Pistol Primers in Rifle Loads

[Leadmine]

I've read in several articles the recommendation of pistol primers in cast bullet rifle loads.

What is the basis for this? How many of you folks do this?

Any comments?

[mooman76]

I've been told to use them in 30 cal. carbine rounds because it is basicly a pistol rnd anyway and they are suppose to go off easier! The 30 carbine doesn't have a real strong trigger spring!

[garandsrus]

Leadmine,

I loaded up some 30-06 with large pistol primers the other day. They didn't change the accuracy of the load. I don't plan on using them again.

John

[KCSO]

I think it depends on what powder you are using . I have gotten better accuracy with pistol primers in Black powder and pistol powder loads. Unique and Red Dot are two that come to mind right off hand. This is for W/W primers as that is all I have used for the last few years.

[StarMetal]

I also think it depends on the size of the casing too...for example, a 22 Hornet is too small for a rifle primer IMO.

Joe

[JSH]

Don't use pistol primers in a 221FB. I have used magnum pistol in some wildcat cases when fireforming. I have also used them in 30-30 and 06 with light loads, just tinkering.
Funny you should bring that up Joe. I had been using Federal gold medal primers in my hornet. I just picked upa 1k of pistol primers to see if the results are any different. There was a lot of discusssion on the subject at AR and other sites a while back.
On the other foot I am using The FGMM primers in my 357 mag, there is a difference on this one. Also the 357 max is supposed to use a rifle primer. I have not fooled with mine as of yet. The throat is so long that it looks more like a scaled down version of a 375WW, as per my chamber cast.
Jeff

[StarMetal]

There was a big difference in my groups with my Hornet. They shrunk more then in half just by switching to pistol primers. I think the rifle primers were blowing the bullet and the powder both into the bore and the powder didn't burn as efficiently.

Joe

[JSH]

What powder have you been using Joe? I tried some lilgun with good results. Then a friend of mine had some loads worked up with PR500 surplus powder that worked nice for the application we are using it for, condom load.
Jeff

[StarMetal]

With cast bullets I'm using 4227. With jacketed I use WW 296.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

In the 25-20 WCF, I saw an accuracy improvement through the use of pistol primers in place of rifle primers. I'm going to test this in the 32-20 WCF/rifle rounds I have loaded up presently.

[Blackwater]

It's been some years ago now, but I once substituted LP primers in a load for .... IIRC, a .30/30, which usually runs @ 40 Kpsi or a little better - same as some magnum pistol caliber full loads. With the variation in loading data around now, I did this to test that gun and load for pressure. If any excessive flattening of the LP primers, I'd know the pressure was too high for THAT rifle. There were no indications of excessive pressures on the 3 or 5 shots I tried, so I advised the guy to continue using the load in his gun.

Not knowing the results ahead of time, though, I DID most ASSUREDLY wear a pair of safety glasses over my regular glasses - JUST IN CASE there was a primer rupture and gas came back my way. I don't advise this. As Herrington said, there are SOME risks involved in most everything we do, from driving a car to who knows what all else these days. All I'm saying is that if you're relatively sure of the parameters, this kind of stuff CAN be done with full loads in the lower pressure calibers, such as the .30/30, that operate at magnum pistol pressure levels as a fairly reliable investigative tool.

Never did get to try pistol primers in my Hornet, but plan to when I get another. I never should have sold that gun, dang it!

Pistol primers are designed for pistol pressures, which run at the top end to @ 40,000 psi or a little more, so they're DESIGNED for that pressure level with safety in mind. For higher pressure loads, the brass cups should be a bit weak, but the way some folks load today, I'd not be surprised if the factories, in an effort to avoid idiotic law suits, didn't manufacture their primers with even MORE margin of safety than they used to. No info on that. It's just a suspicion, so don't go counting on it by ANY means.

It's a bit ironic that with the increased accuracy and repeatability of the piezo pressure measuring methods, the data we get varies all over the place now - a VERY good indication of just how many variables there are when we reload for a specific gun with specific brass and specific bullets, primers, and powder charges, using OUR dies, techniques, etc. I think this clearly illustrates that we've been dealing with MUCH higher variables for many years, than we'd previously THOUGHT we'd been dealing with. This in turn, I think, kinda' brings into perspective just how many variables we're dealing with, and why there's so much contraindicative successes with cast, or any other type of reloading in differing individual guns and loads. Sure keeps it interesting, doesn't it?

[StarMetal]

I dunno.....going by the primer is not really a GOOD indication of high pressure. I've noticed my Winchester Large Rifle primers flatten out really flat and using the same load but a CCI Large Rifle primer has rounded edges yet. Also pistol primers are either softer or thinner, or both, then rifle primers because alot of handguns don't have the striker force of a rifle. A pressure intrument is the only sure way to know what you have, other then that would be measuring case head expansion. Just my two cents.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

There can be or not be a reason to use pistol primers. But the likely chance that you can simply substitute one for one and see better groups is haphazard at best. If you change primer, any primer, you need to re-work the load by two grains either way to see what happens.

98% of my loads are for hunting. When hunting, I use soft bullets. For soft bullets, you need to start pressure out as slow as you can and still maintain good ignition. For any particular load / bullet in my 35 Whelen, pistol primers give me the ability to add more powder more before my bullet hardness level fails.

With 45 grains of RL15 I chrono 1975 using Rem 9 1/2s and my 250 grain slug. ES is 31 fps for a 10 shot string.

