Ricochet and more for school

[verdex0300]

(45 in the chat said this went here if i got it wrong sorry)

I'm currently working on a research paper for my college english class.
(which means i need sources and everything to use information)

I am writting on weither or not teachers should be allowed to carry firearms.
Now we assume that teachers are going to use proper ammo and that for logical assumtion good judgement....

But to persent this case i want to assume they are using something like .45 ball (more solid and likely to ricochet and that they are on an outter wall make of brick/concrect. I was wondering what the shallowest, and/or deepest angle the round would ricochet at.

(freak things happen so if it is possible to say that on norm this certian thing will happen i believe i can work with that)



and while we are at it the FIRST TIME QUALIFYING with a hand gun was is the percent of rounds that TOTALLY miss the target?

I just cant find the stats anywhere

[Blammer]

first time qualifying the percent that totally missed the target? that depends on how good a shot you are. Not to be smartpants about it, but it is totally subjective, there is no real numbers for that type of information. No one tracks it. Plus WHY do you need that type of information?

sorry no help on the ricochet info

[verdex0300]

my thoughts are, the people with the least experiance go out and get a weapon start carrying it, use the wrong ammo and try stop someone shooting up the school.

I want to be able to give some possible number to the worst luck worst skill not following directions actually hit a student

rather than the guy already shooting up a school

[PatMarlin]

(45 in the chat said this went here if i got it wrong sorry)


But to persent this case i want to assume they are using something like .45 ball (more solid and likely to ricochet and that they are on an outter wall make of brick/concrect. I was wondering what the shallowest, and/or deepest angle the round would ricochet at.

(freak things happen so if it is possible to say that on norm this certian thing will happen i believe i can work with that)



and while we are at it the FIRST TIME QUALIFYING with a hand gun was is the percent of rounds that TOTALLY miss the target?

I just cant find the stats anywhere

Why would you assume they would use 45 ball ammo, and why assume it would ricochet, and use your assumptions for research data?

Why not do the research and find out what exactly would be used and WHY instead of speculating? I think a good place to start would be to study airline security and air marshals.

[PatMarlin]

my thoughts are, the people with the least experiance go out and get a weapon start carrying it, use the wrong ammo and try stop someone shooting up the school.

I want to be able to give some possible number to the worst luck worst skill not following directions actually hit a student

rather than the guy already shooting up a school

Why not do a research paper on something positive and informative, instead of some baseless, fact less theory and provide actual data and information as to why a properly armed and trained teacher or citizen could very well protect lives of other teachers and your fellow class mates?

[verdex0300]

from everything i've looked at the 2 ways a student will get hurt is hit them by mistake or a bouncing bullet.

Typically you can assume ball will go off in its own angle after striking a solid object

(yes i know hollow points due to them flatting out can do some CRAZY crap too)

as for the assumption to .45 rounds there is a school near by that allows teachers to carry...they are kinda secrective on who what where, but some details i did get was they used .45 as part of their "special ammuntion" choice


idealy having a range of typical handgun ammo would be great.


Regardless i love the idea of the airplanes....smaller area plus risk of decompression all the same issues of what is someone tries to steal the weapon... Plus ALL the walls are solid there is no dry wall or anything...THAT IS AMAZING

SPECIAL THANKS TO:
MARLIN
for breaking my single minded train of thought and bringing a whole flood of new ideas....
and proving forums are amazing


but now i've had a full day school 8 hour work day spent little time with my baby girl and having a shower i need some sleep....i just cant wait for 4a.m.

[largom]

Sounds to me like your paper would be prime food for the anti-gun group. Since they base their facts on assumptions and unproven theory your paper sounds a little suspicious.
Rather than search for the path where a student MIGHT get hit by a stray bullet look at the probability that MANY students lives may be saved.
Any teacher or falculty person would have to pass a strict training program before they could carry on campus.
Larry

[Maximilian225]

I Smell a Troll.


:coffee:

[crabo]

The questions and how you are asking them seem to be looking for information on why not to allow carry in a college or school.

The whole thread feels hinky to me.

Just my 2 cents.

[Springfield]

Not only that but planes don't depressurize from one little bullet. And there isn't that much solid stuff in a classroom to ricochet of off, mostly wood and sheetrock. And most new shooters I know who decide to carry usually don't go right for the 45 Auto. Sounds like you are the victim of our anti-gun misinformation spouters, at the very least.

[Echo]

+1 for hinky...

I'm tempted to say 'Too many misspellings for a college student', but college students aren't what they used to be. I mis-type occasionally, but the above were just flat misspellings. Lots of them. So - hinky...

