Summer is coming back...Snake loads...

[jdgabbard]

Ok guys and girls, like the title reads. Lets talk snake loads.

I have a place out in the woods, and would like to develop two snake loads for me and the old man. He is a pansy so he only carries a .38, and I carry the .357mag.

1 So seating depth of the first gas check?

2 How much powder?

3 How much / what size shot

4 A .36 cal round ball crimped into the top or another gas check flipped upside down?

Gimme some answers guys, you never steer me wrong.

[oldhickory]

The Elmer Keith method, (which is what you're mentioning) works well but I've only used it for my .44 mag. Instead of using gas checks, I use .44 card wads and 5gr. of Bullseye with the smallest shot size I can currently find, (#91/2) another .44 card wad on top and crimp as normal. As a finishing touch I paint the over shot wad orange. It throws an effective pattern out to about 15' from my S&W 629-3 4".

1 So seating depth of the first gas check? Snug against the powder.

2 How much powder? I never loaded .38/.357.

3 How much / what size shot The smallest you can find, #12 would be ideal. I experimented with LEE dippers to find the one that worked for my .44 mag. Just about 1/16th inch below the mouth of the case.

4 A .36 cal round ball crimped into the top or another gas check flipped upside down? .36rb run .375"

[jdgabbard]

Well, I've heard several methods. One is how you described it. Another using a gas check on top and bottom. The other using the check on bottom and a round ball on top. I'm just checking to see what others have done with the .357/.38 and had success with as a great snake load. Anything has got to be better then speer capsuls.

[jawjaboy]

Snake Stopper.

http://www.gunblast.com/Snake_Stopper.htm

.

[DLCTEX]

I use styrofoam from take out trays for wads, cut with a sharpened case mouth. Drill out the flash hole for a push rod to remove the wads from the case. 3 gr.Bullseye followed by a compressed wad. Then enough shot to fill to about 1/16 th. inch from the case mouth. Styrofoam overwad, compressed and glued in place with Elmer's or, my choice, Dap Tub and Tile caulk. Let dry. Same load works for 45 ACP, 38 Special/357. In my experience, too much powder blows a hole in the center of the pattern. #9 or smaller shot works best. A friend found me 2 bags of #9 at a garage sale for $20, so I'm fixed for some time.

[Rocky Raab]

Speer shot capsules are so superior to ANY top/bottom wad method that there is no comparison. They're available in 38/357, 44 and 45 diameters and have load data right on the box.

[JIMinPHX]

The Speer capsules, with a slightly below max powder charge, give very good shot patterns with almost no voids. Half a grain difference in powder charge can make all the difference in the world on patterning. I did not see the donut shaped patterns that I was told to expect.

[1Shirt]

Have tried them all, and the speer shot cap with #9 shot is the best of the lot (although the others work ok). There is also the 3 ball load for 357 which shoots well and will lprobably do the job well within the same range factor. See Beagle's article on round ball loads. I tested all that I tried at 15 feet which is as close as I want to get to anything with fangs and poison attached. With the shot loads staying at least 90 percent in less than a 12" circle, and the speer caps 100 percent in my revolvers. The 3 ball load consistantly went into under 2 1/2". Don't know that the most ideal combination might be the speer caps as nunber one (attention getter) followed by the the 3 ball load. With the price of gas checks today, and the qty of shot you get in the gc loadings, the price of the speer caps seems reasonable to me.
1Shirt:coffee:

[Firebird]

You don't use the .36 round ball for cap & ball pistols, you use OOO buckshot; which is .360" in diameter.

[Willbird]

If you get bored try some EMPTY speer shot caps(I did use the plastic base wad included). What I found is that the shot inside is what makes them burst, with no shot they become a projectile. You can even fill them with white lithium grease. The ones I made like that would make a hole in cardboard at 30 ft at roughly point of aim then burst when they hit a pillow behind the cardboard. As best I can recollect I did not use any powder just a primer.

Bill

[JW6108]

I've used the Speer caps in .38 Special and .44 Special. .38 holds about 110 #9; .44 holds right at 200. I have gone as large as 7 1/2, but the pattern gets thin really quick.

I did find that the plastic may crack at the case mouth if you go a little overboard with a roll crimp. They would not crack immediately, but would tend to separate with a little handling. Ditto for the top end, the stress there coming from the edge of a SWC bullet seating plug.

