Home Built Volcanic Pistol And Ammo

[Rick459]

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=3;t=22531

[briang]

You need to be logged in to see that :(

[Old Ironsights]

You have to be more than a "general" member too...

[EMC45]

I used to look at that site all the time, then I joined with a password and user name. After that it wouldn't let me look at the galleries and half the forums and pages I can no longer look at.

[CRM]

It's not finished, but she is starting to look like a Volcanic.

It shoots a highly modified 40 S+W

[Old Ironsights]

How utterly cool... :cool:

[Dutchman]

With all the go-fast black plastic rifles and sheet metal Ak's its nice to see something like this. I wish you'd share some more photos and keep us in the loop. Its beautiful.


Dutch

[deltaenterprizes]

Volcanic ammo was a little different than that, yours should have more power!

[Old Ironsights]

Man, what I want is one of those in .22 S/L/LR...

Did you start with a set of schematics?

[CRM]

Volcanic ammo was a little different than that, yours should have more power!

The original Volcanic had 56 ft lbs of energy, mine has over 300, depending what load I want to shoot.


Ironsights, I designed this gun from scratch using pictures of the original Volcanic. The throw of the Bolt allows a Cartrige to be .812 lg. I believe a 22 Long Rifle is too long to cycle through this action.

The only restriction I put on myself designing this action was that it have the same outside dimensions as the original. As it turned out this was not easy because of the very short "Rocket Ball" the original shot.

In order to shoot something longer this action would have to be totally re-designed, and not use the toggle link system.

Dutchman, I will share more pictures and information with you Guys. Thanks for the invitation.

[Old Ironsights]

Interesting. I'd love to see a pic of your cartridge next to a .22 LR.

How "highly modified" is the .40?

[CRM]

First thing I do is cut about 1/4" of a fired 40 S+W. Then I swedge the inside out for room to put the powder and bullet. (the factory case thickens down toward the bottom) Then I turn the outside stright again, trim them to .545 to .550 long. Load em and shoot em.

These baby's are loaded with Berry's Copper Plated 135 grain bullets being kicked out by 4 grains of "Bullseye". I am getting an average of 1040 FPS here.

[Old Ironsights]

Wow. :shock:

[Hobie]

Oh, that is just too cool!

Thanks OI for leading us over here.

[Hobie]

You know, your cartridge has an application for a sub-compact pistol like the LCP but BIGGER caliber. OOoooooooooooooooooooooooooh yeah!

[HeavyMetal]

Hey!

You can call the cartridge the 40 PLG ( Pygmy Lever Gun)

[briang]

That is cool, thanks for sharing

[rjohns94]

That is very kewl. Thanks oi for the link

[CRM]

GEE!!!!

OI is gathering a crowd to look at this thing. (at least 2 )

I did not realize so many Folks would be interested in this kind of thing.

For those of you who bothered to walk across the road to see this, I want to thank you.

I am honored.

Tomorrow, late in the day, there will be more pictures and details.

Thanks for visiting.

[spurrit]

That's pretty danged cool!

[JIMinPHX]

That's VERY danged cool.

[sharpshooter3040]

It's not finished, but she is starting to look like a Volcanic.

It shoots a highly modified 40 S+W

Do you have a set of working drawings? Hint, Hint

very nice work
Doug

[SwedeNelson]

If you dont have drawings - More Pictures!

Great job.
And a fun project.

Swede Nelson

[45nut]

crm, you have entered a group of folks that genuinely appreciate such endeavors and respect the work behind the final result..that said,, is it finished? grips and such?

[CRM]

This is more than Cool,
the Volcanic is where it all began,
Lever Guns that is.

OK, I made this barrel from a bar of "ETD 150", you can "google" it and see what I'm talking about. It is somewhat like 4140 pre-hard, except stronger and easier to get a good finish on.

The bore is .393 and the groove is .400, 1 turn in 14" left hand twist.

The barrel is 8" Lg. The Magazine will hold 8 Cartridges, with one in the chamber, you have 9 shots before reloading.

I used "Smith and Wesson's" Toggle Link idea so that my "Volcanic" would be like theirs, except is different in design and much stronger.

This is a big gun, it is 15.5" long. I was startled when I first the barrel put in the frame. (remember the first time you saw a Colt Walker?)

