at 10 to help with viscosity. Wheelweights I usually start at 10 until it just starts to melt, then back off to 8 until the mold is hot, then 7 for steady casting. If there is a little zinc contamination I run hotter as well- I've had it where I COULD still get fill out but had to run things a tad on the hot side- 8 to 9- to get maybe half the bullets to drop looking good. The others were admittedly rejects but they got remelted and eventually made ok.

[Wayne Smith]

If you are getting a pinhole it suggests that you don't have enough of a sprue for the pull down of the lead into the mold as it cools. Leave a bigger sprue and see if they don't disappear. When you look at the top of the cooling mold you will see the lead sucking into the mold. This is normal and you need enough lead there to completely fill the mold or you will get holes in your bullet base. If you section one of those bullets with a pinhole you may find a void on the other end of the pinhole.

The other option is that your lead is too cool and the lead hardens before the mold completely fills.

[DLCTEX]

If you hold the mold against the spout when bottom pouring (pressure pouring) then it is hard to get enough sprue to prevent pits in the base. Air can be trapped causing pits when pressure pouring. The sprue should not be hard to cut after things are up to working temp. I wear heavy leather gloves and grasp the mold in my right hand and use thumb pressure to cut the sprue (quickly, don't tarry). I don't like whacking on my molds any more than I have to. Each mold will dictate it's own needs for temp to work well, including boolit release. Experiment with hotter and colder casting, regulating by temp and speed of casting. I would recommend that you get and use Bullplate Lube on the molds to help prevent smearing, lubricate alignment and pivot pins, and, I believe, let you cut a sprue earlier.

[docone31]

I get nice sharp bases on mine. They also have a tiny crater in the middle of the sprue.
I suspect it is part of casting with my molds. I use a large sprue, cut when both freeze and pull down the center.
If I were shooting competitively, I would cast a large batch and select those that were within tolerance.
To date, all my castings have had that tiny crater. I mean thousands.
My thoughts are, the cutting action pulls out the center. The center of the casting is still softer than the casting itself as the heat has not completely been removed. If it is cool enough to not get that crater, the stress on the sprue plate would be higher. Even my pure lead ML castings have that imperfection.
No matter what I have done so far.

[par0thead151]

is there any reason to not cut the sprue off when it is quazi molten?
i have had good luck doing it this way as it cuts like butter and the sprue falls off the sprue plate very easily then. the more it cools on me, the more prone it is to sticking .

[Slow Elk 45/70]

ParOthead151, NO reason at all , if your boolits are filling out OK, as stated above, depends on alloy temp, etc.

If it works for you , Don't change it.....have fun.

[BeeMan]

I wish I had a picture of the results last time I cast. I had small voids in the base outside the sprue area. XXClaro's description is spot on for what I saw. I bottom poured from a Lee 10 lb pot into the RCBS 180 FNGC 30 cal. Alloy is WW, fluxed thoroughly with a dry paint stirrer when a new ingot is added.

I am suspecting vent issues. I was using Bullplate sprue lube to offset the fact I tend to run on the hot side. My guess is that the very thin BPSL film is making venting between the sprue plate and blocks problematic. I hope to VERY lightly bevel the block parting line and try again this weekend, keeping everything else the same.

BeeMan

[454PB]

This symptom is not temperature related, it's PRESSURE related. Filling the mould too quickly is what causes the pinholes/air pockets. Try filling more slowly, or reduce the level of alloy in the pot.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

I have had the same problem, I have found that running at a hotter temp and cutting the spur sooner helps. but like everyone stated, you have to find the way that works the best and stick with it.

[sleeper1428]

I had a similar problem with my SAECO 9mm 122gr TC BB two cavity mold except mine was a problem with fins forming on the bases of each boolit. First I tried adjusting the sprue plate, thinking that the finning was being caused by a loose plate but this did nothing to solve the problem so then I decided to start lowering the pot temperature on my Lee 4-20 bottom pour. I had been casting with the dial set somewhere between 6 and 7 but it wasn't until I got the dial down to barely over 4 that I finally got rid of those fins and started dropping perfect, completely filled out boolits. So now I have close to 500 of these 9mm boolits with varying degrees of finning on the bases that will have to go back into the pot for recasting! Dial on max to get the contents into a liquid state with the mould resting on top of the pot, pour a few to get the mould up to temp and then back the dial down to barely above 4 and start casting. Live and learn but keep the Silver Stream flowing!!