The old yellow ones were much more susceptible to this than today's blue ones, but the issues can be easily avoided. To avoid stressing the cap at the case mouth, I use a taper crimp. For the end of the cap, I hold a file or other flat surface against the bottom of the crimp die and push against that to seat the cap, then remove the file and run the cartridge into the taper crimp die.

Cases of various manufacture will tend to have different degrees of internal taper, so if mixed cases are used you will see some varying OAL's, but this is of no consequence as long as they do not protrude beyond the cylinder.

These things work well; living in South Georgia and along the coast presented me with several opportunities to use them on venomous snakes. They, or anything like them, are good tools for this as well as for rats, etc. Have fun.

[JIMinPHX]

Just found my load notes...
4.5 grains of Bullseye under a blue Speer capsule of #9 in a .357 case gave me an even 20" pattern at 10 yds, book coal = 1.50. It sometimes helps to use brass that came from the factory with flush seated wadcutters in it. The Speer book recommends it. The capsules seem to fit better in them. I think that they have less taper in the ID of the case. I used S&B .38 wadcutter cases with good results.

A 20" pattern at 10 yards sounds a little too good to be true. I wonder if my condensed notes have a misprint & that should have been 10 feet. I'll have to see if I can go back & find the original target & see what I scribbled on it.

Edit - It was 5 yards, not 10. I found the original target with the shooting data written on it.

[Whitespider]

I messed around with a bunch of shot loads, in various cartridges, several years ago. I even trimmed 410-gauge shot gun shells and used them in a .45 Colt with cut-down 410 wads. Most loads would foul the barrel severely with lead unless something was used to protect the bore from direct contact by the shot.

When it comes to .38/.357 and .44 revolvers the only shot loads worth messin' with used the Speer Shot Capsules. All others were way too time consuming to assemble, produced less effective patterns, fouled the bore and were inconsistent. Of the propellants I tried, Unique proved to be the best.

[Gohon]

When it comes to .38/.357 and .44 revolvers the only shot loads worth messin' with used the Speer Shot Capsules. All others were way too time consuming to assemble, produced less effective patterns, fouled the bore and were inconsistent

I'm with you on that one.............. I played around with various methods of rolling your own and although they worked to a degree the capsules were/are better and they hold more payload. One thing is even with a good crimp the capsules can move forward in the cylinder on recoil. A dab of super glue cures that. A box of 50 capsules doesn't cost much and they are easy to load. Besides, if you need more than 50 snake loads in a season or two, maybe you might want to think about moving to a different location.

[Rodfac]

I have used the Speer shot capsules as well, but they're expensive and I wanted something I could build up my self...here's the dope on it.

I use #12 shot..harder to find but you can buy it in 5 lb bags occasionally.

In .38 Spl or .357, try 4 grains of Win 231..check a loading manual for a bullet of the same weight as your shot charge to be sure.

Prime the case, and drop in the powder charge. Set the case, mouth up, on a FLAT metal surface, like the anvil part of your shop vise. Place a coffee can lid, the plastic kind, over the mouth of the primed and powdered case and LIGHTLY tap the plastic lid with a wooden block and small hammer. The block will cut a perfectly fitting wad into the top of the case. Push this down to the powder with a #2 pencil, the eraser end.. Do it all over again so that two wads are on top of the powder, then use the case to scoop up enough shot to fill it just below the rim.

Then do the top wad in the same manner. Crimp in the normal manner and seal the top with Testor's model paint of an appropriate color. If your Dad is a wimp as you purport, hot pink, might be appropriate. Remember, he's the one who writes out and signs the Last Will and Testament!. .44's are done the same way.

It works, it's safe, if done in the above manner. Tapping on the first wad with the powdered and primed case is a little scary at first, but safe so long as you've used a FLAT surface to work on. Just like the inside of a tubular magazine for any lever action rifle, if you think about it.

Check the powder charge and use one that's appropriated for the weight of the shot. #12 is worth looking for...it really thickens up the pattern and won't endanger the entire neighborhood if you have to pop a rattler in the backyard.

The patterns are good enough out to 10 or 15'. Test them on a beer can. Penetration can be spotty unless you get the powder charge up where it needs to be. Remember, there is virtually no bore friction so pressures should be quite low.

Just my results and procedure...your's might vary...Regards, Rodfac

[woody1]

Loading “Snake Loads” in the 357 Magnum

Fired cases work best and resized as little as possible because they’ll hold a little more shot. With the already small payload, any increase is a bonus.

Regular small pistol primers and 3.1 grains of Bullseye. Why 3.1 grains of B’eye? Because it’s a mild load and I have a Lyman 55 that’s locked at that setting!

