Suitability of cast bullets for self defense

[Tokarev]

These 45 cal bullets were fired during the late weeks of this winter and recovered by me from thawing clay of the berms.

They exhibit no signs of expansion from meeting with frozen clay at 25 yards. That means they will not expand in the human body too IMHO.

http://www.tallmanindustries.ca/images/range_lead.jpg

At the same time I recovered many a softpoint bullet that expanded and some of them turned inside out (probably the hollowpoints). No pictures as they would be too messy to clean, just take my word on it. Even the jacketed bullets were deformed much more than those cast ones above.

[rbuck351]

You are right , they won't expand. But, they are already 45, how much bigger do they need to be? Use a bullet with a large meplat and they will work very well as man stoppers without further expansion.

[geargnasher]

I managed to get my hands on a Lyman 452374 "new" hp mould and it truly lives up to its "Devastator" title, I have worked up a defense load using 6.1 grains of Universal and a 10 bh boolit and they turn into nice little 1.2" disks with 100% weight retention and goes through 3 wet phone books leaving a 4" hole. I couldn't ask for more from an automatic handgun, not even using those other projectiles with holes in their fronts (they leave their shiny jackets behind most of the time). You can't get better energy delivery on target with medium-velocity, controllable loads than with soft lead alloy boolits in hp form in my very humble and inexperienced opinion. I know there are a slew of defensive projectiles out there that are very effective for different defensive situations (for example bullets that won't go through walls and such) and you can make these too, with plastic sabot slugs, #7-1/2 magnum shot and some epoxy if you are into rolling your own. I just trust my Kimber and some good, well-tested Homemade boolits.

Btw, you may not be impressed, but I, for one, would most definitely not want to get hit by any of the boolits in your picture, even if they don't expand! Remember we fought (and thank god and many good men WON) 2 world wars with ball ammo!

Gear

[trickyasafox]

I don't know- I would think some soft cast lead bullets would give you all the expansion you could want- especially HP soft lead.

I didn't cast them, but the 38's that I have in my bedside gun are 158gr LSWCHP +P federals. I bet they open up just fine :)

[BoolitBill]

I am no expert. But listening to some of the experts they say you cannot rely on expansion from any bullet at handgun velocity in human tissue. There are just too many variables. So with a handgun, I rely on a .45 or .44 caliber. Even if it does not expand, at almost a half inch going in, something is going to get hurt.

[kodiak1]

45 hole or two should let a fair amount of leakage out of it one would think.
Cast bullets sure put a stop on Bear, Deer and Buffalo.

If I was in a pinch and had to use the lead bullets I would shoot first and ask questions later.

My 2 cents Ken.

[geargnasher]

I am no expert. But listening to some of the experts they say you cannot rely on expansion from any bullet at handgun velocity in human tissue. There are just too many variables. So with a handgun, I rely on a .45 or .44 caliber. Even if it does not expand, at almost a half inch going in, something is going to get hurt.

+1 on that.

One other advantage that bears mentioning to using your own boolits is you can practice to your hearts content with the loads you might one day have to depend on for your life and not spend a fortune doing it. After all, if we can't hit what we're aiming at in a panic situation because we weren't proficient with our weapon then the stats of the particular round we are using are pretty much moot.

My 2cents FWIW.

Gear

[softpoint]

The old .45 ACP made it's reputation as a manstopper with full metal jacket roundnose. And probably more people have been killed around the world with 9mm hardball than all other handgun cartridges combined. Old roundball revolvers killed thier fair share of folks, both good and bad, as did the .38 special with a roundnose lead bullet. Even 'ol Jeff Cooper once stated that a 200 grain .45 auto semi- wadcutter would be mighty hard to beat in a gunfight. Lots of variables can alter the performance of a hollowpoint that is made with an effort to obtain expansion at low velocity. Winter clothing can either clog the hollow point so that it does not expand, or prematurely expand the bullet so there is insufficient penetration. Striking an arm bone could fail a hollowpoint. On the other hand, when they do work as designed, they produce a very damaging wound channel with little chance of overpenetration.

[Ole]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

I carry Speer Gold Dot short barrel ammo in my .357.

[d_striker]

I managed to get my hands on a Lyman 452374 "new" hp mould and it truly lives up to its "Devastator" title, I have worked up a defense load using 6.1 grains of Universal and a 10 bh boolit and they turn into nice little 1.2" disks with 100% weight retention and goes through 3 wet phone books leaving a 4" hole. I couldn't ask for more from an automatic handgun, not even using those other projectiles with holes in their fronts (they leave their shiny jackets behind most of the time). You can't get better energy delivery on target with medium-velocity, controllable loads than with soft lead alloy boolits in hp form in my very humble and inexperienced opinion. I know there are a slew of defensive projectiles out there that are very effective for different defensive situations (for example bullets that won't go through walls and such) and you can make these too, with plastic sabot slugs, #7-1/2 magnum shot and some epoxy if you are into rolling your own. I just trust my Kimber and some good, well-tested Homemade boolits.

Btw, you may not be impressed, but I, for one, would most definitely not want to get hit by any of the boolits in your picture, even if they don't expand! Remember we fought (and thank god and many good men WON) 2 world wars with ball ammo!

Gear

It would be interesting to see how far your Lyman Devastator's would penetrate into ballistics gelatin.

If you ever get your hands on some gelatin, be sure to take pics and post!

[jh45gun]

That legal issue has been discussed before it you do not make an exotic bullet and it mimics factory ammo I doubt they can hang you with it. I would use my cast bullets and feel perfectly safe doing so. About expanding like the guys said 45 makes a big enough hole with out expanding I would not worry about it.

[Glen]

The 185 grain 452460 HPs shown in the picture penetrated 12-14" into ballistic gelatin when fired at 1100 fps. The moderate fragmentation observed was due to the fact they they were cast out of WW alloy (with 20:1 alloy, they would not have fragmented). I would expect similar behavior from the Devastator (maybe about 10% less penetration since expansion will likely be earlier).

[Recluse]

I didn't cast them, but the 38's that I have in my bedside gun are 158gr LSWCHP +P federals. I bet they open up just fine :)

Yep, that was an old FBI standard issue round for decades--except back then, they weren't "officially" +P loads; just considered "hot" .38 loads.

I have two new boxes of those loads, plus about 3/4's of a box I got from an FBI pal way back when. I was at an interagency school at Quantico and happened to meet up with him on the range. We did some ammo swapping (we were issued and carried .357 Magnums) and I walked away with three boxes of that SWCHP stuff. Excellent self-defense round.

We linked up again almost a year later down at Glynco and did another trade. Hell, I almost hate to shoot any of the stuff now. . . I know a lot of folks have worked hard to replicate/duplicate the load. Not sure how it turned out.

I'm kind of with Ole on the store-bought stuff for liability. Ayoob has some interesting experiences with juries, prosecutors and lawyers regarding handloads v manufacture loads.

Be interesting to know how our Castle Doctrine would deal with handload v store bought? According to our law, a good shoot also guarantees you immunity from the puke's family or friends trying to sue you. So I guess you could shoot the gangbanger with a bow & arrow and as long as it was righteous and legit, no worries.

But I'm not sure how a "home cast" arrow tip would expand. . . [smilie=1:

:coffee:

[Bob Krack]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

Could be, but as Bill Jordan always said - "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried out by 6"!

Bob

[malpaismike]

All my points have already been made: concern for legal issues of handloads; concern for fancy bullet pentration in clothing; using what you are used to for practice. That said, I have a box of factory ammo, and loaded mags/speedloaders/whatever for each short arm I have. The legal issue is the long suit; while AZ is fairly conservative, you never know when you'll have to deal with an activist jury. Showing that I used store-bought ammo gives me wiggle room in a tight situation. There is not a doubt in my mind that my loads are not better/superior to what I have locked and loaded. However, the law is a fickle bitch. thxnregards mm

[R.Clem]

I shoot a fair amount of cast boolits, not as many as others I know. But, I look at self defense in the opposite direction: I surely don't want that slug to pass threw some perp and go into or threw a bystander. Shooting a home invader could be really bad if that slug went threw the guy and the wall, out side into someone else. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT ROUND!
So I have loaded self defense loads for my wifes Officers ACP that will work the slide to load the next round, but are only about 500 fps with a Siearra 240gr Jacketed Hollow Cavity. The old adage of heavy bullet moving slow, and if it doesn't pass threw, who's going to the ER to have a slug removed.
For my .357's and 44 mag, I use shot loads at home, and Sierra Hollow Cavity's at subsonic.
I have never tested these loads on any thing except wet news print, only penetrated 5" at 10 feet, with a wound channel of 5+" when they stopped.
Just something to think about.

Ray

[Lloyd Smale]

I shoot cast in my ccw guns except for the 380. I mostly carry 1911s. I carry the load i practice with and my gun is sighted in for. I know that after of thousands of rounds that load is a 100 percent reliable. Ive also tested it for penetration and know its capability. I think a jury that wants to twist the story can twist it for any situation. How about the procecuter who tells you that you went and spent big dollars buying the most high tech hp ammo you could find. With special bullets advertised to kill a man dead in an instant. Is that any differnt then a round loaded by a hillbilly bullet caster out of plain old lead he got from a ww that fell off a car cause thats all he could afford ;)

[oldtoolsniper]

I would be more concerned about what I post in an open forum on this subject. Imagine what your prosecutor could do with the posts made by an individual discussing this subject before they were involved in a situation requiring the use of a firearm.

[Bret4207]

The fact is that anytime you are involved in a shooting your life will change overnight and you WILL go through hell over the next few YEARS. I put very little faith in Ayoobs claims about the "handloads vs factory" issue. And the cases Ayoob has provided to back his claim centered not around "loading deadlier bullets". 1 or 2 isolated cases that centered around powder residue- any lawyer worth his salt should have been able to get the handloads tested, just like factory. I enjoy Ayoobs writing too, but he's a writer, paid by the article, and a professional witness.

Use what you want, but expansion of handguns projectiles is an iffy thing.

