50 cal hawken shooting poorly

[brianintheup]

I have a TC 50 cal that was my grandfathers. I took my first deer with it. I like the gun but it doesn't shoot constantly any more.

What are my options:
New barrel
Hand lapping the barrel
Rebarreling to a 52 or 54 cal
making a smooth bore muzzleloader

Open for options.

Brian

[fishhawk]

well first i would ask what are you shooting out of it RB or them long things? if it's RB i would try a couple things thicker patch differnt lube and yes even dIffenrt RB material (little harder than pure) also what you useing for powder i never had any luck with the fake BP but just to say it doesn't shoot consistantly is not enough info. steve k

[brianintheup]

I shoot RB I use pyrodex powder. I have taken deer out to 100 yards with the gun. The gun has a 1:60. The gun sat for 4 years while I was at college and then when I came home I found that the barrel was all nasty. I cleaned it good again and it hasn't shot good since. I have tried several different patch lubes: TC boar butter, toilet bowel wax ring, bee's wax, ext. I haven't tried different patch material or thicker patches. I was thinking of getting a mold and casting some RB. Right now I have hornady RB.

[fishhawk]

funny thing with patch lube. i have a 45 flinter with a green mountain barrel along with other muzzle loaders all the others shoot great with Crisco as patch lube but not that 45 with Crisco as patch lube i could not keep 3 shots on a 8 inch paper plate at 30 yds off a bench! i was realy thinking about tradeing it to some one that i shoot against. then i thought try a differnt lube tried bore butter now it will print clover leafs at 30 yds off the bench. had another guy useing pyrodex as powder in a TC shot all over the place took some FFg out with him and it shot groups not patterns he tossed the pyrodex in the trash right there. guess what i'm saying is don't be to quick to say it's time for a new barrel. steve k

[Underclocked]

Are you using 4 year old Pyrodex in the rifle? If so, try a new jug.

[brianintheup]

The powder is probably closer to 10 years old. But it works fine in my 54 cal. I was thinking of getting some new powder I'll give that a try too.

[405]

I noticed you said that TC has a 60" twist. Was it a TC roundball gun from the get go? Most of the standard TCs have/had a 48" twist. But, the 60" twist is more roundball friendly and would be a plus. Agree that it's not time for a new barrel yet... kind of hard to wear one out unless some bad maintenance or cleaning along the way.

A few things I'd try if it were mine.

-> COMPLETELY clean bore
-> 490" ball
-> 495" ball
-> a couple diff. thicknesses of patch
-> BP, not one of the substitutes
-> clean between shots
-> lighter charge 40-50 gr FFg
-> lubed felt wad over powder
-> light moose milk for patch lube
-> better sights

[brianintheup]

What do you suggest for better sights. Right now i have the standard sights.

[405]

There's been a thread running adjacent to this one about peep sights for a similar gun. Really any tang mounted aperture/peep sight that fits right and has some adjustment capability.... mostly for elevation since the windage can be taken care of with the front sight. I assume the front is dovetailed. The rear tang sight doesn't have to be 4"+ tall and $400+ like those used on the long range BPCR guns. :)

TC offered a fairly simple one for mounting right to the tang on their guns. Also I imagine the front is either a very coarse blade or bead type. OK for hunting at closer ranges but difficult to shoot accurately at small bull targets when working on loads or shooting for best accuracy. Might try a little thinner blade or bead front sight along with the aperture rear sight. Really good eyesight can compensate some with the regular open sights but in most cases the aperture sight allows greater accuracy potential across the board.

[largom]

I gather that your gun shot good before you left for school. You stated that after sitting for 4 yrs. the barrel looked "nasty".
The first thing I would do is lap the barrel with JB on a bore mop, at least 75-100 strokes, changeing/adding JB as required. THEN I would test different lubes and patching material.
Larry

[I Haines]

Brian,

How bad is the accuracy? What kind of groups from a bench at 25 yards? Are the shots stringing vertically or all over the place? What do your patches look like? Knowing these things will help diagnose your problem. IH

[brianintheup]

I Haines

I'll let you know tomorrow. I'll take the gun and shoot it again (from a bench) and post the results tomorrow night.

