Blue Dot; Hercules vs Alliant test

[Larry Gibson]

All

As promissed I finally had some decent weather and conducted the test. It is lengthy and will require several posts to put it all together.

Hercules Blue Dot VS Alliant Blue Dot; .44 Magnum



Date: 15 April, 2009
Location: Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Range, University Place, Washington
Time: 1300 – 1600
Temperature: 43 – 50 degrees F.
Atmospheric pressure: 29.92
Wind: 2-5 mph from 0530
Test instrument: Oehler M43 Personal Ballistics Laboratory
Test Cartridge: .44 Magnum
Test Case: WW Winchester
Test primer: Federal 150 Large Pistol
Test Powders:
Hercules Blue Dot lot #BD152 purchased 10-15+ years ago as the price was $11.89
Alliant Blue Dot lot #289 shift 2, Feb 22, 2008 with a price of $20.89
Powder charge weights: 14.5 to 18.4 gr in .5 grain increments with all charges weighed on a Redding
powder scale
Test Bullet: RCBS 44-250-K cast of 60-40 WW (new) – linotype alloy, weight 252 gr, sized .430 in
Lyman 450 and lubed with Javelina
Load OAL: 1.705”
Crimp: Case mouth crimped completely under edge of forward driving band
Loading dies used: RCBS with carbide sizer
Shots in test string; 5
Test sequence: a test string was fired with the Hercules powder then the subsequent test string was of the same charge weight of Alliant powder. Thus test strings were concurrent from 14.5 gr up through the 18.4 gr powder charge weight

Results:
The M43 PBL provides much information that would result in an overly long report. Pertinent to the question of the difference between the older Hercules Blue Dot and the new Alliant Blue Dot is the comparison of velocity and pressure per a equal charge weight of each powder. Thus I shall report the muzzle velocity (corrected to muzzle by the M43) and the pressure (rounded to nearest 100 psi so 20,500 psi will read 20,5) for each powder charge weight of both Hercules and Alliant Blue Dots. The format will read the powder charge with the initial H or A in front, the muzzle velocity and the pressure in psi(M43).

[Larry Gibson]

Page 2

H14.5/1330/24,3
A14.5/1310/25,2
H15/1368/26,3
A15/1340/27,4
H15.5/1412/28,5
A15.5/1380/28,3
H16/1447/30,4
A16/1438/31,6
H16.5/1493/32,6
A16.5/1464/31,4
H17/1521/32,4
A17/1498/32,8
H17.5/1541/31,4*
A17.5/1527/31,4*
H18/1565/29,1*
A18/1569/24,4*
H18.4/1589/20,5*
A18.41583/23,0*

* Note; these pressures are not misprints.

Discussion/conclusion; the tests proved interesting to say the least. I did not find any incident or indication of “pressure spikes”. To the contrary I found that as the load (17.5 gr and above) exceeded 100% loading density and be came compressed the pressure curve became longer with less pressure. As the powder charge increased and compression of the powder charge became greater the bottom literally fell out pressure wise. The velocity increase per increased powder charge also began to lesson. I discussed this at length with Dr, Oehler. While he modestly says he is not a ballistician (he is a gentleman of the old school) he thinks that ignition is a problem with the compressed loads. A magnum primer may or may not improve ignition and would have to be tested.

Quite frankly I find the 17 gr load of either the Hercules or the Alliant Blue Dot powder to be a good practical maximum with this bullet. Looking at the graph of PSI vs Powder charge we see that 17 gr is the peak with both powders. However when we look at the graph of FPS vs Powder charge it is difficult to make that distinction when comparing them to each other. The old Hercules Blue Dot loading data per Lyman was 15 to 18.4 gr with the 429421 cast bullet. The new Alliant Blue Dot data as per the “New Edition” 48th Lyman manual is 14.5 to 16 gr with that same 429421 cast bullet. Interesting to note is that with 429244 they listed 14 to 17.4 gr of Alliant Blue Dot. The Lyman pressures are lited in CUPs which aren’t directly convertible to psi so I won’t go there.