[armyrat1970]

The fact is that anytime you are involved in a shooting your life will change overnight and you WILL go through hell over the next few YEARS. I put very little faith in Ayoobs claims about the "handloads vs factory" issue. And the cases Ayoob has provided to back his claim centered not around "loading deadlier bullets". 1 or 2 isolated cases that centered around powder residue- any lawyer worth his salt should have been able to get the handloads tested, just like factory. I enjoy Ayoobs writing too, but he's a writer, paid by the article, and a professional witness.

Use what you want, but expansion of handguns projectiles is an iffy thing.

Have often read you need at least 1000fps before the HP will even expand. Well that depends. The design and hardness of the bullet itself will dictate the velocity it needs to expand in soft tissue. Talking about semi-jackted HP. A softer light weight bullet, will expand at lower velocities but may not penetrate deep enough to really contact any vital organs. A soft heavier bullet at the same velocity may expand the same but would probably penetrate deeper.
If given a choice between the 110gr and 158gr 357 mag, and anything between, for defense, I would choose the 125gr.jhp. For the 45 if given the choice between the 165gr or 230gr. I would choose the 185gr. jhp.
As Bret states Ayoob is a writer. I have read his articles for probably around twenty years or so. Remember an artical he wrote many years ago concerning the 357mag as being the best all around caliber and handgun for personal defense, hunting and plinking and still agree with it. Some may differ in opinion as some may differ in opinion here. One thing though. How will they even know you used a handload instead of a factory load for your self defense? I know forencics has really developed over the past 20 years but if it is a down right justifiable shooting why would there even be a question about what you used in the shooting? You shot and killed a perp that was trying to kill you. Doesn't matter to me what you used. If I shot him with a 228gr rn cast bullet that I loaded for my 45ACP or #4 buckshot factory loads from my Mossberg 500 SPL Purpose, what difference should that make?

[eka]

I know forencics has really developed over the past 20 years but if it is a down right justifiable shooting why would there even be a question about what you used in the shooting? You shot and killed a perp that was trying to kill you. Doesn't matter to me what you used. If I shot him with a 228gr rn cast bullet that I loaded for my 45ACP or #4 buckshot factory loads from my Mossberg 500 SPL Purpose, what difference should that make?

There you go again, trying to apply what the old timers called common sense. That stuff has long since been outlawed and is no longer a recognized principal. Everybody knows the best mountains are made of mole hills and nobody has seen a forest in years. :-D

Keith

[Willbird]

Yep, that was an old FBI standard issue round for decades--except back then, they weren't "officially" +P loads; just considered "hot" .38 loads.

I have two new boxes of those loads, plus about 3/4's of a box I got from an FBI pal way back when. I was at an interagency school at Quantico and happened to meet up with him on the range. We did some ammo swapping (we were issued and carried .357 Magnums) and I walked away with three boxes of that SWCHP stuff. Excellent self-defense round.

We linked up again almost a year later down at Glynco and did another trade. Hell, I almost hate to shoot any of the stuff now. . . I know a lot of folks have worked hard to replicate/duplicate the load. Not sure how it turned out.

I'm kind of with Ole on the store-bought stuff for liability. Ayoob has some interesting experiences with juries, prosecutors and lawyers regarding handloads v manufacture loads.

Be interesting to know how our Castle Doctrine would deal with handload v store bought? According to our law, a good shoot also guarantees you immunity from the puke's family or friends trying to sue you. So I guess you could shoot the gangbanger with a bow & arrow and as long as it was righteous and legit, no worries.

But I'm not sure how a "home cast" arrow tip would expand. . . [smilie=1:

:coffee:

Castle Doctrine in Ohio makes it so the shootee cannot sue for any reason.

Bill

[Tokarev]

The fact is that anytime you are involved in a shooting your life will change overnight and you WILL go through hell over the next few YEARS. I put very little faith in Ayoobs claims about the "handloads vs factory" issue. And the cases Ayoob has provided to back his claim centered not around "loading deadlier bullets". 1 or 2 isolated cases that centered around powder residue- any lawyer worth his salt should have been able to get the handloads tested, just like factory. I enjoy Ayoobs writing too, but he's a writer, paid by the article, and a professional witness.

Use what you want, but expansion of handguns projectiles is an iffy thing.

Aren't you tired of being scared to discuss what your life may depend on one day?
Remember, it is always when you expect it the least that it happens that you need something most. 'Half the kingdom for a horse' so to say. In my uneducated opinion the most important thing is to look as a person fighting for one's life in view of the jury, and not as a commando waiting for an opportunity to start a mini-war. I was assaulted before and survived only because I was ready thru training and mental preparedness. In a situation you won't be thinking about jury, trust me. Unless you are Steven Segal.:razz:

[Ancesthntr]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

I carry Speer Gold Dot short barrel ammo in my .357.

I am a lawyer, though not a criminal defense lawyer. I know enough about the criminal side of things to understand that, as pointed out earlier, if you engage in a defensive shooting then your life will change, a lot. That is a guarantee. Now, I will presume that anyone reading this will make a good defensive shoot, i.e. only shoot another human being because you believe at the time that your life or that of a loved one is in danger, and that the only way to remove that danger is to shoot an intruder, mugger, rapist, etc. OK, fine. IF, IF, IF you are lucky enough to have a police force and a prosecutor with common sense, you may not get charged and just have to go to the station for some questioning. IF, IF, IF you live in a castle doctrine state OR you have a kindly disposed family of the perp you shot (and the chances of the latter are about zero, esp. if they think that they can get money from you), then you'll have no civil liability issues. Then all you have to deal with is your own conscience - because no matter how righteous you are or the shoot was, you'll ALWAYS have doubts (and the more of a decent person you are, the more doubt you'll have). Until your dying day you'll wonder if there was any other way (even if you won't admit it here or anywhere else).

BUT.

What if you are dealing with an anti-gun officer or chief, or a prosecutor who wants to make his bones at your expense? What if you're not in a castle doctrine state, and the perp's family is out for revenge of any kind they can get without going to jail? Then you have a problem. You may come out of it just fine, in the sense of not going to jail (because it WAS a righteous shooting, remember?), or of winning the civil suit (because it was a righteous shooting and you have a decent lawyer). But why make your criminal and civil attorneys' jobs more difficult? If you load your defensive arm(s) with standard, off-the-shelf defensive ammo (preferably of the same type used by lots of police forces, like Hydrashok, Golden Sabre, etc. - and more preferably the same type used by YOUR police force), then there simply is NO ISSUE with whether you are "making your own ammo because you had an itch to kill someone" or any such nonsense. Remember, folks, the police are not your friend (no matter how normal and decent most of them are - and they ARE); the local prosecutor is assuredly NOT YOUR FRIEND. The perp's family hates your guts. If anyone is in the mood to make your life miserable, they will latch on to ANY fact, no matter how insignificant in your opinion, and spin it in the worst possible way for you.

My advice, and my practice, is to carry factory hollowpoints in my defensive arms. 230 grain Hydrashoks in my .45, and 110 grain Golden Sabres in my J-frame. I will occasionally practice with those particular rounds, first to make sure that they feed in the .45 (they do, never had a problem) and second to be able to truthfully say that I do practice with them in order to be better able to hit what I aim at and nothing else (both from a moral and a legal point of view). Most of my practice is, however, different. I handload, like all of you - and now I'm getting into casting. I load ammo for practice that has virtually the same POI as the factory defensive ammo that I regularly carry - that way, I have a much greater likelihood of hitting what I aim at, because I have EFFECTIVELY practiced with the same ammo I carry.

In short, don't take any unnecessary chances. Yes, the odds of anything bad happening because you shoot handloaded, cast bullets is slim, but why take the chance when for a slight amount of money more you can carry standard defensive ammo that won't raise extraneous issues (extraneous as in "besides the issue of whether you had a right to shoot someone else"). Don't look for Trouble - because Trouble comes knocking without the invitation, and you don't want that visit. To practically invite more because of some misplaced pride in your ability to cast and/or load good ammo, or because you didn't want to spend $50 buying some factory ammo and practicing with it is just plain stupid - no disrespect intended, but you all have to understand how badly some prosecutor or some ambulance chaser can **** up your life. Don't help them, for crying out loud.

[dakotashooter2]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Everyone knows that they ONLY reason to handload is to produce "super deadly ammo" that will kill at just the speaking of it's name.

Remember this

1) All bullets can kill
2) There are no degrees of DEAD
3) Lawsuits are won or lost based on "spin".

In the above quote a lawyer may as easily point out that since you bought the same type ammo as the police use you must have anticipated (leading to pre-meditation) the NEED to kill (rather than use the gun as a threat). I really doubt more prosecutors would do enough balistic testing to prove that a handload would be superior to a factory load. Even if they did it is unlikely any reasonable difference would be found.

[Recluse]

Actually, rather than the "I bought this ammo because it's what the police use," a line that will work far better in anti-gun jurisdictions is:


I purchased this ammunition at the recommendation of the police.

You can/will be quizzed as to "which" esteemed badge toter recommended this to you, blah blah blah. The correct answer is, "Didn't catch her name--I met her at the shooting range."

:coffee:

[ghh3rd]

I agree about using only factory ammo for SD. I do think that with my luck, the fact that I used any "out of the ordinaryl" ammo would come back to bite me.

I also agree about replicating what the local police force uses. They have made their choice of ammo based on what will effectively stop a threat, which is exactly my goal, so I can't see how that could be twisted and used against me.

Randy

[markinalpine]

All my points have already been made: concern for legal issues of handloads; concern for fancy bullet pentration in clothing; using what you are used to for practice. That said, I have a box of factory ammo, and loaded mags/speedloaders/whatever for each short arm I have. The legal issue is the long suit; while AZ is fairly conservative, you never know when you'll have to deal with an activist jury. Showing that I used store-bought ammo gives me wiggle room in a tight situation. There is not a doubt in my mind that my loads are not better/superior to what I have locked and loaded. However, the law is a fickle bitch. thxnregards mm

For each short arm.