If I use Winchester pistol primers, slightly better and more consistent accuracy is possible with 47 grains. That chronos at 2120 fps with an ES of 44.

If I add .5cc of shot buffer for compression, I add still another 1/2 grain of powder. This chronos at 2150 fps with a 20 shot ES of 2150 to 2151.

So I use the pistol primer for this load.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Hornady, Lyman, Nosler, and Speer all recommend Large Pistol primers in .44 Magnum rifles, and at least Hornady recommends the same for all the pistol cartridges in rifles. As I load the same loads in both .44 Magnum pistol and rifle I was pleased to see that. IIRC, the conventional wisdom (written in March 1873 by Josiah Conventional 1849-1938) is to always use pistol primers in pistols and rifle primers in rifles.

[StarMetal]

Bass said: But the likely chance that you can simply substitute one for one and see better groups is haphazard at best.

Well John, I don't think so. I thought with a small case such as the 22 Hornet and such a small amount of powder, 9 grs...that a rifle primer was a bit much and was blasting the powder and bullet up into the bore before the powder even got a chance to start burning in the case first. Well it made a big difference in the groups. I'd have to say that wasn't a haphazard guess. Felix and other's have talked about the same exact thing.

Joe

[44man]

NV, I have to say --Duhhh--, you can't load .44's with rifle primers! You can load pistol primers in any case that takes rifle primers but not the other way around. There is .010" difference in heighth. It is dangerous to load higher primers in pistol cases. A lot of low pressure rifle loads benefit from the softer ignition of pistol primers. I use them all the time in the 45-70 BPCR.
The .44 magnum and .45 Colt are two cases that shoot best with LP standard primers instead of magnum primers. Fire without pressure works better in a lot of cases. Then there are cases and loads that need magnum pistol primers or rifle primers or magnum rifle primers.
Just NEVER use rifle primers in brass that is made for pistol primers! The .475 Linebaugh has rifle primer holes, (made from 45-70 brass.) but should be loaded with pistol primers to reduce pressure.
Joe and felix are right.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass said: But the likely chance that you can simply substitute one for one and see better groups is haphazard at best.

Well John, I don't think so. I thought with a small case such as the 22 Hornet and such a small amount of powder, 9 grs...that a rifle primer was a bit much and was blasting the powder and bullet up into the bore before the powder even got a chance to start burning in the case first. Well it made a big difference in the groups. I'd have to say that wasn't a haphazard guess. Felix and other's have talked about the same exact thing.

Joe


Joe,

You get by with it just because you are you.

Even you would never think of taking a load of 20 grains of 2400 in a case and substituting 20 grains of Blue Dot and 20 grains of H-110 etc and then saying H-110 is superior in this case.

For those of us that are not so lucky, we have to understand that if primer accuracy with a load is to be evaluated fairly, a load must be altered above and below to maximize the new condition. Same with a filler. You simply can't take one load and say that if Dacron is injected into the equation, everything will improve every time or never. That was the point.

[StarMetal]

Huh? :veryconfu


Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Huh? :veryconfu


Joe

Joe,

To paraphrase a great American,

You can not evaluate the success of dacron as a filler simply by inserting it into a case and comparing it to the old load condition. To be "fair" you must adjust the powder charge and compare the best accuracy point of each situation to get to evaluate filler correctly..... Joe Starmetal


All I said was exactly the same thing. It is haphazard (by chance only) to find accuracy by substituting a primer without adjusting load conditions to compare the accuracy point of one primer to the accuracy point of another primer before you make your decision. Although I will admit that it is done that very way everyday. That is the correct methodology for systematic testing and potentially the safe way too, right?

[StarMetal]

John,

I did that, I tried different primers, I tried different lubes, I adjusted the powder up and down....to no avail. Then I switched to pistol primers...bingo!!!

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Pistol primers are superior in "consistency" from primer to primer over any rifle primer made. I always try to find a use for them if it will apply since I shoot rifle speeds with loads under 40,000 psi. If I go over that pressure, then I just stick with a rifle primer that proves out. Obviously, there is a case capacity / bore ratio / powder speed limit that prevents a blanket statement and thus it must be tried.

The last great advantage to a pistol primer is the thinner cup which is easier for the firing pin to detonate. This probably explains why I never have any headspace problems especially when using something that is suposed to be highly vulnerable like a 35 Whelen to this effect. And I full length resize everytime to boot.

[44man]

Bass and Joe, stop kicking the kitty! Your both saying the same thing. Work the load for the primer. Yeah, I see right through you two and you have taken the chain pulling job away from me---THATS MY JOB!! Now how do I get that chain pulling icon on here?
Darn it Joe, where is it?

[lovedogs]

Not being as experienced as some of you I'm a bit cautious when I go off into unchartered territory with reloading. I have a friend who threw caution to the wind once. Just once! He's now blind in his right eye. Was his curiousity worth the price he had to pay? I say not! Just be careful, Friends.

The use of pistol primers in the Hornet is a bit of an exceptional case due to the size and nature of the imp. Some have touched on that. Being a sort of exceptional case it sometimes takes better to different methods, exceptional methods. It's one that, from lots I've read on it, can benefit from deviating from standard procedures, including the use of a much milder primer. But some of the things some people do are not wise. The use of a pistol primer in a combination that would exceed safe pressure levels isn't wise. If you get hurt flirting with danger you'll wish you'd been a little more of a conformist and less of a non-conformist.

