45 acp seating issues

[ljshooter]

I am having issues seating a 45 acp cast boolit.

Specs:

Lyman 2 cavity 225 grn 452
Dillon 550B
Lee dies with factory crimp die

1.272 OAL
.470 Crimp


When I run the boolit through the crimping die three things may happen.
1. Boolit is pushed down into the case
2. Boolit is pulled up out of the case to the grease grove
3. I can easily push the boolit into the case

I don't know what I am doing wrong, can somebody please help me out here? :(

[webby4x4]

I'm relatively new to reloading, but I recently experienced a slightly similar problem. It turned out that I was over crimping the brass. When I backed off the crimp completely, the bullet locked into place perfectly.

As I was told by a more seasoned reloader... (paraphrasing) "Lead is a dead metal and does not rebound when compressed. Brass, being and alloy metal, does rebound upon compressions".

So, I would crimp the brass, it would compress the lead, and then the brass would rebound by a small amount. Just enough so that the bullet would spin inside the cartridge.

On the same note:
1) I assume you're resizing your brass before you seat it?
2) Try *JUST* seating the bullet without actually crimping it to see what happens.

Rick

[Blammer]

Bingo! that would be my guess.

[MtGun44]

Get a taper crimp die to replace the factory crimp die. Set the taper crimp to
remove the flare and push the case mouth brass into the boolit about 1/2 the
thickness of the brass (use magnification) or less. Set LOA to match a factory
ball round, I only know the 200 SWC length off the top of my head as I rarely load
the 225-230 RN boolits. Good boolit design, .452 should be proper diam.

Dismount your barrel and use the chamber as a gauge. The loaded round should
seat into the chamber with no more than a very light push, freely dropping all the
way in with the bbl muzzle down is best, but not absolutely necessary. If the round
will not seat easily look for rifling markes on the boolit just ahead of the case. If
marks, seat maybe .010 deeper. If no markes and difficulty chambering, increase
the TC a touch and retest.

Bill

[ljshooter]

Problem fixed. Thanks.

[webby4x4]

Yeah I do too. But when you rezize and deprime, you have to tumble to get the lube off. That's when I get the media stuck in the flash hole.

+1 to MtGun44... I had to go through that exact same exercise for my 9mm, to find out the appropriate seating depth. There is a HUGE variance between two of my 9mm's in the COAL. I was really surprised by it too.

Rick

[markinalpine]

for an autoloding pistol IS a taper crimp die.
"Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit
as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to
auto-loader rounds." From the Lee catalog.

Mark :coffee:

[high standard 40]

The taper crimp is the ticket for 45ACP. But if the case has been sized correctly, the bullet should be a tight fit in the case and not easily pull out. I've loaded many 45ACPs with RCBS dies and have never experienced this problem. The lead vs brass statement is correct as far as rebound but below the case mouth the case should remain unchanged by the crimp die. Case sidewall tension would have to be too low for the bullet to become loose. That taper crimp die must be affecting
at least a third of the case length for this to happen.

[StarMetal]

Does taper crimping work? Yes, but I, like the NRA, feel it's a solution to the problem of not being able to assemble pistol ammunition correctly. Here is an excerpt from the NRA Cast Bullet Book:

Value of Crimp

Factory jacketed bullets are not crimped, but the cases are new and made to press fit on the hard bullets. A lead bullet should not fit this tightly, as it could in effect resize those carefully-made bullets down to any odd diameter. A crimp solves these problems and its value has been well proven through much personal experience. See the table for the result of firing tests where the only variation was in the crimp. (I'm adding in that the roll crimp out shot the taper crimp every time).

The crimp also removes the flare that was put on to facilitate seating the bullet.

There are 2 basic types of crimp used. One, the roll crimp, is done with the standard bullet-seating die. The other is the taper crimp which necessitates another die and another operation on most loading tools. This extra effort is of rather doubtful worth as may be judged by the results.