Keep in mind also the TC Contender hasn’t the long throat or the barrel/cylinder gap of revolvers. Thus the pressures in revolvers would no doubt be a little less per given powder charge. I will work up the same loads with Alliant Blue Dot from 14.5 to 17.5 gr in the ½ gr increments. I will then test these in my Ruger BH 50th Anniversary with 6 ½” barrel. Of course I do not have a strain gauge on the Ruger so I will be depending on the chronographed results to give indications of a good load, a bad load or “pressure spiking’.

[Larry Gibson]

Page 3

I’ve graphed out comparing the FPS gain per charge weight and the psi gain per charge weight.

Looking at both graphs it is apparent that with this test both the Hercules and Alliant Blue Dots are within normal lot to lot variation of each other. Basically, based on this test with a normal weight range cast bullet, there is no apparent difference between them either in burning rate or burning characteristics. Further testing with light weight jacketed bullets is in order but with the current situation I’ve not been able to find either 180 or 200 gr .44 jacketed bullets. Further testing in other cartridges such as the .357 and .41 magnums is in order also.

[Larry Gibson]

Page 4

The photo of the fired cases is as they were fired in order. The green box contained the Hercules loads and the red box the Alliant loads. There was no indication of cartridges stick as all were easily extracted from the chamber of the Contender barrel with fingers. There is no appreciable indication of pressure by the look of the primers.

I shall continue to use Alliant Blue Dot as I find it to be a very fine powder for certain applications as id found the old Hercules Blue Dot to be. When using Alliant Blue Dot in a cartridge for which I only have older Hercules Blue Dot loads I will carefully work up loads again. I suggest anyone taking this data to do so with caution and work up your own loads as per instructions in all loading manuals.

Larry Gibson

[Maven]

Larry, Great report! One question about the pressure curves, though. Why is the Hercules BD curve smoother than the Alliant BD curve?

[Trey45]

Yet another reason I love this forum so much, where else would you find the amount of real working knowledge that you can find here! Larry, outstanding article, well written and succinct.

[felix]

Hot, diggity, dog! Way to go Larry! The mag primer should push out the boolit giving more ignition room. Maven discovered this, and I have verified it, several years ago. If you going to compress, use some poly balls for some buffer so that no powder gets actually compressed. See if the chrono can pick up this difference as well. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, Great report! One question about the pressure curves, though. Why is the Hercules BD curve smoother than the Alliant BD curve?

The Hercules Blue Dot seemed to give more consistant ignition as the SD/ES were smaller for the most part through out the range of loads. This is but one test and many times one particuler load will show an anomoly that scews a single line graph. Best would be to shoot perhaps 3 series of the same test and then "average" the results. One usnually will see a "smoother" graph line on those. Even though the Alliant looks more crooked than the hercules line both are within lot to lot variations. I.E. 3 lots of Alliant test loads may well overlap the Herculles graph line. On the other hand they could all be to one side of the Hercules line. However when you compare the FPS graph to the PSI graph it appears the Alliant is slower burning on one and faster burning on the other. That's why it is important to look at data from various perspectives. Graphing them out is "visual" and usually a help. Also that the lines flip flop on the two graphs indicates to me the two powders are within "lot to lot" variation.

Larry Gibson

[Rocky Raab]

Fascinating, Larry. Not what I expected to see, but data is data.

I agree that the compressed powder effect is probably an ignition issue, and I also agree that compression ought to signal the effective maximum charge, as there is no telling what might happen if one bullet released early, or crept forward under recoil. Pressures might then go north in a hurry!

[Willbird]

I have heard of pressure excursions in cold weather with BD, it would be interesting to put a few rounds on dry ice and then pressure test them.

Wondering if powder compression causes the powder to burn more like a cigarette ?