And aimed at a negative outcome, rather than looking for a positive. Hinky...

[leadman]

Maybe his english teacher should grade his posts for spelling and punctuation. Usually when I see an e-mail like this I mark it as a phishing scheme and get rid of it.

Could be he is just overtired?????

[waksupi]

I have been in training classes, where people who have never shot, kept all shots on the target. This was the norm.
Anyone carrying for defense, most likely won't be carrying ball ammo. I would say about zero percent. As far as ricochet, try some simple physics. The angle of incidence, equals the angle of reflection.

And I agree with others, if this is the level of English and spelling you are at, you shouldn't be in college. I would guess maybe junior high, with a steep grading curve? If really in college, you are another strike against affirmative action, in whatever form it may have manifested itself in your instance.

[Duckiller]

To be polite I would suggest he drop the college english class and take a high school physics class. Bullets don't go off at their own angles after hitting something. One 0.45" hole will not rapidly depressurize an airplane. Your assumption that someone with very little firearm knowledge or skill would even want to get a concealed weapon permit is very probably quite flawed. Most people who own firearms for protection of self, family or friends shoot often enough to come close to hitting what they intend to hit and are not liable to go bouncing bullets around a class room. Any superintendent, principal or school board that allows an untrained ,inexperienced person in a class room with a loaded gun should promptly be replaced with someone with a few brains and some real world experience. As noted above there is some who question the sincerity of your post. If your post is sincere I will apologize for all here. Parts of your posts indicate a lack of firearm knowledge. I would suggest discussing your paper/assumptions with a local police department or a sportsman or gun club to get better basic information.

[Lee]

Need to:

1. Turn on spell checker.

2. Turn on grammar checker.

3. Take a remedial English course.


I too, smell a ringer here.

[Recluse]

Reckon I may be the only one swimming upstream here. . . I'm not overly hinky about the post. Hussein Obama hasn't made me THAT paranoid. . . YET. [smilie=1:

I've learned to pretty much totally dismiss someone's spelling, grammar and punctuation as it pertains to e-mail or computer internet stuff. One of my best friends has not one, but two post-doctoral degrees or theses or whatever they're called. . . in macro-biology and macro-physics. Presently he is one of three scientist in a national research project that is getting closer and closer to finding an irrevocable cure for the basic cancer cell that doesn't involve radiation and poisons (chemo).

When he sends me e-mails, they're atrocious. You should see some of the garbage I get from folks I used to work with and those who used to work for me--highly educated, most with master's degrees, and their writing/style is pretty typical of what Verdex writes.

So with that said. . .

Verdex, you've come to the wrong place and you're asking the wrong people. We cast boolits and shoot them at things that don't shoot back and would rarely ricochet. And we don't give a damn what some school administrators might say.

So far as your developing hypothesis, there are several renowned authorities I would begin MY research with. In no particular order:

1. Massad Ayoob

2. John Lott

3. Rob Pincus

That's all I'm going to tell you. If you're a college student, then you know how to research. And if you're of the younger generation, you know how to google. Do that with these three names, develop a rapport, and then present your hypothesis. You will learn far more than you thought possible about your subject matter.

Regards to you.

:coffee:

[OldBob]

Good reply Recluse, the only thing I might add is verdex appears to be approaching this from the wrong end. The research as presented seems to be an attempt to develop theory to show why being unarmed is safer. I totally disagree with that approach, I would a damn sight rather take my chances on being hit with a stray bullet or ricochet than to stand and wait my turn to be shot ! I think reading a bit about Col. Jeff Cooper might be very worthwhile also.

[JIMinPHX]

Why don't you do some research yourself at a local range & present your own findings instead of relying on potentially slanted findings from outside sources? There is a lot of misinformation about firearms that is foisted on the public regularly from a bunch of sources that claim to be reliable.

As to % hits & misses from a new shooter - A DEA agent that I coached missed a half sized silhouette target with every shot from a hi-cap 9 at 7 yards his first time out. My little sister put 5 of 5 from a snub nosed j-frame in an apple sized group in the crotch of the same target at the same range her 1st time out. It varies greatly from person to person. I have been able to get everyone that I have coached to get their groups down below a volley ball sized group at that range within a week of coaching.

[Bret4207]

Looks to me like he can't spell without using prohibited language here either. Any reference to the f word is a no-no.

