.22 Boolit Project ??

[Whitespider]

Ok, I’m getting close to starting my .22 Hornet/Bee boolit project. A Lyman #225438 mold is ‘in-hand’, gas checks should be on the way, still lookin’ for a .225 H&I, no Top Punch located yet but should be able to modify something I already have.

I’ve decided to begin with water-quenched WW metal and see how fast I can push them in these rifles (I haven’t tried water-dropping yet). I’ve done some searching here on the ‘water-drop’ technique, most of it I understand. But I’m a little confused ‘bout a couple things because of conflicting posts.

#1) I’ve read here that the ‘hardening’ isn’t instantaneous, but comments say it takes 3-days, 10-days, or even up to a month. So... (assuming WW alloy) how long can I expect it to take for the ‘hardening’ to set-in to a usable degree? How long to maximum hardness?
#2) I’ve read here that sizing a water-dropped boolit will actually soften it, and as I understand the hardening process that makes perfect sense. I’m gonna need to run these boolits through a sizing die to apply the gas checks, and I’ve also read here that if the sizing is done before the hardening process starts, boolits will still ‘harden-up’. But again, conflicting posts say this should be done within just a couple hours, 12-hours, or even up to 36-hours. So again... how quickly will I need to do the sizing?

Guys, I sure appreciate the past answers you’ve provided, and patients you show to this guy that’s still learnin’ as he goes!!

[Whitespider]

Bump for answers

[35remington]

First, regarding the 225438.....if you're contemplating wheelweight usage, and are casting outside in normal conditions, fillout is hard to obtain with just straight wheelweights alone. The bullet has small bands and grooves and wheelweights produce more rejects than good bullets.

Only if the mould is and can be maintained in the hot, hot range, which is difficult to do when casting outdoors at a normal rate, can mould temp be kept high enough to give mostly good bullets. If you cannot replicate these conditions better get some more tin outta your stash or you're wasting your time.

I find the bullets after quenching are much harder after a day has passed. Whether the sizing effort is of any moment depends upon how you're sizing. In a Lee push through sizer the hardest bullets can be processed with ease as press leverage is more than ample. With a Lyman 450 and larger, hard bullets, sizing can be a near bitch. While the bands may be softened, the rest of the bullet is still hard, and that's the main factor in being able to be shot at the higher velocities.

Were I sizing them, and if using a lubesizer with questionable leverage, I'd do it within a couple of hours, given that overnight the bullets test substantially harder. However, .22 bullets aren't as difficult to size as a hard 45-70 bullet.

[mooman76]

The hardening proccess is instantaneous for the most part. It will continue to harden so I am told. I do not have a hardness tester so I cannot atest to the latter half but water drop some and try to scratch it with your fingernail and you will see. Lee has stated in his book that only the outer part of the bullet hardens but someone here said he tested some bullets at verious depths and it was not just on the surface even though he didn't go as deep as half way through so that is still up in the air depending who you believe. Personally if someone here says he tested water dropped bullets and they are hardened through then I tend to want to believe him until I know better or someone else can say different. If you want to make sure size your bullets and then oven treat them with water dropping. If you are lucky your mould will drop good bullets that don't need sizing. Also since you are GCing the bullets you should be able to push them pretty hard even without water dropping.

[GabbyM]

I don't Worry much over the softening effect of sizing. But if you do and you want to try the size before they cure routine. I'd say size them the same day you cast them. I prefer to oven heat treat rifle bullets anyway. You could size them heat treat, allow to harden then back through the sizer to seat gas checks and lube. But I think all that is just make work.

What I have found helps with these little boolits is to allow them to harden up before lubri-sizing to avoid distorting the bullet in the operation. Doesn't take much to smoosh a 22.

One hard lesson I learned this year. 425 degrees will melt the tin out of 22 bullets if left 45 minutes in the oven. Had a phone call and just figured they'd be OK. But nooo. Now it's 15 minutes in oven then water bath.

Another option for you would be to add a bit of tin to the WW metal and air cool. Most important is to just make some up and go shooting.

Oh yes the hardening takes about two days to kick in and follows a curve after that. