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Dale53
02-22-2006, 06:29 PM
Deputy Al;
Couldn't help noticing that you were having problems with your 25/20 Marlin. I bought one the first year that they "returned". I bought a Lyman 257420 GC mould and started to work. I couldn't get ANYTHING to shoot even half decent. I don't know why I hung in there but I was not about to let this thing beat me. I had this ridiculous idea that these rifles were made to shoot cast and I was gonna stick with it until it did.

I tried all of the old powders and recommendations without success. I then thought, looking at the case capacity, that RL-7 ought to work well. 4198, I am sure would do as well but it didn't measure very well. Rl-7 measures extremely well (from my old .222 bench rest days). At any rate, I worked up a load until this bullet was running just under 2200 fps. My bullet is linotype (doesn't use much metal and casts extremely well) and I figured I could run it as fast as a jacketed factory 60 gr even tho' it was about 70 grs with gc. I figured right. I load 14.5 grains. At about the same time I worked this load up, I realized I had 500 rounds of cast thru the bore. This load will stay in the 10 ring of a NRA fifty yard target at fifty yards (ten shot groups). The "X" count is not high but after all this is not supposed to be a target rifle.

Here is the wierd part - I, then decided to see how it would shoot with an intermediate load. 11.0 grs of RL-7 works just as well. Same accuracy just slower. I have not chronoed this load.

Gets even wierder - I needed a squirrel load. 4.0 grs of Unique and it is the best squirrel rifle you can imagine.

So, from not shooting anything, after 500 rounds it will shoot nearly anything at any reasonable velocity. This has become a true "woods rambler rifle".

Inspection of the interior of the barrel with the naked eye shows some sort of "flaw" about the area where the rear sight dovetail is. I have no longer any interest in pursuing this. The rifle shoots so well that I do NOT want another barrel.

Our local club sponsored a lever rifle match (my idea and my match :razz:). We held eight matches a year for three years. You could use ANY lever rifle. Some bought special rifles for this match (.218 Bees and Zippers. etc). It was a practical match including a speed "bear" stage and ran from 25 yards to 100 yards (fifty shot match). My little 25/20 won every match with cast bullets up against the "Big Boys" with their jacketed varmint calibers.

So, perservere. It may still do what you want.

Disclaimer: None of these loads were pressure tested. However, I did load the 14.5 gr (compressed load) in five cases one day (on the range) twenty times without losing a case or loosening a primer pocket. So, I believe that they were well within the strength of my rifle. I would, of course, suggest strongly, that you work up to this load in your rifle. Do NOT try this in a weak action rifle.

YMMV

Dale53

felix
02-22-2006, 07:27 PM
RL7 is one surprising powder, and even more so after they changed the formula to include circa 10 percent nitroglycerin instead of circa 5. It has enough power now to really push some heavy lead, like 300 grainers in 45 colt cases without the peak pressure generated by 296/110 that would tear up the cases. It burns with considerably less average pressure than is required to burn 680 for the same velocity. ... felix

35remington
02-22-2006, 08:31 PM
Dale, I have had some pretty good luck with Reloder 7 as well, and also at full power speeds (1900-2000 with 80 grain group buy gascheck). Fills the case and doesn't give the wide velocity variations that some powders that are normally suggested for the .25-20 have.

Case life is good at that velocity. I should be getting my new custom (NOT T/C) Contender barrel in a month or so. It's set up specifically for cast. I'll post about it here if it's a shooter. After struggling with the TC Custom Shop .25-20 barrel, damn near anything will be an improvement.

9.3X62AL
02-22-2006, 11:24 PM
Dale et al--

Lately, the 25-20 has begun to behave itself a little better--not to the point of 1" at 50 yards, nor is it as good with castings as with the Speer 75 FP's--but its groups are starting to shrink, and I wonder if that same effect you speak of--the 500 rounds downrange--has anything to do with it. I think I've run about 700-750 of cast through mine, and a like number of the j-words. As I posted elsewhere today, I can't feel any tight or loose spots in the bore, and it did not lead the barrel at all when I used plain-based boolits--it just shot them poorly.

The better results began happening when I started driving the boolits harder--the Lyman #257420's past 1800 FPS, and the #257312's past 1500 FPS. I used IMR-4198, IMR-4227, and 2400 in pretty healthy (and unpublished) doses, and RL-7 in less vigorous amounts. I might give the RL-7 another shot at increased weights as you've given, and also WC-680/AA-1680.

Maybe all it needed was a good break-in.......I dunno. Groups with castings are now into the 1.25" to 1.125" range at 50 yards pretty reliably, and the vertical stringing formerly noted has departed--nice round groups have taken their place.

