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webby4x4
04-26-2009, 12:42 PM
Hi folks - Newbie question here...

I've cast and loaded a few thousand rounds now for my .45 and 9 mm. Later this week, I plan to go to the range and have some fun.

Aside from regular gun cleaning, is there a special way to deal with barrel leading? Is there a solvent I should use to clean it?

Thanks,
Rick

Ben
04-26-2009, 01:19 PM
webby4x4 :

At one time ( 20 yrs. ago ) , I used a Lewis Lead Remover to removed leading from pistol barrels.

Now I use Copper Chore Boy cleaning pads ( about $2.00 at Wallyworld ) . I take a few strands of this stuff and wrap it several times around a worn pistol cleaning brush until it is a good snug fit in your bore. You make 4 or 5 passes through your pistol barrel with this and there is no leading. Your bore will be sparkling clean and the soft copper ( but still harder than the PB ) will not harm your barrel steel.

You can follow this treatment with some Hoppes and then a light coat of oil .

When you've given this treatment to your pistol, you should be good to go.

Ben

fredj338
04-26-2009, 01:23 PM
I second the CHoreBoy, work so easily it's not an issue cleaning up after shooting lead bullets. A drop or two of Kroil oil on the brush just makes things go faster. No chance of harming the bbl. as the copper wool is quite soft.

RayinNH
04-26-2009, 01:29 PM
Ben mentioned the Lewis Lead Remover. Hoppe's makes a similar thing. In essence it is a round brass patch that fits over a slightly expandable rubber plug. As it is pulled through the bore it removes the lead from the barrel. They are caliber specific and work very well...Ray

heebs
04-26-2009, 01:31 PM
Webby4x4
What I have used for years is White vinegar and hydrogen peroxide mixed 50/50. A vase works great as a holder for your barrel. Totally immerse the barrel and watch it bubble. After about 20 minutes, run a patch through and you are done. You will end up with a sludge on the patch. I usually use a degreaser and then oil as you normally do. No rough stuff needed. Just be cautious and don't get the stuff on blueing. I had a compensator with poor bluing on it and now it is a wonderful case hardened look to it.

dwtim
04-26-2009, 05:05 PM
The best way is to discover a load that does not accumulate lead fouling. 8-)

Heavy fouling? Lewis lead remover or Chore Boy. I have the Hoppe's one. As long as I can get brass patches, I'm good. This applies only to severe fouling. Other than that, a nice, new brush with sharp bristles does the trick.

I've tried various chemicals, both commercial and the one mentioned above. The commercial ones stink (literally) and take maybe 2 layers of atoms off per pass. The acetic acid / hydrogen peroxide takes off more, but it also removes finishes and leaves white metal exposed. (Oh, it works good...reeeeeeeal good.)

brianintheup
04-26-2009, 05:17 PM
I have found that a good bullet lube will help alot with eliminating leading. Try several different lubes and see which one works for you. If you ask which one is the best you will get multiple answers.

ChuckS1
04-26-2009, 05:22 PM
Mercury is great if you can get it.

Flash
04-26-2009, 05:24 PM
Mercury is great if you can get it.

Yep, I have a 5lb bottle of it. I got it from HVAC workers who remove old mercury switches.

3006guns
04-26-2009, 05:29 PM
I'm glad someone else brought up mercury......fastest way to remove lead. You plug the muzzle with a tapered wood dowel and fill 'er up, then wait about ten minutes (longer on a badly fouled barrel). Pull the plug and empty the amalgam back into the original container. Clean. Fast. Politically incorrect, like most good things.

kelbro
04-26-2009, 05:55 PM
Make sure that you use the Chore Boy brand. The 'off-brands' may just be copper washed steel and scratch your barrel up. Use a magnet to be sure.

putteral
04-26-2009, 06:17 PM
Chore Boy is the way to go.
:castmine:

Rockchucker
04-26-2009, 06:32 PM
Now I use Copper Chore Boy cleaning pads ( about $2.00 at Wallyworld ) .




Would this be in the cleanning dept?

webby4x4
04-26-2009, 06:45 PM
Chore Boy it is, then! Thanks guys.

Rick

Cloudpeak
04-26-2009, 09:01 PM
I use ChoreBoy, dry. And another great thing, it seems the more lead I shoot, the more polished the bore is and the easier it cleans up. My 45's take about 4 passes with the brush/C.B. and they're slick as a whistle.

