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View Full Version : .44 mag and H-110 users, I have a question



the_ursus
04-19-2009, 11:10 AM
So I went to the range yesterday with some test loads; 255 swc (263 lubed and checked) H-110, LPM primers, and WW brass. The charges were 19, 20, 21, and 22 grains. Groups were shot @ 30yds and have room for improvement since the best group was roughly 2" with 22 grains. Also, I've never split so many cases before! These are old cases so that may be the problem since I've since read 110 will do that if the cases are not fresh. I did notice that as I went up in charge the splits started going away and my last 6 shots of 22grns didn't split any cases. Maybe I started with too low of a charge and I was getting unusual pressure but the primers looked ok with no flattening. These loads seemed much milder in recoil than I expected so I'm considering working up to 23-24 grns.

runfiverun
04-19-2009, 11:25 AM
go on up, 110 is best at max.
the only time i even use 110/296 is when i want/need max power. it is king there. for the medium levels it's 2400, or a even faster powder[titegroup/clays] for the poofy loads.

Echo
04-19-2009, 11:37 AM
I believe it's not the '110', it's the 'old' that did your cases in. How many times had they been reloaded in the past? How much are they sized down on re-sizing? Brass will work-harden, and split.

chg
04-19-2009, 12:08 PM
I use alot of H110 and have never had problems with cases spliting. It's a great powder, stay at the upper end of the loading data with it and enjoy!

the_ursus
04-19-2009, 01:25 PM
Yes, it sounds like the old cases are likely the cause. They've been fired 6-8 times with light-moderate loads prior to the splitting. I'll continue working up the charge with fresh cases. Thanks!

mrmeanbean74
04-19-2009, 01:30 PM
I use 110 in my 44mag rifle loads.I started with 24 grains witch had a alot of recoil but give tight groups.so i started working down 5ths of a grain at a time until i found a pleasant load and load being 22 grains has less recoil and did not change my groups .

bisley45
04-19-2009, 04:29 PM
I would try new cases and get rid of the mag primers just cause it says mag on the cases dosent mean you have to yous mag primers I shot alot of h110 out of my 45colt bisley and redhawk 21.5gr and none mag primer will keep them at 1 to 1.5" at 50 yards if I do my part but if you need more help contact 44man he nows way more than me

MtGun44
04-19-2009, 04:32 PM
They specifically warn against exactly what you are doing!

The manuals says not to reduce the charges on H110/W296 below the book numbers.
This is due to unpredictable results.

NOW - do I think this has something to do with the split cases? Not certain, but it
doesn't fit the high pressure behavior that I have observed with too hot loads in
a revolver in the past. I find sticky extraction as a reliable - "Back off!" warning.

Never get split cases in my .44s.

Bill

44man
04-19-2009, 05:34 PM
!9 gr with a 255 gr boolit is a little low but only by a gr or so for a starting load. You would be better off at 21.5 to 22 gr and should be able to go to 23 without a problem.
However, I don't think that is the cause of split brass. Old brass will do that and I mean age, not how many times it was shot. I have cases for my .44 that have exceeded 40 reloads and I never lost a single one. I use 296 and it is the same as H110. Powder will not split brass.
What kind of crimp are you using and how tight are you crimping?
Do you have oversize chambers and working the brass too much?
I have to ask what brand of brass too? I use Fed, Hornady, Rem and Starline and I swear you can't wear any out. (Yeah, I still have Fed brass!) I don't like WW brass.
Something strange is going on and I can't put my finger on it. :confused:

waco
04-19-2009, 07:03 PM
i dont need mag primers when using h110 and 296??????

cohutt
04-19-2009, 08:28 PM
I've never had issues with regular primers with 110.

Slow Elk 45/70
04-19-2009, 08:34 PM
IMHO you don't need mag. primers with H-110/296 in the 44 mag. I've been shooting it a long time, I tried mag. primers, they did nothing for the loads and I think the LP primer makes for a more accurate load.

The case splitting is probably caused by over working the case mouth, IMHO
Good Luck.

dougader
04-19-2009, 08:36 PM
I had some split cases that has been used only once. And this was not with hot loads or H110. The only thing I can trace it to is the bad advice I got ~25 years ago to use Brasso in my tumbling media... and Brasso has ammonia in it and ammonia can cause corrosion in brass. My cases were corroded from the inside out and split on firing light loads.

Trey45
04-19-2009, 08:43 PM
Stop using magnum primers and I bet you stop splitting cases. I had problems with a 357magnum, when i stopped using magnum primers, my case problems went away too.

Tom W.
04-19-2009, 09:03 PM
I doubt that the mag primers are a problem. I have some very old brass that I use w/ mag primers and heavy loads of H110 that don't split. I do wonder if your lighter loads aren't detonating.....