I only have one! [smilie=1:

Mark :mrgreen:

[zxcvbob]

I use 158 grain commercial swaged lead HP's (Magnus brand, from Midsouthshooterssupply) in my .38 Special for HD, with 4.6 grains of Unique. But I have a few hundred pounds of dead-soft foundry lead, and have been wondering about how well a 125 grain TC boolit or 158 grain RNFP (with a *very* wide flat nose) might work if cast with a hardness of about 5 or 6.

[Ancesthntr]

Dakotashooter2 said:

Remember this

1) All bullets can kill
2) There are no degrees of DEAD
3) Lawsuits are won or lost based on "spin".

In the above quote a lawyer may as easily point out that since you bought the same type ammo as the police use you must have anticipated (leading to pre-meditation) the NEED to kill (rather than use the gun as a threat). I really doubt more prosecutors would do enough balistic testing to prove that a handload would be superior to a factory load. Even if they did it is unlikely any reasonable difference would be found.

The response of your lawyer to an assertion that you bought the same ammo as the police in order to satisfy some "need" to kill is very, very simple: "So what my esteemed opponent is really saying is that the police must have this same "need to kill" - an outrageous accusation with which any reasonable person would disagree. If it is good enough for the police, who have strict rules of engagement and who do not go about wantonly killing people, then it is good enough for any citizen licensed to carry a firearm for self-defense. Further, the ammunition my client bought was 100% legal for anyone to own - it is not particularly lethal vs. any other generally marketed self-defense ammunition."

As to the bit about prosecutors testing handloads, that's not even an issue. The issue is "how do you avoid having yet another accusation flung in your direction." You do it by not sticking out, by doing what most people do. Despite the fact that every person on this website handloads (else why make boolits?), most gun owners simply don't. They don't have the equipment, supplies, knowledge or inclination, not when they can simply walk into a gunshop or the local sporting goods box store and plunk down a $20 bill to get what they need (or think they need). Thus, not sticking out means buying factory ammo.

Again, don't go looking for Trouble, he'll find you soon enough anyway. Use cast bullets for practice or for hunting or for matches, but NOT for SD. Is your pride worth the potential trouble?

[Sky King]

In the Old West there were only cast boolits available, not too many complaints at high noon.

[Bladebu1]

If I "have too "and mean "Have too" shoot someone I do not care if it is cast hand load or factory because I had to shoot I did not chose to shoot him I do keep T.A.P. rounds in my 40.sw becuase I do not want the Flash because If I have to shoot it will not be just Once I keep anthor mag next to the flashlight and the gun in the frist place.
there won't be a defendent in the case in court only because if it is him or my family he will be carried out ,or I will , or both
If I grab My 9mm I have 19 trys even for a bad day for me that will be good for at least three badguys

But If I have the chance I will give them every chance to leave frist
I can always buy a new t.v. or a new computer take what you want But do not threaten my family

[carpetman]

If I run over and kill someone with my pickup, the fact I drive a Ford might be a real issue. Fords being built of the real stuff are more likely to kill. Chevies and Dodges on the other hand, being built of plastic and other flimsy stuff dont have much potential to hurt anyone, so if you did kill somebody with one, you'd probably walk. I think that has as much validity as to the type ammo--handload,factory,cast or otherwise.

[oldtoolsniper]

As a retired Marine I can tell you that the only Ammunition that is legal in combat is factory issued ammunition of the ball variety. This includes the snipers; the ammunition for them is produced by Winchester and is tracked by the lot number to the weapon. It is all NATO approved. Even in a full fledged firefight you need to cover your rear. You can only use issued weapons and ammunition.

[oldtoolsniper]

If you run someone over the insurance company will pay for the truck and the hospital bills and settle with the family using the lawyers that defend that company’s money. You have no insurance for self defense.

[Bladebu1]

If you run someone over the insurance company will pay for the truck and the hospital bills and settle with the family using the lawyers that defend that company’s money. You have no insurance for self defense.
I thought Our Guns were ? the only insurance we could get

[Tokarev]

As a retired Marine I can tell you that the only Ammunition that is legal in combat is factory issued ammunition of the ball variety. This includes the snipers

That's why they use Amax, I guess...[smilie=1:

[JSnover]

Everyone knows that they ONLY reason to handload is to produce "super deadly ammo" that will kill at just the speaking of it's name.



You guys got it backwards. "Your Honor, the reason I make my own ammunition is because that store-bought stuff is way too deadly. Unfortunately, the deceased threatened my life before my load development was completed."

[Bret4207]

Aren't you tired of being scared to discuss what your life may depend on one day?
Remember, it is always when you expect it the least that it happens that you need something most. 'Half the kingdom for a horse' so to say. In my uneducated opinion the most important thing is to look as a person fighting for one's life in view of the jury, and not as a commando waiting for an opportunity to start a mini-war. I was assaulted before and survived only because I was ready thru training and mental preparedness. In a situation you won't be thinking about jury, trust me. Unless you are Steven Segal.:razz:

If you want to use factory ammo, fine, go ahead. I just question the realities and what people think will really happen. I know that what will happen is unending lawsuits no matter what the circumstances, even if you do slide on the criminal end of it.

And trust ME, after 22 years as a cop I thought about the jury ALL THE TIME! The only reason several people are walking the earth today is because I didn't want to go through the hell of what a shooting entailed.

[Willbird]

As a retired Marine I can tell you that the only Ammunition that is legal in combat is factory issued ammunition of the ball variety. This includes the snipers; the ammunition for them is produced by Winchester and is tracked by the lot number to the weapon. It is all NATO approved. Even in a full fledged firefight you need to cover your rear. You can only use issued weapons and ammunition.

Snipers have and do use military match ammo, some of which is loaded with a Sierra type of HPBT ammo. it is not designed to expand thus it is considered non expanding.

Bill

[Echo]

And trust ME, after 22 years as a cop I thought about the jury ALL THE TIME! The only reason several people are walking the earth today is because I didn't want to go through the hell of what a shooting entailed.

I know - The Paperwork, The Paperwork! Carrumba...

(No, I haven't been involved But that's what G. Gordon Liddy complained about)

[waksupi]

Consider, if investigators would go into your home, and find several hundred cast boolit loads for the weapon you used, and one box of something like Black Talon, that you shot some well deserving recipient with. Which looks worse?

[35remington]

Yep. To those that think factory ammo is more benign than handloads, the ONLY words that need to be uttered to completely refute that notion are "Black Talon."

In a fantasy, a halfway sharp attorney, prosecuting in some wildly, impossibly improbable worst case scenario, can hold up a picture of an expanded factory made Federal HST hollowpoint or some such and say, "look at those slashing, dagger like blender blades. This sicko wanted the most damaging ammo made so he bought this Federal factory loaded stuff."

Now, let's get real.

Just remember that for all the "legal proselytizing" we've seen on this thread, the issue hasn't EVER come up where the guy was hung for using handloads - either because it just doesn't become an issue, or maybe simply because it hasn't happened.

Guys who say there WILL or even MAY BE negative consequences for using handloads are, quite simply, guessing. There's no real precedent, so it fails the "law test."

Factory loads also FAIL the "humanity" test, especially those with sharp projections on the expanded bullet, which every factory offers these days.

Perhaps we're better off worrying about something more likely to happen.

[stocker]

Tokarev: How much snow cover was present when you shot them? Have to ask as I see you're also from north of the line. Snow will slow down a boolit quite a bit if it's settled or packed much. Your lead may have been going pretty slow when it hit the clay.

[geargnasher]

Ok. I live in Texas. I have the right to use DEADLY FORCE in my state if I believe it is the only option I have to:

1). protect my life from immediate threat (or future threat "he said he and his friends were going to come back and kill me and my family").

2.) protect someone else from simililar threat or perceived threat.

3). stop someone from fleeing with my stuff or someone else's stuff. (why anyone would want to use deadly force over some property is beyond me, but it's the law).

DEADLY FORCE means I can legally kill a perp trying to jack my front door by shooting him THROUGH the door with my Mossberg which is specifically loaded with man-killing 3" buckshot for the purpose and fired through a cylinder choke (NOT a hunting gun). Yes I'm prepared, it has happened. read the news. I'm sure somebody would call this ENTRAPMENT or PREMEDITATED. I don't care as long as I survive.

DEADLY FORCE means I can beat a perp to death with a 2x4 from the back of my pickup or a lamp from my nightstand or the family bible on the coffee table or my bare hands if I can and still have to endure all that comes from the enesapable bottom line that I killed someone.

My state's law doesn't say WHAT sort of deadly force you use. 9mm +p, Cor-bon, flintlock, cast soft hollow point, beat them to death with the butt of the gun, it doesn't matter. You have the right. Whether this helps you in the real world or not is totally subjective. As has been stated you are in a world of poop no matter where you are or in what way you were forced to kill another human being, even if the law specifically grants the right, but if you ever are forced to do so I hope you have the weapon that suits you best and not one you fantisize that a jury will forgive you for using. A gun, particularly a handgun, is already so demonized by the stinking sensationalist media that if you shoot someone with one you're screwed to begin with if you get the wrong jury and the wrong criminal defense attorney. In the end what will happen to you in a given situation is useless speculation. I'll speculate that my state's intent is to let me use guns to defend myself, hand-loading and casting is also legal, and therefore it shouldn't matter what I use.

BTW, a point no one seems to get about the hollow point .45 acp boolits I make for that God-I-hope-never-but-just-in-case moment is that I don't care if you are wearing body armor or heavy clothes or if they don't expand during a particular scenario due to clogged cavities 200GRAINS OF LEAD AT 925 PFS WILL PUT ANYONE ON THEIR A** which will substantially lower the threat rating whether it is a lethal hit or not, I use hps because the deliver mass on target no matter what and potentially work better than ball or jhp because they will not overpenetrate and expand reliably at reasonable velocities. As someone stated "arm bone". if I shoot you in the arm with a .22 pistol you are not likely to try to hurt me anymore, if I shoot you with my .45 you won't have an arm. if I shoot you center of mass and you are wearing body armor you will be on your back trying to figure out how to breathe again, most likely buying me priceless milliseconds to figure out if I HAVE to kill you to make you stop or if you give up (either way I'll have the advantage). Factory ammo is good stuff too, lots better than a table lamp, I just think my stuff is better because I am vain that way.