As I said, this is where it all becan. The "Volcanic" was enlarged to become a "Henry" the "Henry was improved to become the "Winchester 66", the 66 was improved to become the "73", the "73" was enlarged to be a "76"! By now, Mr Browning and some other Boys were building radically different Lever Guns that were much smaller, stronger and could cycle much larger cartridges than the Toggle Link system could handle.

So the Volcanic is all but lost in the pages of history, but it sure is a beautiful gun.

Here I show you my Volcanic alongside a replica "Henry".

[Kuato]

Just added it to my "Damn, I wish I had one of those" list..

[CRM]

As I said, the idea and principle of of my Toggle Link is identical to the ones Smith + Wesson used. Here I show you the Action closed, and open.

As with all lever guns that I have seen, swinging the lever forward, extracts and ejects the spent shell, raised a fresh cartridge to be inserted in the chamber, and cocks the hammer. Bringing the lever back, inserts the cartridge in the chamber, locks the bolt, and now the trigger is ready to be pulled, firing the gun.

[CRM]

My gun loads like the original Volcanic and Henry. I changed the design for it to be easier for me to build, but the idea is the same.

Pull the cartridge pusher up and into the Spring Chamber at the muzzle, rotate it around exposing the magazine for loading. Drop in the cartridges until full (8) and rotate the spring chamber back around and you are loaded and ready to go.

Here she is, opened up and ready to fill.

Here she is, loaded with 5 cartridges. That's all I had, I went shooting this morning.

[CRM]

crm, you have entered a group of folks that genuinely appreciate such endeavors and respect the work behind the final result..that said,, is it finished? grips and such?


No, I am still working on it. It looks like it's going to be 3 or 4 more weeks before it's all done.

There are some things I will do differently on the next one I build.

You Guys asking for drawings.

Have you ever built a gun from scratch?

I don't mean a kit.

Something more than a single shot.

This is not an easy gun to build.

If you are good enough to build this gun, then you don't need me or my drawings,

But, show me what you can do, and I will help you.

I may publish this design in a book someday.

[Dutchman]

By now, Mr Browning and some other Boys were building radically different Lever Guns that were much smaller, stronger and could cycle much larger cartridges than the Toggle Link system could handle.

So the Volcanic is all but lost in the pages of history, but it sure is a beautiful gun.


I'm glad you didn't say the toggle link was all but lost to history [smilie=s: .

http://images46.fotki.com/v1493/photos/2/28344/6456804/us000753414003b-vi.jpg

I guess Mr.Browning just set the toggle link aside for a while and hoped everybody would forget about it, ya'think?

http://images49.fotki.com/v1495/photos/2/28344/6456804/_E_BrowningAutomaticRifle1929b-vi.jpg

[Dutchman]

I hate it when something provokes me to start looking for something I knew I'd seen... exactly when Browning left the toggle link behind...

You see how close together these two patents were. Very close. I think this first one is a conceptual model. He was working towards a box magazine that could be loaded with a 5 rd enbloc clip.
He was still using the toggle link in this model.

http://images46.fotki.com/v1492/photos/2/28344/6456804/us000486272004b-vi.jpg

But just some months later the design is revised, refined, to use a vertical sliding locking bolt, B in this image.

http://images49.fotki.com/v1496/photos/2/28344/6456804/us000492459002b-vi.jpg

There were two other inventors at Winchester at this same time, Wm.Mason and Thomas Bennet, who were filing patents like mad men on exactly the same type of rifle, a lever action box magazine clip fed..

And the winner was...

...the 1895 Winchester.

I owned one of the take-down .30-06 models long ago. A most beautiful rifle.

http://images44.fotki.com/v1490/photos/2/28344/6456804/549345001BrowningMagazine1895b-vi.jpg

[jhrosier]

CRM,
I was very impressed by the first phtos.
When I found that you had made your own barrel, I was in awe.
This level of skill and craftsmanship is very rare nowadays.

Very well done!:drinks:

Jack

[docone31]

An Uber-Opus to be remembered.
Bravo.

[briang]

I am in awe, she is beautiful

[CRM]

Thanks for all the very nice compliments Guys. I am glad you enjoy seeing something different.

And a big thank you to Dutchman for your research into Mr Browings departure from the Toggle Link system. You know he was the inventor of the Model 94 Winchester. Such a small and strong action that could shuffle and shuck long cartridges such as the 30-30, 38-55, and many more. (also the Model 92)

Dutchman, I have been looking for information on the Remington, Rider, magazine pistol. Where do you find all those patent drawings?