454PB
04-19-2009, 09:52 PM
Bad brass. I've been using magnum primers with H-110/WW296 for 35 years and have never had a split case.

After 30 firings, I start getting mouth splits, then I trim them down to 44 Special and start all over.

Ole
04-19-2009, 11:07 PM
I use H110 exclusively in my full power .44 loads and have never had a split case in well over 3,000 reloads.

MtGun44
04-19-2009, 11:12 PM
Make 10 loads with reg primers and 10 with mag primers.
Chrono both.
See if you get better consistency of velocity with the mag primers.
Shoot at least 5 10 shot groups with each type before making any conclusions
about accuracy difference. Is one more accurate?
If yes, use mag primers (recommended by the powder makers), if no, forget it.

Key concepts:

1 - absent solid scientific data, follow the info provided by the powder companies.
Their goal is for you to have safe and accurate ammo.

2 - each gun is a thing unto itself. If careful testing shows that some "standard method"
does not work as expected in YOUR gun, then do what DOES work properly in your gun.

3 - The targets and chrono will tell the story.

Bill

44man
04-19-2009, 11:57 PM
Mag primers triple my group size with 296!

Dale53
04-20-2009, 01:00 AM
I have shot tens of thousands of .44 magnum loads in several revolvers. My practice load (I only load "full" loads in my .44 magnums as I have .44 Special revolvers for light and medium loads), to repeat, my practice load is Federal 150 primer, 23.0 grs of H110, Keith .430" (Lyman 429421 or H&G #503) medium roll crimp in crimp groove. My hunting load is 24.0 grs of H110 and every thing else the same. My bullet alloy for this is WW's/linotype 5/1-8/1.

Both loads will penetrate a large whitetail deer 200-250 lbs end for end (or any other way) regardless of bones hit. Shot through the lungs, a deer will travel a bit but leaves a large blood trail that is easy to walk up on. No meat loss but the deer will generally go 30-100 yards. If you need to drop them "right now" due to the presence of other hunters, then a shot through the shoulders will ground them nicely but WILL damage more meat.

I have had good luck with neck shots at reasonable ranges (35 yards or so). My range limit is 125 yards - NOTHING FURTHER. Most have been dropped from 10-85 yards. Other than my first deer, these have all been one shot kills.

Dale53

Lloyd Smale
04-20-2009, 07:22 AM
its probably a combination of brass that has been worked to much by to many loadings or to much crimp and the fact that ww brass is junk. I think you didnt get it with the higher loads because you were lucky enough to pick a bit fresher brass for them without knowing it. Primers will not cause the problem. You might get away with std primers with 110 but if you look at the loading manuals they all recomend mag and theres a reason. 110 is hard to ignite and especially hard when your downloading. Its a accident waiting to happen. Use mag primers with it. If you run even full power loads over a chrono youll see much better extream spreads with mag primers. Anymore when im loading 110/296 or aa9/wc820 i use nothing but cci 350s My chrono has shown that those powders work best with them. One reason you may not be gettting spectacular accuracy is your tired brass isnt going to give good neck tension and 110 needs a good crimp and good neck tension to burn properly. I think its time for you to toss that batch of brass and buy some new starline.

Shuz
04-20-2009, 10:59 AM
Neck splits usually come from brass cases that are either "overbelled" and/or "over crimped". I have several lots of .44 mag brass that have been loaded over 20 times without neck splits. In my opinion, primers have absolutely nothing to do with neck splits!
I use CCI 350 mag primers with H-110/WW296 and WC 820, because these are ball powders that the manufacturers claim are harder to ignite. Never had a problem with ignition, even in cold weather. I use Rem 2-1/2 LP or CCI 300 LP primers for 2400, Green Dot, & Unique. A rather rudimentary primer test that I did about 12 years ago at the suggestion of Felix, showed that standard primers worked better than mag primers with non ball powders.

the_ursus
04-20-2009, 11:57 AM
Thanks for the input guys. I've only been using mag primers with 110 since I HEARD it ignited better. I didn't have any data for cast loads and h110 so I used an old Hornady manuel which suggested at starting load of 19 grains for their 265gr jacketed bullets and I figured since my bullets are 263 once lubed and checked it would be a good place to start. I'm not sure how heavy of a crimp I'm using since I don't have anyone else's ammo to compare it to. I do know that the cases I'm using are old but I'll hang on to them for my plinkers since they seem to do fine for that.

Well, I'll see if I can come up with some new brass.