Cloudpeak

RoyRogers
04-26-2009, 09:15 PM
There used to be a flannel type cloth product sold for cleaning lead from barrels. One would cut patches to fit their bore from it and use on a jag. Don't recall if it was green or yellow colored cloth & I haven't seen it in years. It would remove the lead splatter from the front of a stainless steel revolver cylinder in short order as well as clean the lead from a barrel quickly. Seems I remember it was not recommended for external use on blued steel guns.

The choreboy strands work well too & cheaper than the cloth.

RayinNH
04-26-2009, 10:03 PM
Roy Rogers, E-Z Brite Wonder Cloth made by Adco. Gets rid of lead deposits, carbon fouling and plastic buildup in shotgun barrels. I only use it on the front of stainless steel cylinders to remove the carbon discoloration. It works very well. I also says on the package not to rub it on blued or color casehardend finishes. I believe other companies make a similar product...Ray

leadman
04-26-2009, 11:27 PM
I don't worry about leading anymore since I switched to LBT(Lead Bullet Technologies) Blue Soft lube. If I do get any leading, which is rare, a tight patch on a jag will remove it.
LBT Blue prevents the lead from adhering to the steel.
I pushed a 314299 in a 30-06 to over 2,600fps with just a hint of leading after 3 to 5 shots. One tight fitting patch and the accuracy was restored.

geargnasher
04-27-2009, 12:02 AM
I'm jumping on the copper Chore Boy bandwagon, too! Learned that trick trolling threads here long before I joined. Have had many leading problems in the past (still do sometimes when working up new loads until I get the issues worked out) and it works great! :drinks:

btw, if you were to use the vinegar/peroxide trick to treat a non-blued automatic pistol barrel when removed from the gun, it wouldn't be a problem to just soak the whole barrel, would it?

Gear

Bret4207
04-27-2009, 07:09 AM
Chore Boy works good, but I use 4/0 steel wool. That's something I have in the shop already and since it's something we use on a highly polished blued barrel I see little chance of it damaging the barrel. I picked the idea up from some of the Schuetezen guys and I don't think someone with a really good barrel is going to risk it, so I stand by 4/0 steel wool.

Lloyd Smale
04-27-2009, 07:13 AM
two jacketed bullets every 50 rounds or so and it wont build up enough to be a problem

Shuz
04-27-2009, 11:58 AM
I remove minor leading in my .44's by shooting 3 to 5 boolits that are gas checked and stoked by either 18g of 2400 or 17g of WC820. The rest of my revolver shooting is all with plain based boolits. Sure beats scrubing of ANY kind!

felix
04-27-2009, 12:16 PM
Ray, try 3 grains of the fastest pistol powder on the bench, fill with grits very lightly compressed, any boolit, checked or not. Five of those shots will even take out the heaviest leading. If those won't work, slug the barrel from the muzzle with a tight boolit. ... felix

Wilburt
04-27-2009, 12:20 PM
Another fan of chore boy! Works well and quick. Use it dry first... then hopps or oil.

fredj338
04-27-2009, 03:05 PM
two jacketed bullets every 50 rounds or so and it wont build up enough to be a problem

This actually doesn't work that well. It will push out heavier deposits but plates over the top of lighter deposits. Plus, doing thi sin a high pressure round, like a 40, could significantly increase pressure.

John Boy
04-27-2009, 03:24 PM
Warmed pure gum turpentine - not the distilled stuff. Bronze brush - sit for 10 minutes - tight patch. If really leaded - repeat process.

Works good also to remove caked powder foul in the grooves. When the patch squeaks going down the bore - your there

JBL
04-27-2009, 03:37 PM
Outer's foul out is what I use on my high end target guns. My barrel has never seen a brush! You clean the barrel with a soft patch soaked in your favorite powder solvent then degrease it with Gun scrubber. Plug one end of the barrel and fill it with an electrolyte. You then place a stainless steel rode in the barrel and place a clip on the rode and the barrel. The lead (or copper) is electroplated off the inside of barrel. You can use a flashlight and actually see the lead flakes coming off the barrel and floating to the rode. In just about ten minutes all the lead is off and you have a clean barrel. Then dry with a clean patch and oil.
I also tried it on some old pitted barrels. You wouldn’t believe what came out of those!

Cloudpeak
04-27-2009, 06:27 PM
No one's mentioned "Cream of Wheat" yet so I'll throw that out:smile:

I tried it on my 9mm CZ and it seemed to work pretty good. I think I used around 2 grains of W231 and topped it off with COW and a 105 gr SWC bullet but didn't write it down. I did get a small sliver of lead in the chamber which I think had something to do with the SWC bullet. Next time, I'd try a RN bullet but my bores are cleaning up so well now that I don't see a need for it right now.

