Lyman 45, 450, 4500 - differences?

[trooperdan]

I see these models frequently offered used and was wondering what the major differences are between them?

[Cherokee]

The 45 is an early tool. I bought one well used in early 60's and still use it today. It is less robust than the 450 & 4500. The 450 was a new design and stronger. I bought one when they came out and still use it today, but it is well worn. I have read of people busting the linkage on them but they were usually over-tasking the device. The current 4500 is a stronger redesign of the 450 that also has the lube heater capability for use with the hard lube common today. I bought one and like it very much. Someone must have pic's they can post

[Swagerman]

I have a Lyman 45 old lube-sizer and its never let me down except to leak too much residue lube on the bullet at times.

Now the Lyman 450 really let me down, it's bent double tined handle broke at the bend points...too much spinging action I would surmise. I took that affair off and ordered the new 4500 handle and mounted it to one side of the ram, thus enabling me to continue using the old ram puncher.

Then I decided to buy myself a Star lube-sizer press...the rest is history.


Jim :smile:

[Cherokee]

I also have a Star sizer but it is not the answer to all challenges, which is why I still have the Lyman machines. Never had a problem sizing overside bullets in the Lyman but got to be careful with the Star if big bullets (44-45) with lots are surface are to be sized down much. However, the Star is the speed king for sizing-lub'ing bullets.

[trooperdan]

Does anyone know if whatever updates were made to the 4500 could be applied to update a 45 or 450?

[StarMetal]

Dan,

I know you can put the more modern 0-ring reservoir piston and threaded shaft in it. Other then those the design of the old 45 is totally different then the newer ones. Now I will tell you when I get ahold of the proper tap, I am going to thread an old 45 for using a sizing die retainer nut instead of just relying on that thumb screw to hold it in, too much lube leakage the old way.

That would about cover updating old ones.

Joe

[trooperdan]

Thanks guys!

[26Charlie]

My first sizer was the Lyman 45, bought it when I was 15 yrs old. It broke a few weeks ago - the handle pivot screw broke off. Lyman had no parts, and later models of the 45 had that screw replaced by a pin, so I drilled out the hole in the body to 5/16" (diameter of the pivot screw) and got a 5/16 clevis pin for $1.55 from the hardware store. You need to go to a hardware store that still has the aisleway of little drawers with all different kinds of fasteners. When I see a sizer in decent shape for $25 I pick it up - have got another Lyman 45, a 450, and 2 RCBS's on the bench. The hold-down screw for the dies on the 450 and the RCBS's is a pain because it makes changing dies slower. The 450 linkage screws are not so great - mine have all been replaced by quarter-inch bolts, which are still bent anyway.
The "new style" Lyman H&I dies have an O ring, which comes apart after a while from the lube on the rubber making it swell up. You can get O rings at the aforementioned hardware store in the plumbing department from another of those little drawers for about 5 cents each. Take a die with you so you get the right diameter.
I set up the 450 and the RCBS's for often used diameters like .309 and .452 and .430, and use the 45's for other diameters so I can change the dies easily.

The old style H&I dies have no O ring and have a stepped interior instead of a smooth taper, which makes sizing a crimp-on gas check bullet a major effort - has anybody tapered out one of the old stlye H&I dies? How is it done?

[Bent Ramrod]

I kind of prefer the #45, just on the basis of its looks. Whenever I can find one cheap, I grab it up on general principle. When I retire, I'm going to have the largest bullet lube experiment ever going; a different mixture in every machine.

I gather that the only reason the Lyman #450 came about was the Lyman Co. were making their molds to wider and wider tolerances towards the end of the 1950's and the little #45, for all its virtues, is not really happy sizing 4 or 5 thou off a bullet, especially a big one. The #450, the Lachmiller and the RCBS (which as far as I can see is a Lachmiller without the auto-grease feature and with a coat of green paint), as well as the SAECO, also had the virtue of having the die (theoretically) more in line with the top punch. The little set screw on the #45 could push a slightly undersized H die off-center enough to be noticeable if you tightened it enough, while the screw-in nut on the others centers the die better.