I've seen mentioned the use of standard primers in place of magnums with some slow and hard to ignite powders on this site and others. In some instances it works out okay. In some instances you'll get poor performance. In a few cases it could create a dangerous situation. In my own experience I've found that where I live sometimes a standard primer just isn't enough to get the job done in cold weather. Go out hunting coyotes at or around zero degrees all day and try to shoot 300 yds. at a coyote after chilling a round in the chamber all day in a round loaded with ball powder and a standard primer and you'll get the idea.

There's a place for everything. We just have to use good judgment. After all, this passion of ours can be dangerous if we don't keep good senses about us. Use good judgment and have fun, my friends.

[44man]

Lovedogs, you are right on the money, it is not a haphazard undertaking. It must be tried with care and understanding as well as all other aspects of reloading.
As far as using standard primers, as I do in the .44, I have tested by reducing loads and increasing loads to see if groups go to pot in a hurry. They do not and I have no problems in any weather conditions. I shoot in cold and hot conditions with no changes in group size or point of aim. As I stated, this does not hold true for a lot of other calibers and the magnum primer is needed.
This was the old timers way of testing loads for all weather conditions. Once a good load is found, reduce the powder by 2 or more grains to see if there was a drastic change. Then it was increased by the same amount. If everything was the same or very close, this was deemed a good load and cold or hot effects on the powder would not cause a miss. If you are already loading to max, this load can't be increased to test and it can be a cause of great change when the weather changes, mostly when it gets very hot, but there are powders that also burn faster when it gets very cold. Good judgement by the reloader is of utmost importance. I have done the testing, shooting and hunting and there are places I will not venture. What scares me is that there are fellas here that routinely go where no man should tread. Others have done the work I have and know what they are doing.

[Bass Ackward]

The use of pistol primers in the Hornet is a bit of an exceptional case due to the size and nature of the imp.

The use of a pistol primer in a combination that would exceed safe pressure levels isn't wise.


Lovedog,

How true! And the safety issue here is ALWAYS assumed to be .... understood.

The problem is that sometimes the safety factor is not what it appears at first glance. Cast is much easier to start out in a barrel than jacketed, yet reproducible ignition can be more unpredictable with cast because of this. Or another way to say it, lead is more dangerous to shoot than copper. Do we assume the risk? Obviously.

Any time one intentionally sets off an explosion, the HOPE is that it will be accomplished safely. In the end, safety is strictly guided by common sense and based on statistics gathered over time. Still, the only "guaranteed" way to safety is not to set off an explosion in the first place.

It is actually safer to have a much wider cushion and use a pistol primer in a larger capacity case as long as you understand the causes and signs for SEE. The old bicycle / tractor tire argument. Same thing about bullet seating depth. Case volume is the key to pressure! This is why Quickload and a chronograph are a serious part of my chosen hobby once I leave the mainstream.

[bruce drake]

44Man,

You ask...You receive... I think the picture is appropriate for chainpullers [smilie=p:

Oh and also this thread was ......:hijack:

I use pistol primers in pistol loads but I'm thinking about shifting some over to safely test them in some cast load situations now.

Bruce

[NVcurmudgeon]

44man, thanks for the heads up on differences in primer height between rifle and pistol primers. I have been loading for nearly fifty years without knowing that detail of primer construction, as I always have used pistol in pistol and rifle in rifle. Of course I have long been aware of differing amounts of what makes a primer a primer between rifle and pistol. Also, I undertand that there are differences in cup thickness and/or hardness because of rifles having generally stronger firing pin fall. Primer makers don't recommend using their pistol primers in rifles because of the possibility of piercing a primer. I just measured primer heights in my collection. WW pistol primers of both sizes measure .120" and WW LR primers measure .127" (I have no SR.) I might be undeservng of the "Duhhh" as it is generally applied to the stupid, not the ignorant. This may also constitute obliviousness, but I have neglected to measure kernel size of the powders in my inventory.

[StarMetal]

This post is not to flame 44man's comment in you can't reverse pistol and rifle primer applications. Here are pictures of a Remington 45acp case. One has a rifle primer in it (on left with black marker pen mark) and another Rem case with a pistol primer in it. In person they both look exactily the same height seated. I posted this because some have come to believe after all these posts that you can't reverse them, Curmudgeon for one. I wanted to clarify that you can.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, you said at one time that the firing pins on the 45 autos are long, did you not? If so, it seems to me the primer pockets would be extra deep in the acp cases. Just so an aggressive firing pin won't puncture a primer. I'd say these acp cases would be an exception to the rule. The last lot of Remington LP primers I have are indeed rifle length if you consider the anvil as part of the measurement. The moral of the story here is to make sure the primer does not poke above the flat of the case head. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Give me a few mintues and I'll redo the test in say 44 mag or 45 LC cases.

But before I do take a look at the photos again and see the primers are the SAME height Felix, doesn't matter how deep the pockets are.

Personally I don't think 45acp pockets are deeper because there are lot of other type pistols and revolvers firing them Felix.


Joe

[StarMetal]

Felix,

This time Winchester 44mag cases. Primers by the way are Winchesters too. Rifle primer left, pistol on right. Satisfied this time Felix?

Joe

[felix]

I don't have winchester primers, Joe. They might be short, as are some lots of Federal rifle primers I have. We don't need this conversation because case and primer lots change way too often. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Things do and have changed over time. Bottom line is primers are interchangeable as far as size, application maybe NO. When I built that 38/45 wildcat for my 1911 it was said if you're going to run high velocity hot loads, you would want to switch to rifle primers because their cup is harder and the firing pin hole won't be cutting donuts out of the primer cup, as it did with pistol primers. So..I've been fooling with switching primers a long time ago.