[Terrier]

Over the past 40+ years I have started many people shooting handguns. Only one insisted on starting with the .45 and she was 100% sucessful because she was very determined and very motivated (5-1" 102# and would never be a victim again). This seems to me to be a classic case of attempting to prove a point of view by finding anything to support it. I would suggest changing your premis or finding another group to help you.
Terrier

[Bladebu1]

I think he should do his "Paper" on how many Crimes are committed against people when the criminals KNOWS the intended victim is armed? compared to how many commit crimes against people who KNOW they are not armed?
Or maybe the fact that when people pull there firearm when ( as a victim) 96% of the time pulling it out or firing a warning shot is enough to stop and make the criminal flee. Less then 4% is anyone even shot .

Please understand I am not saying to carry or too shoot. You must make you own mind up on what is your life and what there life is worth ( the criminal). I already know what I am willing to do to protect my family. Personal My car and worldly goods mean nothing to me. Come after my family and or friends and me and You will go to the hospital. But to me my big screen tv is not worth someones life.
But I am sure my pit bull dose not see it that way.

[Tom Herman]

To be polite I would suggest he drop the college english class and take a high school physics class. Bullets don't go off at their own angles after hitting something.

Definitely take the physics class... In a perfect world, the angle of incidence equals the angle of reflection... However, instead of light, here you have a non-elastic moving body that will deform.
I suspect that for very shallow angles you'll get a reflection, but at steeper angles the bullet will just moosh and transfer most of its energy to the surface it hits, and either slide off, or leave at a greatly reduced velocity (less likely to hurt someone) and a more shallow angle.

[PatMarlin]

Sad thing is I believe he is a college student, and this is the product our educational system in America produces today.

It's a total different world out there now from when us cast booliteers attened school.

Just finished reading post after post on a Machinist forum from company employers and seasoned professional machinists, on how our newly graduated mechanical engineers with degrees from our best universities have no common sense and cannot actually build anything, or create and design plans of things that actually work.

So there you have it ...:roll:

[2Sharp]

I am not sure where your research will go but I have heard that Judge's have been buying and carrying "The Judge". It is the revolver chambered for the .45-410 2 1/2" shot shell cartridges. They are using the 410 cartridges as their choice. I don't think these would be prone to ricochet after initial impact and if they did would cause little damage. I believe I would try to get some with #4 shot so to be as effective as possible.

bj

[Heavy lead]

There is no paper IMO, or no real study here of any type. In my line of work I get at least one call a day that simply wastes my time that is assuming the roll as a potential client, the first sign is they block their phone number, it all goes downhill from there. Once it is determined that it is not a real client, I start asking the questions, such as who the heck do you work for?
This smells like that to me. Call me a sinic, but here is the deal I propose:
Verdex0300 if you are in fact doing a research paper for a college english class, what college? Your posts are asking leading questions from an ignorance backed knowledge base, that is obvious in the way you are asking the questions.
We will be glad to help, but either come clean, give us some real information about yourself, or go away.

[wills]

“writting”
“weither”
“persent”
“outter”
“concrect”
“certian"

What makes you think this guy could even be admitted to a college?

[scrapcan]

Here are a few others sources of information related to the subject at hand

1) Understanding Firearm Ballistics (Paperback) by Robert A. Rinker

2)P.O. Ackley Handbooks Vols. I and II

3)Hatcher's Notebook has a section on penetration in various medium.

There are many more, and several good sources would be the noted individuals above.

There are also some good statistics from the FBI on one shot stops and efficacy of various handgun rounds.

Do your research like it is supposed to be done, and that would be starting at the library. Get the good old book off the shelf and read a bit. Interlibrary loans on the above book can be done, a good library to loan from is Trinidad State Junior in Trinidad, CO.

Here is the website
http://www.trinidadstate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=328

Don't spend all the time cherry picking mis information from the Internet. If you are in college, you need to learn about the library anyway.

[Old Ironsights]

As someone who was given an "A" for the semester on the first day of Comp 101 - then told to go proctor the Writing Lab for the semester to try to help correct the results of the incompetence of the US Public School System(s)...

Yes, that is not at all atypical for college frosh these days... [smilie=b:

[wills]

Do your research like it is supposed to be done, and that would be starting at the library. Get the good old book off the shelf and read a bit. Interlibrary loans on the above book can be done, a good library to loan from is Trinidad State Junior in Trinidad, CO.

Here is the website
http://www.trinidadstate.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=328

Don't spend all the time cherry picking mis information from the Internet. If you are in college, you need to learn about the library anyway.

But he can not copy and paste from a library book!

[scrapcan]

Wills,

I agree, thus it is high time he learn to type also. As most of us can agree it is also a good time for he ( myself the most, and the rest also) to start implementing the use of grammar and spell check. ( this is something I need to be more responsible about as some of my postings on this forum are atrocious).

signed the slow typer and poor speller.