Use what you like, assume your own risks, like all of us I have my own opinions and my own reasons for what I do and prepare for, and though it may not seem like it from this rant I do appreciate all of the good food for thought.

for what it's worth...

Gear

[RugerSP101]

I cant even figure out how half the stuff on this website here is even legal to sell.
Theres no way Id want to explain to a jury why I needed to use Flechette Shot Shells....or even owned them for that matter.
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html

[RugerSP101]

Castle Doctrine in Ohio makes it so the shootee cannot sue for any reason.

BillI was so glad when we moved back to Ohio to find that the castle law was passed. Its just common sense.

[RugerSP101]

Dakotashooter2 said:


The response of your lawyer to an assertion that you bought the same ammo as the police in order to satisfy some "need" to kill is very, very simple: "So what my esteemed opponent is really saying is that the police must have this same "need to kill" - an outrageous accusation with which any reasonable person would disagree. If it is good enough for the police, who have strict rules of engagement and who do not go about wantonly killing people, then it is good enough for any citizen licensed to carry a firearm for self-defense. Further, the ammunition my client bought was 100% legal for anyone to own - it is not particularly lethal vs. any other generally marketed self-defense ammunition."

As to the bit about prosecutors testing handloads, that's not even an issue. The issue is "how do you avoid having yet another accusation flung in your direction." You do it by not sticking out, by doing what most people do. Despite the fact that every person on this website handloads (else why make boolits?), most gun owners simply don't. They don't have the equipment, supplies, knowledge or inclination, not when they can simply walk into a gunshop or the local sporting goods box store and plunk down a $20 bill to get what they need (or think they need). Thus, not sticking out means buying factory ammo.

Again, don't go looking for Trouble, he'll find you soon enough anyway. Use cast bullets for practice or for hunting or for matches, but NOT for SD. Is your pride worth the potential trouble?
I have to agree with the logic.
While I do agree that it shouldnt be an issue, I can see some dirtbag prosecutor making a stink about it trying to make it look like the defendant is some whacked out gun nut who sits in his house day after day planning for death and destruction should some poor defenseless rapist/murderer come by for tea.

I use some sort of winchester 357 and/38 special factory loads for HD in our revolver. Not for any reason other than I dont trust my handloads enough since we've already had a dud.
I also have 2 -12 gauge mossberg shotguns with 4-15 pellet 00 buck ready for bear should the need arise, again, factory loads.

I dont think in every case that using handloads is going to be an issue, but who wants to be that one person who gets to deal with some asinine prosecutor with a point to prove or looking for a little press.

[Ancesthntr]

In the Old West there were only cast boolits available, not too many complaints at high noon.


If I "have too "and mean "Have too" shoot someone I do not care if it is cast hand load or factory because I had to shoot I did not chose to shoot him


Yep. To those that think factory ammo is more benign than handloads, the ONLY words that need to be uttered to completely refute that notion are "Black Talon."

...

Just remember that for all the "legal proselytizing" we've seen on this thread, the issue hasn't EVER come up where the guy was hung for using handloads - either because it just doesn't become an issue, or maybe simply because it hasn't happened.

Guys who say there WILL or even MAY BE negative consequences for using handloads are, quite simply, guessing. There's no real precedent, so it fails the "law test."

OK, guys, RELAX.

1. Go get a flux capacitor and travel back to the Old West, if you can. On the way back, pick up a few rolls of Indian Head cents and some $3 gold pieces, you'll make a fortune. I, however, will assume that I'm stuck in the early 21st Century in a land where you can pick up perfectly fine factory ammo at a dozen places or more in a 20 mile radius, damned near anywhere you are, and you can order it via the Internet in all but a couple of states..

2) I am a big believer in "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and other such sentiments that put survival over narrow legalities (and I'm a lawyer). Survival is survival, and even if you go up the river for 20 years you are still alive and still have some hope. If all I had was cast bullets in a defensive arm, you betcha I'd shoot any SOB threatening me or my family...BUT NEITHER OF MY 2 CARRY PIECES WILL EVER BE LOADED WITH CAST BULLETS EXCEPT AT THE RANGE. On purpose, because I simply choose not to do so. See below for why.

3) It may well be true that no one has ever been convicted solely because of using hand loaded bullets, cast or otherwise. Maybe no one ever will be. Fine. But as I tell my clients, I don't have a working crystal ball. I don't know the future, and that's particularly true when courts aren't following any type of consistent legal reasoning, when prosecutors look for out of the ordinary cases on which to begin or enhance their political careers, and more families than ever of dead perps look at a lawsuit as a get rich quick scheme. Folks, I choose not to unduly expose myself to baseless accusations which, even if I know I can beat them, I simply don't need piled on top of whatever legitimate criminal and civil problems I may have in such an event. I choose not to give anyone prosecuting or suing me the slightest advantage. Just as I arm myself to protect my person and those of my family members, so do I choose to protect my legal interests and those of my family members. I choose not to be a test case that is studied for the next 50 years in law school text books and law review articles.

It is, frankly, the height of stupidity to carry around handloaded ammunition in a defensive firearm when you have an easy and relatively inexpensive choice to carry the same or similar ammunition to the police in your jurisdiction. That's not to say that any of you choosing to do so will suffer some legal consequence, just that you MAY, whether you expect it or not. To do other than loading factory ammunition needlessly exposes you to risk, even if that risk is small. Its akin to purposely going through the bad side of town instead of around it, just because you're armed and "nothing can/will happen to me" or speeding down the road well above the posted limit because you have a seat belt and an airbag. Well, you might be right 999 times out of 1,000, or even more often - but the stakes are high enough that if you are that 1 in 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 then you are screwed.

I didn't join this forum to not use cast boolits, quite the opposite. But they'll be used on the range or in matches (I don't hunt, but if I did I'd also use cast boolits if state law allowed it), NOT in my carry piece off the range. Carrying a defensive weapon is about reducing risk, not taking chances because you have (or think you have) a failsafe position.

[vincewarde]

Old roundball revolvers killed their fair share of folks

The Colt Navy - of both Civil War and western gunfight fame - was ballistically similar to a .32 ACP (if not inferior). People took those things to war with 60gr cast lead balls. I often think of this when someone says that a 9mm or .380 isn't big enough for defense!

Thousands of people were killed with Colt Navys - proving both that shot placement is the most important thing and that cast bullets 2-4 times heavier can be used for defense!

[lead_her_fly]

I've heard it put this way: "A 9mm MAY expand but a 45 will never shrink!" ;)

I carry handloads for self defense. Lead, jacketed, plated or whatever. If you use factory ammo does that keep you from knowing your target, backdrop or any other factors needed for a good shoot? No.

Do you know what they call a good shoot when using handloads?
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A good shoot, period.

[armyrat1970]

I've heard it put this way: "A 9mm MAY expand but a 45 will never shrink!" ;)

I carry handloads for self defense. Lead, jacketed, plated or whatever. If you use factory ammo does that keep you from knowing your target, backdrop or any other factors needed for a good shoot? No.

Do you know what they call a good shoot when using handloads?

A good shoot, period.

I live in Southeast Louisiana in a suburb of New Orleans. Before Katrina I even posted on other sites that my first two rounds in my 45 and Mossberg were Less-Than-Lethal rounds. Others on different sites questioned this. When Katrina hit, I sent my family to Florida but stayed here because I knew there was going to be looting on a vast scale and was not going to allow these thugs and self proclaimed gangsters steal anything I owned, I changed my loading to, Mossberg 500 Special Purpose with 00Buck. My 45 with 185gr. Rem JHP with 3 30 round mags and 10 7 round mags. My Marlin Model 1894 in 357 was fully loaded with 158gr Federal JHP. Had 5 20 round mags for my Mini-14 and 3 30 round mags and 3 15 round mags for my 30Carbine that were loaded to max. My Ruger 10/22 was stoked with Rem JHP in the original 10rd mag and one 25 rd mag. My H&R 922 loaded full cylinder with the same. Also a Winchester Model 140 loaded with 3 #2 shot. Since then I have kept my Less-Than-Lethal ammo in my safe and may some time just fire them off but will never use them for my home or personal defense. After being under martial law for I believe it was over 2 weeks I felt naked when I took my 45 off of my hip. I had a Parish cop tell me straight up, if you catch a looter, shoot 'em and let the body lay where it falls. Try to contact us and we will take care of it. My have stunck for a few days as all communications I had were out but luckly I did not have to make that choice.

[waksupi]

You have much more faith in the reliability of factory ammunition, than I do.
In MY loads, I trust.




OK, guys, RELAX.

1. Go get a flux capacitor and travel back to the Old West, if you can. On the way back, pick up a few rolls of Indian Head cents and some $3 gold pieces, you'll make a fortune. I, however, will assume that I'm stuck in the early 21st Century in a land where you can pick up perfectly fine factory ammo at a dozen places or more in a 20 mile radius, damned near anywhere you are, and you can order it via the Internet in all but a couple of states..

2) I am a big believer in "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" and other such sentiments that put survival over narrow legalities (and I'm a lawyer). Survival is survival, and even if you go up the river for 20 years you are still alive and still have some hope. If all I had was cast bullets in a defensive arm, you betcha I'd shoot any SOB threatening me or my family...BUT NEITHER OF MY 2 CARRY PIECES WILL EVER BE LOADED WITH CAST BULLETS EXCEPT AT THE RANGE. On purpose, because I simply choose not to do so. See below for why.

3) It may well be true that no one has ever been convicted solely because of using hand loaded bullets, cast or otherwise. Maybe no one ever will be. Fine. But as I tell my clients, I don't have a working crystal ball. I don't know the future, and that's particularly true when courts aren't following any type of consistent legal reasoning, when prosecutors look for out of the ordinary cases on which to begin or enhance their political careers, and more families than ever of dead perps look at a lawsuit as a get rich quick scheme. Folks, I choose not to unduly expose myself to baseless accusations which, even if I know I can beat them, I simply don't need piled on top of whatever legitimate criminal and civil problems I may have in such an event. I choose not to give anyone prosecuting or suing me the slightest advantage. Just as I arm myself to protect my person and those of my family members, so do I choose to protect my legal interests and those of my family members. I choose not to be a test case that is studied for the next 50 years in law school text books and law review articles.