Roll crimp as used here means that about .020" of the case mouth is rolled over and forced into the bullet. Mouth diameter is reduced to .460". The taper crimp reduces the case mouth the same diamter, but has a swaging effect on the bullet for a much greater distance.

It has been said that the .45 ACP case must not be crimped because the cartridge seats on the case mouth. This is true as far as it goes, but consider the other aspects of the situation.

The semi-wadcutter bullet, the only once considered here, should be seated out of the case about .015" to .025" and the case crimped into the bullet shoulder.


Back to my statement. Good, if not better, ammunition can be assembled with the regular roll crimp if the reload knows how to do it right.

What's next, taper crimping all rifle ammo?

Just my one sided two cents.

Joe

[captaint]

Maybe I'm thick, but I don't know why were discussing roll crimping and 45acp, at least for autoloaders. It's always been my understanding that one can't roll crimp for an autoloader because headspace is made on case mouth. When I seat my 200gr swc's in the Lee dies, the seater removes the flare. I have actually considered stopping right there and see what happends at the range. My case lengths are all at least .005 below max. I have been using the factory crimp (taper) die and all has been OK, but I have wondered about not using it at all. Anybody try this?

[webby4x4]

I have actually considered stopping right there and see what happends at the range. My case lengths are all at least .005 below max. I have been using the factory crimp (taper) die and all has been OK, but I have wondered about not using it at all. Anybody try this?

In essence, I do this on both my 9mm and my .45ACP loads. I bell the mouth, and adjust the seating/crimp dies so that it only removes the bell and does not crimp it. In fact, that was the only way I could reload my 9mm cast boolits (adding any taper crimp at all caused major retention problems for me).

Under a strong magnifying glass, I can see that I have the tiniest of taper, but it would be something like 1/5th of a human hair - a blonde one at that :)

Rick

[StarMetal]

Maybe I'm thick, but I don't know why were discussing roll crimping and 45acp, at least for autoloaders. It's always been my understanding that one can't roll crimp for an autoloader because headspace is made on case mouth. When I seat my 200gr swc's in the Lee dies, the seater removes the flare. I have actually considered stopping right there and see what happends at the range. My case lengths are all at least .005 below max. I have been using the factory crimp (taper) die and all has been OK, but I have wondered about not using it at all. Anybody try this?

Maybe you should read that NRA article. It has a diagram of a proper roll crimp and explains how it works. They specify a .020" roll crimp and no more. They explain too how to maintain proper headspace by seating the bullet to kiss the leade. You can also adjust the roll crimp feature in the standard seating die to crimp and still leave a case mouth edge.

To answer your question about no crimp at all, I've rolled crimped just enough to remove the flare. Worked fine. Depends what type of firearm you are shooting them in too. I've shot 45 acp's with my roll crimps in more firearms chambered for them then I can remember.

Joe

[captaint]

Well see there? Live & learn. The NRA article - where can I find that? This business of the boolit entering the lands, that does make sense. I am currently shooting a new 1911 and have been closing the slide by dropping the slide release. Last time out I thought I would try just manually releasing the slide - didn't close all the way, so I know my boolit is in the lands. My OAL has been 1.250 due to recommendation of Wilson magazines and all has been fine with that.

[high standard 40]

Star Metal.
The info you posted is pretty much the way I have been doing it for years. My RCBS dies date back to about 1980 and are of the roll crimp variety but I never crimp. I set my dies to just remove the flair. When loading cast. I use a spare barrel to set up my seating depth by sliding a case with bullet seated into the chamber and check chambered length for headspace on the barrel. I start with a bullet seated out and gradually increase seating depth till the headspace is correct. In most instance, the shoulder of the bullet headspaces on the leade. Then I set the die to just remove the flair and lock it down. I've never actually tried a taper crimp die but have heard many say it was the best. I never saw the need.