[Beekeeper]

I was looking through some old books I have and found this.
It is an original advertisment for the volcanic and thought you might get a kick out of it

[freedom475]

Ok Now you've done it.... Where do we sign up for the Group Buy!:mrgreen:

That is a fine job you have done...that looks so fun. Thats impressive ballistics from such a small round. What kind of pressure do you think you are running at?

[Dutchman]

Dutchman, I have been looking for information on the Remington, Rider, magazine pistol. Where do you find all those patent drawings?

There are two good sources for US Patent drawings. The first is the US Patent Office database. Those images are all in .tff format and print out nice and clear at 8x10".

This is the index for Class 42 which covers firearms... but not all firearms. Each of these categories has sub-categories and they have sub-categories. If you don't know how a patent was classified you won't find it with anything but dumb luck. Pre-1972 patents have very narrow search parameters. You can search by the patent number and a few other criteria. But its very time consuming and confusing when you first start out.
http://www.uspto.gov/go/classification/uspc042/sched042.htm

Let me give you an example. The Erskine Allin Trapdoor conversions are classified by the function of the breechblock. "Upwards & forward" is subcategory 36 so it would be 42/36 and that would give you ALL "upward & forward" patents from Day 1 to a few months ago. Click on the little P in the red box to the left. If you click on the "upward & forward" you'll get an explanation of the patent category with the numbers of subcategories. I'm sure it was a woman who thought all this up just to irritate men.

There are 66 entries in category 42/36. The No.1 is Patent Number 610. Its indexed under two categories: 42/36 and 42/39.5 . You click on the number and it takes you to an intermediate page. You'll see a box with "images". Click on "images" and it takes you to the .tff images of the original patent which in this case is H.&C.Daniels patent of Feb.15, 1838 for a breech loading rifle. How does the breech lock function? Upwards and forwards. http://tinyurl.com/d3pdpw

Many patents are indexed in multiple categories.

The other source is: http://www.google.com/patents?id=7uBoAAAAEBAJ&dq=joseph+rider

Google Patents will allow searches just like regular Google. Using keywords or combinations of keywords. You can also bracket multiple words with quote marks like this: "Joseph Wesson" revolver . It locks together Joseph and Wesson. The main problem with Google Patent lies in the people Google hired to index the patent titles. They were, to a great degree, NON-ENGLISH SPEAKING persons. It can get real funny with some of the indexed titles. The patent will come up but the way it was titled for index will leave you scratching your head.

I spent almost 2 years working the US Patent Office database. I have collected over 3,000 files, not 3,000 patents. I save the entire patent, drawings and print. Some patents are a couple pages. Some are 20 pages. I have everything for the patents I collected.

If you are unfamiliar with either of these patent databases and want some patents you can email me through the forum and I'd be happy to do the search for you. As long as you join in THIS forum with your wonderous manufacturies I'll do this as a favor as I enjoy viewing the various projects, too.

I'm very familiar with John Browning's patents. I've read his biography by Curt Gentry twice. Did you know along with the developement of the 1895 Winchester starting in 1892 he was also working on a slide action rifle that functioned a box magazine? Eliphalet Remington is another who's bio is very interesting. He had quite a business model while he was alive. It promoted a level of creativity unseen elsewhere in the firearms manufacturing world.

My database has a lot of cartridge and cartridge making patents and goes up to the Dillion 450 press. Isaac Milbanks, Rollin White, James Paris Lee (and associates), Browning, Paul Mauser, Joseph Wesson and a whole bunch of others. Scope mounts, rear sights, breech mechanisms, cartridge heading. Whichever way my curiosity went I followed until I ran out of curiosity. I have Hiram Berdan's rolling block patent. Everybody and his brother had a rolling block patent for the 1870-72 Ordnance Dept Rifle Trials. (carbine trials were in 1866).

http://images46.fotki.com/v1492/photos/2/28344/6456804/Rider_1871_Magazine_Pistol-vi.jpg

[spurrit]

That repeating derringer looks interesting.

[sharpshooter3040]

No, I am still working on it. It looks like it's going to be 3 or 4 more weeks before it's all done.

There are some things I will do differently on the next one I build.

You Guys asking for drawings.

Have you ever built a gun from scratch?

I don't mean a kit.

Something more than a single shot.

This is not an easy gun to build.

If you are good enough to build this gun, then you don't need me or my drawings,

But, show me what you can do, and I will help you.

I may publish this design in a book someday.