It is, frankly, the height of stupidity to carry around handloaded ammunition in a defensive firearm when you have an easy and relatively inexpensive choice to carry the same or similar ammunition to the police in your jurisdiction. That's not to say that any of you choosing to do so will suffer some legal consequence, just that you MAY, whether you expect it or not. To do other than loading factory ammunition needlessly exposes you to risk, even if that risk is small. Its akin to purposely going through the bad side of town instead of around it, just because you're armed and "nothing can/will happen to me" or speeding down the road well above the posted limit because you have a seat belt and an airbag. Well, you might be right 999 times out of 1,000, or even more often - but the stakes are high enough that if you are that 1 in 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 then you are screwed.

I didn't join this forum to not use cast boolits, quite the opposite. But they'll be used on the range or in matches (I don't hunt, but if I did I'd also use cast boolits if state law allowed it), NOT in my carry piece off the range. Carrying a defensive weapon is about reducing risk, not taking chances because you have (or think you have) a failsafe position.

[Blammer]

I've heard that there is a problem with using handloads in self defense and the jury convicting the defendant of using " extra deadly custom ammo" in self defense.

I am still waiting for ANYONE to post any record of this ever happening anywhere.

[Willbird]

I've heard that there is a problem with using handloads in self defense and the jury convicting the defendant of using " extra deadly custom ammo" in self defense.

I am still waiting for ANYONE to post any record of this ever happening anywhere.


Massad Ayoob is the strongest proponent of the "no handloads" issue, and I have NO doubt that he would provide you with cases that prove his theory, he has defended a great many people in court who had to fire in self defense.

His info is good info, but you have to temper it with your state laws, and your local political climate, even without Castle Doctrine in rural Ohio counties if you shot a person who was illegally in your home no charges would be filed. A home breaker who wanted to sue the home owner who shot him would have to find an out of town lawyer to file a lawsuit too.

Bill

[Tokarev]

Tokarev: How much snow cover was present when you shot them? Have to ask as I see you're also from north of the line. Snow will slow down a boolit quite a bit if it's settled or packed much. Your lead may have been going pretty slow when it hit the clay.

There is no snow on the front of the berms at that range due to lots of traffic :Fire:

As to the argument 'factory vs homemade' that's a bit of a stretch from my perspective. The biggest question I have is why all of a sudden a factory (a private enterprise) is more credible and reliable than your basement (a private enterprise)? Smells socialism.

[zxcvbob]

I've heard that there is a problem with using handloads in self defense and the jury convicting the defendant of using " extra deadly custom ammo" in self defense.

The Harold Fish conviction is pretty close. He as carrying a 10mm (for protection against mountain lions) and the jury thought that was excessive when he shot his attacker and that was the primary basis for the conviction according to the jurors later. I guess he was supposed to carry two guns, the 10mm and a something marginal like maybe a .380 or a .32

[Old Ironsights]

Allright... Let's throw a monkey into this wrench... ;)

Go get a box of FACTORY Buffalo Bore .38 sp LSWHP+P and I will bring a box of MY .38sp LSWCHP+P.

We'll dump both boxes into a hat and see if we can sort my "handloads" from their Factory loads.

After we do that, we'll shoot both types into gelatine and compare bullets, cases and penetration.

I'll pay for the box of Buffalo Bore ammo if you can make a defenitive determination between which is which consistently after both "tests"... 'cause I've tried it... and as long as the headstamps are the same you can't tell.

The point is, there's "reloads" and then there's "reloads".

[Gary51]

For home defense I keep my guns loaded with factory ammo and not something like Black Talons or other ammo made to cause catastrophic damage that have a "reputation" as killer bullets. If you ever need to defend your castle and kill an intruder (never wound them as dead men can't testify against you) with a handload you will be dragged through the mud as a deranged psycho who made this boolit in something that resembles Dr. Frankenstein s lab with the sole purpose of killing the poor crackhead criminal.

[Wayne Smith]

Massad Ayoob is the strongest proponent of the "no handloads" issue, and I have NO doubt that he would provide you with cases that prove his theory, he has defended a great many people in court who had to fire in self defense.

His info is good info, but you have to temper it with your state laws, and your local political climate, even without Castle Doctrine in rural Ohio counties if you shot a person who was illegally in your home no charges would be filed. A home breaker who wanted to sue the home owner who shot him would have to find an out of town lawyer to file a lawsuit too.

Bill

May be a technicality, but Massad Ayoob has never defended anyone and he would be the first to say so. He functions as an expert witness, not as a lawyer. His job is to inform or teach the court, not defend. I do the same thing as a psychologist.

Vinceward, any penetration of the skin was dangerous prior to antibiotics. With proper medical care today people survive .45ACP wounds.

If I, God forbid, ever have to use my .38 Special, and the question comes up, "Your Honor, if I wanted to kill someone I'd have used a .45!"

[RugerSP101]

The Harold Fish conviction is pretty close. He as carrying a 10mm (for protection against mountain lions) and the jury thought that was excessive when he shot his attacker and that was the primary basis for the conviction according to the jurors later. I guess he was supposed to carry two guns, the 10mm and a something marginal like maybe a .380 or a .32

Which, assuming this is accurate, shows the point that juries can be biased as can prosecutors, and really make things look like something they arent.
Id have to wonder that since I have a 357 if some nimrod attorney wouldnt pull the same garbage saying that I 'could' have used a less lethal 38 special round but since Im a bloodthirsty gun nut supposedly looking for any chance to take a life, I used the 357 instead.

Its just disgusting that things can be turned against the person defending themselves, but I think we all know a story or two where juries have gone against common sense and decency.

Castle law helps to remove some of the absurdity out of protecting ones life and family, thank goodness.

[JSnover]

Use whatever you want but if you like to read Ayoob's work, pay attention to his analysis of how each bullet performed. He recommends not using handloads but I used to read a lot of his "Ayoob Files" articals and I don't remember him mentioning anyone having legal problems because they used home-brew instead of factory-made.

[Tokarev]

Where do the DA and jury draw the line between the tame, cute 'sufficient' rounds and evil killer rounds? If it's arbitrary, it's unconstitutional.

[Ancesthntr]

Where do the DA and jury draw the line between the tame, cute 'sufficient' rounds and evil killer rounds? If it's arbitrary, it's unconstitutional.

Yes, it is. And many of the other posters are completely correct that a good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot (and the other way). Dead from a chunk of WW lead is as dead as from a chunk of copper-coated virgin lead produced in a large factory.

HOWEVER, I don't wish to be a test case. Too expensive, too stressful. The legal system is very, very far from perfect - and it tends, more and more as time passes, to grind up the little guy who did the common sense or traditional thing. I choose to not stick out in that regard - I don't want to give even a 0.1% advantage to a prosecutor trying to make his career on your case, or to a hungry ambulance chaser like John Edwards.

There is simply no reason on Earth to take a chance when an alternative that is just as good is available at a very reasonable price.

[Bret4207]

Massad Ayoob is the strongest proponent of the "no handloads" issue, and I have NO doubt that he would provide you with cases that prove his theory, he has defended a great many people in court who had to fire in self defense.

His info is good info, but you have to temper it with your state laws, and your local political climate, even without Castle Doctrine in rural Ohio counties if you shot a person who was illegally in your home no charges would be filed. A home breaker who wanted to sue the home owner who shot him would have to find an out of town lawyer to file a lawsuit too.

Bill

I did ask him, I also asked him just how much time he had a a street cop since he makes claims of being a cop. He never answered either question. We went back and forth to the point I realized I wasn't going to get ANY answer and I gave up when he wanted to send me his educational records.

The ONLY case's I'm aware of where a handload made a difference is a case where powder residue from a "similar" factory load showed a different positioning of the combatants than what a handload might have shown and what the defendant claimed. The defense for some reason failed to have the defendants handloads tested. Sounds more like a poor attorney than a problem with handloads.

Look, it comes down to this- most of us will never, ever have to even pull a gun much less shoot someone. Use what YOU feel comfortable with. If that's a 38 Special loaded with homecast wadcutters and the old standard 2.7 Bulls Eye then use that. If it's the latest mall ninja approved tactical extreme razor wire bullet out of a 392 Remchester then fine, use that. No matter what you use your life will effectively end the moment you pull the trigger, at least life as you knew it. All this is doing is beating the horse, and he's been dead for decades.

[Willbird]

Yes, it is. And many of the other posters are completely correct that a good shoot is a good shoot is a good shoot (and the other way). Dead from a chunk of WW lead is as dead as from a chunk of copper-coated virgin lead produced in a large factory.

HOWEVER, I don't wish to be a test case. Too expensive, too stressful. The legal system is very, very far from perfect - and it tends, more and more as time passes, to grind up the little guy who did the common sense or traditional thing. I choose to not stick out in that regard - I don't want to give even a 0.1% advantage to a prosecutor trying to make his career on your case, or to a hungry ambulance chaser like John Edwards.

There is simply no reason on Earth to take a chance when an alternative that is just as good is available at a very reasonable price.


What you are speaking of is exactly why I use handloads, if I were to go buy some special defensive ammunition just for self defense a savvy Prosecutor could use that against me.

Bill

[Old Ironsights]

It's not the Prosecutor you have to worry about anyway. They simply argue the Legality of the Shoot.

It's the rat-turd Civil Lawyer that the sobbing momma hires for the "wrongful death" suit that will try to use the "killer bullet" argument.

And it won't matter what bullet you use in that case anyway, 'cause all the "plaintiffs" want to do is bleed you one way or the other.

[mpmarty]

Tokarev, if you're patient enough to still be reading this missive, please take into consideration that those fired cast boolets are quite possibly loads that were meant for target work at around 750 to 800 fps. Pushing them up a couple of hundred feet per second might well have developed the mushroom expansion you feel is missing.