[snaggdit]

I agree with 454pb. Adjust your bottom pour to pour slower. I cast with my Lee pot set to 7. Also, I read the article on speed casting in one of the stickies that described flipping the mold over when the sprue just starts to solidify and pressing the surface to a wet cloth. Cools the sprue down and allows for instant cutting (still easy to do). Once I get into a rythm it seems to keep my mold a little cooler, too (Lee aluminum molds). I don't have to touch the bottom to the wet cloth all that much. When the frosting gets really noticable (and I prefer some frosting) I hit it once or twice and then keep cycling without that step. Really speeds up casting. The boolits pile up fast. Setting down one mold to switch to another is just wasted time IMHO. I have done as many as 500 in an hour with a 2 banger.

[fredj338]

is there any reason to not cut the sprue off when it is quazi molten?
i have had good luck doing it this way as it cuts like butter and the sprue falls off the sprue plate very easily then. the more it cools on me, the more prone it is to sticking .
If the sprue isn't set, it will smear as you cut it off. After awhile, you get a lead build up. I rarely get base holes casting @ 700-750deg w/ a hot mold & WW alloy or 25-1 alloy. I let the sprue get solid, then open the sprue plate.

[ChuckS1]

I've been casting for abut a year and I count to 10 after the sprue sets before I cut the sprue with a whack of my hammer handle. Most times the boolits stick and take a couple of taps on the handles to fall. Am I waiting too long to cut the sprue?

[docone31]

Yup.
Watch the sprue puddle. It will "flash" and the center will pull in. At that point you push the sprue plate.
Whacking it is not really a good idea.

[Bret4207]

Search for "BruceB speed casting". While you can get a mould too hot for reasonable speed, using the BruceB method will cool things enough to keep a fast pace up while getting perfect boolits.

Most people can't get the moulds hot enough to cast good boolits it seems.

[Dale53]

I have been casting bullets for more than fifty years. I even commercially cast bullets for a time. That means that I have cast several hundred thousand bullets. However, I am still open to learning and often pick up VERY useful tips from other casters.

No matter how much experience a single person can have, it cannot match the experience of thousands of people trying to do the same thing (that's why this is such a good forum).

I recently picked up an EXCELLENT idea from Mike Venturino in a bullet casting article from a few months ago in the Handloader magazine. Mike got his idea from a friend. He purchased a manicure fan (the ladies use them to dry their nails quickly). It is a miniature fan about 4"-6" in diameter and can be found in the fan department (who would have thunk it:roll:).

It is used for cooling the mould instead of having a wet towel or water near the lead pot. I found one at the local "Target" store but they are also available on line from a variety of places. Mine cost a whopping $7.49 and is just a small motor with a simple wire cage and low cost stand. I clamped the stand so the fan hangs over the casting bench just a few inches off the bench. It is completely out of the way, blows a light breeze (not strong enough to blow back in your face, etc) and cools the mould perfectly in two seconds. It works perfectly with a four cavity iron mould, two cavity irons, and two, four and six cavity aluminum moulds. It has sped up the sprue cooling significantly that leads to better production.

Yesterday, I ran twenty lbs of EXCELLENT bullets with a four cavity LBT mould (240 gr WFN for a .44) in one hour flat. That will not match up to BruceB, perhaps, but I was more than happy with the output:mrgreen:.

By the way, I twist the sprue off with my hands (don't want to beat on my mould any more than is necessary. I get MUCH nicer bullet bases since I learned to twist off the sprue.

Bullshop's Sprue Plate Lube is an important ingredient in my happy caster attitude these days (I would not want to be without it).

Dale53

[Gunslinger]

I thought most people used more than 1 mold simultaneously?

I've been casting the last 2 days (yes pics are on their way) I used 3 molds at the same time. A Lee 6-banger, a 3 cavity something and a 2 cavity RCBS. Pot was set at 8. Didn't get any lead smears, boolits dropped okay and only had a few wrinkled ones the first 3-4 castings. Okay the sprues were obviously a little stiff... but not critical I think.

Soooo you're saying one mold at a time is better?

[snaggdit]

Search for "BruceB speed casting".

As I mentioned, and is mentioned in the article, using this method you can keep going without having to wait for the sprue to harden. The time saved not having to set down and pick up another mold adds to your boolit pile that much faster. If your system works for you, good deal. I would just suggest you try it and see how it works for you. Not for a first timer, obviously, but if you have been casting awhile it might be an improvement. Was for me.

[Bret4207]

Sorry Snaggdit, missed your post.

[Springfield]

I did the wet towel thing for a while but I found that running 2 of the same mould is faster, no down time. If I don't have 2 then I find something close. With most 200 grain bullets I can do about 1300 an hour, with very few rejects. It's all about finding what the mould likes and sticking with it to keep the perfect temps. And speaking of temps, don't any of you guys have a thermometer? Setting a LEE to 4 or 7 means nothing as the temp goes down if you add lead and goes up if you don't.