Cloudpeak

chasmo
07-16-2011, 05:12 PM
I just recently used the 50/50 solution 3% hydrogen peroxide and vinager and it works better than anything I have tried in the past 40 years.

ColColt
07-16-2011, 06:51 PM
Ray, try 3 grains of the fastest pistol powder on the bench, fill with grits very lightly compressed, any boolit, checked or not.

Grits? Probably not found north of the Mason/Dixon but plentiful around these here parts...mostly for eatin'-not shootin'.

SlamFire1
07-16-2011, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale
two jacketed bullets every 50 rounds or so and it wont build up enough to be a problem


This actually doesn't work that well. It will push out heavier deposits but plates over the top of lighter deposits. Plus, doing thi sin a high pressure round, like a 40, could significantly increase pressure.

I regularly shoot out leading from 357's and 44 Mag's with jacketed bullets. I am unaware of any pressure issues.

I don't shoot 40 S&W's but from what I have heard those cartridges are running hot. People blow sidewalls all the time.

I have not gaged my barrels to see if I am plating over deposits. I use a copper brush in all barrels before putting the pistols away and do not notice any issues.

I had some extremely soft factory 32 S&W bullets totally lead the barrel of my M31 S&W. I could not see rifling the inside of the tube was black. It just took enough jacketed bullets to remove all that lead.

dverna
07-18-2011, 12:46 PM
Grits? Probably not found north of the Mason/Dixon but plentiful around these here parts...mostly for eatin'-not shootin'.

North of the line, the only reason to buy grits is for shootin'

Heck, our dogs won't eat it.

Recluse
07-18-2011, 03:17 PM
Webby4x4
What I have used for years is White vinegar and hydrogen peroxide mixed 50/50.

Just be cautious and don't get the stuff on blueing. I had a compensator with poor bluing on it and now it is a wonderful case hardened look to it.

I've used that a few times on the barrels of guns I recently acquired that had suffered bad leading and fouling.

You've got to be careful, though. Pitting can and does happen if you leave the mixture in too long or if the bbl is not in good condition to begin with. But the mix WILL take out the lead.


I'm jumping on the copper Chore Boy bandwagon, too! Learned that trick trolling threads here long before I joined. Have had many leading problems in the past (still do sometimes when working up new loads until I get the issues worked out) and it works great! :drinks:

I keep a bag of copper Chore Boy scrubbers in the cleaning cabinet, and yep, I learned about them right here some years ago while in the hardcore lurker mode.

But I was gratified to see someone else use a technique that I learned at a S&W armorer's school many years ago--and that is four-aught, or 0000 steel wool.

Bret is a big proponent of it and I am too. In fact, that is what I use on the end of a power drill to clean my revolver cylinders because no matter what, I always get fouling at end of the chambers after enough rounds and have to scrub them out.

The 0000 steel wool and some cleaning oil do a fantastic job.


btw, if you were to use the vinegar/peroxide trick to treat a non-blued automatic pistol barrel when removed from the gun, it wouldn't be a problem to just soak the whole barrel, would it?

Gear

Gear, I wouldn't submerge an entire gun in that mixture. For one, you're going to have dissimilar metals in one liquid mixture, remember? All I know about galvanic corrosion is what I've learned on our boat and from other boaters, but I would think that metal is metal and dunking dissimilar metals in a strong acidic solution could have bad consequences.

The chemists and engineers here can correct me if I'm (probably) wrong.

Two, the mixture is caustic and it is not good for you and it WILL cause pitting on metal that is not in good condition. I have experienced that firsthand on some old guns I traded for and had to work like crazy to clean up.

Just seems like a big risk to take.

:coffee:

Fredx10sen
07-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Lewis Lead remover works great for me. Also 1+ on the Chore Boy pads as well.

Wally
07-18-2011, 03:42 PM
If one shoots specials in magnum revolvers (ie .38 Spl/.357 Mag & .44 Spl/.44 mag) you know how the cylinder chambers get gunked up. I struggled for years to clean them easily and yes I used the Chore Boy method...if was just not that effective.

I bought an "adapter" that I could screw in a bronze brush, chucked in a drill. Using a well used brush & wrapped it tight with 0000 steel wool and spun it in the cylinder chambers---in seconds they were cleaned of all the gunk --no damage to the cylinder as the very fine steel wool is just too thin/soft to abrade the steel. I found it best not to use any solvent when using this method.