Look at my avitar I built this gatling 22 short I had some prints but I did all the machine work myself. all the dividing head calculations and so on ,so yes I know how to scratch build. I have built some darned fine rifles also. This type of project has always fasinated me.

thanks
Doug

[CRM]

Doug, (sharpshooter) That is outstanding.

Then you can fully understand the time and effort that goes into a project such as this.

As for me.

I feel a responsibility for the accuracy and quality of the drawings that I submit.

There is extra pressure and effort giving someone else drawings for my designs.

The gun you see here is a practist piece. I did this one to learn if I could do it. And also learn what works and what don't work.

I will build this gun again and a rifle to go with it.

I sincerely want to see others excited about "Volcanics".

Many times in the past, I put myself out to prepare drawings and text, at the request of others, and nothing happened.

I don't want to do that again.

Thank you for bringing that Gattling Gun to my attention.

I believe you can do this.

So, I am delighted to make a deal with you, here on open forum.

I will post a drawing here in PDF format. If you or anyone else will build this part. I will post another, and another, until the Gun is done.

I realy want to do this.

As I am a very rich man in talent and skill, but it was all given to me. It is now my turn to give to others.

Let it be after I finish this one ( about 3 more weeks).

I am Charlie.

[sharpshooter3040]

Hi Charlie,

Its a pleasure to meet you. That is a very kind offer. I have developed my talents by doing and not giving up. I work with conventioal equipment because that is what I know. CNC is beyond my capability or I should say my finiancial capability. If I look at a print and have measurments I can make it, I can even make the tools to make it. That's just the way I was taught..... get it on paper first. If I have a tangeble object to measue I can draw the blue print. There are several projects I am wanting to complete in my lifetime Full size Gatling (I have the copies of the colt blue print of 1905), I just have to get my forge set up to cast the breech casing. The two barreled gardner is another, your volcanic is extremely exciting and yes I would love the opportunity to learn more.

Thanks I am eager to hear from you

Doug

[CRM]

Thanks I am eager to hear from you

Doug[/QUOTE]


You can count on it.



Side plates are next.

[CRM]

And here they are.

Grips, rear sight, and outside contureing is all that's left.

[dominicfortune00]

Have you thought of making the next one in modified 45 caliber?

Very nice machine work on the Volcanic.

[leadeye]

Very nice work, I will be following this here with a great deal of interest.:-D

[sharpshooter3040]

Thanks I am eager to hear from you

Doug


You can count on it.



Side plates are next.[/QUOTE]

Hi Charlie,

I have been studying the 1854 improvements patent drawing. I see they have a dovetail on the bolt face to remove the refuse metal or priming plate and the next round coming into battery pushes the spent one out of the way. Now that you will have an actual spent cartridge to remove from the chamber what extraction and ejection method are you using? A raised boss on the boltface to capture the head and an extractor/ejector similar to the 66 or 73 Winchester? I know space in the carrier well is very limited.

Starting to get hooked on this idea,

Doug

[CRM]

You got it, extraction is identical to the "Henry", "66", and "73".

[spurrit]

What machinery is necessary to do this kinda work? Once I get moved up to Montana, where I can experiment with whatever I want to, I'd like to build my own '73, and a few other, simple things.

I just think it'd be neat as hell to be able to hunt with a rifle I built. Sure, I know there are muzzleloader kits, but that's not really building anything, it's just fitting and assembly. Basically, it's plumbing.

[oldtoolsniper]

Holy poo! A top punch kicked my butt!

[Johnch]

Oh lord
I have acess to all the needed equipment

But I lack 3 things

The time
The skill
And the bigie ......the ability to take the time needed to do that quality of work


It apears you are well on the way to making a great pistol

John

[HotGuns]

Hey ! I can build from scratch! I want to build that pistol. It is pure artwork.
Not many things catch my eye, but that one did.

I think you've seen my 10 shot .50 already already on homegunsmith, in case you are wondering.

If I had some prints, I'd build that Volcanic right now. That gun is beautifull, very classy looking.

[CRM]

Monday, I will post (1) drawing here in PDF, for you boys that want to have a go at it.

[CRM]

:smile:

[HeavyMetal]

Super nice work!

[docone31]

That is a magnificent piece of craftsman ship.
Bravo!!!!!

[leadman]

That is an amazing piece of work! I love old style firearms, they have class that is just lacking with the black guns.

[SwedeNelson]

That is one fantastic work of art.
Have some pictures that I have
collected of Volcanic's (cant afford the
real thing) and that is up there with
the best. Looking forward to seeing
your .pdf.

