PDA

View Full Version : How far?



Bigjohn
04-05-2009, 08:21 PM
I made a mistake yesterday; one that could have had dire consequences. During a rifle match I had an A.D. (Accidental Discharge).

My Pedersoli "SHARPS" 1874 in .45/70 has a double set trigger which has NEVER been adjusted since I bought the rifle. Very light when set but not measured yet.

I had just loaded the 11 round of the course of fire, cocked the hammer, set the rear trigger and was bringing the rifle to the shoulder when it discharged. I beleive that I may have bumped the trigger while raising it to the shoulder.

The muzzle was approximately 35/40 degrees above horizontal at the time of discharge.

Load details are Winchester cases, Federal 215 Large Rifle Magnum primers, 65grs (vol.) of GOEX 2ffg powder, one milk carton wad behind a homecast LEE 459-500-2R boolit lubed with MONTANA Arms BP lube. These loads do about 1000/1100fps from this tube (Barrel).

The platform I was on at the time of discharge is 10 feet below the surrounding ground level as we shoot in a disused quarry. The earth berm backstop, which sits on ground level adds an extra 10 feet of safety.

My concern is that with the angle on the muzzle at the moment of discharge the boolit CLEARED the top of the earth berm and went where??

Is there any way of calculating how far this may have travelled? I wish to put my mind at rest even tho the area it would have passed over is uninhabited for well over a mile.

John

kycrawler
04-05-2009, 08:31 PM
your looking at an impact area potentially a few mles long without knowing the actual angle of the rifle it would be hard to calculate

why not cock the rifle and set the trigger when you have the rifle shouldered and rough aimed ? would eliminate the problem you had

compass will
04-05-2009, 08:33 PM
I was reading about the 45-70 testing that the US army was doing in NJ back in the 45-70 days. I think they said at 1000 yards, the boolit was going through oak barrels, but the angle the boolit was passing through the wood was around 30deg?

Bigjohn
04-05-2009, 08:36 PM
I will be looking at all of my procedures for shooting this match with this rifle before the next event. Included will be an assessment of the trigger weight.

After being the Secretary of this club for many years, I have so many personal jobs to catch up with and this is one of them.

One advantage is that there is a forest behind our backstop and the chance of the wayward boolit making through that are slim.

John

uncle joe
04-05-2009, 08:36 PM
I think I have seen some software that will calculate the trajectory if you know enough of the variables. Just search for ballistic software and you should find something online and free.

ps don't feel to bad this has happend to a lot of us. if you were in the boonies and nothing around for a couple of miles you should be ok.

pps
the greatest distance it would travel would be if the tube was at a 45 degree angle so you could figure that and look everywhere between. Be glad your not like one of my buddies that was in the army, when they had this happen with a tank practice round for a sabot. When they lost one of these they had to go find it. It's basically a 3 foot lawn dart made of aluminium, and would travel SEVERAL miles.

docone31
04-05-2009, 08:41 PM
Big John, I believe even if you had a way to calculate you would still worry. I may be sorely mistaken in this, but, I believe we who have come this far, operate on ethics that surpass what is considered reasonable. We expect perfection in safety, we allow no room for even a slight misstep.
In the '80s, I did almost the same thing. Almost. The difference was, I had no backdrop. I just thought I did.
I had been field walking with my rifle. I had just tried .309 jacketed bullets in my -06. I found a target, and let one go. I had been firing at that spot for a long time before then. I did not realize someone had started land clearing.
Well, there is no way I could have hit anything, but the demons were there! I walked the distance my projectile could have travelled, in all directions. I found no evidence of any impact. That was not enough for me. It did not matter there was no one there, it did not matter there were no homes, buildings, equipment. I worried for months.
I have never drawn blood firing any firearm. Unless someone else's life were at stake, I doubt I would ever draw blood in the future. I shoot paper.
After all these years, I still remember that one mis shot. It sounds like you feel the same responsibility as I do. I get pretty good at shooting, but, I demand perfection on where my shot ends up. I accept no compromise.
I doubt very much you hit anything. IF you did, I bet it wouldn't have taken long to find out.
Now you get to calculate.
I bet, you never find the boolitt, even with absolute calculations and a metal detector.
I definately respect your ethics, and your expectations of yourself. I allow no quarter myself. I taught my wife the same way.
Good to know you.

montana_charlie
04-05-2009, 08:46 PM
I will be looking at all of my procedures for shooting this match with this rifle before the next event. Included will be an assessment of the trigger weight.
The weight is what it is, and can't be adjusted. Only trigger travel can be changed, and that is done with the long screw between the triggers (screw #3 in the manual).
Backing it out (counterclockwise) increases travel.