To others stick with the appropiate primer for the application. This is only for advanced reloaders with a lot of experience and time reloading. No I'm not bragging. Just don't want anyone to get hurt, after all there are novices on the forum along with fellows that have as much and more experience then me.


Felix, not to flame you and have a pissing contest with you, but I believe you wanted to drop this conversation because you challenged me in my first posting saying the 45 acp cases have deeper pockets and figured I'd dropped it and you would appear wrong. Well 44man is wrong, you can physically interchange them...and you're wrong also. I know this isn't going to come off well, but that's the way it is.

Joe

[nighthunter]

Was the cartridge developed for Rifle Primers or was it developed for Pistol Primers. There is definately a difference in the primer dimensions. They are not interchangable. A pistol primer is shorter than a rifle primer and when used in a rifle cartridge can lead to ignition problems. I would imagine that this also effects pressures but I am not a ballistician. Can someone else answer this further?
Nighthunter

[StarMetal]

nighthunter,

Yes there is a difference in size, but it's not enough to make a difference in swapping them. You talk about if the case was made for a certain primer. Let's take CCI Blazer aluminum Berdan primed cases. Now I'm not the only one that has done what is about to transpire here, but you can break off the Berdan tit and load large pistol primers in say 45 LC cases for example. I've done that and alot of others have just to say "hahaha CCI, we did it". Yeah, don't recommend doing it. No I didn't have any bad experiences. Can tell you the aluminun cases won't last long and that is probably one of the reason CCI made them the way they did.

There's been alot of primer swapping in the past.


Oh, one more. Buckshot and I, and others have drilled out the berdan 8x56R cases to take 209 shotgun primers because there were no boxer primed cases for this caliber until recently. Did it work? Yes. Low power loads only.

Joe

[nighthunter]

Starmetal ... I'm interested in hearing of your tests and experimentations. I've always chucked those picked up alluminum cases in with the the soda cans and got 45 cents a pound for them. Do you mean to tell me that I could have used them?
Nighthunter

[felix]

Wrong about what, Joe? ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix

Wrong about that rifle primers won't fit pistol cases. You said the 45acp was excetion because it had a deeper pocket, that's not true. To me that inferred that they would fit a pistol cartridge that wasn't made for the 1911, a revolver cartridge if you will, so I redid the test with the 44mag.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Starmetal ... I'm interested in hearing of your tests and experimentations. I've always chucked those picked up alluminum cases in with the the soda cans and got 45 cents a pound for them. Do you mean to tell me that I could have used them?
Nighthunter

Nighthunter

Flat out NO. I'm sorry I brought it up now. You don't need to do it, there are many boxer primed cases out there to be had to experiment. If you want to experiment how about exprimenting to finding a cure to cancer or aids or something.

Joe

[felix]

I never said that, Joe! I never even implied it! What we have here is....is a failure to communicate! ... felix

[StarMetal]

I never said that, Joe! I never even implied it! What we have here is....is a failure to communicate! ... felix

Felix,

Okay then...clear it up please. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about rifle/pistol primer swapping. Felix I'm not upset or mad at you...honestly, let's communicate and get it out on the table. Maybe I can learn something. Fired away buddy.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, you simply match the primer to the load derived the gun on hand in the hopes to fine tune ignition. Period. Nothing more than that! It is really no different than putting racing slicks on a Caddy if that car has been tweaked for racing. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

I get your drift there. I thought we were talking more about the actual mechanical fit of rifle/pistol primers. There's not alot of applications to switch them, a few, but not alot.

Funny how you chose a Cadilac to illustrate your slick theory...fess up Felix...you got a blower on that caddie engine and slicks on it?

Joe

[nighthunter]

LOL Starmetal. I ain't got the money for that kind of stuff after the shooting stuff is paid for.
Nighthunter

[StarMetal]

Nighthunter,

Isn't that the truth for most of us. I just bought a gun, it's on the way in fact, due tomr, and I've spotted something else that went on sale that I want really bad. Dang.

Hey after your kitty litter joke I see how you chose the screen name of Nighthunter [smilie=l:

Joe

[44man]

Sounds to me that chains are being pulled again! I can take a rifle primer pocket uniformer and increase the depth of a pistol primer pocket to take rifle primers. Is it safe? I can also seat a rifle primer with twice the force needed to safely seat a pistol primer, Is it right? If you put rifle primers in a revolver with calibers meant for pistol primers and one sticks up a little but is not under the firing pin, what can happen under recoil?
Joe, you are promoting some very dangerous stuff! The difference in primer size is for a reason. To show that it can be done is a total dis-service to safety. I will not in any way, shape or form promote such antics.
There is a .010" difference in heighth and forcing that away is not in our interests.
I am sorry, but you are not showing any smarts here.

[StarMetal]

Oh boy, Well like Lincoln said about pleasing the people, you can't please them all, all the time. I knew you would get in on this. First off this is a discussion about actually mechanical fit. You're wrong about forcing them, I just done quite a few in quite a few cases and there wasn't that much difference in seating feel. I use an RCBS hand held primer. They fit and they don't stick up. I don't promote this, but there are applications. Here's one from an old boy in Australia that is wondering if the primers in America are different then the ones he's getting in Australia:

#PS: I've been told large pistol and large rifle primer cups in cases have
#different depth dimensions, rifle cartridges are deeper. Does that mean
#rifle primers are thicker than pistol primers? If yes, that would be a good
#reason not to seat rifle primers in a pistol case, i.e., high primer.