Great job.
Swede Nelson

[Griff]

OI, thanks for linkin' this over at Leverguns...

CRM,
Suberb workmanship! As a Winchester fan... and toggle link lover, that is about the coolest project I could imagine!http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/sass93/Smilies/bowing2.gif

[CRM]

I tried up-loading a PDF, but something about the file is too large.:-(

[Cap'n Morgan]

That's one nice gun! Something to be proud of...

My dream is to build my own Hagn singleshot rifle:
http://www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com/technicalinfo.htm
It's an absolutely brilliant design; simple and yet sophisticated. Extremely strong and not a single visible screw or pin - it was love at first sight :-D

A few years ago I spent a lot of evenings constructing this 3D model based on the drawings and pictures on the website. I think I got it nailed pretty good, I have all the necessary machines at my disposal, CNC lathe and mill. Wire EDM and grinders, not to mention more than thirty years of tool making experience. Only thing missing is the time, but one of these days... :-?

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8760/assembly2.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=assembly2.jpg)

[scrapcan]

Morgan,

I would say that if you make one you better make 10. I have heard good things about it's looks also.

[willyboy]

Saweet!When do you go into production? I tried to talk the folks over at Henry [makers of the Big Boy,Goldenboy ,and floating AR7 type survival rifle] into makeing these awhile ago ,and they were not all that interested.Seemed a natural to me,as many of the parts already on their assembly line could be modified to work.

[Silicon Wolverine]

Beyond AWESOME dude. thats bringing history back to life.

SW

[Marvin S]

I like it. Don't have much use for plastic guns so this is good. Can't wait for more pictures.

[briang]

Just in case you missed it.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55133

[HABCAN]

That Volo is an example of master craftsmanship executed by a Master Craftsman. Sir, we are honored! Thank you for sharing.

[CRM]

That Volo is an example of master craftsmanship executed by a Master Craftsman. Sir, we are honored! Thank you for sharing.


GEE!

What a nice thing to say.

I'm not sure that I am a Master, I just care a whole lot about what I build.

My day job is "Machine Designer",


Here she is, all "Rust Blued" with some stuff I got from Brownell's. I will post some pictures of some groups that it will shoot in the next few days.

I am glad you enjoy seeing something different.

[45nut]

still drooling here,, fantastic work.

[docone31]

Dang Dude!

Wonderful.

[jnovotny]

What do we start the bidding at?

[JIMinPHX]

What ever happened to the PDF of the drawings?

[Multigunner]

Fantastic workmanship.

I would have liked to have seen an updated version of the rocket ball ammunition, but there would have to be improvements in the original design for the breech to seal properly.

years ago I ran across photos of a Marlin .22 Lever action that had been cutdown to make a crude but effective handgun, no where near as nice as this reproduction of the volcanic.

A volcanic like lever action in .22 short might work. Also .32 S&W might fit the action.
A proprietary dedicated cartridge is probably the best way to go though.

[phatman]

Hello Charlie,

I realy love your gun, but more inportantly I love the fact that a guy had the vision and dedication to build it.
In this world of guns just being thrown together with no love of the craft, I was beginning to think that true Old World craftmanship had died off.

Your pistol very nearly brought tears to my eyes.
It is a beutiful and romantic turn of the page, back to a chapter of our history that has been nearly lost and almost forgotten.

Thank You very much,
John

[lead-1]

Great looking piece of art, I am eagerly waiting for pics of your targets.

[ANeat]

Beautiful work, Im also one who would be interested in prints/drawings. Free would be great but like the gatling gun plans out there, paying a fair price for a quality set isnt a problem.

[Willbird]

I'm game to make one part at a time. I have a bridgeport mill, a dividing head, and a lathe or two, and a shaper.

Bill

[JIMinPHX]

Is it just my imagination, or did two different people build these things. I thought that I saw pictures of one with a brass receiver a few months ago. Was that another one, or just this same one in a different light?

[railfancwb]

"I'm glad you didn't say the toggle link was all but lost to history."

Wasn't (isn't) the toggle link used in some machine gun design?

[Von Dingo]

"I'm glad you didn't say the toggle link was all but lost to history."

Wasn't (isn't) the toggle link used in some machine gun design?

Maxim pattern guns.

Charlie, I'm very behind the curve, but thank you for raising the bar. Far from my skill set, beautiful work.