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BCB
02-15-2006, 03:37 PM
An acquaintance has a 54 caliber CVA muzzle gun. It has been converted to ignite with 209’s. He has used round balls and Thompson/Center maxi-balls with no success to speak of and also BP and Pyrodex. The rifle is topped with a ‘scope and it is being shot from a bench. He was wondering about hollow base slugs for this critter. Anyone use them, are there any molds available—or any other thoughts? Thanks…BCB

waksupi
02-15-2006, 08:39 PM
An acquaintance has a 54 caliber CVA muzzle gun. It has been converted to ignite with 209’s. He has used round balls and Thompson/Center maxi-balls with no success to speak of and also BP and Pyrodex. The rifle is topped with a ‘scope and it is being shot from a bench. He was wondering about hollow base slugs for this critter. Anyone use them, are there any molds available—or any other thoughts? Thanks…BCB

If he tried round ball and BP, he probably had too much primer spark. Change the nipple back, and try again. And my thoughts are, stick to BP, and RB.

OldBob
02-15-2006, 09:23 PM
What twist is the barrel ? CVA has had both 1:28 and 1:48 twist in .54 I believe. If its the 1:48 try cutting the powder charge to 75 grs FFG or even less and use the standard primer as waksupi says, patch the ball real tight and use a good black powder lube. If its the 1:28 I'm not sure if you can get it to like round balls but the conicals should shoot ok . How much powder is he using and what lube ?

versifier
02-16-2006, 02:32 AM
209's are fine for inlines, but if he wants better ignition with a sidelock, as Waksupi pointed out, the #11 cap nipple it came with or a musket cap nipple are the way to go. And as Old Bob pointed out, you didn't give us any info on charges used, the lube, or the twist rate of the barrel - kind of hard to nail down the problem without some more data. Psychic we are not, but willing to help we are. I'm not a big fan of CVA's, but they are fine for an "entry level" m/l and certainly capable of "pieplate test" or "minute of deer" accuracy out to 100yds or more. What kind of groups is it actually shooting - "no success to speak of" is kind of vague. Is the wedge pin in tightly? Is the scope mount solid? What is the range?
Here's a list of needed info for a meaningful answer:
1. charge weights? (I'd start at 60gr vol with Pyrodex and BP & work up to 120gr)
2. lube? (patch thickness and size of rb)
3. twist rate of barrel?
4. range tested at?
5. actual group sizes?
6. are balls and Maxi's pure lead?
7. are pins, screws, and scope mounts checked and solid?
8. 1, 2, 4, & 5 with #11 cap nipple?

BCB
02-16-2006, 03:49 PM
Since this project is not mine and I am hearing things from the actual owner of the muzzle gun, it is difficult to supply all of the info requested. It seems that accuracy is 2 will be acceptable at 100 yards and the other one may not even hit the paper. I don't know if it is always the 3rd shot that is the problem.

The round balls he casts himself and I assume they are soft, maybe pure lead. The maxi's he gets are Thompson/Center bullets. So I guess it is what ever they make?

And, do any of you think that a hollow base bullet may help? And can you suggest any molds? Thanks...BCB

shooter575
02-17-2006, 03:58 PM
The only .54 hollow based moulds [minnes]I know of are the Lee,Rapine and RCBS. The RCBS is a adjustable length mould. I have heard good things about it.Havent goten any good feedback on the Lee though.Rapine has a couple diffrent ones Mixed results. This is all in .54 Mississippi rifles with 1:48 to 1:68 twist barrels. Remember most minnies will not take a huge charge.They were made for around 60 gr. Skirt is too thin and may seperate.ie blown skirt.

versifier
02-17-2006, 07:09 PM
The Maxis are pure lead. The lube (I assume they're the pre lubed ones?) they come with is fine. The patch/lube for the rb's may be an issue. The problem might simply be too much fouling in the bore from inadequate or ineffective lube. You never get more than one shot at a deer anyway, so if the first one goes where it is supposed to, that may be enough to do the job. You are not exactly talking about a target rifle here, BTW. The propellant may be the issue - too much or not enough. Improper cleaning could be an issue, too. If it sat uncleaned too long at one point, it could conceivably have roughened the bore to the point where it fouls quickly and no amount of playing with the loads will make much difference. More questions than answers. Can you borrow it and do some diagnostics yourself of do you have to do it all from a distance? PITA for you, but if we can help, we will.

waksupi
02-18-2006, 01:34 AM
See if he is using Bore Butter, or Wonderlube 1000. Any of the commercial yellow stuff. If so, throw it away. Use Moose Milk, 1 part water soluble machine oil, to 10-12 parts water.

Buckshot
02-18-2006, 08:23 AM
...............BCB, you know, it could be one or two of a hundred things. Re the 209 primers. BP doesn't need the intensity. They were mainly for the higher temps required for Pyrodreck.

At it's simplist it could merely be the way, and the things he's using to load it. Also, HOW he's loading it. I've seen guys run a PRB home and then stand there and bounce the ramrod off the ball 3 or more times. For what!? Where'd they learn that? A RB is a poor ballistic shape to begin with, without beating it up anymore. Also, the nipple or cone is a very important part of a percussion rifle's accuracy potential. Nipples are not forever, and especially plain steel ones. Lots of hot high pressure (speed) gas passes through it in 2 directions and they erode.

Another problem is that the BP we have now, with the exception of the Swiss (so far as I know) is poor. It's getting better but is still a poor second or third quality compared to the late 19th century's BP. The last time I used GOEX was maybe 7-8 years ago. At that time it produced (or the lot I had did) a hard crusty fouling. I'd seen guys fire a couple shots then get a slug halfway down the barrel. They had to pick up the rifle and bang the end of the ramrod against the bench leg to get the ball home.