[StarMetal]

Star Metal.
The info you posted is pretty much the way I have been doing it for years. My RCBS dies date back to about 1980 and are of the roll crimp variety but I never crimp. I set my dies to just remove the flair. When loading cast. I use a spare barrel to set up my seating depth by sliding a case with bullet seated into the chamber and check chambered length for headspace on the barrel. I start with a bullet seated out and gradually increase seating depth till the headspace is correct. In most instance, the shoulder of the bullet headspaces on the leade. Then I set the die to just remove the flair and lock it down. I've never actually tried a taper crimp die but have heard many say it was the best. I never saw the need.

Like you my dies are RCBS also and they date in the 70's. Here's another reason I use those old die and they require to lube the cases. 45 ACP and 9mm are tapered cases. I don't use carbide because I want my case shaped the way they were designed to be shaped...and that's tapered. I've been shooting 45 ACP from early 70's and roll crimping them as I described. I see no need for taper crimp dies and only see them as a solution for a problem that "shouldn't" exist.

Joe

[BruceB]

Starmetal and the NRA are (and were) correct. My cast-bullet .45 ACP loading also began about forty years ago, and I'd hate to try to total the numbers over that span of years. I was gonna sit this one out, but too many folks just aren't getting the point.

A roll crimp, as espoused by Joe and supported by the NRA article, WORKS. It works very well, and the cartridge simply doesn't care what mechanism we use to give it a proper orientation in the chamber. Like Joe, I set the headspace by using the contact of the bullet itself against the rifling origin.

The roll crimp has worked perfectly for me on thousands upon thousands of .45 ACP rounds, because the case mouth is not used or needed for headspacing when the bullet is performing that function. One ADVANTAGE of the roll crimp in .45 ACP is that it provides a positive stop to prevent deep-seating of the bullet under feeding impacts.

I will admit that I've also used a taper-crimp die on a lot of .45 ACPs, but there is no appreciable advantage in accuracy (or anything else) that I have detected, and there is a reduction in security of bullet retention when compared to the roll crimp. The "in-case bullet sizing" performed by the taper crimpers not only modifies the carefully-calculated diameter of the bullet, but of course contributes to the diminished security of the bullet's retention. Even with taper-crimping, I still set the headspace using the bullet-to-rifling contact.

In my match-shooting days, all this was much more important to me than it is now. However, all my match-shooting with the .45 was done with roll-crimped rounds, and their functioning and accuracy was just fine....the biggest problem was ME, the nut behind the trigger. Nowadays, I still shoot a lot of .45 but seem to have more "fun" doing it. There are about 4,000 loaded rounds out back....maybe it's time I picked up the pace a little.

[Echo]

I taper-crimp my .45 rounds, but I use a fairly hard alloy and don't TC a bunch - just enough to remove the flair. and I seat the boolit out. If a SWC (my usual), about .050 of the shoulder is exposed to contact the lead. A little more wouldn't hurt, and less might not hurt, either.

[mpmarty]

I am very impressed with the Lee Factory Crimp Die with the collet mechanism for rifle cartridges. The same cannot be said for their FCD for pistols as it "post sizes" which makes the boolit loose in the cartridge and ruins an otherwise good round. I have both roll and taper crimp dies for .45acp and find that properly adjusted it makes no difference which is used, they can both do a fine job or ruin a cartridge.

[David R]

Case mouth tension and boolit size are what is important. The loaded round should headspace on the boolit to fit the gun its going to be shot from. That is why we reload aint it?

I roll crimp in a separate stage, but not much at all for the 45 acp. I use the same dies for the 45 colt and roll crimp into the crimp groove.

I don't think I have seen a case that headspaced properly even in my Wilson match grade barrel. Never trimmed a 45 acp case yet. All I shoot are 452460 and the case mouth lands on the first driving band with a little of it sticking out. The back of the cartridge ends up flush with the barrel hood.

captaint, your loads are right on the money! A nice snug fit to start the boolit off straight. That is how mine come out.

David :)

[MtGun44]

I'm with mpmarty.