[kamikaze1a]

What does it mean when your finished boo's has a "crystaline" appearance? The surface is smooth but the color is not solid gray but has a look like those prismatic foils? It happens when I am going hot and heavy...really turning out the drops. Any hotter and I get finning. Is it purely the temp or alloy a factor?

[fastgun]

I have found when using a bottom pour pot that if I pour directly into the hole in the sprue plate I will get some random pin holes in the base of the bullet. The cure that has worked for me is to pour with the molten lead just hitting the edge of the hole and the start of the counter sink on the spure plate at the same time. The only thing is you have to be quick at shutting off the flow of lead when the cavity is full.

[DLCTEX]

What does it mean when your finished boo's has a "crystaline" appearance? The surface is smooth but the color is not solid gray but has a look like those prismatic foils? It happens when I am going hot and heavy...really turning out the drops. Any hotter and I get finning. Is it purely the temp or alloy a factor?

That's what we call frosting. It is due to running hot. A light frosting does no harm
, may even help hold lube, and can be wiped off easily.

[John Boy]

xxclaro ... this casting procedure with any mold has not let me down yet ...
http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

When the sprue puddle frosts at 5 seconds, the mold is at the right temperature and then the 8 Phase rhythm is continued

[kamikaze1a]

Thanks for the comment but I think this is beyond frosting. I get frosting if I pace myself properly or allow the mold to cool after it gets to this "crystaline" look point. It seems that it does affect the performance and kind of goes away once it cools or after sizing/lube. On the other hand, maybe what I thought was frosting was not... I wish I had a better camera that took good macro...Thanks again!


That's what we call frosting. It is due to running hot. A light frosting does no harm
, may even help hold lube, and can be wiped off easily.

[243winxb]

Let the alloy cool in the mould more. To hot will give you a frosted bullet that will loose diameter compared to shiney ones.

[DLCTEX]

Maybe you are seeing the effects of hot spots on the boolits caused by parts of the mold loosing heat more slowly? These shrunken areas definately affect boolit quality and balance. Solution is run cooler by timing oe temp.

[xxclaro]

Thanks for all the help,everyone. I went back out to the garage tonight, and turned the heat way down,and poured more slowly. The bullets look much better, shiny and no pinholes, with the sprue's much cleaner too. I would really like to get some of that Bull shop sprue plate lube,if I can find any. I'm going to keep reading the links and info posted,and hopefully learn more. I'm still pretty slow, cast about 350 bullets in 2 hours with my pair of 2 hole molds, so hopefully I can get faster too.

[Dale53]

xxclaro;
Sounds like you are making REAL progress!! Congratulations!

Scroll down to the bottom of the page (WAY down) and click on the "Bullshop" - he is the ONLY source. Get a couple of bottles while you can. If you have a buddy, you can each get two bottles and share the shipping.

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont think you can cast to fast with an alumuinum mold as long as the bullets are deforming when they fall from the mold. Steel molds are a different animal though. If you get a multicavity steal mold to hot it will have fillout problems. It will happen in the spot where the two cavitys meet in the middle. There isnt much metal there on the mold and that spot will get hotter then the rest of the mold. It will first show as a frosted spot on an otherwize non frosted bullet then will eventually lead to the sides of your bullets not filling out. Funny thing is i find it even more prevelent with high tin alloys.

[1Shirt]

I like a little frosting on both cake and boolits. Used to read in the old reloading manuals that it was a bad deal, and all cast should be pretty and shiney. Then a few years ago I started reading Paco Kelly, and his words on frosting. Then did a test from the bench with two or three different rifles with shiney and frosted (to varying degrees)and could see no difference in accuracy. So for a number of years now, I cast with at a pace that produces some frosting, and am convinced that there is something to the theory that frosting helps to hold lube in the grooves. Guess it comes down to what works best for the individual. And Oh Yes, I am also firmly a believer that Bullplate is the best stuff since sliced white bread and dry toilet paper.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[kamikaze1a]

Maybe I don't know what "frosting" looks like. I've always thought it was the stage I see after the mold/melt gets up to temp and after the boo's lose that shiny finish.... After a bunch more pours, I get to the stage where the boo's start appearing a smooth but glittery or crystaline appearance. Anybody got a good pic of frosted boo's?

[Dale53]

Here's what frosting looks like. I often cast "frosted" bullets. As long as the "frost" is not localized, the bullets are often the best of all fill outs.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QHG503bullet-1735.jpg

Dale53