CPL Lou
07-19-2011, 12:17 AM
I use a little Kroil on a tight fitting patch with some JB Bore paste for light to moderate leading. Rub back and forth vigorously for a few minutes and 'a-la peanut butter sandwiches', a clean bore !
I have the Hoppes version of the Lewis Lead Remover for tougher stuff.

milprileb
07-19-2011, 09:07 AM
In a forum that pours lead alloys to make bullets, it appears the methods of taking lead out of bores (for whatever reason that happens) is pretty shallow and uninspiring.

Scrubbing like mad does not seem to be any better than rubbing sticks to make fire.

Standard solvents don't take lead out.

Its really down to something wound around a brush (steel wool or bronze wool 0000 grade, Lewis lead remover, Frontier gun shop brand or Chore boy type stuff if all copper. Anything else electronic is hardly convenient or common use item.

What I find remarkable if not totally astonishing is the myth of shooting lead out with a FMJ bullet. It is intuitively obvious that you do shoot lead out while layering copper atop lead inside your barrel and now you have created a greater challenge to clean out.

Having said all of that, I mean to throw one big stone in hopes of killing off nonsense. That being this: don't shoot out lead, clean it out.

Lastly the vinegar and peroxide trick is problematic and should be returned to the North Korean Embassy where it belongs.

Three44s
07-19-2011, 09:51 AM
Around here it's Copper Chore Boy and good 'ole Lewis and just about anything wet that's gun friendly.

Finnish with USP or JB bore paste and then treat with CorrosionX and dry patch it out.

After a few round trips with JB or USP and you can pretty much drop them.

The Lewis lead remover works best on forcing cones and the Chore boy works good on the "straight aways"!

Three 44s

GunFun
07-08-2013, 03:41 AM
Can someone explain the rationale for the Cream of Wheat trick?

Additionally, I would appreciate a recipe for this for 9mm and .38 SPL using either 358-105 SWC or 356-124- TL. I generally use bullseye, but I do have some other shotgun powders which may be 'fast'. I plan to pick up some redDot or Promo, but they have been out of stock for a long time.

ku4hx
07-08-2013, 04:32 AM
In a forum that pours lead alloys to make bullets, it appears the methods of taking lead out of bores (for whatever reason that happens) is pretty shallow and uninspiring.

Scrubbing like mad does not seem to be any better than rubbing sticks to make fire.

Standard solvents don't take lead out.

Its really down to something wound around a brush (steel wool or bronze wool 0000 grade, Lewis lead remover, Frontier gun shop brand or Chore boy type stuff if all copper. Anything else electronic is hardly convenient or common use item.

What I find remarkable if not totally astonishing is the myth of shooting lead out with a FMJ bullet. It is intuitively obvious that you do shoot lead out while layering copper atop lead inside your barrel and now you have created a greater challenge to clean out.

Having said all of that, I mean to throw one big stone in hopes of killing off nonsense. That being this: don't shoot out lead, clean it out.

Lastly the vinegar and peroxide trick is problematic and should be returned to the North Korean Embassy where it belongs.

I've always found a liberal application of Elbow Grease to work well. That and a little piece of my all copper kitchen scrub pad of choice. Both are cheap enough and have worked well for me for going on half a century.

Like lead boolits in Glock barrels, I never realized bore lead removal was such a monumental problem until I read all the internet lore.

rogn
07-08-2013, 08:29 PM
Like CL mentioned, w/ moderate leading run a couple of patches wetw/ Kroil and let the gun soak for an hour. then run a tight fitting patch(flannel seems best) thru the bore and it'll remove 95% --- 100% of the leading. It seems to wet the steel and flow under the lead , floats it free. Chore
Boy on a used gun.

finstr
07-08-2013, 08:53 PM
Tell me more about the mercury. Does it dissolve the lead? Do you have to scrub with a brush? How is it applied? Inquiring minds need to know! :)

DougGuy
07-08-2013, 09:17 PM
Well, you can thank all the CRACKHEADS in this country for making chore boy nearly impossible to come by, seems that's what they stick in the crack pipe for a filter or whatever it does.

Be very careful and read the label closely to make sure you aren't getting copper plated STEEL scrubbing pads instead of solid copper mesh.

I found bronze wool at ACE hardware, it took me 7 stores one day to find solid copper equivalent of chore boy, never did find the real stuff, but you can ebay it and pay the shipping and still come out cheaper than the gas it took me to drive to those 7 stores...

Chore boy, wrapped over a plastic jag made for that caliber, works best for me, no solvent needed although it couldn't hurt.

