Reloading manuals-cast bullets

[joeb33050]

Some time back I attempted to write an article about Spotting Scopes, and had to give it up because there are just too many brands/models of spotting scopes available out there.

I suspect that there are too many powders out there, that many are not needed 99.9% of the time, and that this powder proliferation and its speed make it hard to impossible to publish up-to-date reloading manuals covering all available powders.

I believe that accuracy is easily found with the (original) IMR and Hercules powders, and that seldom is there an advantage to any other powders with cast bullets.

14.5/IMR 4227 in 32/40 or 30/30 was the accurate load for years. Later A#9 showed up, and I use it. However, I've never been able to demonstrate that A#9 is more accurate in my 30/30 bench gun than is IMR 4227.

Thus, I think that the powder sellers are what makes the reloading manuals not up to date, and that those searching for accuracy from "magic" powders are destined to disappointment.
joe b.

[Echo]

Joeb, I agree, although my level of expertise doesn't approach yours. The only 'modern' powder in my magazine id 5744, and that is only because I bought a bunch of stuff from a chum who was leaving town. Bullseye, Unique, 2400, 296, 4227, 820, 4895, Bl-C2, 795, and 3100 should take care of any of my needs (or anyone else's, IMHO), and they are all older formulations.

[EOD3]

OTOH, Optimum performance enters the equation. Each cartridge geometry and caliber will (maybe) give it's "best" performance with a similar but different powder. For instance, the optimum powder for the .308 Winchester will not be the optimum powder for the .243 Winchester. The powder that produces the greatest area under the burn curve which does not exceed the maximum pressure will give the greatest velocity with the least pressure.

Does the extra 50 fps amount to a hill of beans, probably not.

Just stirring the pot [smilie=1:

YMMV

[BD]

I think I would generally agree in regard to cast boolits. However, there have been some good additions on the slower end of the burn rate charts for the higher velocity bottle neck cartridges.

I also think that a lot of the "new" powders are the result of powders produced in other parts of the world becoming available here, often through licensing arrangements with US firms.

BD

[Firebird]

Now that Hodgdon has bought IMR and has the distribution rights to Winchester powders, some of the true powder duplication is going to go away, though it probably will take some time. After all, no need for having both IMR 4831 and H4831, or W231 and HP38, or Win 296 and H110, etc. These powders are, and always have been, exact duplicates of each other. Any differences in the manuals were the result of testing different lots, not that the powders were intended to be different.
There are going to be some hard decisions for Hodgdon to make as to which of the powders will be disappearing . Drop a Winchester powder and Olin may get upset and take back the distribution rights, or the agreement may be worded that Hodgdon CAN'T drop any Winchester powders.. Drop a popular IMR powder in favor of keeping the Hodgdon version and some reloaders may give some competitiors powder a try instead of just switching to the Hodgdon version resulting in lost sales to Hodgdon. Drop the Hodgdon version of a powder and you start losing your own brand recognition, not something desirable for any company. Keep all the different powders going, and drive up your own costs, resulting in higher prices and being less competitive.

[swheeler]

After all, no need for having both IMR 4831 and H4831, or W231 and HP38, or Win 296 and H110, etc. These powders are, and always have been, exact duplicates of each other.
I don't think IMR 4831 and H4831 are exact duplicates of each other.

[mooman76]

After all, no need for having both IMR 4831 and H4831, or W231 and HP38, or Win 296 and H110, etc. These powders are, and always have been, exact duplicates of each other.
I don't think IMR 4831 and H4831 are exact duplicates of each other.

No they aren't but H4198 and IMR4198 are the same.

[Bent Ramrod]

Sometimes there's a legitimate difference in accuracy from an individual rifle. I find Vitavouri 130 and 133 seem a little more accurate than 4227 in my rebuilt Krag. Sometimes it's something like easier metering; i.e., Reloder 7 vs. 4198. And sometimes it's worth developing a load if the powder is less expensive than the old standby.

However, there certainly does not appear to be a burning rate that isn't covered over and over again by the offerings of the various companies.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Well, I have been loading my own for a long time, about 1970 I bought 50# of surplus 4831 and wore out 3 Douglas 25/06 BBL's shooting jack rabbits. I also used up a couple of 300
Winnie's and a 338 and so on. Point being I could shoot that powder in about all the rifles I was shooting, I did use 4198 and 4895 in the 30/30 and 45/70, and I shot 2400 in my 357's and 44mags and 45 colts. I used red dot in my 45apc and shotguns.

My point being I could load a lot of guns with a few powders and get good accuracy and good clean kills on game.
So 5 powders that I knew. I'm not saying you can't do better with various powders in your gun combo's and target shooting is an exacting game of accuracy.

I have used a lot of different powders trying to find ones that can be used for different caliber guns for better performance, I have found a couple that I like and now keep a supply of them also. I don't even bother with foreign suppliers, they come and go.:[smilie=1:

IMHO, I want a few powders to "do it all" that I can afford to keep enough of , so if the supply goes away, I don't have to go scrounging for something that works in my BFR/BFP[smilie=1

Just my spin, and why. I read lots of posts by people saying they have got to run down and buy another pound of such and such, not me, and as I said, just my opinion. That doesn't mean anyone is wrong in the way they go at this game. Best point is Have Fun.:bigsmyl2:

[Bret4207]

HOLY CRAP!!!! You and I actually agree on something for once Joe. I think I just saw a pig fly by!!! I agree that for cast most loading can be handled with Bullseye, Unique, 4227, RedDot, 2400, 3031, 4895. Some of those cross over, some don;t, some have duplicate uses and powders that perform in a similar manner from other makers. Ed Harris did and article in the Rifleman IIRC maybe 10-15 years ago where he talked about the minimum powder battery. I think he reduced it to maybe 3-5 powders. It can be done, especially with cast.

