RCBS Sizing Problem

[TDC]

I'm having trouble with my RCBS sizer.

When I install gas checks the die is removing small slivers of check material that is getting caught in the lube holes. After I seat about 4 or 5 checks the copper sliver buildup is apparently so bad I can barely remove the sized boolit from the die. When I do attempt to remove the boolit from the die a small portion of the check shoulder gets ripped off the check with an obvious gouge showing on the lead boolit also. I've cleaned and inspected the die several times and can't see anything like a burr on the die that could cause this problem, but I do find the copper slivers.

The boolits I'm sizing are Lyman 410610s. The checks I'm using are supposed to be Lyman. The top punch is the proper one for the boolit. The boolits themselves are water dropped WWs and are consistant in form and weight. I have had to use a round head bolt to open the checks slightly so they would fit over the boolit base without crushing. That does create a slightly inconsistent GC opening but the check seats on the down stroke not the upstroke of the sizer arm. The damaging occurs on the upstroke I believe...

Any suggestions would be appreciated...

Thank!

TC

[MGySgt]

FWIW -

Sounds like a burr and or wrong size check. Take 400 grit paper on a split dowl to polish the inside of the die. Doesn't take long to 'polish' it. I do that on all my sizer dies except for the ones I buy from Buckshot.

Some one here should be able to measure a correct size check and post the size so you could compare it against yours.

Drew

[oneokie]

Anneal your checks.

[mikenbarb]

+1 for polishing them.
Did you mic the bullets before sizing? They may be too large if you had to open your GC's up to fit them on the base. And if their real hard it will give you a problem with an undersized die.
Just a thought.

[largom]

Hopefully you DO NOT have the set screw tightened on the top punch. Is this the only sizer die that is giving you a problem? Sounds like a bad burr or off-center sizer/top punch.
Larry

[TDC]

Anneal your checks.

I'll try that and the polishing too. What temperature do you recommend I anneal the GCs at.

FYI, these checks are kind of a brassy orange color rather than the dark orange copper color I'm used to. I was told they are Lyman but they seem undersized so I'm having my doubts.. Any special procedure for the annealing process other than to heat them to a temperature I hope you'll recommend - then let them air cool?

Thanks!!

TC

[Sprue]

I heat em w/propane torch till they turn red and let them air cool.

Here's more:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20271

[oneokie]

I'll try that and the polishing too. What temperature do you recommend I anneal the GCs at.

FYI, these checks are kind of a brassy orange color rather than the dark orange copper color I'm used to. I was told they are Lyman but they seem undersized so I'm having my doubts.. Any special procedure for the annealing process other than to heat them to a temperature I hope you'll recommend - then let them air cool?

Thanks!!

TC

Dump them on top of the melt in your casting pot. Wait until they change colors, stir them so they all make contact with the melt. Dip them out and let air cool.

[StarMetal]

You shouldn't have to anneal your gas checks to size a bullet without damage. Wouldn't you think if whatever is snagging the check when it's hard would snag it and chew it up easier when it's dead soft? While on anneals gas checks I see no advantage of doing it and think they weren't annealed at the factory for a reason. They are designed to do their job as they come.

I'd pull the die out, clean the lube out of it with mineral spirits, wipe it out well and then hold it up to a light and see if you see anything. A call to RCBS will get you a new one asap.

You are correct in that the check sizes on the bullet on the down stroke of the press. The checks aren't that tough and should swage onto the bullet shank with no problems and they will move some of the bullet alloy doing so. Lots of us have swaged on gas check on flat base non check style bullets to make you feel better about it.

Analyze the problems thoroughly before making/doing a solution.

Joe

[TDC]

Hopefully you DO NOT have the set screw tightened on the top punch. Is this the only sizer die that is giving you a problem? Sounds like a bad burr or off-center sizer/top punch.
Larry

I DO have the set screw tightened all the way. I was never aware that could be a problem. I cast for .50, 44, 45 (ACP and LC) 38/357 and 41, and have always had the proper top punches tight .... never had a problem before but I'll check that out too.

I use the same .410 sizer die with a Lee .41 195 SWC and an RCBS .41 220 SWC KT and have never had a problem, but they obviously don't use gas checks.. I have a Lee 158 SWCGC mold as well as a Lee .44 240 SWCGC mold and neither give the slightest problem when seating checks with the same sizer.

I'm going to double check my top punch and do all the things recommended here. I'm doin' something wrong.... I'm going to hold off on the annealing until I've checked every other possibility suggested... I wish I had some other .41 gas checks to see if the ones I have are part of the problem.

Thanks!