Bucking the Tiger
07-08-2013, 09:34 PM
Kano Kroil works really well for me. Get the barrel inside wet with it and let it sit a few minutes: it will cause the lead to fall out.

afish4570
07-08-2013, 09:45 PM
Try Do my own pest control...co. as a source for the copper mesh, 20 ft. strip is 15.50 shipped. Should last a long time and solve your search for Chore Boy material...afish4570

aspangler
07-08-2013, 11:24 PM
Try a brush wetted with ED'S RED (Google it. not hard to find.) Let stand for 5 min. then dry patches till they come out clean. Best is find a lube that keeps the fouling down to a min.

Lloyd Smale
07-09-2013, 06:14 AM
been doing it in rifles and handguns for 30 years or more and ive never had one bit of pressure problem doing it. Trick is to do it every 50 or so rounds not wait till your bounds. I seldom clean barrels of guns that shoot cast. Never was one of those anal guys that insists every gun is cleaned right down to the steal after every time its used. Youll do more harm to a gun with those kinds of practices. Im not the only one that does this. Many very experienced handgunners do it and its not them that have problems with it. Its the beginner that like i said lets it go to far before he trys it. Another this is we are all handloaders. Nobody said you have to load that jacketed bullet up to 40000 psi. A mild load just hot enough to run your slide on that 40 will work just as well as ammo loaded to max pressures. I rarely load any semi auto handgun using cast up to max pressures anyway. Back off a hundred feet a second or even more and your cast bullet will kill just as well and it takes away the risks especially with guns with unsuported chambers.trick is to do it before the barrel is so full of lead you cant see the rifling. As to it not taking it all out, who cares. Most guns shoot well with a bit in them anyway and some even claim better after a few fouling rounds.
This actually doesn't work that well. It will push out heavier deposits but plates over the top of lighter deposits. Plus, doing thi sin a high pressure round, like a 40, could significantly increase pressure.

finstr
07-09-2013, 10:19 PM
Well, you can thank all the CRACKHEADS in this country for making chore boy nearly impossible to come by, seems that's what they stick in the crack pipe for a filter or whatever it does.

Be very careful and read the label closely to make sure you aren't getting copper plated STEEL scrubbing pads instead of solid copper mesh.

I found bronze wool at ACE hardware, it took me 7 stores one day to find solid copper equivalent of chore boy, never did find the real stuff, but you can ebay it and pay the shipping and still come out cheaper than the gas it took me to drive to those 7 stores...

Chore boy, wrapped over a plastic jag made for that caliber, works best for me, no solvent needed although it couldn't hurt.
I think it may have more to do with the fact that copper prices have gone way up forcing the copper clad steel instead of solid copper. Like lead COWWs the copper chore boy is goin to become extinct. Jmo

jonp
07-10-2013, 07:13 AM
Spray the barrel with balistol and let sit a few minutes. Wrap 0000 steel wool around a used brush and spray it with balistol, scrub and finish with patches. Seems to work well for me and a pkg of steel wool at Lowes is cheap and will last a long time.

GunFun
07-10-2013, 03:10 PM
This series of tests was pretty informative. Ballistol came in the middle, but had almost no effect on lead. It doesn't do much to dissolve lead, but it could inhibit re-adhesion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdYWQfbC5Og (Part 3 shows the results about 20 minutes in. Part 2 includes a conversation with the owner of Ballistol talking about what the product is supposed to do, and reasonable expectations)

This one is less scientific, but still interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ud2M1gGlU

I can say that 0000 Steel wool plus Hoppes No 9 (which was marginally more effective) is a labor intensive method, but will eventually work. It took me about 45 minutes of scrubbing with enough steel wool on my brush to make pushing the brush difficult. The pistol barrel actually got fairly warm from friction. On the upside, my bore shines now. My local wal-mart doesn't have chore boy. This may be the only option for some of us http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GVY126/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1RQOO67LVAPSA

tengaugetx
07-10-2013, 03:53 PM
There used to be a flannel type cloth product sold for cleaning lead from barrels. One would cut patches to fit their bore from it and use on a jag. Don't recall if it was green or yellow colored cloth & I haven't seen it in years. It would remove the lead splatter from the front of a stainless steel revolver cylinder in short order as well as clean the lead from a barrel quickly. Seems I remember it was not recommended for external use on blued steel guns.

The choreboy strands work well too & cheaper than the cloth.