My only other working sizer-luber is the Lachmiller, which I've fitted out with a heater. That's the one I use when I use Rooster Red, Apache Blue, and the other hard bullet lubes. For Javelina, SPG, Ideal, and so forth, the #45 gets the nod.

Any and all of them can be made to ooze grease into the wrong places in an annoying fashion. Once you get the feel of the little wrench relative to the size of your bullet, the number of grooves, and the speed of your lubing, there is somewhat less trouble. What mess is left is a bagatelle compared to pan lubing, Kake Cutters and schmearing the stuff on the outside by hand.

26 charlie,

I've converted several of the old "step" type dies to taper. I bored the taper in the lathe once or twice but now I just get a dowel of the proper size with #320 emery cloth and spin the die in the chuck while pushing the dowel in and out the first half inch or so. I then polish with #400 and #600 emery and crocus. You can see when the "step" disappears and the part of the die below it doesn't get the emery treatment, so it doesn't change size.

[bisley45]

I just got a new #4500 the bigest dif from it and the450 is the lube heater the 450 heater is a plate that the 450 mounts on and the new 4500 has a hole in the rear of the sizer that you insert the heating elament in

[montana_charlie]

The 450 linkage screws are not so great - mine have all been replaced by quarter-inch bolts, which are still bent anyway.
I spent most of my life as a 'city person'. When I built something that was intended to be 'beefy', it usually had 1/4 inch bolts. If it was 'massive' it needed 3/8 inch fasteners.

Now, I have been a 'country person' for 20 years, and rarely look for a bolt as tiny as 1/4 inch. But every bolt I buy is Grade 5 steel. The extra cost is very small, and you night have fewer problems with bent hardware.
CM

[Edward429451]

I have an old version 450 (double tined handle) and a new(er) version 450 (round handle) and I like the older version better. The only thing that ever broke on the older one was the long threaded screw inside at the bottom. Replaced it and it's probably good for another 30-40 yrs. The newer version snapped the handle, and linkage pins (several times).

Come to think pf it, it's never broke on me...just my buddy who like to help. He must be leaning on it too hard.

I've heard lots of bad stuff about the new 4500. Hesitant to buy one.

[Edward429451]

<The 450 linkage screws are not so great - mine have all been replaced by quarter-inch bolts, which are still bent anyway.>

Agreed! (snap). Tried 1/4" bolts (snap), tried 1/4" drill bit shanks (tool steel?) Bent.

Grade 5 eh? Thanks.

[StarMetal]

I've had my Lyman 450 for over 20 years. Haven't broken or bent a thing on it. I even size down jacketed bullets on it. Ask Buckshot about me sizing .338 Jacketed down for use in the 8x56R. I only made one mod to my Lyman and that is where the handle connects, I made spacer to keep the ends of the handle lever from sliding in, that's it.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Depending on my use for it, I'll buy Grade 8 bolts.

Joe

[nighthunter]

You can upgrade the handle and linkage of a 450. Go to Lymans site and look under replacement parts. I updated mine several years ago and its almost like haveing a new sizer. I think the cost was under $30.
Nighthunter

[JBMauser]

to all of you who talk about old step dies, can you look at my new post at this site and tell me if that is what I have, also, which sizer /sizers do they fit? thanks JBMauser.

[JBMauser]

to all of you who talk about old step dies, can you look at my new post at this site and tell me if that is what I have, also, which sizer /sizers do they fit? thanks JBMauser.

[imashooter2]

Dan,

I know you can put the more modern 0-ring reservoir piston and threaded shaft in it. -snip-

They changed the thread in the piston? Damn, that doubles the cost of the conversion...

[StarMetal]

No they didn't actually, but alot of them are boogered up. That can be eliminated.

Joe

[montana_charlie]

I let this thread 'cool' for a while so I wouldn't hijack somebody's discussion. But the title of it points at my Lyman #45, so I wanted to talk about it for a bit.