Brian

[brianintheup]

The shots are numbered the third shot missed. All shots were from 25 yards off a rest. After three shots I ran a cleaning brush down the barrel. I used 60 grs of Pyrodex with a hornady 50 cal round ball on a TC pre-lubed patch. Each square on the target is 1 inch.

http://s722.photobucket.com/albums/ww223/brianintheup/th_bp-1.jpg

[northmn]

A TC with 50-60 grains at 25 yards should blow a big hole off a rest. Its also tending to climb a little. As to pyrodex. I tried some in my 50 with a old Montana barrel and had similar results and does not care for 777 either. It really likes black powder. About the only pyrodex I have had any luck with is the Select. You may need to look at the breech system, if the bore got kind of "nasty" as the fake powders may not be igniting evenly. Remove the nipple and any cleanout screws and do what you can with pipe cleaners or even steel wool.

Northmn

[brianintheup]

Northmn

I already cleaned the barrel good. Took the the nipple of and used steel wool.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

You could have the barrel rebored or relined to a variety of calibers, smooth or rifled, and likewise regular or gain twist. I have posted Mr. Robert Hoyt's adress here before as he is a recognized master. PM me if you are interested in his contact info. BvT

[Geraldo]

The first question is always the shooter. Not to be obnoxious, but what do your 25 yard groups with other iron sighted rifles look like?

Second question is what kind of rest are you shooting off of? Shooting off a steady bench is not the same as leaning over a truck hood.


If the answers are that you shoot other iron sighted rifles better and your rest is steady, then look to the rifle. Before I would re-barrel or re-bore, I'd try new black powder or possibly Select. I would also try different patch/ball/lube.

The type of sight on this barrel shouldn't matter at that range unless you've had drastic vision changes. As you age, that will change, but it sounds like you've got a long way to go before the rear sight gets fuzzy.

How is the rifling at the crown?

[Hanshi]

I'd definitely use real black powder only. Experimenting with lubes is a good idea as is different patches. If your barrel isn't badly pitted and the rifling is still pretty sharp, it should shoot well with some reasonable combination.

I also agree you might want to check your shooting technique and rest.

[725]

Like most of the above and have varied success with almost all of them. Just see what works. Going to take some range time. One of the best, as has been suggested, is go to a .495 RB and try different patches & lubes. After lapping with aggressive and then less aggressive grits, how does the barrel feel? Smooth from end to end? Pitting isn't always fatal to accuracy, but rarely helps. Any snags from recovered patches? Are they being grabbed by barrel iregularities? If it turns out to be beyond repair, go to Hoyt and have a smooth bore made out of it and then buy a new Green Mountain replacement round baller barrel. It all costs money, which goes against my nature, but you end up with a 20 ga (or so) smooth bore and a new rifle barrel. Kind of covers all the bases.

[mooman76]

How tight are the loads going in? are they going in easy or hard to get in? Also look for your fired patches and see what shape they are in. A few small holesin the patch aren't neccissarily a bad thing but you don't want large holes or a shreaded patch. Try some good heavy hard to load patches and see if they help. You could still try lapping the barrel if you don't mind the work. If you have some pieces of an old BDU uniform, they are usually real tight but doable down a barrel and shoot good and are strong.

[405]

Agree with above posts.... generally.
At 25 yards most any combo should shoot an inch or two or less. That group is something like 5-6"! Something is "cattywompus".

Lapping will likely help some if bore is rough. But lapping will never re-create a new bore.

Tighter bore fit with larger ball and good, strong patch like pillow ticking may help.

Said it once will say it again, try cleaning between shots. (I know some will say fooey but in reality if it is a hunting gun it should go afield with the thought that the one, first shot is the ONE that counts and that should be with a clean bore.)

Last resort.... instead of rebore or reline my inclination would be to invest in a new semi drop-in type barrel. Not too hard to fit to gun.

Anyway, good luck!

some added afterthoughts :roll:
I tried Pyrodex, etc. when they first came out. Gave up quickly because they proved to be inferior to real BP for this type shooting. Hard, caked fouling and higher, more erratic pressures to name two reasons.