Does your test instrument give you a pressure time curve ?? And if it does do the lower pressures with the larger charge show a different curve ?

The only center fire straight walled TC barrels I have experience with are 357 maximum, and both barrels I have owned had a very long shallow taper type throat.

I remember reading a test by Clark the overloader where he crammed more and more Lilgun in a 357 magnum, and got more and more recoil, but as he later found out, no pressure increase, and no velocity increase, the recoil increase was from the added weight of the powder, which to a degree counts as a projectile in recoil calculations.

The early 454 casull ammo used a trinary charge of 3 different powders, that was so heavily compressed that some of the powders were smashed into little cakes.

Also kudos for the data, and do not take this the wrong way, but 5 rounds is not nearly enough to calculate SD that is meaningful in any way.

Bill

[Boondocker]

I am certainly impressed, I have a lot to learn and I sure dont want to shoot my chronograph. Great report Larry and I was always just happy to get a bang. :drinks: Boon

[454PB]

Thanks for all your effort and the report.

For years I've used and recommended Bluedot for use in many cartridges, and someone always brings up the "peaky" and "low temperature excursions". I have never experienced either of these problems. I've also used heavier charges of Bluedot for a given boolit weight in .44 magnum and didn't quote it in the name of internet safety. Your results use loads as heavy as I have for the last 20 years with comparable velocities and complete safety.

I probably have enough of the old Hercules Bluedot stored to last me as long as I live, but it's good to see that the Alliant Bluedot can be substituted if I run low.

[beagle]

I've experienced this at temps down in the teens. A real live test would either verify my suspicions or do away with them.

Wonder if Hercules/Alliant or wahtever they call themselves have this data for release?

Anybody know?/beagle


I have heard of pressure excursions in cold weather with BD, it would be interesting to put a few rounds on dry ice and then pressure test them.

Wondering if powder compression causes the powder to burn more like a cigarette ?

Does your test instrument give you a pressure time curve ?? And if it does do the lower pressures with the larger charge show a different curve ?

The only center fire straight walled TC barrels I have experience with are 357 maximum, and both barrels I have owned had a very long shallow taper type throat.

I remember reading a test by Clark the overloader where he crammed more and more Lilgun in a 357 magnum, and got more and more recoil, but as he later found out, no pressure increase, and no velocity increase, the recoil increase was from the added weight of the powder, which to a degree counts as a projectile in recoil calculations.

The early 454 casull ammo used a trinary charge of 3 different powders, that was so heavily compressed that some of the powders were smashed into little cakes.

Also kudos for the data, and do not take this the wrong way, but 5 rounds is not nearly enough to calculate SD that is meaningful in any way.

Bill

[beagle]

Larry, BTW, good tests. Thanks for sharing it with us./beagle

[Larry Gibson]

Willbird

I have heard of pressure excursions in cold weather with BD, it would be interesting to put a few rounds on dry ice and then pressure test them.

Wondering if powder compression causes the powder to burn more like a cigarette ?

Probably something like that. Seems with the straight walled cases a "wad" of powder could easily be pushed down the bore.

Does your test instrument give you a pressure time curve ?? And if it does do the lower pressures with the larger charge show a different curve ?

Yes the Oehler m43 does show the time pressure curve. I also lists the area and time under the pressure curve. The "curves" of the heavier charges where pressure was lower are very interesting indeed!

The only center fire straight walled TC barrels I have experience with are 357 maximum, and both barrels I have owned had a very long shallow taper type throat.

I remember reading a test by Clark the overloader where he crammed more and more Lilgun in a 357 magnum, and got more and more recoil, but as he later found out, no pressure increase, and no velocity increase, the recoil increase was from the added weight of the powder, which to a degree counts as a projectile in recoil calculations.

sounds reasonable based on my tests.

The early 454 casull ammo used a trinary charge of 3 different powders, that was so heavily compressed that some of the powders were smashed into little cakes.