First thing is...I don't know how to use mine.
That is to say that, with no instruction manual...or demonstrations by an experienced user, I just 'fiddle' with it until it starts doing things the way I think it should.
Meanwhile, I keep seeing threads where people have problems with grooves not filling, lube under the bullet base, and too much lube flowing because of too many holes in the die.

I can see how keeping firm pressure on the bullet nose while cranking the rachet should keep lube from getting under the base...but if grooves don't fill it seems that the bullet is simply not deep enough in the die.

When I lubed my first .45 caliber 500 grainer, only the bottom two grooves filled up. I just kept fiddling with the stop until the slug got deep enough to fill all four.

Now, I don't remember (at this moment) how many holes are drilled in the side of my die, but it seems to me that it doesn't matter.
If I was lubing a short bullet, in a die with four holes per side, is it really necessary to plug those lower holes with shot?
Doesn't the ejector pin block lube from flowing through any holes that are below your bullet's base?

I'm ready to modify my thinking (if not my methods) if any of you experienced guys care to show me how I'm wrong.

Second thing is...I don't know how to use mine.
That is to say that, I sure would appreciate it if one of you guys could fix me up with a copy of the instructions for the old #45. I'd like to see how close I have come to doing it 'right'.
CM

[StarMetal]

I don't care what the others say, I size and lube very short pistol bullets in a die with very many rows of holes and have no problems at all. I agree with you that you simply don't push the bullet as deep in the die and yes the plunger does seal off the other holes. After all if it didn't when there wasn't a bullet in the die it would ooze lube.

Joe

[carpetman]

405,4455,4050.

[montana_charlie]

405,4455,4050.
Clearly written and adequately punctuated...but I don't have a clue about the meaning.
CM

[carpetman]

Montana Charlie---Look at the title of the thread---45,450 and 4500 differences. Some of the differences would be those numbers I posted. 405 for example is the difference between 450 and 45.

[imashooter2]

LOL! You're going to have to get used to that sort of thing if you want to hang out here Montana...

[omgb]

On RCBS and Lyman lube machines, the number of holes in the die is moot. Many or few, you adjust the amount and location of the lube by raising or lowering the depth limiter screw on the bottom of the press. However, on the Star dies, the number of holes does make a difference as does their location. Unless you have a Star machine, don't worry about the holes. Now, the Lyman 45 is one of the earlier models and it lacks leverage and strength. It will do pistol bullets all day long with no trouble. Most 30 cal bullets are OK too provided one does not try and go more than .002+/- on the sizing. If you are doing longer larger bullets or really sizing the crap out of them, you need either the RCBS or the Lyman 450/4500. If you plan on sizing large numbers of bullets, start thinking about the Star. That's my $.02 on the matter based on my experience. YMMV
R J Talley AKA OMGB

[omgb]

I should add, the reason the number and location of holes makes a difference on Star machines is that they have no limiter screws. They size in a straight through fashion with the sized and lubed bullet dropping out the bottom of the press into a tray or onto a rag.

[Duckiller]

Charlie, Lyman will send you a xerox of the manual for the 45, at least they did for me. If they won't send me a PM and I will make a copy of mine and send it to you. Or ignore Lyman and just PM me. Duckiller

[montana_charlie]

LOL! You're going to have to get used to that sort of thing if you want to hang out here Montana...
If you mean getting used to being the only guy in the crowd who's not quite sure what's going on...I've been used to that for a long time.

Or ignore Lyman and just PM me. Duckiller
Thanks, Duckiller. PM on it's way.
CM

[Bob S]

I have a few 45's ... one for Alox-based lube, one for SPG, and a "spare". I have worn out two 450's, one was the old gray model, one was the newer orange one. The linkage broke on the gray one first; then the ram wore to the point that I could wiggle it all over the place ... not good at all for keeping the bullets straight into the dies. Same thing happened with the newer orange one, 'cept it took much much less use to wear to that condition. The old 45's have three guides for the ram; they are much used, but they maintain their alignment much better, and there is NO slop in either one. I can live with the leakage. I just scrape up what oozes out and put it in an Altoids tin, and it goes back in the reservoir when changing to a new stick.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Cherokee]

Montana - seems you have basically worked out how to use the old #45. :smile: That is what I started with 40 years ago, without an instruction book also. Still have it along with the 450, 4500 and Star.