I've shot an awful lot of different muzzleloaders over the years. Mostly mine and some belonging to others. Some of them had really rough bores some very excellent bores, some fast twist, some slow twist, some factory, some custom, some old originals.

Of all those only one was a lost cause for reasonable accuracy. That was a TC 54 Renegade that a friend had that wouldn't shoot. He let me try. I tried EVERTHING! It had a nice smooth bore. About the time I was ready to give it back to him in disgust I checked for barrel straightness. Bingo! it had a bowed barrel! Probably run over by a vehicle by whomever sold it to him.

Not that that a bent barrel is the case with your gun but that it turned out to be the only one that wouldn't shoot. Even the poor bore ones could be reasonable. The roughest bores, if they had some rifling left could be improved by drastic measures. One had both gross tool chatter marks and pits (a classsic sewer pipe). I just kept shooting roundballs patched with patching smeared with 220 grit lapping compound. Shoot, clean, shoot, clean and so on. After about 20 shots I finished it off with some hand lapping with very fine grit and JB compound and tight fitting cleaning patches. Shot pretty well after that. The slower twist/roundball type bores seem to respond better to lapping and drastic measures than the faster twist/conical bores and the slower twist bores seem to be more tolerant of bore imperfections.

[brianintheup]

Thanks for all the info I will shoot with my 54 today if I get a chance and post that target. I think I will try a combination of what has been posted. Lapping and different powder (although I have used Pyrodex for at 17 years without any problems. My second deer was at a 100 yards with this same gun 80 grs of RS Pyrodex. I tracked it a ways but got it.

[shdwlkr]

Something else to try as I have a TC 50 cal hawken and that is to switch to 3f real black powder and 30 grains and see what it does.
mine likes .490 rb and .018 pillow ticking or you could go to .495 and a thinner patch and bore butter and 30 grains of 3f real black, triple 7, pryodex RS and it shoots just fine if I do my part.
From all the posts I would think that what happened it is rusted from not being cleaned when you went to college. So now you need to start back the beginning as if it is a new rifle to you as the barrel most likely took some damage from the sitting. so start with what ever powder, patching, ball and lube you want and make sure every shot is loaded and shot the same and then change the cap and nothing else fire a group now change something else and see what happens. Do this very carefully and keep track of what you changed and sooner or later you are going to hit on something that works.
Was your powder where the sun could hit on it? If you you just might have some bad powder. I have some pyrodex that is almost as old as you have been using it and it still works.
I also have a TC 54 and several others in case you think I am new at this I have been shooting black powder for the better part of 40 plus years and I don't know it all and hope not to ever. the .54 likes either a .530 or .535 round ball, .018 pillow ticking and bore butter and 30-80 grains of 3f. Yes I use 3f now in all my muzzle loaders and it works just fine.

[I Haines]

Have you retrieved any of your patches? With groups that large, I'll bet that they are torn or in pieces. Use a felt marker to number your patches in the order that they are shot. Place the marked side next to the ball and you'll still be able to read it after it's fired. Maybe you can post a pic of some them? IH

[docone31]

I have had really good luck with my wife's really old CVA .45 long rifle. The bore was in really lousey shape. Crud, Rust!, lots of it. It had an habit of not firing through the nipple. I got it with a ball in the bore.
What I did,
I made a patch from ticking, smeared Clover on the patch. I use .440 with ticking. I fired a few, at least as long as the rifle fired. I later filed down the nipple threads, it also had solid crud in the nipple.
At any rate, I fired the patched loads with Clover on the patch. I got a nice shiney bore! A little tougher to load than my lube.
Still got to dial in the load, but, shiney, slick bore. With the jag, and some patches, couldn't feel any rust. No residue from the Clover either. After firing the Clover, I did fire some plain lubed patches.
Seemed to help.

[HPT]

Brianintheup,

Have a look at your muzzle. Have you worn away part of the rifling? I've had 2 muzzleloaders that accuracy took a dive from funneling out the muzzle from contact with the ramrod during loading & cleaning. In both cases accuracy returned after shortening the barrels, although it's a bit of work. If you find this & can't do the work yourself might be cheaper to get a new barrel, especially if the bore is pitted by now too.

In any case, use some kind of ramrod guide to prevent muzzle wear.