I've seen guys like the above resort to patching out the barrel between shots in order to load the next. That's crazy.

If he's shooting a PRB the patch material and ball size should be such that he can thump them with the ball of his hand and set it into the muzzle. For shooting lots of rounds at the range, a ball starter saves eventual wear on the hand :-). Once seated the ramrod held in one hand should be able to smoothly, and in one continuous motion seat the ball atop the charge. You sholdn't have to grab the ramrod in two hands and repeatedly jam it up and down to seat the ball.

Besides that, a BP rifle resonds to the same accuracy voodoo as does a modern smokless bolt action. There may be bedding issues. Bery common with break off breeches (hooked breech) is that the breechplug of the barrel is not square with the standing breech. Aslo if it has a barrel wedge it may not be correctly perpendicular with the stock. Both things under recoil can cause the barrel to do weird things, and weird things is not condusive to consistant accuracy.

Modern shotgun primers, fake BP and.or Minie' bullets are not a panacea to a rifle that won't shoot PRB's . What your friend should do is to read a couple books dedicated to BP ML accuracy or "How to do it, 1,2,3" books.

..................Buckshot

Bret4207
02-18-2006, 08:41 AM
FWIW- My CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle (54) with a tight patched Speer RB and 90 gr ffg shot many groups of 3 out of 5 touching at 100 measured yards. The guns at least 25 years old, maybe 30. I put a Williams or Lyman recv'r sight on and away we went. The ugly old thing, (I built froma kit), is a shooter, or at least was 'till I lent it out and got back a rusty barreled gun. Haven't shot for group since then , 15 years or so.

twotoescharlie
02-18-2006, 02:32 PM
a 54 cal. Lee R.E.A.L. would probly help regardless of the twist. I have had good luck with both fast and slow twist with the REAL boolit.

TTC

BCB
02-19-2006, 08:39 AM
I'm readin' them all as they get posted. I may just wait a few more days and then print the commemts. He won't be shooting the muzzle gun for a few days(?) since our weather is not so good and our muzzle seasons are done--I think. I see that the Lee moulds could be an option. Since they are inexpensive, he wouldn't be investing bunches of $$$$ to see if he may find the "magic bullet". Thanks...BCB

quigleysharps4570
03-11-2006, 12:42 AM
Use Moose Milk, 1 part water soluble machine oil, to 10-12 parts water.

Yep...I agree.

RugerFan
03-11-2006, 01:27 AM
See if he is using Bore Butter, or Wonderlube 1000. Any of the commercial yellow stuff. If so, throw it away. Use Moose Milk, 1 part water soluble machine oil, to 10-12 parts water.

What exactly are the pros and cons of moose milk vs Bore Butter. Please elaborate. (wouldn't you know I am well stocked with Bore Butter)

waksupi
03-11-2006, 01:34 AM
Bore Butter, and similar concoctions, are made of beeswax, and olive oil, with a little stinkumgoody thrown in. The olive oil, because of it's high flash point. The advertising says it will season a bore. Nope. Modern steel doesn't season. Cast iron, seasons. All the BB does in modern steel, is to build up a coating of beeswax. Think fouling. And if you ever try shooting it in cold weather, you will not be able to load more than maybe four or five rounds, before you find the ball stuck part way down the bore. I tried it in hot weather, and would have to wipe the bore every ten shots, at the most, to maintain accuracy. I also find it leaves smouldering patches. Not good, in dry woods, or grass.
Moose milk, on the other hand, maintains a steady bore condition, allowing you to shoot all day, with the same ease of loading, and accuracy. The good thing about it, you can make 11-12 gallons, for about $13.

jh45gun
03-11-2006, 03:04 AM
Depends on what your shooting round ball or conical. if it is conicals beeswax and some lube like bore butter mixed works well though I suspect that Crisco would work as well and a lot cheaper. If it is patched round ball I have to agree that the moose milk works well.

RugerFan
03-11-2006, 03:11 AM
Ok, Thanks. Looks I need to switch.

carpetman
03-11-2006, 11:48 AM
Ruger Fan---Moose Milk can be used to feed either sex moose calves--cows or bulls. Bore butter can be used for male piglets only. OOOOppppppppsss that would be boar butter. Guess bore butter would be used on either sex too if you found them dull and uninteresting.

RugerFan
03-11-2006, 12:48 PM
Ruger Fan---Moose Milk can be used to feed either sex moose calves--cows or bulls. Bore butter can be used for male piglets only. OOOOppppppppsss that would be boar butter. Guess bore butter would be used on either sex too if you found them dull and uninteresting.

I expected your barn yard animal comments to be more along the lines of sheep. Branching out are you? :D

carpetman
03-11-2006, 12:52 PM
Ruger Fan--Moose a barnyard animal????

RugerFan
03-11-2006, 01:41 PM
Ruger Fan--Moose a barnyard animal????
I was refering to your comment on male piglets....um nevermind.

versifier
03-11-2006, 11:47 PM
We had moose in the barnyard regularly when one of the mares was in heat. :) If the weather was loud enough to cover the sound of the shots in the middle of the night, we had them in the freezer, too. [smilie=1:
I like the T/C products (Bore Butter and WonderLube 1000) with MaxiBalls. Crisco works, but it leaves a lot more fouling in my rifles with the Pyrodex RS that I use. I prefer to use a T/C sabot loaded with a .45cal Lee 228gr HP (#90489) sized to .451 for deer hunting as it's very accurate and a quick, easy reload. (Not that a deer has ever needed a second shot from the .54, even if there was time to do it, but I have always been ready.) ;-)