Slinger
04-20-2009, 02:45 PM
I would try new cases and get rid of the mag primers just cause it says mag on the cases dosent mean you have to yous mag primers I shot alot of h110 out of my 45colt bisley and redhawk 21.5gr and none mag primer will keep them at 1 to 1.5" at 50 yards if I do my part but if you need more help contact 44man he nows way more than me

If you don't use Mag. Primers with Ball Powders, you get way too much unburned powder. IF your using WINCHESTER Large Pistol Primers, you'll notice that they are for both standard & Magnum loads.

Slinger
04-20-2009, 03:08 PM
Bad brass. I've been using magnum primers with H-110/WW296 for 35 years and have never had a split case.

After 30 firings, I start getting mouth splits, then I trim them down to 44 Special and start all over.

Glad to see somebody agrees with me. As with you, 454PB, I've been reloading a long time, like 43 years. Where these guys come up with some of these opinions is beyond me. Ball Powder is harder to ignite, because in part it is spherical. Why do these guys think the Powder Companies recommend using MAGNUM PRIMERS for more reliable ignition with Ball Powders, if it weren't necessary? Amazing.........
The standard primer is fine for flake powders. A reduced charge too far below the starting load of a ball powder will indeed cause problems. Mag. primers do not cause cases to split. Work hardened brass does or an overload. Alot of these guys need to go back and re-read the basics of handloading, reduced charges, primers, etc. before somebody gets hurt badly. Misconceptions in handloading can cost you big time.Sorry for the rant, but I don't like seeing conclusions being drawn that are not sound & true. They have a way of becoming set in stone like old wives tales. I see there are several fellas' responses that give true & accurate advice. Take it, remember it, and pass it on. Learn to sort out the BS from the truth.

BCB
04-20-2009, 03:52 PM
I shoot the Lyman 429650 (315 grains) using 20.0 grains of H-110 and a CCI-350 MAGNUM PRIMER. I too don’t understand not using the magnum primers—Oh well…

I am shooting Starline and Remington brass and some have been reloaded at least a fifteen times and I think I lost track of a time or two when I used just a few pieces of brass for testing other loads. As previously mentioned, it is most likely too much crimp or more than likely, too much bell each time. Once the split starts, it spreads like wildfire!!!

Good-luck…BCB

Slinger
04-20-2009, 08:05 PM
I've had .357 brass that's been overworked split in the middle of the case body. It didn't start at the case mouth and work down. Have had .38 Special brass do it as well. When the case becomes brittle enough it lets go.........Luckily, the chamber walls are strong enough to contain it.

MtGun44
04-20-2009, 08:09 PM
44man has shown experimentally that for his boolits and gun, not only are
mag primers not necessary, they are harmful to accy. Good to know, but
in my experience each gun is a thing unto itself, so it will need to be verified
with your gun and load.

My apologies if you were using published loads. My memory was that the
min load recommended was around 22 and they say not to go lower than
published minimums, and being a bit conservative, I have never even tried it.

It is a good point that someone made that Win primers are rated for both
mag and std pistol loads.

Bill

44man
04-20-2009, 09:06 PM
Yep, started using Fed 150 primers with 296 sometime in the late 70's. Every time I make or buy different boolits/bullets I start at minimum and work to max looking for the tightest groups.
My SBH just passed 59,150 rounds from the primer count I wrote down for it, all without a hiccup of any kind. This primer has been used in 5 or 6 S&W 29's and at least 7 Rugers, all with superior accuracy. All my friends will use nothing else either.
My .45 Vaquero with 296 thrives on the 150 also.
I suppose if you have a short barrel like a 4", you might want a mag primer but I can't answer that.
I have proven to myself that the pressure from a mag primer can move a boolit before a stable burn occurs in the relatively small .44 and .45 brass. Each boolit can move a different amount. I don't like a different case capacity for each shot.
WW primers are OK and work pretty good.
Every gun I have or had was tested for each bullet with both primers, 150 or 155 and in every instance, the mag primer lost out.
Testing in larger calibers like the .454 with large pockets, .475 and 45-70, the LP mag primer wins. And yes, a load of 296 in the .475 lights off very well with the 150 primer but it is not as accurate.
If I was loading the .454 with large rifle primers I would not use magnums.
The only problem I ever had with 296 was with a starting load in the .454 with the anemic SR and SR mag primers. The same loads in cut down .460 brass using a Fed 155 showed good ignition and even velocities and loads were easy to work without fear of a stuck boolit.
Put a lot of fire on the powder but keep the primer pressure low in the .44. I suppose there are mag primers that will meet those conditions. I don't test all brands because I like what I use.
If I ran out of primers I would only go to the WW.

warf73
04-21-2009, 03:44 AM
This was posted a few years back on another forum when a group of us made our 44mag H&R rifles into 445SM rifles.


I made it out to the range but forgot the bench so all accuracy testing was done off hand with factory iron sights.
All chrony FPS were at 10’ from muzzle.