[JSnover]

The main reason I keep factory loads in my defensive weapons is because I can't cast a Golden Sabre or a Hydro-Shock, etc. I practice with handloads that shoot to the point point of aim. 'nuff said.

[azrednek]

That legal issue has been discussed before it you do not make an exotic bullet and it mimics factory ammo I doubt they can hang you with it. I would use my cast bullets and feel perfectly safe doing so. About expanding like the guys said 45 makes a big enough hole with out expanding I would not worry about it.

When I was sitting on a Grand Jury. During a break, I asked one of the prosecuting attorneys about hand loaded ammo. His opinion (mind you it is his opinion) hand loaded ammo would be an issue in a pre-meditated murder case but would most likely be insignificant in a justifiable homicide. He was unaware of any trials where hand loaded ammo was an issue.

[Tokarev]

Tokarev, if you're patient enough to still be reading this missive, please take into consideration that those fired cast boolets are quite possibly loads that were meant for target work at around 750 to 800 fps. Pushing them up a couple of hundred feet per second might well have developed the mushroom expansion you feel is missing.

:coffee:
It did not occur to me, but knowing the range members who cast their own and shoot cast reloads, I would think that you hit the nail on the head.

[rb dave]

If I run over and kill someone with my pickup, the fact I drive a Ford might be a real issue. Fords being built of the real stuff are more likely to kill. Chevies and Dodges on the other hand, being built of plastic and other flimsy stuff dont have much potential to hurt anyone, so if you did kill somebody with one, you'd probably walk. I think that has as much validity as to the type ammo--handload,factory,cast or otherwise.

when did ford start making TRUCKS??

[heat-round]

Nough said?

[fredj338]

These 45 cal bullets were fired during the late weeks of this winter and recovered by me from thawing clay of the berms.

They exhibit no signs of expansion from meeting with frozen clay at 25 yards. That means they will not expand in the human body too IMHO.

http://www.tallmanindustries.ca/images/range_lead.jpg

At the same time I recovered many a softpoint bullet that expanded and some of them turned inside out (probably the hollowpoints). No pictures as they would be too messy to clean, just take my word on it. Even the jacketed bullets were deformed much more than those cast ones above.
Dirt is not a good test medium for expansion & frozen dirt even less so. Lead HP can be quite effective for a SD situation. The 158grLSWCHP+P 38sp is a good example of a bullet that just works. I have several HP designs in diff calibers & you can make a LHP give good expansion from 800fps to 1200fps by tayloring the alloy &/or HP shape. These were fired itno wetpack.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I'll use my Cast HP's and sort it out later. Better to be judged my 12 than carried by 6.IMHO

There is an old adage, dead men tell no tales. If you "must" shoot, make sure it is a good shoot.[smilie=1:

[hamour]

In Texas if it is a good shoot you can use whats in your gun, if it is a bad shoot you can still use whats in your gun but go to jail for a bad shoot. Reloads or Factory loads makes no never mind.

In the 41-44-45 class of cartridge a good flat faced cast bullet will work well for self defense.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Bret4207 - This "dead horse" certainly has lots of riders.

Myself, I handload all my SD ammo. Can't stand the thought of not knowing the details of my SD ammo from first hand knowledge. I envision a burger-flipper running a "factory loader" with ears full of iPod, mind full of mush cranking out rounds. They probably work nearly all the time, but I'll never know.

[armyrat1970]

Bret4207 - This "dead horse" certainly has lots of riders.

Myself, I handload all my SD ammo. Can't stand the thought of not knowing the details of my SD ammo from first hand knowledge. I envision a burger-flipper running a "factory loader" with ears full of iPod, mind full of mush cranking out rounds. They probably work nearly all the time, but I'll never know.

There's really not a damn thing wrong with factory loaded cartridges. They work. No doubt. We cast and handload our own simply because we can get the best and most accurate cartridge for our given handgun or rifle, because we like to do it and it in some ways saves us a little money in doing so. It is a hobby and a sport that we love and apply to not only target, hunting, but also self defense. I believe the latter is the most important.

[JSnover]

Other than 22rf I've never had a problem with factory ammunition. I sorted through the defensive factory stuff and found out what my gun likes.

[Icorps1970]

As a retired Marine I can tell you that the only Ammunition that is legal in combat is factory issued ammunition of the ball variety. This includes the snipers; the ammunition for them is produced by Winchester and is tracked by the lot number to the weapon. It is all NATO approved. Even in a full fledged firefight you need to cover your rear. You can only use issued weapons and ammunition.

Seems like they are using 77 gr Sierra Match Kings in the 5.56 to at least some extent. Could be 1000000 rounds at least if I am properly informed. All gov't issue. Probably for the Army "Squad Marksman Rifle" and the USMC "Squad Advanced Marksman Rifle". These have faster twists, 1-7 or 1-8 if I am properly informed.
IIRC Sierra bullets used to some extent by at least some snipers in VN. This from "93 Confirmed Kills".
Bullets are legal since SMK and other HP *match* designs not DESIGNED specifically as an expandng bullet. Most 5.56 bullets fragment pretty severely anyway.

Dan

[Icorps1970]

Other than 22rf I've never had a problem with factory ammunition. I sorted through the defensive factory stuff and found out what my gun likes.

Once the right load is found its generally very accurate and I have never had a factory round produce a misfire.
I rotate my SD stuff and shoot off the old since body heat or contamination can cause trouble. Once shot off the case gets loaded for practice ammo.
Since digital scales I weight all my handloads even (especially?) large batches done on the Dillon progressive.

Dan

[docmagnum357]

Guys, I am a concealed carry instructor in North Carolina. A few things you really should remember. First, Maas Ayoob, is a writer. And an expert witness. Get him to show you a case wher using home made ammo sent anyone to jail. There Ain't one. Second, Harold Fish was eventually Exonorated. After about a million or more being spent. He used factory ammo. The real problem was the time line that didn't add up, and the fact that the shootee was unarmed. It's a wonder he got out of it. I would have done the same thing. Did you get that? I WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME THING. Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

Shooting someone will change your life forever. Deal with it before you ever buy a gun for self defense. And " I' d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six." is a bunch of poo. Repeat that to yourself twenty times a night when you can't sleep, twenty years later.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't matter if deadly force is applied with a 477 nitro express, or a steak knife, it is deadly force, and it is either justified, or it is not. BUT, remember the Fish case. Juries are made up of people who have been sitting around watching Oprah and DR. Phil for way longer than it takes to turn a human brain to oatmeal. Everybody with good sense is smart enough to get out of jury duty. Attorneys, both defense and prosecution, are looking for a juror that can be led around by the nose. They do not want anyone with even a normal amount of common sense. Also, unless your state has the Florida, Texas, and apparently Ohio provision protecting a legitimate defensive shooter, any one can sue anyone for anything. It costs , what, a dollar or three to buy a box of buckshot, and get ready for a bank robbery? It doesn't cost that much to sue someone, if the lawyer works on a percentage. What do they, or the person you shot, or their family have to lose. If they will threaten your life, they will certainly lie.Especially if an unscrupulous attorney approaches the family, and puts the idea in their head.

I carry Lyman devastators in my .44 magnum for self defense. Loaded to about 1000 fps. Same load I deer hunt with. I cary Winchester Ranger sxt in my 45. I worry more about the " black Talon " association there than I do about handloads. I would get over the equiptment centered thinking, and make sure I knew the law backward and forward in my state. That being said, there are a lot of Terrible ccw instructors. They don't know anything. I study law, and cases, both regular and appelate in my state and other states. I probably know more CASE law than any attorney you could hire. Why? You are more likely to have a coke machine turn over and kill you, than you are to be shot by a licensed ccw permit holder. No lawyer could ever hope to feed his family on those slim pickings. Second, I OWE my students my BEST. If they can't get a straight answer from a lawyer, who are they going to get a staright answer from? I feel like it is kinda my business to tell them what COULD happen. What PROBABLY will happen, and what has already happened. Let them wotk out the percentages.

Barry Kleck tells us thet 2-3 million timesa a year, someone just having a handgun stops a violent encounter, armed robbery, felonius assult, rape, or murder. Since there are only about 1500 justifiable shootings by ccw holders in any given year, this tells us a lot. Most of you won't shoot anyway.. Lt Colonel Dave Grossman says probably only about three percent of us actually have it in us to kill another human being. Half of them are criminals, a good many of the rest are Law enforcement and military. The odds of you ever getting the "oportunity", if you are a three percenter, or " being forced to kill some one" if you are a 97 percenter, is less than being struck by lightning. Doesn't reall much matter if you even have a real gun or not, most of the time. Doesn't matter if you are armed with a .22 or a 44 mag, 99% of the time. if you are a 97% type, you aren't going to be able to line upo the sights and pull the trigger. If you are a 3% type, who has basically been looking for an excuse to shoot somebody all your life, a 22 will probably make it easier. won't hurt your ears so much, and it will be easier to get rapid repeat head shots with.

Patton was a stone killer. He always was the one to put down polo ponies and calvary horses with broken legs. He hunted almost from the time he could walk. Had no problems putting down his own dogs when they were old, sick, or no longer of any use to him. He once shot a mexican bandito in a cantina, and brought him back to camp strapped across the hood of a car, like a dead deer. Askins was a stone killer. He never had a problem doing away with a "bad man".

I would worry a lot more about the mental aspect than equipment. Alvin York was a good shot, but the main thing is he was a stonme cold killer. After the war, he was Church Of God Pastor. His moral compass was very clear to hom. It was no sin to kill Germans in war. SO he did. That moral compass, and the inatet drive to kill are more important than any other consideration. Roosevelt said " Those men who have experienced joy in battle know wat it is when the wolf rises in the heart." If you do not experience joy in battle, take up golf, and hit bad people with a stick. They and you will be much happier. If, you are a three percenter, I pray you never meet a "bad man" in a dark alley. I will hardly matter whether you were even armed or not, much less what you are armed with.

[BAGTIC]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

I carry Speer Gold Dot short barrel ammo in my .357.

On the other hand the jury might think you were an innocuous hobbyist using some marginally lethal homemade bullets to save a few bucks.