Top the powder with cardboard wads. I use primer boxes or similar for material and cut wads with a sharpened fired, not resized case. Over powder wads are same material only single thickness. I usually use several layers of over powder wads (3-5). This is not a thick layer like in a shotgun. There will be enough space left in the case for about 115 grains of number 9 shot. Less weight of larger shot. Slightly more of smaller.
Shake and vibrate the case to settle the shot enough to get an over powder wad (or gascheck) seated and roll crimp to hold it in place. If using a card over powder wad, use glue to hold it in place also. Elmer’s or similar works for me. Using a gas check pressed into the case upside down and crimped in place makes the load much less likely to fall apart. Again, roll crimp the gas check in place. Remember, however that the gas check will be another flying object and may also cause a hole in your shot pattern.

I don’t recall ever chronographing this load. There’s those who scoff at “snake loads” in handguns. I’ve even heard stories of those who claim to have shot snakes as close as 6-10 feet and had ‘em keep coming. Perhaps so but...snakes excite some folks and seeing one at 20-30 feet may seem like arms length. IMO a snake shot at a true 6-10 feet with number 9 shot with these loads will prob’ly be a sorry snake. That's how I do it. Regards, Woody

[R.Clem]

I tried the Speer capsules when they first came out, had a problem with them leaving plastic in the bore.
Since then, I have used different methods for my .357, but haven't really found anything I would right home about. Having no jacket to protect the bore from leading seemed to be the worst problem. I tried using the some melted out .357 jackets from the range, but couldn't get enough shot in them to do any good, (but they didn't lead the bore, just took for ever to prepare).
While shopping at a, then local gun store, I found a Hoppe Lead Remover, it is a rubber plunger type thing, with a threaded part to attach to a cleaning rod, with some small brass screens. A couple swipes threw the bore, and the lead is gone. I got one for .357 and one for .429.
So I went back to experimenting with shot loads. What i finally came up with was pretty much what others here have discussed, except I use a disc over the powder and over the shot punched from Lexon, and a half ounce of reclaimed shot (cut up old shot shells from yard sales and the range), the various sizes make it very formidable out to 10 yards or more.
Now the .44 needed more work, took 303 Brit cases and trimmed to cylinder length, pistol primer with a paper dot under it to allow for the different primer pocket depth, 8gr of Unique a Lexon wad, as much shot as you can get into the case and still put the Lexon wad on top and crimp. This proved to be very formidable, I have them loaded in my 44's for home defense loads, no recoil and will shoot threw a half inch plywood at 30' but shouldn't get outside the home and create other problems that a slug might.
The picture shows the 303 case cut to length before loading and firing, the right is fire formed and reloaded.
The long rod and attachments are the Hoppe Lead Remover, I don't know if these are still available or not.13033

[94Doug]

I have a set of the dies to convert .30-06 head (.308/270 etc) brass to .45ACP shot shells. The top is sealed with a 00 buck. Those would work.

[montana_charlie]

When my Dad died, I inherited his guns. Two of them were rifles I had given him over the years. One little number made me wonder why he had ever bought it, but it has proved to be a handy item for several particular jobs.

It is called the Snake Charmer, and the description is here...
http://www.snake-charmer.net/pages_us/iii_ultra-compact.htm

CM

[pdawg_shooter]

[QUOTE=dale clawson;548277]I use styrofoam from take out trays for wads, cut with a sharpened case mouth. Drill out the flash hole for a push rod to remove the wads from the case. 3 gr.Bullseye followed by a compressed wad. Then enough shot to fill to about 1/16 th. inch from the case mouth. Styrofoam overwad, compressed and glued in place with Elmer's or, my choice, Dap Tub and Tile caulk. Let dry. Same load works for 45 ACP, 38 Special/357. In my experience, too much powder blows a hole in the center of the pattern. #9 or smaller shot works best. A friend found me 2 bags of #9 at a garage sale for $20, so I'm fixed for some time.[/QUO

Same here but I use 1/32 gasket paper and hot glue.

[ghh3rd]

Hey CM - that looks like a dandy little shotgun to take along camping.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I played around with gas checks and cardboard wads, and then ended up buying the Speer Shot capsules, in both .357 and .45 Colt. My Mom and Dad had a bad rattlesnake problem for a couple of years, and the .357 shot caps loaded with 7 1/2 did quite a number on the snakes. The 7 1/2 shot was all I had at the time, so that's why I used it. My Mom killed at least two rattlers with the loads, one was a little over 6'. She killed the big snake right by the front porch at about 10 ft range, blowing its head off. My Dad found out they worked great on squirrels in his pecan trees out to about 12 yds, he killed at least 8 squirrels with the .357 loaded with 7 1/2 shot.