Also kudos for the data, and do not take this the wrong way, but 5 rounds is not nearly enough to calculate SD that is meaningful in any way.

I have many times mentioned that a 5 round test is only and "indication" of SD. However many worship SD to the exclusion of SD which is ass backwards to my way of thinking. I believe the SD needs to be within a certain percentage parameter of the ES to me meaningfull of a good load. You are right, 5 rounds does not really cut it as far as SD is concerned.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Fascinating, Larry. Not what I expected to see, but data is data.

I agree that the compressed powder effect is probably an ignition issue, and I also agree that compression ought to signal the effective maximum charge, as there is no telling what might happen if one bullet released early, or crept forward under recoil. Pressures might then go north in a hurry!

In the case of straight walled cases I concur.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

454PB

......I probably have enough of the old Hercules Bluedot stored to last me as long as I live, .........you lucky dog:-)

Larry Gibson

[Slowpoke]

Real nice Larry, Thanks

good luck

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Thanks for sharing , and your time, effort, powder, primers boolits etc. , great Post.

[fourarmed]

Very interesting, Larry. Now I wonder why the warnings came out. The two powders appear to give results about as identical as any variables subject to random error can be. Especially considering n=5. Presumably their .357/125 and .41 mag tests did not give results as uniform as yours.

[Shuz]

Very impressive work, Larry! Thanks for sharing!

[leadman]

Thanks for doing the testing Larry. When I spoke with the ballastic lab manager at Alliant he indicated there was no issue with cast bullets in the 357, only the 125grain jacketed. Although the warning included all 41 magnum loads he was more concerned with jacketed bullet loads. He warned against the use of a magnum primer.
I'm using BD with 220gr cast in my SBH Hunter with WLP, which he said are actually magnums. I'm going to try different primers in an effort to clean up the load as it is very dirty. I already apply a heavy crimp so will probably leave that alone.

Did you notice any difference in how much residue was left between the Alliant and Hercules?

Do you have a T/C barrel in 357?

[leadeye]

Great test and results Larry, and thanks! I have two questions, the first is did you ever get any of the old Herculese 2400? The second is about primers. Has anybody ever checked how hard a primer pushes a bullet by itself, maybe by filling a case with inert material instead of powder and firing? :-D

[leftiye]

Excellent workup Larry. Very timely, and useful.

[theperfessor]

Larry -

Your usual well-thought-out work illuminates this site once again! Thanks for sharing.

[fecmech]

The second is about primers. Has anybody ever checked how hard a primer pushes a bullet by itself, maybe by filling a case with inert material instead of powder and firing? :-D
Over the years I have had at least 1 each no powder screw up ( that I'll admit to) on progressive reloaders in both the .45 and .38 special. In the .45 the slug was into the rifling far enough to chamber another round and the .38 the base of the bullet was just past the forcing cone and into the rifling.
When I read of reloaders saying that increasing the crimp cleans up a dirty load or helps the powder burn I shake my head. The primer blows the bullet out of the case by itself, the crimps only purpose I believe is to hold bullets from walking out of the case on a revolver or into the case on an auto.

[Willbird]

Over the years I have had at least 1 each no powder screw up ( that I'll admit to) on progressive reloaders in both the .45 and .38 special. In the .45 the slug was into the rifling far enough to chamber another round and the .38 the base of the bullet was just past the forcing cone and into the rifling.
When I read of reloaders saying that increasing the crimp cleans up a dirty load or helps the powder burn I shake my head. The primer blows the bullet out of the case by itself, the crimps only purpose I believe is to hold bullets from walking out of the case on a revolver or into the case on an auto.

Well just because the primer has enough energy to do that, does not mean that the bullet ends up there before the powder lights off. IE the chamber pressure when there IS powder could be quite high before the bullet even moves at all.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

leadman

Did you notice any difference in how much residue was left between the Alliant and Hercules?