[montana_charlie]

I have a few 45's ... I can live with the leakage. I just scrape up what oozes out and put it in an Altoids tin, and it goes back in the reservoir when changing to a new stick.
This leakage is something I have seen you guys talk about, but have not experienced.

I noticed (a couple of days after my first lubing session) that there was a wad of lube oozed up around the top edges of the ejector pin. Maybe there was enough to lube one bullet.

Since that time, when finished lubing, I simply turn my ratchet over and give the lube rod a half-turn in the other direction. That should reduce pressure in the lube tube.

Haven't seen any other instances of 'leakage', but perhaps that will change now that I have finished building my lubrisizer heater.

It started life as a coffee cup warmer like this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4443628832&ssPageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BID_IT), but has been 'transformed' so it's heating element is sandwiched between two 1/4" aluminum plates that the Lyman #45 sits on top of.

Total cost? Aroun' fo' bucks...and it has an On/Off switch with indicator light, and a Hi/Lo heat selector switch.

I am just now testing it for the first time, and would call it 'slow but safe' because it looks like it is unlikely to reach uncomfortably high temperatures. After an hour it has brought the temperature up to 100° from a nominal room temp of about 75°. This on the 'Hi' setting.

My plan is to let it get up to about 110° and switch to 'Lo'...to see if it still rises, or just maintains that.

About the 'best' temperature for lubing...
I'm currently using SPG, and only plan to use the heater to 'temper' the lube for 'summertime shooting'. SPG is said to melt at 140°.

Do you guys who use heaters have any thoughts on what might be the best temperature to use?
CM

[Bob S]

I just scrape up what oozes out and put it in an Altoids tin, and it goes back in the reservoir when changing to a new stick.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

To clarify: It doesn't "gush" out; after squeezing and greasing fifty .30 cal. bullets, I might get a bit of grease the size of a pea or a little bigger. The newer units didn't hardly leak at all, but the alignment problems were and are a fatal flaw, IMHO.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[nighthunter]

OH GEEZ .... now Carpetman is trying to convince us that he can do second grade arithmatic. Even Jethro from the Beverly Hillbillies could do that except for the goesintoos.
Nighthunter

[shooter575]

SPG is a what I would call a soft lube.No heat needed,at any shop temp.My homemade BP lube is harder than SPG and works fine without heat also.You notice that the llube will naturaly get a little bit softer as it warms up during the lubing session.Atoms getting squished around I guess

[montana_charlie]

SPG is a what I would call a soft lube.No heat needed,
I would agree, shooter575, that heat is not needed to make SPG work through a lubrisizer. My intent (in using a heater) is to affect how the lube performs in hot weather shooting.

Steve Garbe (the inventor) says that pushing it through a luber breaks it down somewhat, making it stay softer in cool weather. He recommends pan lubing if the weather is hot, because (then) SPG is less likely to melt prematurely.

Well, I don't want to pan lube, so a heater (if it could be built cheaply) seemed like a good alternative for 'tempering' the lube when summertime gets here.
CM

[Bucks Owin]

You can upgrade the handle and linkage of a 450. Go to Lymans site and look under replacement parts. I updated mine several years ago and its almost like haveing a new sizer. I think the cost was under $30.
Nighthunter

Yep, the handle upgrade is $17.50....

Dennis

[454PB]

One of the things that will cause problems is an ill fitting nose punch. If the nose punch is a little tight, it will bind on the boolit and actually lift it slightly on the up stroke. The result is lube flowing between the boolit and the ejection punch. I always wipe the boolit base on a towel when it's removed from the sizer to insure that there is no lube to contaminate the powder. One of the features of the Star that I appreciate is that once it's properly adjusted, there is no lube on the nose or the base of the boolit.

