So, what's wrong with the 311413

[beagle]

Over the years, the 311413 has seemed to have gotten a bad rap from the NRA due to some "malpractices" during the war with people attempting to duplicate M2 Ball ammo velocities with it and 4895.

Me and Orygun Mark were talking about it the other day. I have four 311413 moulds, two are hollow points. Now, I didn't persue this many of one flavor, they kind of came my way.

I've shot bullets from all four up to 2,000 FPS in the .30/06 and get nothing but good results and this is what I'm getting from Mark as well.

Perchance there are better bullet designs out there but I beleive that we, as casters, have given this good design a bum rap over the years and it needs another chance.

What say?/beagle

[crazy mark]

Personally my 1903 '06 likes this bullet in the 1700-1900 fps range and it has shot well in my Rem 78 in 308 and a 7.5 Mas 49/56 and 36.
A friend of mine swore by this bullet and got me started using it. I have 2 SC, 1HP and 1DC moulds of the 311413. Of corse I always have to prove something wrong especially when people say this mould design is no good. My single shot 30/30 however doesn't like this design. Not sure about my other 30 cals as I haven't had the opportunity to try it in them yet. I'm sure my 1912-61 with the 2 groove 03 barrel will like it. Mark

[Urny]

I have not given this boolit a bum rap, and will not. Mine is only a single cavity, and for my money, the next Lee six banger should be a 311413. Like most here, I suppose, my gunsafe has contained lots of .30 caliber rifles over the years and only one has not done well with it. Sorry Mark, but it is my nice two groove 1912/61 short rifle. It does rather well with C309174, now called C309180, 311284, and 311291, but sends 311413 through the target sideways at 50 yards. I do not know why this should be, but it is the way it is. Two groove Springfields have done well, and isn't the 1912/61 SR supposed to use refitted and rechambered Springfield barrels?

It is not my normal practice to shoot cast at much over 1600-1700 fps, but may have to try 311413 for that, 'cause there is nothing wrong with it.

Ernie

[felix]

Tony and I picked one up a couple of years ago. It's a LBT 4 banger, gas checked, 3 shallow lube grooves. It casts with WW right at 165 grains, and shoots good in two 12 twist guns, a 340 in 30-30, and a browning #1 barrel in 308W. It is a spitten image of 311413, but without the sharpened shank. Sample boolits will be supplied upon request, and if none available, the mold can be shipped with Tony's effort. He presently has the mold.

No, the LBT looks a little closer to 321297, but with a sharper point and without the "scrapper" band. So, we might surmise the LBT is an offspring of 311413 and 321297. ... felix

[crazy mark]

Ernie,
The 1912-61's with 2 groove barrels are supposed to have Sringfield barrels on them. The 4 groove were supposed to be relined from 8MM. Of course I may be wrong but so far my '03 and the 1912-61 seem to like the same bullets but it may be the case difference. '06 vs 7,62 NATO. Need to shoot some in my '06 Madsen M48. I haven't put more than 50 rounds thru it and have had it over 3 years. Mark

[45 2.1]

If everybody is serious about a LEE six cavity in this, send me some samples that are proven to the higher velocities and i'll draw the thing up.

[felix]

Send me your addy and I will mail a few LBT boolits to you. ... felix

[Buckshot]

..............Not to be OT about the 311413, but wasn't the M1912 Steyr a 7x57? Well I guess there may have been other contracts besides Chile using the 1921 Steyr action.

http://www.fototime.com/31EC9D2509BF41E/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/B441C5D527F28FE/standard.jpg

.................Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

My non-vented old Ideal 311413 is the best casting mould I have. My NRA Sporter Springfield shoots five shot 100 yd. two inch groups with 9.0 Green Dot @ 1240 fps. The No.4 Lee-Enfield groups the same load in 2.5" @ 1270 fps. This mould casts WW + 2% tin .314". I size .314" for the L-E and .310" for the Springfield. Your granny can shoot these loads all day. For 1400-1800 fps loads, I have better results with heavier RN boolits. curmudgeon

[bfoster]

This bullet really was Col. Harrison's "hobby horse." He did note that it did well for him at 1300 fps. With his experience, abilities, and resources I simply do not know why he had problems beyond this speed.