Loads used:

44 Remington Mag.
Brass - Winchester
Primer - CCI Large Mag Pistol Primer
Powder - 2400 @ 17.0grs.
Bullet - Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity – Average 1475 F.P.S.
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.600"
5 Shot Group – Average 1.685"

445Super Magnum
Brass - Starline
Primer - CCI Large Mag Pistol Primer
Powder – Win. 296 @ 29gr.
Bullet – Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity - Average 1975 F.P.S.
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.935"
5 Shot Group – Average 1.200"

445Super Magnum
Brass - Starline
Primer – Win. Larger Rifle Primer
Powder – Win. 296 @ 29gr.
Bullet – Hornady 300gr. XTP
Velocity - Average 1965 F.P.S. (but with very large extreme spread)
Max C.O.L - Over all length 1.935"
5 Shot Group – Average 5 + "

All shots were at 55 yards with the factory Iron sights in an H&R.

I’m very happy with my first results using the CCI primer. I’ll do more work after I get the scope mounted on it.

A very promising start.

Warf


Something I did do later was use stander pistol primers with the same results as the large rifle primers, with groups exceeding 4" and the FPS extream spead was still way larger than with mag primers.

As stated many times each firearm is to its own. Mine didn't like none mag primers.

Warf

Lloyd Smale
04-21-2009, 05:57 AM
Ive loaded thousands of rounds with 110 using mag and std. Primers. Id say in the summer when its warm a std primer will light off 110 if its a good high pressure load. If you use a starting load or if its cold they fall flat on there face. When i load i dont load 50 rounds and go and shoot them. I load 500 rounds so i can shoot for a while. So some of the ammo i loaded in the summer may make it to winter and even to the hunting field in the winter so i dont fool with non magnum primers with ball powders anymore. Same thing goes for bullets that dont fly at long range. If i load 500 round of 45 colt it may be used for rolling beer cans, hunting bear or busting rocks at 500 yards. I want it to be ready to do any of those jobs. Ill gladly live with a load that shoots 3 inch a 50 yards instead of one or two if the bullet stays stable out to long range and the primer lights off the charge relialbly in ANY condition. Personly i see no use in getting so anal with a handgun that i need it to shoot one inch 100 yard groups. A gun that shoots 5-6 inch groups at a hundred yards will take care of any big game hunting on earth. reliability should be the first consern with any hunter and accuracy second.

44man
04-21-2009, 08:53 AM
I ran the .44 with the 150 primer all through Ohio winters with no problems. Where I live now it doesn't get as cold.
I have always said that if you shoot under extreme weather conditions then the mag primer would be a better choice, no argument from me!
If you want to use a mag primer all the time, no argument from me either. I just like accuracy.
I shoot my guns to 500 meters and the stability has nothing to do with the primer, only a match to the twist combined with the correct velocity.
My .44 SD is only 11.5, ES 26 to 29 fps and MAD is 9.5 to 9.9 fps with the 150 primer. Average velocity is 1316.5 fps with a 320 gr WLN. That's about as good as a revolver can get.

Warf, the .445 SM needs the LP mag. But you have seen what going to a LR primer will do. Too much primer pressure. I got those same results in the 45-70 revolver and only the LP mag primer works.

mag44uk
04-21-2009, 09:00 AM
In Ye Olde Fashioned days here in the UK when we had those dangerous handguns I had a Dan Wesson 357 8 inch job. Got excited when I discovered H110 as I wanted to shoot at long range.
Loaded a few up with standard CCI small pistol,went to the range,first shot no kaboom but plenty of unburnt powder in action and bullet stuck up barrel!
Changed to small mag primers job was a good un!
Still using 296 in 44 mag in the Marlin and use Winchester LP as it says these are OK to use for this powder.
Tony

44man
04-21-2009, 09:25 AM
In Ye Olde Fashioned days here in the UK when we had those dangerous handguns I had a Dan Wesson 357 8 inch job. Got excited when I discovered H110 as I wanted to shoot at long range.
Loaded a few up with standard CCI small pistol,went to the range,first shot no kaboom but plenty of unburnt powder in action and bullet stuck up barrel!
Changed to small mag primers job was a good un!
Still using 296 in 44 mag in the Marlin and use Winchester LP as it says these are OK to use for this powder.
Tony
True, the SP primer just has no fire, I use nothing but mag primers in the .357.
That is the same problem the .454 has with a SR primer. I even had that happen with a SR mag primer in the .454. Lots of sudden pressure with not enough fire. Strange how far up the barrel primer pressure will drive a boolit. This caliber must use a max load of H110 or 296 with the SR primer as it runs out of fire if the powder is shifted forward out of reach.
The WW primer is a good choice, decent heat and less pressure then a full mag primer.