Having a Marlin 94CCL in 32-20 with barely 300 rounds through it--I think I'll be more patient with any accuracy issues it might show, and just keep shooting until its bore gets seasoned/worn in/whatever. It did get 50 j-word factory loads first thing after I bought it in 2004, but those are likely the last j-words or factory ammo the rifle will see.

sundog
02-23-2006, 12:08 AM
I don't remember prexactly who it was that talked me into putting a liner in that ole 25-20 that had been my GF's, but I did (Lee Shaver job) and I just have not shot it alot since then. Beagle even donated some 'holler pints' to try in and they're still on my shooting bench. It'll shoot jacketed just great, but not yet cast - at least anything I've put in it. Maybe just needs to have a bunch more run through it. I've got a wad of jacketed loaded up, so maybe as the wx gets a little nicer now I'll just go get'er done and see what happens. btw, that will be the LAST of the jacketed for that rifle, as I don't have any mo. Got plenty cast though. sundog

9.3X62AL
02-23-2006, 12:15 AM
Sundog--

My eventual goal with the 25-20 was to make J-words a part of history in that rifle, but they shoot SO GOOD--it was tough to set them aside. Now that life is improving downrange, that goal might get reached after all.

sundog
02-23-2006, 12:41 AM
Al, a little reminising, if nobody minds. My rifle is a M92, bought new by my GF right after the War to End All Wars - WWI - after chasing the Kaiser with artillerly (Tony - ya listening?). Anyway it was just a little later on the depression hit and he had several mouths to feed, my dad included. That rifle accounted for small game, deer, and ducks, and kept the family supplied for the duration. Family story was that he would shoot ducks on the water on Great South Bay (south shore of Long Island) and let the tide wash them up. Not very sporting - but did take care of subsistence. Regardless of what anyone says, the 25-20 is effective at taking deer - not very long range - but, it's effective. My uncles used is on several I remember when I was growing up. All they ever used was store bought ammo, and they sure didn't waste any. Now adays, I go out and burn up hundreds of rounds at a time. Times, they sure are achangin'. I'm just real proud to be the custodian of a nice family heirloom -- that still works. Apparently many years ago my GF had obtained a new Lyman tang to mount on the rifle, and it layed in a box for years. It was the old tang style with lock down lever and flip style aperture. Well, I went ahead and mounted it where it belongs. That sight is probably well over 75 years old and is in effect, brand new, right out of the original box. Pretty neat. sundog

Dale53
02-23-2006, 12:54 AM
Sundog;
Happy to hear your story. I love REAL history and subsistence shooting of needy people is truly REAL. Glad to see that you are giving the old girl a new lease on life. If you do much squirrel hunting, try the 4.0 of Unique behind a 257420 GC. It works wonders.

DeputyAl;
I am glad that your rifle is starting to work for you. These are fine rifles. Several of my local club buddies also got Marlins when they saw mine and my shooting buddy. They all responded well to the "prescriptions" I mentioned above. Hope it works well for the rest of you. No guarantees, of course, but our rifles have ALL responded to this diet.

Dale53

9.3X62AL
02-23-2006, 01:39 AM
Neat story, Sundog.

I have a rifle like that, a Marlin Model 27-S (slide action) in 25-20. This was "the little rifle" at the mountain ranch where my dad was born, and I doubt that it was used on deer very much--"the big rifle" (Win '73 in 44-40) got the service calls for venison and black bears. It shoots pretty well--although its sights are at best rudimentary. I'm in the slow process of repairing its various ills at present.

AnthonyB
02-24-2006, 11:02 AM
Corky, yep, I'm listening. Been playing with one of the BD45CMs trying to get the darn thing to cast well. No joy so far - I can't get good consistent fillout. I've cleaned, cleaned again, added vent lines to the sprue plate, ladled, bottom poured. I've done everything but offer a chicken to the casting gods and borrow Buckshot's casting uniform, and that may be my next step. Tony

9.3X62AL
02-24-2006, 11:54 AM
".......borrow Buckshot's casting uniform........"

THAT might be a bridge too far.

wills
02-25-2006, 12:30 AM
http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/bp826.htm

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/bp28.htm

9.3X62AL
02-25-2006, 12:22 PM
Actually, most of the 25-20 rounds get processed on the Ponsness-Warren machine, Wills. Neat old tools.

wills
02-25-2006, 06:15 PM
“Ponsness-Warren” WOW the People’s republic must be good to its retirees!

9.3X62AL
02-25-2006, 09:25 PM
Well, when you pour a lot of money into a pension fund, you get some out of it. :-)

I bought the P-W in 2001 or so, still working (A LOT) at that time. They aren't a lot more than a Rockchucker, really. Mine is the P-200.

pikebait
02-28-2006, 03:07 PM
Does anyone know if the Marlin 27S will handle stout loads of Reloader 7? It doesn't want to shoot well with cast boolits at moderate speeds. It does shoot quite well with J type bullets at low velocity. I just would like to shoot my "own" bullets accurately. I would not want to harm my Marlin with too much pressure....

9.3X62AL
02-28-2006, 04:43 PM
I'm unsure of the Model 27-S strength, but I'm sure that 1890's-level loads (86 grainers at 1450 FPS) won't hurt it at all. I don't plan to run the 27-S any harder than that. I don't have enough experience with RL-7 in the 25-20 to give an opinion of its performance, either. Sorry about that!