[Catshooter]

Ya know, 454, that is a damn good point.

I have noticed that some of my loading dies are drilled and I figured out that it was for breaking the vacuum and I had wondered about the same funtion for the lubrisizer top punches.

I think I'll take some steps to remedy that potential. Thanks.


Cat

[Bucks Owin]

I almost bought a 45 just because it looked so old and funky with it's skinny wooden grip and "streamlined" look. Sadly, I think it had probably sized a kazillion boolits as it was mighty loose and I didn't think it would stand an "overhaul" even if parts were available. The one I saw was "Lyman orange" and "bare metal gray" under decades of "boolit lube gunk brown".... :D

Will post a photo of my rebuilt 450 as soon as my daughter finds MY camera! :roll:

Dennis :Fire:

[Bucks Owin]

She found my camera at last.

I modified the linkage pins to take cotter pins and painted RCBS green (Re Conditioned By Self) which looks much better I think than the original grey and gunk two tone....

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a356/BucksOwin/Lyman004.jpg

[6pt-sika]

I have a 45 that I got about 7 years ago , and it is like new. Used it awhile and the 4500 came out . I decided I wanted one with the heater so I bought a 4500 . Now the 4500 is all I use .

[David2011]

Lyman will provide the parts to upgrade the 450 to the 4500 handle and linkage very inexpensively. I recently overhauled my 450 to the point that the main casting is the only old part and the cost was surprisingly low- maybe around $25.

David2011

[TAWILDCATT]

If Your Mix Is Too Hard The Sizer Will Strain I'v Had It That Way And Almost Could Not Size It.what Can't You Size In A Star?

[braccipj]

Looking for advise. I am going to purchase a sizer/lube. Should I get a RCBS or a lyman 4500? I have heard stories about problems with alignment with the Lyman.
Also how do I determing what top punches to get with the different bullets? Any information or advise you could offer this beginner would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[STP]

The alignment issues are not uncommon but with some trial and error, most users will figure out how to deal with it. The first thing to try would be to not tighten the die locknut all the way. Just backing it off so the die centers can help.
Another thing is pulling down on the handle slowly...twice...to get the lube grooves completely filled.
Also, the sizing die may be marked .358, 359, and so forth. But measure the first few bullets after sizing as they tend to not match the stamped number.
Lottsa variables with this hobby, but still enjoyable.

[floodgate]

braccipj:

Top punches for current Lyman bullets are listed in the 2007 "Lyman Annual Products Catalog", available on request from www.lymanproducts.com. For older Lyman / Ideal bullets go to CASTPICS at www.castpics.net, click "research and data" and look at the Lyman / Ideal bullet charts. These punches fit both Lyman and RCBS lube-sizers. For RCBS and other makes of bullet moulds there are lists around, but I don't have them. Or, for a specific bullet, just ask here.

floodgate

[Shiloh]

I see these models frequently offered used and was wondering what the major differences are between them?

For one thing, parts for the 45 are no longer available from Lyman. Got that info from the Lyman folks when ordering parts for the 450.

Shiloh

[Phil]

Lyman doesn't have rams for the 450 either. Nothing like forced obsolescence. Guess thats just one more thing I have to make.

Cheers,

Phil

[mpmarty]

Heater? What heater? My 45 is mounted on an aluminum plate and I put an old steam iron (stolen from wife) on the plate and set it on "cotton". Works great.

[.22-10-45]

I actually prefer the 45 to my 1976 450..with the later..you can see the ram move sidways when lever is operated..of course you can't "horse" the 45. for most sizing I use a reloading press type die & merely lube with either same dia. die or slightly oversized one. For lubing my cast .22's..my favorite is an old Ideal No.1 1892 sizer..this old fellow has less play..perfect top-punch to die mouth alignment..and makes that 84 year younger decendant look like junk!