CM

Bigjohn
04-05-2009, 09:01 PM
I don't know any shooter who are not willing to accept responsiblity for their actions and mishaps. I know the area behind our range very well as I often walk it to check for range escapees and to keep and eye on what is happening behind us.

Down range is virtually clear of housing. Immediately behind us is a Pinus Radiata Planation, then pasture, then a open cut mine, then more pasture. This extends for several miles. There are however two roads which cross this area; the first is 800 metres away, shielded by the forest and rarely used.

This is one of the reasons we have over thirty feet of backstop berm.

As per club rules, the A. D. finished my days shooting so I drove the side road to have a look around, all was well.

John

oneokie
04-05-2009, 09:09 PM
John, some useful information here;

http://members.tripod.com/%7Epowderburns/sharps.html

DGV
04-05-2009, 09:44 PM
3000+ yards easily

jrquigley
04-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Hello, John

I just joined the forum and this is my first post. Anyway, if we look to Hatcher's Notebook, we find the maximum range of the .45-70 500 grain RN lead bullet as loaded for the US military is about 3500 yards.

This maximum range is about 20% of the vacuum range of the bullet. Because air resistance has such a significant effect on the trajectory of small arms projectiles, the maximuum range is greatly shortened over what it would be in a vacuum. Also, the maximum range of a small arms projectile is most often realized at launch angles of between 29 and 35 degrees, again because of the effect of air resistance.

Thanks for your ethics!

Echo
04-06-2009, 01:56 AM
the greatest distance it would travel would be if the tube was at a 45 degree angle .

Theoretically, in a vacuum, but we don't shoot in a vacuum - we shoot at the bottom of a sea of atmosphere, and the air starts acting to slow down the bullet as soon as it leaves the barrel. Army experiments showed that maximum range was found generally with an elevation of around 30 degrees, not only with 45-70's but 30-06, too. Therefore, if BigJohn was holding the rifle at 35-40 degrees when he had the AD, the bullet didn't go quite the maximum range - whatever that is.

Rodfac
04-06-2009, 08:42 AM
Get a copy of of Hatcher's Notebook. In it he has a short treatise entitled, "How far will my gun shoot?" As as I recall, he found that an angle of approximately 30 degrees gave the longest range, and that a 150 gr spitzer traveled about 3000 yards. My guess is that much less aerodynamically shaped .45 bullet would travel far less. One of my sons has my copy or I'd look it up as well. In another discussion, he explains Springfield's attempts to find out how high the new .30-06 will shoot, using machine guns and a raft out in a lake. The decending bullets, fired vertically, barely dented the decking of the raft. The time of flight was right at one minute if memory serves...and that with a 150 gr spitzer. HTH's Rodfac

powderburnerr
04-06-2009, 10:06 AM
3660 max yards in the sandy hook tests,,, 500 gn bullet 70 gns powder max angle of elevation15 degrees....if I remember correctly. if your angle is more it wont travel as far ..Dean

Larry Gibson
04-06-2009, 12:43 PM
The lesson learned here is not to set the trigger until after the rifle is shouldered and leveled on the target.

Larry Gibson

Bladebu1
04-06-2009, 04:06 PM
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

if you know all the fact this will tell you what the drop is

Bigjohn
04-06-2009, 07:27 PM
I did a road check yesterday; I have 5 kilometres to the first house in line with our range. One metre equates to 39" so that is over 5 miles of clear drop zone.

I have for most of my shooting life, been concerned about where the projectile is likely to end up if something goes wrong with a shot. And yes the lesson learned in this case is shoulder the rifle and then set the trigger. It is the only rifle I have with a double set trigger and has been used very little.

So other than trees, dirt or the odd fence post there is not much down range it could have hit.

Someone in the future may find it and think they have found and artillery projectile. [smilie=1:

John

Firebird
04-06-2009, 09:09 PM
I agree with Larry, a set trigger should never be set until the muzzle is already on target. And if you dismount the rifle without firing after the trigger is set, release the set of the trigger while the rifle is still pointing in a safe direction. Basic safety rule for all set triggers.

Tokarev
04-06-2009, 09:56 PM
5 km is only about 3-3 1/2 miles.

Bigjohn
04-06-2009, 11:42 PM
5 km is only about 3-3 1/2 miles.

OOPS! Where did I put that dam^ slide rule.:mrgreen:

Still trying to do the calc's (maths; not my strong point), but the good news is there is nothing in the media.