For jacketed I wouldn't want to be without RL 22 and Lil Gun anymore.

[AZ-Stew]

I think one's view of the number of powders needed depends a lot on the number of different cartridges one loads. Burn rate is dictated by cartridge volume, bore diameter and bullet weight. If you only load .357 Mag, . 45 ACP and .300 Win Mag, you can probably get by with 3 powders. If you load everything between .32 S&W and 454 Casul, plus .22 hornet through .45-70, the powder list will necessarily grow.

Regards,

Stew

[swheeler]

I think one's view of the number of powders needed dedpends a lot on the number of different cartridges one loads. Burn rate is dictated by cartridge volume, bore diameter and bullet weight. If you only load .357 Mag, . 45 ACP and .300 Win Mag, you can probably get by with 3 powders. If you load everything between .32 S&W and 454 Casul, plus .22 hornet through .45-70, the powder list will necessarily grow.

Regards,

Stew

Stew; I think a lot just depends on how much a guy likes to experiment!

[atr]

I tend to agree,,,,
over the years I have tried many different powders and as a result I have
paired down my powder selections to just Unique, 2400, 4350, 748 and 4227
In a pinch I could probably get this down to 4350 and 2400

[MT Gianni]

I think one of the reasons for the many powders is the companies realizing that with Haz-Mat, OSHA, labor/utility/production costs, and NIMBY all real effects that US powder production could be gone in a heartbeat. For military purposes it is best to control your own production so many nations want to have their own development. Selling extra to reloaders is a natural extension.

[runfiverun]

i have just taken to thinking of powders in groups.
with cut-offs. like bullseye clays up to 231.
then 231 titegroup up to... same with rifle powders then try and have one of each group available.
the worst thing that could happen is you'd have to shoot some flgc's with them.

[softpoint]

One point I'd make from personal experience is that Hodgdon now says H414, and ww760 are one and the same, and thier online reloading data shows that is so. However, while developing an accuracy load for my XLR 30/30., I had gotten a good load using ww760. I ran out of 760, so , No problem , I have plenty of H414. It has been a favorite for a long time. Use the same amount for the same result, right? Nope. Groups were over twice the size with H414. With the same amount of powder,about 10, 5 shot groups fired. Now, I'm not saying the same level of accuracy couldn't be obtained with H414, just not with the same amount. Maybe just different lots? Ordered another jug of ww760 and the 30/30 is happy again.:coffeecom

[felix]

EVERY LOT IS A DIFFERENT POWDER. PERIOD, PERIOD, PERIOD. ... felix

[Bret4207]

EVERY LOT IS A DIFFERENT POWDER. PERIOD, PERIOD, PERIOD. ... felix

Very true and something I tend to forget. I guess the only consistent rule is that nothing is consistent. Each gun, each batch of alloy, each lot of primers or powder or brass all vary a bit.

[MtGun44]

My IMR4198 and H4198 are not the same.

The Winchester and Hodgdon powders were made by the same factory, so W231 and
HP38 and W296/H110 are the same. As far as I know there was no connection at all
between IMR powders and Hodgdon powders of the same number after the original
lot of 4831 was used up (and it was a LARGE lot). They had very similar burning rates,
but loads were significantly different, more than the lot to lot variation seen when
comparing W231 to HP38. How many times have we seen a gunmag article where
they get different results with W296 and H110. I always have to laugh.

I have it from personal discussions from the folks that know that the Win/Hodgdon powders
are as "the same" as they can make them - from the exact same factory.

AND - what felix said !!!!!! The w760 story makes sense if the second bottle of W760
came from the same lot as the first and the H414 was from a different lot.

If you get a REALLY favorite load, find some more of the same lot of powder and buy
it. OTOH, most rifles are not that picky.

Bill

[jlchucker]

The powders I use most are 3031, 748, AA5744, 2400, and Titegroup. Others that I keep on hand are 760, RL7, Red Dot, and Unique--the latter mostly for shotguns. I guess that if I had to thin that collection down, I could get by with 3031, 2400, and Unique.

[Char-Gar]

Joe, I hear you! When I started loading in 1958 there was Dupont (IMR), Hercules and Hodgdon sold Bl-C, H380 and 4831. I think that was it. I just never got joined the "powder of the month" club and still continue to use my old friends. They don't hold any suprises for me.

I have tried a few others, but never could find a reason to change. The only exception is WC872 which I use. There was not a similar available back then. There was some 50 cal machine gun powder (stick) on the market, but I never saw any of it for sale anywhere.

[BD]

At some point I purchased enough WC 852s, WC820, WC 1680, HP (surplus 231) and WC 860 to do everything I might NEED to do for the rest of my life.

In the meantime I buy a little of this, and a little of that, to do the things I WANT to do a little better. If I find something I really like, I'll buy an 8 pounder. I have some Varget, and I've burnt some Titegroup like that, but the five surplus powders would keep me going if need be.

I enjoy this whole business, and I'll keep messing about with different stuff while I can. There's plenty of folks doing this, and most of my bases are pretty well covered, so I feel free to putter about in the less popular nooks and crannies. If that involves buying a pound or two of something new or unusual, so be it.

In that vein, what'da all know about Lil' Gun?
BD

[Bret4207]

Lil Gun Works great in a variety of cartridges giving hi speeds and low pressures. It's very good on many of the smaller straight walled cases like the 357 and 32-20. I'm sure there are others with more experience with it than I have.

One powder I got a little excited about was Trail Boss. I thought we might finally have a smokeless powder that duplicated black like the old "Bulk" powder. Such is not the case and I've heard little good about Trail Boss outside the "low and slow" CASS type loads.