Lee FCD for rifles is excellent. A normal TC die just removes the flare, and adds a bit of
taper. In my experience, this is useful to prevent the boolit from pushing into cases
that have thinner than optimum wall thickness. In my experience a lot of Remington
.45 ACP brass years ago was very much thinner than all the other brands, and without
a decent crimp, bullet tension could be marginal or worse. Running thousands of IPSC loads with
mixed range brass is a lot different than putting together ammo for 2700 Bullseye.
Reliable large quantities of reasonably accurate ammo is the goal.

Yes, roll crimping can work well. It is, however MUCH more sensitive to brass length. This is
just fine for bullseye ammo, but fairly impractical with mixed brass. Since your brass gets
mixed up with others when shooting IPSC matches, even if you started out with all new
matched brass, you will not have that for very long. I have shot IPSC for years and my
brass is as mixed as you can imagine. TC works with huge differences in length and
wall thickness and produces consistent and reliable ammo. I would expect roll crimp ammo
to be much more variable due to the large variability in brass length and to a lesser
extent, brass thickness. Might not happen, but I am absolutely certain it will not happen with
a TC.

Sizing the loaded round is a wrong headed approach and I would never use a Lee pistol
FC die. Lee is very innovative and has developed lots of really good NEW ideas. This one
strikes me as a really bad idea.

Bill

[StarMetal]

I'm with mpmarty.

Lee FCD for rifles is excellent. A normal TC die just removes the flare, and adds a bit of
taper. In my experience, this is useful to prevent the boolit from pushing into cases
that have thinner than optimum wall thickness. In my experience a lot of Remington
.45 ACP brass years ago was very much thinner than all the other brands, and without
a decent crimp, bullet tension could be marginal or worse. Running thousands of IPSC loads with
mixed range brass is a lot different than putting together ammo for 2700 Bullseye.
Reliable large quantities of reasonably accurate ammo is the goal.

Yes, roll crimping can work well. It is, however MUCH more sensitive to brass length. This is
just fine for bullseye ammo, but fairly impractical with mixed brass. Since your brass gets
mixed up with others when shooting IPSC matches, even if you started out with all new
matched brass, you will not have that for very long. I have shot IPSC for years and my
brass is as mixed as you can imagine. TC works with huge differences in length and
wall thickness and produces consistent and reliable ammo. I would expect roll crimp ammo
to be much more variable due to the large variability in brass length and to a lesser
extent, brass thickness. Might not happen, but I am absolutely certain it will not happen with
a TC.

Sizing the loaded round is a wrong headed approach and I would never use a Lee pistol
FC die. Lee is very innovative and has developed lots of really good NEW ideas. This one
strikes me as a really bad idea.

Bill

Well again, loading 45 ACP since early 70 mixed cases, foreign cases, you name it....nary ever a problem with a roll crimp. Sorry have to disagree with you on that one. I've never ever trimmed a 45 ACP case. Now with this new dang match 9mm Kart barrel I am having to trim them.

Joe

[geargnasher]

:hijack: Sorry to continue the digression, but had to put in mho on the "Factory crimp" die: great for rifle cartridges and jacketed bullets with cannelures that really need a solid crimp in the cannelure just like factory tube-magazine ammo that takes no consideration of throat length or leade. I have loaded a bazillion .30-30 rounds like this with jhp and some 7mm rem mag hunting loads with Barnes X that kept jumping out of the cases in the magazine under recoil (I single-load all benchrest stuff) with the excellent factory crimp die, but I see using such a powerful case-swager on .45 acp as worse than useless, as has been stated many times on this thread it actually causes the mouth of the case to LOSE tension instead of snugging down. I use a Lee carbide acp set that taper-crimps and I set it to just remove the bell or "flare" that the expander puts in it and never knew I was doing it wrong. This also enables me to seat and "crimp" in one operation on my single stage, something I have never felt comfortable doing with a med. to heavy roll crimp (like on .44 or .357 mag).

As to the topic post, my first thought was how much experience did you have reloading before buying the Dillon? I can't assume how well versed you are in single-stage sizing, expanding, seating, and crimping to know where to start in offering suggestions. If you have been doing this a while, just try to duplicate your single-stage settings for the Dillon, same principle.

Hope this helps,

Gear