I recently acquired a 311413 U: I can't complain about the performance of this in my M70 in 30-06: I've not taken it to 2000 fps, but yesterday I ran a ladder test to 1800 fps without groups opening up significantly or evidence of keyholing.

The ***** thing is that the experience of a dozen plus handloaders with this bullet as written up in the Lyman CBH 1 was dismissed by the NRA. Given my experience today, I think that this was a mistake...

Bob

[bdoyle]

Buckshot,
I had a Chilean Modelo 1912 in 7X57. But while I was looking at them( at Big 5) there where a few that had been converted to 308. Don't know who did it but there were more 308 available then the 7x57 (at that store).

Brian

[Bob S]

The Chilean Steyr Model 1912/61 is a short rifle fitted with a surplus M190A3 barrel provide by the US on an FMS case. Both two-groove and four groove barrels were used, and they were rebreeched and recontoured. The "donor" rifle was the Modelo 1912 long rifle. The stocks were cut to fit the short barrels, and the upper band spring was inletted into the LEFT side of the stock, as there was not enough length in the stubby fore-end to get both springs on the right side:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mausers/ChileanSRright.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Mausers/ChileanSRleft.jpg

You can still see the hole on the upper band on the right side where the lug on the spring engaged it in the long rifle configuration; also note the parade hook on the upper band, also left over from the long rifle configuration.

These rifles, at least the ones that I have seen, got a lot of use. Some of the stocks must have been "firewood" grade, because there were a bunch of these offered as "gunsmith specials" without wood and with broken or missing parts. So you will see these rifles with a conglomeration of '98 Mauser parts, and in Vz 24 or K98k stocks, too, but they weren't made or imported that way.

The Chilean M1912/67 is a Steyr Modelo 1912 Long Rifle that has been rebored to .30 cal, and the chamber has been reamed out and a 7.62 x 51 chamber insert has been pressed and brazed in. It remains in the long rifle configuration. These long rifles, at least the ones I have seen, show little sign of use after conversion. They are much maligned because of the chamber insert, but I shoot mine all the time, almost exclusively with cast bullets, though.

Some M1895 Chileans were also converted to 7.62 x 51, but I don't own one. Most info I have seen on these indicates that these were all done by reboring and have the chamber sleeve.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Bob S]

None of you guys that have had good results with this number have posted any load data: care to share? I have one that I have not yet used and I am ready to try it.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Urny]

Bob S, thank you for the information about the 1912/61 & 67. Much there I did not know.

For .308 and .30-06, any case, any LR primer, and 11-13 grains Red Dot, about 14-16 grains 2400, or 20-21 grains Turk Surplus work well at the lower end, 30-35 grains Turk Surplus takes it to about 1500-1700, depending on case. I use more WW primers than anything else, but don't think that makes any difference in the loads. By the bye, my chronograph was killed some years ago, so the velocities are strictly IIRC, and that's a pretty chancy thing.

Ernie

[bfoster]

BobS,

16 to 23 grains of SR 4759. Tightest group (just over 1 1/4" @ 100 yds) at 18.2 grains. Monotype bullet. No wad, each cartridge was given the "SAAMI twist" before (single) loading. Two comments-

1. Rifles seem to either produce results with this powder or not, I've seen little middle ground.

2. Throughout the range listed above the groups produced closed and opened in size several times. I don't suspect that 23 grains is a "top" load. I stopped there simply because I'm conservative in how "hard" I'll "push" a bullet with a geometry like 311413 (U).

Bob

[Char-Gar]

Lyman 311413 is the Lyman rendition of the famous 169 Squibb bullet. It goes back to at least the 1920's and comes from a chap named Sam Squibb in Lima Ohio. It must be a good design as it has been very popular, with just about every mold maker producing a version. I have molds for this bullet by Lyman, Cramer, Belding and Mull and Hensley and Gibbs. I am keeping my eye open for a Modern Bond if they made one.

To be honest I have not fired one of these since the early 60's when we wre getting good results with this bullet over a moderate does of BallC (original lot).

One of my retirment project is to cast up a pile of this bullets from all molds and see how they stack up against each other. Anybody got a Modern Bond for sale?

[felix]

Try 23-25 grains of N120, or any 4227 in 3006. Drop 2 grains for 308W. ... felix

[Urny]

45 2.1, I do not have any that are not loaded right now, but after NCBS '05 I will cast up a bunch and send them to you. If someone else can supply a few before that, go for it. If this one goes, I'll take at least two.