G

[35 Whelen]

Like so many others said, get the Speer capsules and be done with it. About 5 years ago the wife and I bought some land in a rural area here in north Texas and proceeded to build a house. Damn the rattlesnakes! They're everywhere! I killed seven the first summer! My bird dog's been bitten twice in the nose and sruvived, and we lost a fine Border Collie to a bite in the shoulder. I tried a 22 LR reveolver with CCI shot capsules and they were a joke. So, I bought a little 3" Rossi 38 Spec. and stoked it with handloaded Speer capsules...3.0 grs. of Bullseye if I remember correctly, and I just robbed #9's out of some of my skeet loads. Absolutely devastating. Now I am addicted to reloading, but to me, trying to create a home-brew shotload from gaschecks or over-powder cards, etc. is a waste of valuable shooting time.
I also keep my 9mm in my pickup (it's my concealed carry pistol) and keep an extra clip in the console that has 2 Speer loaded shot capsules on top. They likewise are devastating.
35W

[yondering]

I have a set of the dies to convert .30-06 head (.308/270 etc) brass to .45ACP shot shells. The top is sealed with a 00 buck. Those would work.

Doug, are those the RCBS dies? I have a set of those too, but instead of sealing them with a OO buck, I just use a paper wad cut from an empty primer box cover. I use an empty case to cut out a bunch of them, works great.

[ChuckS1]

Just finished Googling the Speer capsules and have only one question...why would you want to screw around with .38 Special when they're available in .45? Holy cow! I was thinking about it for my K-38 when I realized I can load it in my SAA! We only have copperheads around here, but geez, can't kill a copperhead too dead in my book. .45 Colt looks like it's just the ticket.

[Willbird]

Just finished Googling the Speer capsules and have only one question...why would you want to screw around with .38 Special when they're available in .45? Holy cow! I was thinking about it for my K-38 when I realized I can load it in my SAA! We only have copperheads around here, but geez, can't kill a copperhead too dead in my book. .45 Colt looks like it's just the ticket.

The 45 acp loaded rounds speer sells actually cycle a 1911.

Bill

[94Doug]

Yondering; Yup, RCBS. Have an article from an old .45 Magazine if you want a scan. Willbird; that's exactly what these dies make, the ones that cycle from a 1911.

Doug

[montana_charlie]

Hey CM - that looks like a dandy little shotgun to take along camping.
Actually, I only use it to euthanize animals which require that 'service' due to injury or disease.
CM

[high standard 40]

R.Clem,
I've been doing the exact same thing with the 44 for many years in my DW revolver only I use a .410 shotgun wad. No leading.

[supertodd]

I use the speer capsules in 44 mag and 45 Colt and fill with #12 shot- makes a nice pattern at close/snake range- since I got them I have yet to run across any rattlers, prior to me gettin them loaded up ran across 5 while salmon fishing.

[uncle joe]

Speer shot capsules are so superior to ANY top/bottom wad method that there is no comparison. They're available in 38/357, 44 and 45 diameters and have load data right on the box.

What Rocky said. these are great just fill them up with bird shot and load. I use 38 ones and I can assure you that a snake from point bland to 15 yrds will not survive this.
UJ

[DLCTEX]

I remembered some shot capsules that I got from a member her, so I loaded a batch for my 38 Spec. 3 gr. BE and some #9 shot makes a good pattern in the pond at 15 ft. I don't see any need to go hotter, as a snake at 15 ft. will not know the difference in a 100 fps faster load. I poured the shot through a powder funnel to fill the capsules and it didn't take long to know what level to fill it. Twisting the cap as it is pushed into the capsule helps to seat the cap on a full load (no rattling, full capsule).

[Willbird]

Yondering; Yup, RCBS. Have an article from an old .45 Magazine if you want a scan. Willbird; that's exactly what these dies make, the ones that cycle from a 1911.

Doug

I actually have a set of those dies, they are loaned out at present. They use a 38 caliber gas check to close the end of the case, and you can cut down 410 plastic wads to use inside the cases.

The speer factory ammo is an aluminum case, and it uses a hard plastic wad to seal the end, very much the same concept really.

Bill