This oughta B interesting!

[405]

Currently working on an old Khyber jezail with an original British Brown Bess lock. The bore is Afghan pristine.... crude polygonal rifling somewhere between 51 cal and 62 caliber and full of sand, rust and spiders :mrgreen:

The barrel is Persian damascus. The lock/trigger appear to be fully functional and are now soaking in solvent along with the bore. Once cleaned and all tuned up [smilie=1: I'm going to give it a go with a patched roundball over a light BP charge.

If I can get the thing to spark there will be holy smoke for certain just not sure where the bullet will go. Will try .50, .52 .57 and .61 fodder. With that type of extremely deep rifling it is difficult to say which size may work best. :confused:

Will, report back on results.

[docone31]

Cool Beans!!!
That sounds like quite the rifle.
It will be intersting to see what size it really likes.

[oldhickory]

Had an 1817 Common rifle once with deep sharp rifling, I ended-up using thin buckskin for patches. Got it at a fabric store.

[Beerd]

photos?
..

[405]

photos?
..

OK, OK heres the overall view. Also added a pic of the muzzle to the first post. The barrel length is just over 49" and hope it's not shortened after the first shot :mrgreen:

[JW6108]

Aren't those intended to be held against the cheek when firing (like a Japanese matchlock)?

[405]

Got me but I think you are correct.
I'm no expert at all on these. This one is the real deal tho. The lock is over 200 years old and guessing the rifle is somewhere between 100-200. It's my understanding some of the ones coming out in the last few years are tourist types- made to look old. Here's a link to some very informative and interesting info. Included in this site (you'll see the other link) are some tips on things to watch for with these things... old or new?

http://www.armscollectors.com/darra/darra.htm

I think most of these in the group with the long barrels/short butts including the match locks, wheel locks, flints and percussions were meant to be shot from a rest or crossed sticks, etc. Kind of a sniper type thing. If you try it, it seems logical to hold the rear of the butt with the left hand in sort of a bench rest position, prone, kneeling or sitting with the forend rested. With the butt in the left hand it would nestle between the chin and the right shoulder.

[curator]

The curved stock was designed to be held under the arm, clamped to the side of the body. While the buttstock was made for shooting off the back of a camel, these rifles were surprisingly accurate against the British in the original Afgan campaign. Read your Kipling!

[405]

Nope, would be physically impossible to aim and shoot this gun with the butt tucked under the arm pit. I too have read and heard all about that method with the so-called camel guns. I don't know of which design Kipling wrote. Even shooting this gun off hand would be nearly impossible. The length of pull (distance between trigger and butt plate) is 11" with a barrel length of 49". There's little doubt it would have been used as a "sniper" rifle, shot while resting the forend.

No matter, still haven't been able to try it- the weather has been terrible with rain, wind and snow. But, will report results whatever they be.... good, bad or ugly.

[Beerd]

I think I would use a loooong string tied to the trigger to touch off the first one,
maybe the second one too:)
..

[405]

As promised a report. I did think about the string and a tire method but lived on the edge :mrgreen:

In between snow squalls was able to give it a short go. After playing around with partially seating round balls sized between .495 and .575 I settled on .520. Pretty snug fit with ticking patch.

Charged with 25 gr FFG, lightly rammed down a lubed felt wad, seated a .520 on a strip of wetted ticking, cut off excess, lightly rammed down onto felt, primed the pan with FFFFG, put on the safety glasses, cocked, aimed at a 25yd bull, pulled the trigger..... click flop. No spark. Cleaned the frizzen with alcohol, cocked, pulled the trigger..... click flop. No spark. Figure, think, guess???

Turned the flint end for end to change the edge and strike angle. OK if this doesn't do it will have to try a fuse.... ala matchlock :mrgreen:

Cock, aim, pull trigger..... FIRE! No flames erupting from odd cracks in barrel and I could see a bullet hole in the target very near point of aim. (The gun has a posted peep with two holes for different ranges and a notch on top for the longest range) I used the lowest peep.

Cleaned the bore and upped the charge to 35 gr FFG. Aim, fire and the bullet hole showed just left of the first.... maybe a group? Cleaned the bore, charged with 35 gr, fired and the third hole made a triangle with the first two. A Group!
1.6" @ 25 yd.

The way the rifle is built there is no way to remove the barrel for complete cleaning so the clean-up was a real pain. Well worth all the effort and ten times the fun of shooting any of my super accurate jbullet rifles. Ton of history re-lived in simply shooting the thing.

Next outing will try different combos of patching like thin leather, a .495 ball, etc. but will not exceed the mild 35 gr charge. NO need to push it and should do fine at 50-100 yds.

[curator]

I know that it sounds unlikely, but who aims from the back of a camel? Bedouin camel cavalry engauged the enemy at sword-fighting distances. The original point and click interface! I have seen them ride and fire off the backs of their camels in Saudi Arabia. They couldn't hit except by accident. Rifle butt tucked into their armpit--reins in their left hand--try not to shoot the camel in the head like Lawrence did.

[mooman76]

Just an educated guess but I would think with that deep rifling whatever ball would fit with a good thick patch would work best.

[405]

curator,
You lost me and this thread is wandering a bit but..... We may be talking apples and oranges. A "camel" rifle is a widely used generic term for any of these Indo-Persian long guns with the short, curved butt. It may be too generic to be of descriptive use. They can originate from anywhere between North Africa in a wide arc and on into the Indian subcontinent.

The specific gun I have is a tribal Afghan Jezail. It is fairly crudely put together. The barrel is called "Persian damascus". I'm not sure, but the barrel may actually pre-date both the lock and the final form of the gun. The barrel may have started out life not in Afghanistan at all but in what is now Iran or vicinity. The barrel is well made and well finished. It is of swamped profile and shows signs of being re-fit from a previous platform.... possibly even an earlier matchlock or wheel lock. Hard to say. The flintlock on this gun is marked as a British contract in the size and dimension of the Brown Bess lock. It is marked 1806. The markings are factory not Khyber copy as seen in some locally made parts from the Darra area. The final form of this gun came from and has all the attributes of a pathan or tribal Afghan Jezail.

In order to shoot it, without other support, with the butt under the armpit and pressed against the side, one would HAVE TO hold the gun up with the right hand and pull the trigger with the left hand. That would expose any loose desert type clothing to the cock and firing mechanism. Additionally the gun is fitted with a posted type rear peep sight tower intended for aiming not "shooting from the hip" as described by any other offhand shooting technique.

The gun I have does not have a bipod or hanger. I don't know the percentage of documented original tribal Afghan Jezail examples that have bipods fitted or bipod hangers fitted but I see many sources showing such an arrangement. That supports the idea that many or most of these specific type rifles were meant to be fired from a rested, stationary position. Tirri's excellent book, "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib To Moghul", shows four examples of tribal Afghan Jezails on page 239. Two of the four show permanent bipod hangers. The four examples represent four ignition types.... touchfire, matchlock, flintlock and percussion. Three fancier example Jezails of this type are shown on page 238. One of the three is shown with a permanent bipod affixed.

[docone31]

That is an amazing rifle!
Glad it fired.