On the other hand the guy using the storeboughts went out and purchased sophisticated bullets specially designed to enhance lethality proving he bought them for the purpose of killing someone. No one spends that kind of money on bullets intended for casual plinking.

[BAGTIC]

Doc speaks words of wisdom.

Ignore the BS from the media stars and wannabees.

If a man NEEDS killing he needs killing with whatever is at hand.

If a man doesn't NEED killing it doesn't matter what he is killed with.

[BAGTIC]

A bullet does not need to expand especially bullets with large meplats moving at fairly high velocities. The hydrodynamic spray produced by the meplat will cut an enlarged hole much larger than the diameter of the bullet itself.

[Char-Gar]

Just a couple of thoughts on the subject at hand;

1. A good 44 or 45 cast bullet with a large meplat will do just fine for anti-personal use. If you don't walk away the winner, it will be due to factor's other than the bullet.

2. This factory ammo for legal purposes is total bunk and has been discredited over and over again, but like Freddy Kruger refuses to stay dead.

3. Doc says it as straight and true as it can be said.

For the record, I am a retired lawyer (among other things), did practice criminal law and was also a prosecutor for a time. I still teach Criminal Law and other subjects in the Legal Studies program at our local University. I am also a retired United Methodist Pastor.

[stainless1911]

If you shoot them with a .45, you wanted a big hole they cant climb out of. If you shoot them with a .380, you wanted to watch them bleed out for f*cking with you. If you shoot them with a JHP, you wanted to turn their insides into goo. If you shoot them with handloads, you must be studying to kill.

The best thing to do after a shoot is to SHUT UP! Let the lawyers do the talking, neither you or the perp should be saying anything.

At least here in Michigan, we have castle doctrine. And if you claim self defense, the burden is on the prosecution to prove that it wasn't.

[sergeant69]

If you want to use factory ammo, fine, go ahead. I just question the realities and what people think will really happen. I know that what will happen is unending lawsuits no matter what the circumstances, even if you do slide on the criminal end of it.

And trust ME, after 22 years as a cop I thought about the jury ALL THE TIME! The only reason several people are walking the earth today is because I didn't want to go through the hell of what a shooting entailed.

he's absolutely right. after 24 years as a cop/probation/parole and now w/ corrections, the ONLY reason some richard craniums are still alive is because of the aftermath involved. as a supervisor in the largest prson in texas i assure you we get cussed out and threatened on a daily basis because 4-6 hours of paperwork isn't worth dealing w/it. and it gets worse everyday. imagine what a shooting would entail! BUT.....if its gotta be done its gotta be done. hopefully the LAST thing in the back of ur mind while defending ur family/self is the aftermath. lets hope someday attitudes change and one would get an "atta boy" rather than a "ur screwed" after doing the right thing.

[Piedmont]

Alvin York was a good shot, but the main thing is he was a stonme cold killer. After the war, he was Church Of God Pastor. His moral compass was very clear to hom. It was no sin to kill Germans in war. SO he did.

I think you are completely wrong about Alvin York. There used to be his diary floating around on the internet. I lost it to a computer death but read it several years ago. He was a pious man who said God told him he wouldn't die in the war and in regards to his action in the war stated that his situation was unsurvivable but God protected him. You are making him out to be some 20th century ******, which is a disservice to him and his memory.

[sergeant69]

I think you are completely wrong about Alvin York. There used to be his diary floating around on the internet. I lost it to a computer death but read it several years ago. He was a pious man who said God told him he wouldn't die in the war and in regards to his action in the war stated that his situation was unsurvivable but God protected him. You are making him out to be some 20th century ******, which is a disservice to him and his memory.
i don't think he was a "stone cold killer" either. i just think he was willing to kill when he had to. big diff. in my opinion.

[gray wolf]

Wow to many opinions on this one.
I guess we all have to live with ourselves and what we do or don't do .
Also how we do it. If I looked hard in the mirror and decided I could not defend my life
at the expense of another, I would not carry a pistol.
I would also not load mouse loads for the fear of over penatration, to many things could go wrong. There are some good factory rounds for the folks that live in crowded conditions
or may have a loved one in the next room. It may also require a different mind set about defending your home.
A gun fight is not like a baseball game/win a few loose a few.
There are some events YOU MUST WIN. again how you do it is up to you.
I also agree with the fact that you better know your states laws for deadly force.
Taking a human life is not like shooting a Deer, some can get over it and some can't.
Lets hope we don't have to find out, but make sure it's the BG that gets carried out.
I have not commented on the reload/handload thing.
I think 5 pages about say's it all.

[BAGTIC]

Anyone who thinks he can predict or anticipate the decision of a trial jury is delusional. I have set on seven juries in my lifetime and I can tell you that they are illogical, inconsistent, biased, prejudiced, self contradictory, irrational. Most have their minds made up half way through the trial. Once they have declared a position they would out of stubborn pride risk hell itself before changing their vote. A fair number will blatantly lie to the judge and attorneys during the voire dir.

Worst of all most jurors see themselves as avenging angels. They believe juries exist to punish the guilty. Many believe that it is more imporatant that someone, anyone, be convicted and the case closed than it is that the innocent be set free. I have heard many jurors state that if we don't convict the defendant of something the trial will all be a waste of time and taxpayers money. In two such situations I was responsible for hanging the jury.

[sqlbullet]

i don't think he was a "stone cold killer" either. i just think he was willing to kill when he had to. big diff. in my opinion.

I think Doc means something different by stone cold killer than you do.

I think Doc (and myself) interpret that phrase to mean someone who won't have second thoughts or beat themselves up over killing when killing was the remaining choice.

Lots of people, regardless of how 'right' they think they were, will never forgive themselves for taking a human life. There are some who do not suffer these emotional trials.

I don't interpret Doc's comments to mean that York was a 20th century rambo, or a sociopath who was a criminal killer. I think the same journals that showed him to be a pious man would show he felt he was completely justified in the lives he took.

[sergeant69]

i my business i deal with people that have a mindset whereas stepping on a bug or killing a human evokes the same response-none. others see it as away to gain status among their peers. neither have any remorse at all. to me thats a stone cold killer. i think York did what he had to do and regretted having to do it. thats a soldier doing his job, not a "killer". i kinda think we're on the same page here.

[Bullshop]

I read a book about him that said at first he was an conscientious objector. Afterword he had a vision or something like that and was convinced his service and actions would save lives so he went. You know the rest of the story.

[thx997303]

Anyone who thinks he can predict or anticipate the decision of a trial jury is delusional. I have set on seven juries in my lifetime and I can tell you that they are illogical, inconsistent, biased, prejudiced, self contradictory, irrational. Most have their minds made up half way through the trial. Once they have declared a position they would out of stubborn pride risk hell itself before changing their vote. A fair number will blatantly lie to the judge and attorneys during the voire dir.

Worst of all most jurors see themselves as avenging angels. They believe juries exist to punish the guilty. Many believe that it is more imporatant that someone, anyone, be convicted and the case closed than it is that the innocent be set free. I have heard many jurors state that if we don't convict the defendant of something the trial will all be a waste of time and taxpayers money. In two such situations I was responsible for hanging the jury.

Pretty small sample you're working with there bud.

[Tokarev]

I've been assaulted by some bad ass guys in the streets.
Before being assaulted I thought that one only thinks how to survive.
But the split second standing in front of the assailant, being pulled by the jacket into a car, I was thinking that if I hit the guy in the head, I could kill him the way he was standing (I break boards with a jab). So for that split seconds a whole series of thoughts occurred in my mind. The next he turns his side towards me and I start thinking that if I kicked his knee, he would be injured for life and never walk again. There is no single standard of how people behave in the situations or what they think, cause the people are different. I don't know how jury can decide someone's fate - I would not.

[Merlin43]

I'm old.
I'm not, however, defenseless.
Formerly a Tae Kwan Do master, currently a decent pistolero.
Factory is ok.
Handload is ok.
The object is to (1) have a weapon you are competent with, (2) *really* be competent, (3) UNDERSTAND AND ACCEPT your responsibility for your own action and (4) Act to STOP THE THREAT.
I have defended myself and my family, at close range, more than once. I happen to believe that hand-loads are better. I can prove they are effective, but make no claims as to what anybody else's lawyer will do if anybody else has to defend them.

Tokarev: - if you are threatened, you have a right to defend yourself as needed, "sufficient" force - even if Canada sucks as related to defense law.

[NVScouter]

Umm......WOW really over thinking this.

If you are involved in a shooting go over the shoot not the gear. This is to include the weapon, lights, ammo, sights, etc.

Be brief, honest, to the point, and no speculations.

If the gear comes up just say: "Your Honor I chose to have the most reliable self defense weapon, and I used it when the situation forced me to."

The gear will not be a big deal in a criminal court but a civil case I could see some ambulance chaser trying it.

[XWrench3]

For legal reasons, I would recommend using some sort of store-bought ammo for self defense.

Unless you have handloaders and bullet casters on your jury, they will probably try to make you out to look like some kind of mad scientist. Not worth the legal risk/hassle, IMO.

i guess that would depend on where you lived, and how anti-gun your local prosecutor is. around here, i have been told by several law enforcement officers that if it is a good shoot, it will not matter if you shot them with a bb gun, or a .458 winchester magnum. as for 45 cast bullets, and their expansion or not, i would not worry about that either. anyone getting shot with a 45 acp loaded properly is going to have a real hard time shrugging that off. the 45 was DESIGNED as a man stopper, with full metal jacketed rounds. you would be hard pressed to find any of those rounds that expand in human tissue. and if you are shooting a 45 l.c. or larger, that is even more power. just pray that you never HAVE to shoot another living human being!

[Bret4207]

A few years back we had a guy blow away another guy who was the ex-boyfriend of the shooters lady friend through a door. He used a 12 ga IIRC. The Grand Jury no billed it. Think about that, this is NEW YORK, the guy never got into the house, he got shot through the door with no face to face confrontation and that was the end of it.

I doubt I would walk so easily, but it does make you think about the supposed problems we face.