Klean Bore Lead Away cloth. They are yellow and work quite well. The package says it will remove blueing if rubbed hard. All the pistols I shoot regularly are stainless anyway. They also do a great job on the cylinder face of revolvers.
I can't find the chore boy at my local Walmarts. The only on I see there is the copper plated look alike.

jonp
07-10-2013, 08:05 PM
This series of tests was pretty informative. Ballistol came in the middle, but had almost no effect on lead. It doesn't do much to dissolve lead, but it could inhibit re-adhesion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdYWQfbC5Og (Part 3 shows the results about 20 minutes in. Part 2 includes a conversation with the owner of Ballistol talking about what the product is supposed to do, and reasonable expectations)

This one is less scientific, but still interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ud2M1gGlU

I can say that 0000 Steel wool plus Hoppes No 9 (which was marginally more effective) is a labor intensive method, but will eventually work. It took me about 45 minutes of scrubbing with enough steel wool on my brush to make pushing the brush difficult. The pistol barrel actually got fairly warm from friction. On the upside, my bore shines now. My local wal-mart doesn't have chore boy. This may be the only option for some of us http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005GVY126/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1RQOO67LVAPSA

Thats interesting. I just know that it seems to work for me. Maybe if you start with a clean barrel it works better. I use 0000 wool on all kinds of stuff. If you have to scrub your bore for 45min to get it clean you might want to clean it more often

GunFun
07-10-2013, 08:13 PM
I usually just clean it each time I return from the range. How much more often would you suggest?

And this is the first time I have gotten any leading at all. My normal recipe of .358" 50/50 PB/CLWW water dropped and 45/45/10 does the job. I just ran out of CLWW and have been experimenting with how little Lino spacers I can add to PB to aproximate the same alloy. 5 /1 should have done it unless my lino was already diluted.

jonp
07-11-2013, 05:39 AM
I usually just clean it each time I return from the range. How much more often would you suggest?

And this is the first time I have gotten any leading at all. My normal recipe of .358" 50/50 PB/CLWW water dropped and 45/45/10 does the job. I just ran out of CLWW and have been experimenting with how little Lino spacers I can add to PB to aproximate the same alloy. 5 /1 should have done it unless my lino was already diluted.
Your lino may have been. The only gun I have ever had to scrub like yours was a milsurp mauser. A number of days with montana xtreme and jb bore paste cleaned it. Im intetested in what cause so much leading suddenly like that.

detox
07-11-2013, 06:21 AM
Mild forcing cone leading can be removed using regular Hopp's solvent and oversized bronze bore brush.

John L
08-18-2013, 08:46 PM
I have experienced some very rapid and heavy leading trying to find a light load that will push 135 grain LFN, BHN 15, bullets through my Marlin 336 30-30 and Savage 1899 Savage 300. Running without a chrono right now because my tripod is broken. But Bullseye, Unique, AA5744, BL-C-2, Trail Boss, 231 all create enough lead to weigh (=or> 2 grains from the cup after rinsing the brass bore brush in gasoline) in a single range session of less than 50 rounds. I am talking 5 gr BE or 231, 7 or 8 gr Unique, 8 gr Trail Boss, 15 to 20 gr 5744. And it does take hours, not minutes, to get it out. Barrels might have been dirty or had jackets through them at one time or another. But after several cleanings I do believe I am starting out with clean barrels. One Marlin is new and all of the barrels look clean and do not show blue patches after 30 minutes under Hoppes 9. So I don't know how it can be said that lead doesn't build up fast or that it won't if you start with a clean barrel. I have used all of the products mentioned, carefully following instructions and sometimes the recommendations on forums. Can somebody give me a hand on either the cleaning or the load that will reduce the cleaning effort because I am about to go back to j's?

Ben
08-18-2013, 09:05 PM
John L

What is your lube that you're using ?

What diameter cast bullets are you shooting ?

Do you have a flare on the case mouth when you are seating the cast bullet ?

You say that you're shooting a 135 gr. bullet. Is this a plain base or a gas check bullet ?

Have you soaked your barrels overnight with Hoppes # 9 ? Sometimes 30 minutes won't tell you much about the copper in a barrel.

GunFun
08-18-2013, 09:10 PM
Your lino may have been. The only gun I have ever had to scrub like yours was a milsurp mauser. A number of days with montana xtreme and jb bore paste cleaned it. Im intetested in what cause so much leading suddenly like that.

Two problems in my method with that batch. Normally I add ingots of aprox equal size. I know that doesn't accurately reflect weight due to alloy change, but it is fine as long as my alloy is harder than minimum. i.e. any tolerance is absorbed.

First problem: I didn't make my lino spacers into ingots first because it was so clean. so I estimated volume added by looking at changes in fill level to the pot. Not consistent enough, hard to trouble shoot.