When I look back on this; it was a case of the wrong rifle for that type of match (Timed event) when the rifle and set trigger should have been used for a down the line, crossed sticks or benchrest event. It would have been better if I had taken the .303" British; two stage trigger. I was making do with what I had bought on the day.

John

Bigjohn
04-06-2009, 11:45 PM
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html

if you know all the fact this will tell you what the drop is


Punched in the figures but still a lot of work to do.

Good site; must visit again when I have more time.

John

Bigjohn
04-06-2009, 11:51 PM
Hello, John

I just joined the forum and this is my first post. Anyway, if we look to Hatcher's Notebook, we find the maximum range of the .45-70 500 grain RN lead bullet as loaded for the US military is about 3500 yards.

This maximum range is about 20% of the vacuum range of the bullet. Because air resistance has such a significant effect on the trajectory of small arms projectiles, the maximuum range is greatly shortened over what it would be in a vacuum. Also, the maximum range of a small arms projectile is most often realized at launch angles of between 29 and 35 degrees, again because of the effect of air resistance.

Thanks for your ethics!

Welcome to the forum, hope you learn a lot here.

We all try our hardest to shoot safely as possible and while at the time of the incident it was a big shock to me, the matter is now in the past and hopefully never repeated.

While I believe this boolit came back to earth safely; I seek the answers I am seeking to increase my knowledge.

John

Recluse
04-07-2009, 12:09 AM
We all try our hardest to shoot safely as possible and while at the time of the incident it was a big shock to me, the matter is now in the past and hopefully never repeated.
John

They say there are two kinds of shooters--those who have had an AD, and those are going to have an AD.

I would add that if one shoots enough rounds on a regular basis, week after week, month after month, year after year, it is almost inevitable that you will experience an AD.

Virtually every competitive shooter and every serious hunter I know admits to having had an AD. Interestingly enough, almost all of them say they've only had ONE--and it scared the stink right out of their crack.

I fall in that category. Had one AD (and when I was in law enforcement of all places) and it shook me for over a week. All I could think of was every military instructor and firearms instructor and serious gun friend I've ever had constantly preaching about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

In my case, the AD was at my desk, in my office--and my gun was pointed at my big file drawer that was packed with our "Wanted by" files and posters. More than a few bad guys got drilled--least ways, the ones at the front of the file did. [smilie=1:

That was over twenty years ago, and it still rattles me from time to time whenever I think about it. They also say a little fear, along with a little humility, is good for the soul. I agree.

:coffee:

Bigjohn
04-07-2009, 12:12 AM
They say there are two kinds of shooters--those who have had an AD, and those are going to have an AD.

I would add that if one shoots enough rounds on a regular basis, week after week, month after month, year after year, it is almost inevitable that you will experience an AD.

Virtually every competitive shooter and every serious hunter I know admits to having had an AD. Interestingly enough, almost all of them say they've only had ONE--and it scared the stink right out of their crack.

I fall in that category. Had one AD (and when I was in law enforcement of all places) and it shook me for over a week. All I could think of was every military instructor and firearms instructor and serious gun friend I've ever had constantly preaching about keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

In my case, the AD was at my desk, in my office--and my gun was pointed at my big file drawer that was packed with our "Wanted by" files and posters. More than a few bad guys got drilled--least ways, the ones at the front of the file did. [smilie=1:

That was over twenty years ago, and it still rattles me from time to time whenever I think about it. They also say a little fear, along with a little humility, is good for the soul. I agree.

:coffee:

I agree, well and truly agree,

John

wills
04-07-2009, 12:44 AM
.45-70 at Two Miles:
The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook02.htm

Echo
04-07-2009, 12:56 AM
Conversion of kilometers to miles has a constant of .621, IIRC. Five-eighths is close enough for govt work...

sheepdog
04-07-2009, 02:00 PM
This is why you point guns at the ground rather then the air. No excuses for firearms safety, no when peoples safeties at stake. Not to sound preachy but remember if we get sloppy the guns will get grabbed.

Bigjohn
04-09-2009, 07:56 PM
This is why you point guns at the ground rather then the air. No excuses for firearms safety, no when peoples safeties at stake. Not to sound preachy but remember if we get sloppy the guns will get grabbed.

Much has been learnt personally from this incident and I doubt it will ever be repeated.

John.

MT Gianni
04-09-2009, 11:49 PM
John Thank you for sharing this as it would be easy to keep to yourself. Your concerns and dilegence are inspiring to us all.