Indeed it would. I can't say that I have encountered the problem over here, but
I am on the other side of the world. What you have in the US may well be
different to what is available here. Certainly, rifle primers are generally
made of thicker material, but the external dimensions need not be larger.


BTW, on the subject of rifle primers in pistol rounds, another reason for using
them is that they are safer to use in fixed firing pin open bolt weapons,
notably SMG's. Back when we used to use 9mm SMG here, there was special
ammunition with a hotter loading and rifle primers, prohibited from use in the
FN GP35 pistols. Due to problems of ammunition being mixed, several pistols
failed in service, so the SMG load was withdrawn. The thicker primer, so I was
told, was primarily to reduce the risk of early ignition, rather than concerns
over pressure. A similar thing was done by one of the then eastern bloc
nations, with 7.62 SMG versus pistol ammunition. I can't recall how to tell the
difference, but some of this appeared on the surplus market and caused problems
with pistols chambered for this round.

Read and weep 44man, you're big safety post isn't going to make you any smarter then me nor my primer fit make me smarter then you. Seems the forum is who can top who anymore instead of educating people. You know 44man, when safety is taught, be it at an industrial plant or wherever, they also teach you about the wrong way to do something so that you understand it better. There ARE applications for reverse use of rifle/pistol primers. :kidding:

Joe

[StarMetal]

44man,

Forgot, maybe you better pm Buckshot and tell him how he's promoting unsafe practices by drilling out berdan 8x56R's for 209 shotgun primers.

Joe

[44man]

No he is not! as long as the primers do not stick up above the back of the case, and loads are tailored to the primer, he is safe. I don't know where you are from but rifle primers here stick up out of pistol cases unless you exceed the force needed to seat them. I will NEVER tell anyone to do that. I like the people here and don't want anyone ever to get injured. I would NEVER promote a dangerous practice!

[StarMetal]

44man,

Yeah but wonder if you get a reloader that isn't so bright and he is loading fullhouse loads on those 8x56R with shotgun primers.

Tell you what,you mail me the primer and I'll seat them in all the different cases for a test. I'm not forcing primers and crushing them. My god, I learned about that many years ago. One reason I have a hand primer is to get a better feel.

Joe

[44man]

There may be revolver brass that has deep enough primer pockets to take rifle primers. I don't have any! ( the exception is the .475, made from 45-70 brass and I don't use rifle primers in it either.) I seated a rifle primer in one of my .44 cases and it sticks up high enough to fire with recoil. The cylinder would not turn into firing position because the primer caught on the side of the recoil plate. I had to remove the cylinder pin and cylinder to get the case out.
Now suppose there was enough clearance to allow that case to come up and fire. There are still 5 more with primers sticking up and the recoil can set them off.
Now someone does what you say and has brass with deep pockets, OK, he goes along just fine until he buys some other brass but fails to see they now stick up. What situation is he now in and who would he blame if something happened?
And then there is absolutely no reason to shoot rifle primers in a revolver unless it is a large case like the 45-70. The extreme pressure can be dangerous and will for certain ruin accuracy. That is an easy way to eject a boolit from the case before the powder burns.
You say you have been doing it for years and I have to ask WHY?
I just went down and measured 2 primers. The pistol primer is .1176" high, the rifle primer is .1271", that is .0095" difference. The pistol primer pocket measured .118" deep.
You CAN make the rifle primer fit by crushing the anvil all the way into the priming compound. This can ruin the primer and if this is what you do, you are seating with too much force and have hands like a bear.
Sure, I can force in the rifle primer, but then why do they make all the hand priming tools so we can feel the primer seat? Why not just use the press and lean on the handle? Then you can make the primer a whole lot smaller! Enough force and you can push it in far enough to add it to the powder charge.
If anyone can find stupid things to argue about, you sure have them beat!

[StarMetal]

44man,

You're missing the point. SPECIAL APPLICATIONS ONLY. You saw the pics of the Winchester 44 mag brass with the rifle and pistol primers seated and not sticking up. Anyways I'm not saying to use the wrong primers all the time. Why would someone use rifle primered 44mags for in a revolver? Tomr I'll try a rifle primer in my 45 LC's. They always seemed like they have shallow pockets for even pistol brass. I just read a letter were some guy bought 3000 so he thought small pistol primers for his 357 mag and 38 target loads and when he got home he found out he bought small rifle primers. He went ahead and used them and nothing out of the ordinary happen. He said they worked okay. He did mentione that the load was about 15 fps faster on his chrony. Personally myself I would have taken them back, but his excuse was he bought them at a gunshow. No, he had no rifles that used small rifle primers. Once again there are just a few applications where the switch can be use, not an everyday every reload situation. You're just trying to make a safety issue out of this thread. Heck we can do that about fillers too from what's been posted, or a whole bunch of other things that's been talked about on here, like loading smokeless in Ruger Old Army cap n ball pistols. So can we move on now?

Joe

[BruceB]

Back when Canadian Industries Ltd was the major ammo manufacturer in Canda, they loaded the .44 Magnum cartridge....for RIFLES. At the time they began loading the .44s, the Ruger .44 autoloading carbine was just about the only .44 mag rifle on the market, and thus the load was a jacketed 240-grain flatpoint softnose. Remember that then, as now, there was NO MARKET for handgun-hunting ammunition, because there was (and is) NO handgun hunting in that country. It was .44 RIFLE ammo, period.