2nd problem: If my estimations of volume were dead on, my alloy should have worked better but didn't. I'd gotten the recipe somewhere here, but now I ran the same thing into the excel lead alloy calculator someone made should have come to 11 BHN air cooled. The calculator doesn't project water dropped, but let's call it 13. My normal non-leading recipe calculates out to projected 10BHN as air cooled, and probable 11-12 BHN as water dropped from the mold. So I need to verify my Lino or better yet my final alloy. I also need to control my proportions more carefully.


Final comments:
These same weak bullets ran well with powder coat and no leading. Obviously there is some real promise to that system.

I will take the time to make ingots for all my ingredients, or mix my alloy completely before making any ingots. I will test some of my spacers with staedler method since a brinnel gauge is not in my immediate budget. I will sweeten as needed to get my desired alloy using the calculator. If I get a big batch of lead and a better way to smelt more efficiently, I will start with making a large batch of pistol ready alloy completely ready to go.

I have a large stock of copper chore boy in case of future mishaps, but I hope to never need it.

John L
08-23-2013, 12:10 AM
Ben,
Taking your questions in order:

Lee liquid Alox bullet lubricant. Enough to give the bullets a golden glow. Looks like close to 0.001in thickness added.

0.309 bullets before lube.

Flared case mouth prior to loading powder.

Plain base from Badman Bullets, BHN 15

Have not soaked barrel overnight in Hoppes #9 but have cleaned three separate times since last use. Ran an ammonia soaked patch through immediately after running one through with Hoppes #9. Neither showed any blue after thirty minutes. However out here the patches were dry after thirty minutes. Barrel dripped solution before and after the patch exited the muzzle. I had tried this before and ran into the dry patch circumstance so I really soaked these patches using Tipton bore guide. Put the guns away once after last patch through with Hoppes and same with Ballistol, barrel down on blanket pad. Trying to get rid of all lead. Did try Chore Boy too. Still get five dry patches with good black (I believe lead) smudges, rifling edge shows cleanly.

John L
08-23-2013, 12:13 AM
Ben,
Taking your questions in order:

Lee liquid Alox bullet lubricant. Enough to give the bullets a golden glow. Looks like close to 0.001in thickness added.

0.309 bullets before lube.

Flared case mouth prior to loading powder.

Plain base from Badman Bullets, BHN 15

Have not soaked barrel overnight in Hoppes #9 but have cleaned three separate times since last use. Ran an ammonia soaked patch through immediately after running one through with Hoppes #9. Neither showed any blue after thirty minutes. However out here the patches were dry after thirty minutes. Barrel dripped solution before and after the patch exited the muzzle. I had tried this before and ran into the dry patch circumstance so I really soaked these patches using Tipton bore guide. Put the guns away once after last patch through with Hoppes and same with Ballistol, barrel down on blanket pad. Trying to get rid of all lead. Did try Chore Boy too. Still get five dry patches with good black (I believe lead) smudges, rifling edge shows cleanly.

Have also used Kroil.

Going to mix some of Ed's Red and try that.

Ben
08-23-2013, 09:10 AM
John L

WELCOME TO THE FORUM ! !

Thanks for your reply to the questions.

It is my opinion that the " hub " of your problems lies with the plain base bullets at .309". The bullet must fill the throat properly ( May take a .311 " dia. cast bullet to do that ). At .309", most likely hot gases are skirting around the base of the bullet causing the majority of your leading.

It sounds as if your barrel is clean enough to shoot cast bullets cleanly right now. You've just got to change things a bit in your loading sequence.

Do you own any molds and do you cast your own .30 cal. rifle bullets yet ?

Many of us on the forum shoot 100 rounds or more of our cast loads in .30 cal. rifles without a hint of leading.

Some of that black that you're seeing is graphite and carbon, it is extremity hard to ever get all the carbon out of a barrel, ( I don't even try ).

Some rifles will shoot with Lee Liquid Alox , some won't.

I'd like to see that barrel clean and you load something like the 311291 with a good lube ( Ben's Red comes to mind ) and a gas check , sized to .311".

I'm betting that you could fire 50 rounds of the 311291 load, then push a single clean white cotton patch through your barrel and it would look mirror bright.

Ben

dudel
08-23-2013, 09:31 AM
Outer's foul out is what I use on my high end target guns.

+1 on the Foul Out. Works great.

HABCAN
08-23-2013, 09:51 AM
Ben........your post #61..........exactly what I was going to say, but you beat me to it: +1, Sir.