I could not see any discernable difference in residue between the two. I visually inspected each case after firing as that's one "benifit" of a single shot...getting to pluck the cases out one at a time.

Do you have a T/C barrel in 357?

I used to have one but traded it off some time back. I have been looking for another one reasonably priced.

Thanks for the comments.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

leadeye

Great test and results Larry, and thanks! I have two questions, the first is did you ever get any of the old Herculese 2400?

I'm working a deal with Shuz hopefully. I paln on a similar test with Hercules 2400 vs Alliant 2400 if the deal goes through.

The second is about primers. Has anybody ever checked how hard a primer pushes a bullet by itself, maybe by filling a case with inert material instead of powder and firing?

I'll assume someone has made that kind of a test but I've no reference to one. Perhaps someone else does?

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

Very interesting indeed, when I first started loading, I found the max of Blue Dot with a Lee 325gr boolit in a Ruger Bisley 45 Colt, I started around 16gr and kept going up 1/2gr at a time. Used to rifles, I was watching for similiar signs of excess pressure, primer condition, hard extraction, etc. After firing a few loads at 19gr, I noticed that the bluing of the barrel ahead of the frame had a slightly frosted appearance. I'd swelled the barrel. The cylinder and the frame could handle the pressure, but the barrel in 45 caliber was too thin to do magnum pressures.

[dougader]

Very interesting indeed, when I first started loading, I found the max of Blue Dot with a Lee 325gr boolit in a Ruger Bisley 45 Colt, I started around 16gr and kept going up 1/2gr at a time. Used to rifles, I was watching for similiar signs of excess pressure, primer condition, hard extraction, etc. After firing a few loads at 19gr, I noticed that the bluing of the barrel ahead of the frame had a slightly frosted appearance. I'd swelled the barrel. The cylinder and the frame could handle the pressure, but the barrel in 45 caliber was too thin to do magnum pressures.

Great work, Larry. I admit I was expecting more of a difference between the Hercules and Alliant Blue Dot powders.

Wow madsenshooter. You're braver(?) than I am. You started at 16 grains BD under a Lee 325 grain bullet??? Any data I've seen with ~300 grain slugs has been MAX at around 14.0 grains Blue Dot. I'm guessing you were well past magnum pressures with your 19 grain load.

[454PB]

For what it's worth, I had a squib load in my Ruger SRH .454. The powder failed to ignite, but the primer alone pushed the 250 gr. boolit halfway through the 7 1/2" barrel.

[Bret4207]

Bravo Larry!!! Very well done! Very interesting results also.

[Bret4207]

When I read of reloaders saying that increasing the crimp cleans up a dirty load or helps the powder burn I shake my head. The primer blows the bullet out of the case by itself, the crimps only purpose I believe is to hold bullets from walking out of the case on a revolver or into the case on an auto.

Depends on a lot of things. I don't think it works that way in all guns.

[felix]

Bret, what Fecmech said is basically correct for ALL guns. It just so happens that crimping effects will become evident with marginal loads. If any slippage for a specific gun/ammo combo is noticed, it is best to compensate with a heavier or lighter boolit via the bearing surface alone. We want the crimp to work just to hold the boolit (either way) during recoil and external handling, such as dropping a box of ammo while getting it from the top shelf in the closet. That only takes a very small crimp groove, or none at all when the neck friction is right on. Unfortunately, the Keith design requires a deeper groove for flight parameters. I treat that big groove as a lube groove primarily. ... felix

[hiwall]

any more update ? I use BD in 22 hornet for hunter pistol . found the groups where big as a house after using the last of my old lot. So now not sure what to do.
maybe add 10% to the charge?

[OuchHot!]