The primer used in this ammunition was their # 8 & 1/2, which was exactly the same primer used in their .270, .30-06, .303 etc etc ammunition.

At that time, we owned a couple of Super Blackhawks and a Smith M29. All of these worked perfectly with the above .44 ammo, rifle primers and all. The S&W had a much lighter firing-pin blow than the Rugers, but even it worked fine. The cases were reloaded with great satisfaction, using mostly CCI Large Pistol or C-I-L #2 & 1/2 primers, and again, everything functioned fine. The pistol primers were not "too deeply" seated for the handguns, nor did the rifle primers protrude above the caseheads. As far as I could tell, they were industry-standard for pocket dimensions when compared to other brands (Norma cases seemed a bit tighter in pocket diameter, but depth was never an issue).

C-I-L made some great products. The outfit that bought out their ammo production line doesn't do nearly as well.

[carpetman]

Years ago,I seated a rifle primer and tried it in my S&W revolver and it didn't go bang. This gun shows no sign of weak striking it does go bang with pistol primers. My gunsmith/friend was talking about Cowboy action shooting and that it is common to use the same bullet in both the revolver and the rifle. These said bullets are usually on the gun belt and during the course of things get loaded into either gun. I cant imagine that not happening. Even if you had a different load for each---somehow someway,they'll get switched--call it Murphy(not the one here from Edmund Ok)law or whatever but surely it will happen. Friend said the common practice was use pistol primers. Having said all that,that is why a bolt action 30-30 doesnt make sense to me. Sure you can load up a pointed bullet that is safe in that gun-----but somehow,someway one of those is going to make it's way into a tubular magazine is my thoughts.

[floodgate]

Joe:

" I just read a letter were some guy bought 3000 so he thought small pistol primers for his 357 mag and 38 target loads and when he got home he found out he bought small rifle primers. He went ahead and used them and nothing out of the ordinary happen. He said they worked okay."

SMALL rifle and pistol primers are a different story; unlike the large primers, the small ones are the same height: 0.121" +/- 0.002"; they differ in amount and type of compound and cup hardness, but are dimensionally interchangeable.

Personally, I can see using pistol primers in rifle cases for many purposes, especially for light loads and black powder (Paul Matthews has been getting good results in the .45-70, with cases bushed to take small primers and using SP's, with black powder), and from what we've heard here the last few days, they seem to help in the .22 Hornet; but I'd sure stay away from LR's in large pistol cases. Personally, as I said...

floodgate



floodgate

[44man]

Two things can happen, either the primer compound gets damaged from pushing the anvil into it and fracturing it so that it will not fire (can cause a hangfire too.) or the harder cup of the rifle primer can't be fired from the weaker mainspring of the revolver. A weak strike on a primer can wreak havok on accuracy.
If you measure the cup only on a rifle primer, you will see that it will fit a pistol pocket if you crush the anvil into it all the way. There are no special circumstances that warrant doing this.

[45 2.1]

Two things can happen, either the primer compound gets damaged from pushing the anvil into it and fracturing it so that it will not fire (can cause a hangfire too.) or the harder cup of the rifle primer can't be fired from the weaker mainspring of the revolver. A weak strike on a primer can wreak havok on accuracy.
If you measure the cup only on a rifle primer, you will see that it will fit a pistol pocket if you crush the anvil into it all the way. There are no special circumstances that warrant doing this.

So, what your tellimg use is to use large pistol primers in large pistol cases?

[StarMetal]

First I'd like to say personally to me, BruceB is one of the respected, experienced, vast experiences with many different firearms, on this board. I respect him and his knowledge highly. Bruce too had has been a big experimenter in his times, alot of his posts reflect that.

So you're hearing from more people....are you beginning to believe Neo (44man)...except you aren't "THE ONE". You don't have the experience, the inventiveness, in advanced reloading. You're fear of the unknown holds you back. Take an old man that his driven a car most of his life, does he have the experience, the ability to outdrive a professional NASCAR driver on the track? No Because racing is a whole other different aspect of driving. Same with reloading. Becaue you have many many years of reloading experience you lack in going beyond the normal and to advance specialized reloading. You're still stuck back in the ages of quoting safety, saami specs, primer dimentions. When HK was developing their caseless ammo they would have kicked you off the team. Lack of enthusiasm.

Now that rifle primer I seated in that Winchester 44mag case....after I deprimed it back out...didn't have a crushed mixture, didn't have a cracked mixture, and didn't have the anvil flush with the primer cup. All this after seating and depriming. Maybe we don't know that kind of cases you have. You're still stuck on the "ifs" if the primer is high, if the mixture is crushed, if there's a weak firing pin hit. You know "if" is the bigger little word in the world. If I would have done this, if I would have done that...get the drift? Okay, go away now, you bore me.

Oh 45 2.1 is :kidding: ya know?

....and an esp answer to your future post .....better then you.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Floodgate,

Yes I realize that. The story was merely inserted by me to show the revolver still had alot of hammer spring power to fire the harder primer and that he has no disasterous events using a rifle primer in place of a pistol primer. Like I said in a previous post I've used alot of rifle primers in special application in my 38/45 wildcat on my 1911 with not misfires or problems in both 45acp cases and cut down 308 rifle cases. I'm going to measure some 45acp pocket depths as Felix thinks they MAY be deeper. I don't think that they are.