I am using (that is when I make the effort to do so) the iespell checker form www.iespell.com

[Echo]

Some of the mis-spellings can be excused as poor typing ('certian', for example), but I'll agree - could very well be a present-day college student. But hinky...

[wills]

Some of the mis-spellings can be excused as poor typing ('certian', for example), but I'll agree - could very well be a present-day college student. But hinky...

All you have to do is type your post on the word processer and run the spelling check. I tried to copy the misspelled words onto my word document when I wrote the previous post, and I had to expend considerable effort to prevent the word processer from correcting the misspellings automatically.

[leftiye]

Considering the low caliber of many school age persons nowadays, and the crap that teachers have to put up from parents, and their supervision: I'd not be surprised if they went "Postal" on the little PITA's. There have been more than a few who kicked some little creep's @$$.

[waksupi]

Anyone who frequents chat, know I am a notoriously poor speller in casual talk in there. However, when on the main board, I do make an effort to be better at it, aided by the auto notification on the Firefox browser.
I can tell you if I were an employer, and saw poor spelling on an application, your chances of getting a job with me would be rather slim.

[wills]

http://www.orindahistory.org/OrindaWay1924.jpg
The one who can spell gets to drive.

[scrapcan]

Wills,

Have you ran one of those? I can assure you the driver gets to work as hard as those who cannot spell! Four up on that bad boy would throw you for a loop if you hit a nice size rock. I have only ever had two up on the fresno.

[missionary5155]

Good afternoon
My 2 cents... FEW .. next to non first time CC person is going to be armed with a Caliber .45 Colt 1911 let alone 45 Ball. I would more expect to see a 32 or 380 auto. Check with the local gunshop and see what is sell.
Here in Peru the hotest seller is the Baikal in 9 Mak. The bulk of that ammo is FMJ. So there would be your reality.
Ricochet... take a cement wall and have at it. Or contact the local swat instructor. They get concered about that stuff.
Mike in Peru

[Trey45]

Somewhere, there's a bridge missing its troll.

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

weither or not teachers should be allowed to carry firearms.

Use Propa Anglish expecally ifin yer taken a Collage Korse.




Now we assume that teachers are going to use proper ammo and that for logical assumtion good judgement....

to Assume is to make an Az outa U & Me

But to persent this case i want to assume they are using something like .45 ball (more solid and likely to ricochet and that they are on an outter wall make of brick/concrect. I was wondering what the shallowest, and/or deepest angle the round would ricochet at.


Save this for your Senior Thysis in Tangential Veloctififcation. Your Goona like the way it looks by then.

You are Here!
http://www.postaudio.co.uk/education/acoustics/room_images/tangential.png

[Wayne Smith]

I smell a college freshman. Poorly thought out thesis statement, total lack of initial research to support or modify said thesis statement, and assumptions to replace knowledge. College Freshman!

[crabo]

You notice he has not posted since we told him he sounded hinky. What does that tell you?

[Echo]

He may be embarrassed, or he may be hinky and didn't think we were smart enough to catch wise. If he would post again we might find out.

[wills]

He may be a college freshman and we have exceeded his attention span.

[leadman]

He could just be a jock that got in on a scholorship.

I know how to smell, but me fingers don't always recieve what my brian sendt.

He might have realized he was addressing the wrong group of shooters.

[Dan Cash]

from everything i've looked at the 2 ways a student will get hurt is hit them by mistake or a bouncing bullet.

Try a third way, the bad guy shoots them.

Typically you can assume ball will go off in its own angle after striking a solid object

So will any other peojectile or parts there of.

(yes i know hollow points due to them flatting out can do some CRAZY crap too)

as for the assumption to .45 rounds there is a school near by that allows teachers to carry...they are kinda secrective on who what where, but some details i did get was they used .45 as part of their "special ammuntion" choice


idealy having a range of typical handgun ammo would be great.


Regardless i love the idea of the airplanes....smaller area plus risk of decompression all the same issues of what is someone tries to steal the weapon... Plus ALL the walls are solid there is no dry wall or anything...THAT IS AMAZING

What?????????????????

SPECIAL THANKS TO:
MARLIN
for breaking my single minded train of thought and bringing a whole flood of new ideas....
and proving forums are amazing


but now i've had a full day school 8 hour work day spent little time with my baby girl and having a shower i need some sleep....i just cant wait for 4a.m.

You need to focus and limit your thesis, do the research and then write using dictionary or spell check.