[9.3X62AL]

I've been shot. I've returned fire with effect. I got sued. I got harassed and projected by the G-- d--- hand-wringing cowards I worked for over a period of years due to that experience. The SOBs finally died or retired, and I got left alone after some years' time. That's called "believing in the 'here after'" in my old trade--believing I'll be here after you useless REMF pogues have died or bleeped off outta here.

Involvement in a lethal threat management incident is not a thing I would wish on my worst enemy, but in a few instances a person may be confronted with no better option. It is for such times that a conscientious self-defender should prepare--and if there is some lesser option afforded you, by all means take it.

Anyone concerned about "handload vs. factory load" is taking a profoundly shallow view of a subject with vastness of depth. I also did investigations of citizen- and officer-involved shootings as part of my work, and the question of handload/factory wasn't even on the radar at the D.A.'s Office. The action taken was justified, or it wasn't--story over. That's in California, too--not a bastion of conservatism or common sense, by any means.

If the Hairball's heirs and assigns wanted to sue us or the involved citizen, $5K to $15K usually made them go away--and a homeowner's insurance carrier will cut checks of that size without breaking a sweat. Same story from the County Counsel--pay the man, and send in the next case. Net result is Justice Served (V. 2.0.1.), lawyers get a couple sailboat or timeshare payments, BabyMama gets a new big-screen TV, and Cousin Eddie gets spinners on his roach coach. Fade to black, segue to ****** commercial.

[MtGun44]

Al,
In KS, if it is a righteous shoot, no civil action is permitted.

I am sorry to hear that your bosses were such idiots. It is a shame for that sort of
non-support to occur.

Please, take no personal offense, I know that staying near jobs, family and homesteads
is important, but I always wonder how bad the antigun atmosphere would have to be
before I would just move.

Born in CA, moved when young, have had many chances to work there in my career, and
some pretty attractive jobs. Not a moment's sleep lost or even an instant of thought,
just - no way.

A good friend, & college roommate has lived in SD for almost 40 yrs, I have visited him
and other CA friends many, many times, plus business trips - usually 2 -3 times
every year. Lots of nice places in CA, but always happy to head home to the real
world. The political atmosphere eventually becomes oppressive to me.

For your service in stopping a violent felon, Thanks. There are some people that do have an
understanding of the necessity.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Kind words, MtnGun. Many thanks, sir.

FWIW, I carry my old agency's current authorized factory ammo in my sidearms and rifles when they go in harm's way/on the street. If some fool wants to try nonsense while I'm hunting, he/she runs the risk of stopping a soft-pointed casting or Taracorp SWC. I think Massad Ayoob has a right to be wrong, and I'm glad to see he exercises same to great fullness and depth. And while my iconoclasm is in full flower, I'll add that Fackler makes a lame, sorry excuse for an oracle too.

What I do isn't given as a recommendation. I truly don't think it matters a darn whether a self-defender uses home-crafted castings or factory ammo in his/her firearm. Do what makes you feel most comfortable. In just the 28 years I did cop work (1977-2005) the advances in bullet technology were extensive, and such advances continue. Still, there are no magic bullets--they must be well-placed for best results, and no guarantees exist that incapacitation of an assailant will result. It's all a gamble. I wish the facts were more encouraging, but that's just the way things are.

[Bret4207]

Silly old Al. Trying to interject common sense into an argument of emotion and ego.

[PhantomRider64]

Needless to say this thread got jacked quick,,,:-o

I always have a firearm or more loaded in my home for defense, occasionally I carry when away from home. I mainly grew up im several of the suburbs around Atlanta, Ga. During that time I did not carry but used common sense and some tips from some police friends. 1- stay out of areas you have no business in,,,go around,,,especially at night. 2- be aware and alert of your surroundings,,,look at people,,,opportunistic thugs hate knowing you saw them before they were ready. These methods worked for me for many years and I still use them,,,especially when I carry.

Home load or factory,,,In a life threatening situation I would not care as long as the ammunition works as it should. I however do have factory Hornady ammunition in my .45 Auto. When it is possible for a prosecutor to say that you were out to kill because you were carrying a concealed weapon what difference does the ammunition make?

For me,,,I will defend myself and loved ones with actions or such force that will end the situation,,,period! It may very well happen that if a perp raises a 9mm to me,,,sideways:razz:,,,I may very well freeze and not be able to draw my firearm,,,I may take his,,,I may draw mine and the perp runs off,,,I may have to kill him. At this time I do not know what will happen. I practice with my firearms, I hit what I aim at, and I am comfortable with them. In the heat of the moment I cannot say how I might react, I do think about it, and the consequences of my actions, from time to time and always end up at the conclusion that I will not know till the situation arises. I sincerely hope that I never have to find out.

Everyone has their opinion on the different aspects of a defensive shooting, for me it just boils down to keeping myself and family safe.

[9.3X62AL]

Avoidance of potential trouble by re-routing, re-timing, or refusing to travel through dodgy areas is a GREAT strategy for surviving. If the attack never comes, there is a lot less to worry about.

This thread began almost 9 years ago. In my home state (CA), much has changed that makes the landscape significantly more dangerous for decent folks. The effective sentencing measures collectively known as "3 Strikes Statutes" that intended to keep career violent criminals behind bars have been largely vacated. The care of monsters is expensive, and the State of California is cutting its costs for this care through both wholesale release of hardened offenders and by foisting off the custody costs on the counties where the convictions originated. The net effect is that crime rates are rising, because there are more crooks now at large within our society.

What this means to a citizen wishing to keep him/herself safe is that the State has foisted more of the responsibility for citizens staying safe onto the citizens. IMHO, neither the State no the County that I worked for were ever very serious about getting a handle on criminal activity, but the scenario I described above concerning crime prevention has become more obvious with the tsunami of prison releases that have resulted from the realignments and adjustments to prison populations. In short, citizens are obliged to make their property more secure through target-hardening, and to make their lives and safety more assured through strategizing and up-arming. Know also that you will not be shooting people over property losses--those days are gone. The people we will be engaging will not be fleeing--they will be coming at us and likely are in our face, and under the influence of one or more racing fuels/sedatives that anaesthetize them against felt pain and the distractions posed by same. BE SERIOUS--the 38 Special and the 9mm Luger are the "floor" calibers in this venue, and a caliber whose first numeral descriptor has a "4" in it--40, 41, 44, 45--is probably a better option. Use as much gun as you can manage in terms of weight, recoil, and slide manipulation. Your life--and the lives of those you presume to protect--literally depend upon your choices. And--as California shows by its actions--YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. The likelihood of police arriving in time to intervene effectively is very remote. There is too little money--too few assigned officers--and too much area to cover. The government is not serious about public safety--YOU will need to become earnest in your intent to survive criminal depredations.

[JBinMN]

^Absolutely correct^

Not to forget the ones who arrive & then wait by their squad cars...

That really ticked me off when I read about it.
:mad:

You are really on yur own & not just on the West Coast.

[PhantomRider64]

That is the way I feel. It amazes me the way they let prisoners out to save money. I think if prisoners want to eat, let their family pay for it or bring it to them.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

[Tom W.]

To the old original thread.... wasn't a cast TC bullet in the 9mm Luger and the "council" tried to ban it as being inhumane?

[9.3X62AL]

To the old original thread.... wasn't a cast TC bullet in the 9mm Luger and the "council" tried to ban it as being inhumane?

As has been seen with the latest atrocities performed by goblins in gun-free zones, the opinions on arms/ammo/citizen CCW get sprayed all over MSM. The weak-minded and the agenda-driven find a news crew to bleat and bloviate in front of, and the hoplophobic drumbeat continues. In reality, I wonder how many people pay much attention to the drivel being posed and produced by MSM these days.

But that is another question. Like JB in MN, I am disgusted and disappointed in the performance of the Broward County deputies on scene at the most recent school-site shooting. I have A LOT of pointed questions about policy, training, and doctrine at that shop. I will reserve judgement until a better summation of their training regimen comes to light. When 4 deputies make the same decision to pause outside the kill zone, SOMETHING directed that decision. The citizens of Broward County should get answers to these questions.

In the wake of Columbine 1999, my shop instituted a program to install patrol rifles in the patrol cars that roam our county. The principal rationale for that adoption was Columbine, but my county endured the Norco Bank Robbery in 1980 and was close to the North Hollywood Bank Robbery in 1997. Christopher Dorner's serial local atrocities in 2013 kept the idea fresh, as well. It made sense to have rifles in the field, and we have fielded Mini-14s since the late 1980s when our SWAT teams up-armed to select-fire M-16A2, M-4, and Colt SMG systems.

There has been no info regarding level of armament in the hands of the Broward County personnel. In May 1980 when my shop's deputies engaged rifle-toting goblins with revolvers and shotguns, we got our azzes handed to us. If the Broward County people were limited to sidearms and shotguns, I can understand their reluctance to advance into rifle fire. I always had the Rem 870 with deer slugs in my patrol cars, which is sort of half-way between a shotgun and a rifle. And there was always an AR-15 in the trunk, as well.

HELL YES I would have advanced!! That is not even a question. But maybe I was better-trained and better-equipped than the Broward County deputies were. All I know is this--the citizens of my county expected me to hunt armed men that threatened their safety, and I always moved toward the sound of gunfire for 28 years. I would NEVER let my citizens down.

[Tom W.]

My reference was to the original load for the Luger.

The current press is mostly commentary and opinion rather than facts. I'm sure that all of us, if we want opinion or feelings, can form our own.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Shoot em if ya got em.

[Hannibal]

Needless to say this thread got jacked quick,,,:-o

It remained silent in the archives for 8 years until you choose to revive it.

[6bg6ga]

It doesn't make any difference how long this thread was on ice. It was revived and so be it. I personally use either wheel weights or pure lead as my bullet of choice for my 1911's and moderate 9mm loading. As mentioned the diameter of the 45 will be a factor with the size of the hole and if a bone is hit for example you can probably count for some extra expansion and more diameter. I don't worry about expansion simply because there is always another bullet in the chamber.

[trapper9260]

I had read this post some time ago and glad it came back up.To learn and see what some of the things that can happened.It refresh ones mind.