Joe

[44man]

What a waste! Manufacturers go through all the trouble of making different size primers and primer pockets. I guess I am old fashioned and believe that there is a reason for that. 55 years of reloading and now Joe tells me I am full of sh*t and also tells the manufactures they are wasting resources and don't know what they are doing. Holy smokes, from the time of the first primer and primer pocket, these guys have been screwing up when all they needed was ONE primer. Joe has proven that! Just think, millions of man hours and dollars wasted when Joe had the answer. I feel so stupid!
Sorry guys, either do what is right or believe Joe, the master, and just stuff anything in your brass. I will continue to load my rounds properly. I will never tell any of you to stuff a LR primer in your .44 or .45. In fact I may never tell any of you anything again, Joe knows everything, why do you need me?

[David R]

Back to the subject. I bought a savage 340 in 30-30. Part of the reason I got it so cheap is it "needed a firing pin" acording to the owner. I took the 17 factory rounds that came with it and 12 of them went off. Upon further inspection, the firing pin was plenty long but didn't have enough oomph to whack the LR primer. I loaded them with pistol primers (the title of the thread) and every thing was hunky dory with red dot, WC820 and 2400. They worked.

Now I need a new firing pin SPRING.

David

[StarMetal]

44man,

I'm coming up to W. VA to visit you. I need to pound this stuff through your head. [smilie=b: Don't get me wrong....I DON"T dislike you nor am I upset with you. Hell if it wasn't for you I wouldn't have any fun here. Ok...let me see if can explain. Hey all you onlookers, this is between me and 44man, quit enjoying this at our expense. Ok, let's go. You read me wrong again. As a go by the book reloader 44man, you indeed have alot of experience and knowledge. I was talking about the few of us that don't go by the book, that do expriments in reloading that would be deemed dangerous by reloaders, like you, that go by the book. That's all. I never said you were stupid...you're not, that's apparent from your posts and your ideas. One more time....rifle primers were fit pistol cartridges and work, and work safetly under controled circumstances and only in a very narrow margin of applications. I DO NOT RECOMMEND SUBSTITUTING RIFLE PRIMERS FOR PISTOL PRIMERS outside of the parameters I mentioned. BruceB gave another example of rifle primers used in pistol cases. Now someone will come along and say well maybe those were special 44 mag cases with deeper pockets. I don't think so.

Okay...can we move on now?

Joe

[nighthunter]

When you are done with 44MAN drive a couple of hours further north and maybe you can get some of this "sense" into my head. You first have to give the reason as to why they call them rifle primers and pistol primers. They are of different dimensions and simply are not interchangable to my way of thinking. Sure ... you might get away with it a few times but sooner or later it is gonna bite you where it hurts.
Nighthunter

PS ... glad you liked the kitty liter joke.

[Duckiller]

Before people get too carried away I suggest everyone measure some primers and primer pockets. Win.LP 0.118" CCI LR 0.124" primer pockets got interesting. .44Mag, PMC and RP 0.118 ", RP 308 0.124 , LC 68 30/06 0.128", 45 Colt Win 0.118, PMC 0.119" ,Black Hills 0.125", 45ACP win match 0.119". CCI Mag small pistol and small rifle are the same size. Without smashing primers I believe I can load any large primer into any case that takes large primers and very few ,if any, could tell the difference.
What I got out of this thread is that I should try pistol primers in my .22 Hornet. Never have been too happy with its accuracy, factory or handloads. Will try a variety of loads. On all other calibers I will proceed with EXTREME caution. Duckiller

[SharpsShooter]

Joe,

Howsabout listing the criteria you feel are required to apply pistol primers to a rifle cartridge. I'm getting ready to run off some 30-30 fodder with 180gr cast and unique. Your thoughts??

[w30wcf]

A few years ago I tried rifle primers in my .44-40 and .45 Colt, both fired from rifles. Found that they would not seat flush with the surface.

I took 5 cases of each caliber and recut the depth of the primer pockets so that the rifle primers could be seated just below flush with the case head (I didn't want any magazine tube surprises nor a cartridge firing before I closed the lever completely :shock: ).

Long story short, I didn't find any advantage in using the large rifle primers for these two applications.

w30wcf

[StarMetal]

A few years ago I tried rifle primers in my .44-40 and .45 Colt, both fired from rifles. Found that they would not seat flush with the surface.

I took 5 cases of each caliber and recut the depth of the primer pockets so that the rifle primers could be seated just below flush with the case head (I didn't want any magazine tube surprises nor a cartridge firing before I closed the lever completely :shock: ).

Long story short, I didn't find any advantage in using the large rifle primers for these two applications.

w30wcf

I found 45LC one of the very short or shallow dept primer pocket cartridges. 44-40 in my opinion is in that same class. Makes me wonder why they are too. I haven't measured them yet to see what to do measure out to compared to more modern cartridges.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Nighthunter,

Ok, rifle cartridges normally operate at much higher pressures then pistol/revolver cartridges...but that is changing with the advent of the new S&W rounds. Rifle cartridges normally hold more powder too. So the primer has to be sufficiently strong enough to hold up to the higher pressures. It also has to have enough primer compound to be able to light off a larger volume of powder and in alot of instances powders that are hard to ignite. Thus the reason for a primer called a rifle primer.

They are too interchangeable in certain cartridges. We already know the 45LC, 44-40, and I'll add the 38-40 with not allow rifle primers to fit right.