TC

[StarMetal]

All the set screw does, and that's if the machining tolerances are sloppy, is not center your bullet in the die. Once that bullet has been sized, and if it was off center, doesn't have anything to do with what you are describing. Many of us put a little lube on the top side of the flange on the nose punch and let that hole it into the ram. I back my set screw out, but not so far that it snags on the cast housing.

Joe

[TDC]

All the set screw does, and that's if the machining tolerances are sloppy, is not center your bullet in the die. Once that bullet has been sized, and if it was off center, doesn't have anything to do with what you are describing. Many of us put a little lube on the top side of the flange on the nose punch and let that hole it into the ram. I back my set screw out, but not so far that it snags on the cast housing.

Joe

Thanks Joe.... and everyone contributing to this thread.

I've got tomorrow planned to try to resolve this mystery. When I do find the solution I'll report back on this thread. :drinks:

TC

[Calamity Jake]

If you are using an RCBS size die there is an groove in the die at the same location as the lube holes. What is happening is the gas check is springing back a little and the lip is catching on the top edge of this groove on the up stroke, annealing the checks will stop most of the spring back and help the problem.
You may have to send the die back to RCBS for replacment if you can't find a way to round over the groove edge.
There is a sticky on anealing GC's, do a search for it.

[HeavyMetal]

I thought about your problem last night.

Clamity Jake has also hit what I think is your problem. Having never used RCBS dies or the sizer I was reluctant to suggest something.

My thought is you die may be worn a little? I have had a few lyman dies go from 451 to 453 after having a fair amount of high Antimony boolits ( wheel weight) put through.

While this was only a problem that got noticed when I started having feeding issues had I been loading a check type boolit I may have seen an issue sooner.

I think the die may not be squeezing the check completely around the bolit shank, and when you reverse direction to pull the boolit back out of the die it's forced against the "wall" of the die and is "shearing" Calamity Jake's pointing out the groove at the lube holes only reinforces that idea.

To see if this is happening I will suggest that you pull the "pin" on the sizing die and push a few boolits straight through. If the bottom of the die is still in speck it should crimp the checks on completely. Reinstall the pin and size a few more if the problem returns start "miking" the two differently sized boolits and find out if the are indeed the same diameter.

A die specifically for the checked boolits, without the internal groove, may be your cure.

[StarMetal]

I suggested pulling the die, cleaning it, and having a look see. Because of different alloys a die is seldom going to size what it's label because of the differences in spring back. I'd call RCBS they are great folks to work with. Solving the problem by altering something else is not a solution to a problem that shouldn't be there in first place. Annealing gas checks, I feel, is a myth.

Joe

[TDC]

I thought about your problem last night.

Clamity Jake has also hit what I think is your problem. Having never used RCBS dies or the sizer I was reluctant to suggest something.

My thought is you die may be worn a little? I have had a few lyman dies go from 451 to 453 after having a fair amount of high Antimony boolits ( wheel weight) put through.

While this was only a problem that got noticed when I started having feeding issues had I been loading a check type boolit I may have seen an issue sooner.

I think the die may not be squeezing the check completely around the bolit shank, and when you reverse direction to pull the boolit back out of the die it's forced against the "wall" of the die and is "shearing" Calamity Jake's pointing out the groove at the lube holes only reinforces that idea.

To see if this is happening I will suggest that you pull the "pin" on the sizing die and push a few boolits straight through. If the bottom of the die is still in speck it should crimp the checks on completely. Reinstall the pin and size a few more if the problem returns start "miking" the two differently sized boolits and find out if the are indeed the same diameter.

A die specifically for the checked boolits, without the internal groove, may be your cure.

This .410 die has had about 12 to 15k boolits through it that were created from WWs without gas checks. The accumulation of sheared filings occurs right at the grove you guys describe. I've had this die for about 30 years and I'm thinking it may have a flaw that is just now showing up when using gas checks.

Before I do anything I'm going to contact RCBS to see if they would suggest any other option. It's possible they may want to view this die before I clean it again or mess with it in any way. I'll be checking.....

[MGySgt]

Water Dropped WW = HARD. I still say you just need to polish it. Soft bullets (not water dropped WW) will just scratch a little bit.Heat Treating. If I didn't size them with in 24 hours there was a big difference in the force required to size them over non water dropped. I polished out that die and most of the extra force required went away. I could not tell a size difference in the sized boolets before polishing and after.

Just my 2 cents worth and what has worked for a lot of years.

Fact from Veral Smiths book on cast bullets - he reccomends polishing all sizer dies from RCBS and Lyman.

Drew