Ernie

[joeb33050]

It seems from reading the above that I'm the only one left who doesn't like the 311413. My first mold was for this bullet, bought in 1960. At this time 311413 was the most popular 30 caliber mold, recommended to 600 yards in the Lyman handbook. We tried about everything, and got poor results at 100 and 200 yards with it. Well over 2" at 100, 5" or bigger at 200. We got a 31141 mold, then 311291 and 311299. These all shot better easier than 311413. Since then I've tried maybe 5 molds in 311413, thinking that if it shot well in the late 50's it should shoot now. It never did. I don't recall ever shooting a 5-shot 100 yard group under 2" with 311413, while 31141 and 311299 will shoot the occasional group of 1", and with a good rifle may average a bit over an inch. 311291 shoots a little bigger and is not my choice now. The Loverin bullets never shot well for us either. BTW, with a Loverin bullet in a Ruger BA 243, the first group out of the gun was 5 shots in 7/8" at 100 yards, and never shot another group under an inch and a half.
I've read allusions to the notion that the 311413 got smaller in the nose area as time went on-hence the lack of accuracy. This bullet, 311413, was used as the example for the statement "Pointed lead bullets won't shoot." That, of course, has been proven untrue.
joe b.

[Maineboy]

I don't dislike the 311413, it does acceptable work at slower speeds. There are just so many better boolits out there. Mine is a single cavity and was my first rifle mould that was not a Lee. It got a fair amount of use, but was frustrating when the velocity was cranked up a bit. I have a double cavity 311375, which looks like a short 311332 and weighs about the same as the 311413. It will shoot rings around the 413, especially when the velocity gets up to 1600 fps or more.

[Willbird]

I have one,put it for sale on the other board with no takers,I have never shot any boolits from it, Dad told me it would shoot ok with mild loads but if you gave her the gass it didnt shoot good no more. It has a tapered gas check shank which is kind of gay,maybe I'll cast a few and see what it does in the 788 30-30 just for giggles, maybe I don'twant to sell it after all hehe.

I had thought about hollow pointing it

Bill

[floodgate]

Chargar: So far as I can determine from their listings, Modern-Bond never made the Squibb bullet, though a couple come close: D-311145, 180 gr. Spitzer with plain base and K-311140, 190 gr. spitzer gas check withtheir odd wide middle band. I have a mould for the fomer, and if & when I get to it I could run you a few. PM me a reminder. floodgate

[castshooter-too]

can anyone post a pic. of this boolit? I don't see it shown in my lyman #46 reference. Is this boolit cast at 165gr? any historic info. would be appreciated. THANKS, BRUCE IN N.Y.

[Char-Gar]

go to www.castpics.net and when there click on the research section. You will find photos of Lyman bullets and 311413 is listed there.

As far as history goes, all I have been able to determine is that is was deisgned/developed by a guy named Sam Squibb in Lima Ohio back in the 1920's. It referred to in older reference books as "The 169 grain Squibb bullet" It was a very popular bullets with Lyman, Cramer, Belding and Mull and Hensley and Gibbs making molds for it. I have managed to collect all of the foregoing makes of molds in this bullet.

I am looking forward (someday) to giving all of them a through test. From what I understand, this designs works well until the velocity gets above 1.9K fps or thereabouts. There are many other designs that are more versatile and about the only reason to shoot this bullets is just for fun and to experiment, and/or it is the only mold you own. Being an ogival spire design, I suspect that the barrel rifling style will have a big impact on how this bullet performs. That is one thing I want to find out.

I am always interested in collect more information on this bullet, it's history, and use.

[Maineboy]

There's a 4-holer for sale on eBay,
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=71118&item=7149466159&rd=1

[castshooter-too]

Thanks MAINEBOY ; Thats what I needed . Pictures tell it all for me, this boolit looks alot like a short version of the 311332 180gr. lyman design. Is this correct? :-)

[Maineboy]

Thanks MAINEBOY ; Thats what I needed . Pictures tell it all for me, this boolit looks alot like a short version of the 311332 180gr. lyman design. Is this correct? :-)
Maybe these pictures will help:


The first picture is the 413, next the 332. The 3rd one is the 375 and that is the one I think looks like the 332. Between the 413 and the 332 the 332 is the one I have all the luck with.