Most of you won't have a need for this swapping. If there is a swapping the large and small pistol to replace the large and small rifle primer will be the more common one. There are very few applications of large rifle primers for use instead of large pistol primers.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Before people get too carried away I suggest everyone measure some primers and primer pockets. Win.LP 0.118" CCI LR 0.124" primer pockets got interesting. .44Mag, PMC and RP 0.118 ", RP 308 0.124 , LC 68 30/06 0.128", 45 Colt Win 0.118, PMC 0.119" ,Black Hills 0.125", 45ACP win match 0.119". CCI Mag small pistol and small rifle are the same size. Without smashing primers I believe I can load any large primer into any case that takes large primers and very few ,if any, could tell the difference.
What I got out of this thread is that I should try pistol primers in my .22 Hornet. Never have been too happy with its accuracy, factory or handloads. Will try a variety of loads. On all other calibers I will proceed with EXTREME caution. Duckiller


Duckkiller got it right!!!!!!!!

Joe

[45 2.1]

Check this out 44 man, none other than C.E. Harris is useing rifle primers in the 32 mag case, The link: http://guns.connect.fi/gow/ed.html

[Bass Ackward]

Boy howdy did this one get out of hand. Safety can do that though.

Safety is something we all have, and it's a natural instinct to pass it on. Even things that are safe can be perverted though. Take filling the throat, a common acceptance here. Well I saw a 7MM once that could swallow a 30 caliber under the right conditions. What constitutes .... over filling a throat? Surely there is a limit? So every subject here can become unsafe. Fillers. Lubes. Bullet hardness. Certain combinations of lubes and bullet hardnesses. Everything can become unsafe under the "wrong" conditions.

Cast bullets are advanced thinking when you deviate from the norm.

Years ago I aquired a Remington Rolling Block pistol chambered to 357 Mag. The firning pin came out a little far for pistol primers and would pierce them with heavier loads. The only way I could use it was with rifle primers. I didn't want to modify the pin because I was considering another caliber that would use only rifle primers. I lost some reloading options .... sure. Especialy on the fast end of the powder scale. But that was still a damn accurate outfit.

[Newtire]

I never said that, Joe! I never even implied it! What we have here is....is a failure to communicate! ... felix
If you guys don't quit, I'm going rimfire conversions on everything.

[felix]

Yeah, rimfire! Amen to that. Those BR boys using rimfire are fighting that fixed ammo way beyond what we would consider a hobby. They are talking barrel vibrations as a MAJOR culprit to accuracy in addition to poor ammo (design + manufacturing) from the factories. Unfortunately, there are not many options to have play-time fun in this arena. No, 22's aren't for your grandfather's fun anymore. ... felix

[StarMetal]

No no no no no no Newtire.....me and Felix got that straightened out. You're not going to stir up trouble with that one. Pay him no nevermind Felix. Besides, I can't argue with a man named Felix....he's way too cool. [smilie=p:


Joe

[bugaiho]

Leadmine,

I loaded up some 30-06 with large pistol primers the other day. They didn't change the accuracy of the load. I don't plan on using them again.

John

I just reloaded 130 rounds of 30.06 with 51 gr of H450 180 gr Rem SP bullet.. normally gives around 2440 fps.
Now after 20 years of reloading i have made my first mistake..I used a number of large pistol primers instead of the rifle primers. Am I in trouble?

I have found a few posts on the internet regarding if this is a big deal. Some say it is and other say it isn't, I sure dont want to pull all these bullets. I sure don't want to explode my garand either. I tend to believe there is nothing hugely wrong if I shoot these. I believe people are paranoid too, nobody told me any stories of broken guns,,, i only ran across your post that didnt seem to have any problem.

I am just plinking with these, is there any huge danger with going ahead??

many thanks.
Mike

[Bullshop]

Mike
If your loads exceed about 40,000 psi by very much you may end up with pierced primers.
That can cause trouble from the gas leaking through the hole and can cause damage to the bolt face at minimum and at worst damage to you from gas coming back through the bolt and into your face.
Pistol primers have a softer thinner cup not quite up to withstanding full rifle pressures of up to 60,000 psi.
Without checking the books and going on what I know about the powder you are using I am thinking you are just slightly over the top for safe use with pistol primers.
You may get away with it but it will only take one pierced primer to make you regret it.
BIC/BS

[bugaiho]

Wow, Quick reply!

I just looked in the book, it is about 41,000 for the speed and load of H450. So do you, or anyone else think I can get away with this?

[303Guy]

I think Joe is right in relation to the hornet. I have not tried it but from what many successfull hornet shooters are saying, pistol primers rule. The hornet may be a special case though because of its small capacity and very weak neck. Crimping is also supposed to improve accuracy in the hornet which supports Joe's theory that the primer blows the boolit and powder out the case. Now me being me, I solved that problem in a different way .... [smilie=1: In away that is only possible with Lil'Gun. But I still used sensitive and low power rifle primers.

[Bullshop]

If you do try them be sure to wear safety glasses. If you do get a pierced primer I would quit right there so as not to cause any damage to the firing pin or bolt face.
It wont take many to cause some serious erosion.
BIC/BS

[cast367]

In the past a used pistol primers in my 30-06 with 8 grs very fast powder and dacron filler. 150 grs CB Lee. on the 25 meter it give a very small group.
Don,t that with rifle powder, its dangerous.
IGnition in 2 steps, the first small, the second a boemm.

Cast 367

[dale2242]

A friend tried pistol primers in a 45-70. The primers would either not fire or not ignite the powder. BTW powder was W680 and used in a Contender. I know someone will ask, so, no I don`t know the brand of 45-70 brass or primer...dale

[notenoughguns]

Large rifle and large pistol primers are two different heights which would cause poor on no ignition .