For extreme leading in a .44 revolver, for instance, we just used to load a charge of seed tapioca and fire that........cleans a bore rather well!

opos
08-23-2013, 10:44 AM
Copper (really copper) Chore Boy strands....I put them around a synthetic fiber bore brush and use a couple drops of Kroil...(I would put Kroil on my cereal if I thought it would help anything...love the stuff)...cleans any light leading right up (I seldom get leading)...then I hit it with Hoppe's or CLP to do the cleaning....works for me.

S.B.
08-23-2013, 07:23 PM
I saw some new fangled bore cleaner in Rifle magazine supposed to be brushless? Some for lead and other for copper.
Steve

John L
08-23-2013, 11:36 PM
Ben, Thanks for your interest.

I am not casting yet, got a bunch of lead though. Thought I might find out if lead would shoot before I got the molds and other equipment.

I was trying to avoid gas checks. Willing to shoot at modest velocities. Gas checks seem too much like jackets or half-jackets.

I slugged the bores on both rifles. The Marlin was slugged twice with the same readings: 0.3095 or 0.310 and 0.3005 or 0.310. The muzzle is tight, a 0.300 ball drops through but a 0.301 hangs up and requires light pressure to move through. That seems a bit deep for Micro-Groove rifling. The Savage gave me 0.308 and 0.300. Just slugged it again and got 0.308 and 0.301. Maybe I got some spring back on that last slug (that's a joke son). The front part of the bullet to be about 0.299 inch diameter with the forward driving band about 0.308. The rear portion back to the lube groove is about 0.309 and the rear driving band with lube shows to be 0.310. I had thought that might work at 1400 fps or slower.

Do not have an alternate lube. The Ben's Red I am familiar with is a cleaning fluid and with just the ATF and kerosene a good oil. Is the lube you refer to a commercial product or mix your own?

I'll see if anybody is peddling .311 bullets. What is the weight on the 311291 bullet? That is a .311 diameter bullet out of a proprietary 291 mold number isn't it?

I got started on the light lead bullets after reading an article on 30-30 varmint loads. Thought the light bullets made a good squirrel load at just less than 1500 fps. Got the ones on top of a limb by just shooting through it. It seems like it was by Paco Kelly. As I remember he put a gas check on it and pushed it out to 3100 fps and called it a good whitetail load.

Ben
08-24-2013, 07:49 AM
John L

What are you taking your cast bullet diameter measurements with ?
________________________________
Your comment :

The Ben's Red I am familiar with is a cleaning fluid

I think you're making reference to Ed's Red.
A home made bore cleaner.

Ben's Red is a cast bullet lube made with the following recipe :

50% beeswax
30% Red, Tacky Lucas High Temp Grease
10% Johnson's Paste Wax
5% Dexron II or Dexron III Trans. Fluid
5% STP Oil Treatment
______________________________

What is the weight on the 311291 bullet?

About 170 - 175 grs.

John L
08-24-2013, 10:33 AM
1 (one) inch Starrett micrometer and a 6 inch caliper for larger measurements.

I found that Montana Bullet Works carries the Lyman 311291 bullet in both linotype and heat treated alloy.

Thank you for the Ben's Red formula. I am not familiar with the Lucas High Temp grease. Will have to look around unless you are selling small quantities or know someone who is.

From what I have been seeing it appears that I should have started with the heavier bullet and worked my way up to the lighter stuff. Almost everyone has a load for the 170 gr bullets and most will provide one for the 150 gr bullets. Very few that I have found post anything about the 135 gr stuff. Would the linotype 170 gr bullet fit your recommendation for starters?

Ben
08-24-2013, 11:15 AM
Here is a link to a group that I fired at 100 yds. with my own 311291's.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?133711-311291-Cup-Point

Not a hint of leading in my rifles.

As to buying Ben's Red, someone on here may have some extra that they would sell you ? You may choose to post in " Want to Buy " that you'd like to purchase some Ben's Red.

The 311291is a great general purpose cast bullet in most .30 cal. rifles ( 30/30, 308 Win., 30/40 Krag, 30-06 , etc )

hunter12
08-28-2013, 06:55 AM
For extreme leading in a .44 revolver, for instance, we just used to load a charge of seed tapioca and fire that........cleans a bore rather well!

How do you do this?

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
08-28-2013, 11:47 PM
I generally avoid leading by using the correct boolit diameter, appropriate for the velocity hardness, appropriate to the velocity boolit lube, quality hand loading and finally, if I've made a mistake, I can clean it up with my home made foul out.

Do a search for home made Outer's foul out. Works extremely well and is also great for cleaning the nasty out of old milsurps and making the bores look nice again if they're able.