Thank you very much for the thorough work! I was an avid coyote hunter in the 70's using a .41mag. I guess I did everything wrong. I had poor ignition in 20F temps with BD and went to magnum primers. Everything went fine for me; then all the warnings came out. I never quite understood how or why. I was young(er) and dumb(er) and just got lucky I guess. The two powders look to be as close as any formulator could hope for. I do recall some formidable muzzle and chamber gap flashes!

[Harter66]

I shot a couple of cans in shotguns ,I can say that I did see some depreciation in the extreme cold . The patterning didn't seem to be damaged but the 50yd geese of 50/30 degree late October became 45yd ducks and 30yd geese in the 25/0 days of January w/more cripples than DOIs . The dawn muzzle flash is/was pretty impressive also at 32-34 gr pushing 550g of shot.

thank you Larry for your time and data.

[Larry Gibson]

I still use Blue Dot in the 357, with 125 gr JHPs, the 41 with 170 JHPs and the 44 with the Keith cast bullets. Just have toned the loads down to non compressed at 100% load density. My old load (was in Lyman's manual) in the 357 ran 1690 fps out of my 6" Ruger and 1940 out of my 7.94" Contender (2000+ fps in 10" Contender) with excellent accuracy and no pressure signs. Went along fat, dumb and happy with that load until I pressure tested it. Keep in mind SAAMI MAP is 35,000 psi for the .357 Magnum. The "hottest" factory magnum cartridges I've tested run 28 to just over 30,000 psi. That Blue Dot load was 42,200 psi(M43)! That's why I toned it down a tudge..........

Larry Gibson

[charlie b]

So, am a little late here as I just heard about the warning on Blue Dot in the .357. I don't load max and have been using 11.8gn with 125 gn JHP's with no signs of excess pressure (cases slip out of my Python and primers are still rounded). I was about to load up some reduced loads (8 or 9gn) with the same bullet when I saw the warning message. In the past I have used a lot of Blue Dot in .45Colt ammo. The only issue I ran into was loads where there was less than half a case of powder. Ignition got spotty and had some pretty wild velocity variations (very hot to very slow).

What piques my interest is Alliant still lists a load for 110gn bullet and the heavier ones. What makes 125gn so different? If they said nothing 125gn or lighter I could understand, but, this is weird.

And then the comment above about it only applying to jacketed 125gn and not cast.

Don't understand.

[Camba]

Blue Dot is one of my favorite powders. I use it for rifle and pistol loads and it performs well. I use it with jacketed bullets and cast as well and used magnum primers (because that was all I had (CCI-250 primers).
Camba

[pworley1]

Thanks for doing some great work and sharing it with us. I still hope you write the book.

[charlie b]

OK, last one and I'll leave it alone :)

This lists some low velocity loads for the .30-30 with Blue Dot that seems to show a nice linear curve for charge wt vs velocity. I am going to try these.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

If those Blue Dot loads work for the .30-30 then why not a low load for the .357? Yeah, I know, case capacity and volume ratios. Still seems strange how this one seems to work. I wonder (no, I won't try it) if you calculate a reduced load based on case capacity, ie, a 1cc case with 5gn and a 0.5cc case with 2.5gn? Would be interesting to compare pressure curves (and no, I won't put a strain gage on my Python :) ). And, yes, the expansion rates are different based on case volume vs bore volume.

Still seems weird that one weight bullet is causing the problem and others are not.

And, no, I will stay with published good data and stay away from the 125gn jacketed bullets and Blue Dot :)

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Old thread, but did you ever get a chance to do any cold weather testing? I also like the idea of publishing all your results in a book!

[Larry Gibson]

I've shot a few 17.5 gr under the RCBS Keith bullet down around 40 degrees with excellent performance. That's about as cold as I do anymore.

[Hillbillyhunter]

I realize this is an older thread, but thank you for your efforts testing the powders and posting the data. I stumbled upon some unopened hercules blue dot and found this post while looking for load data and to see if current Alliant Blue Dot data can be used. Much appreciated.

[Larry Gibson]

You're welcome, was my pleasure......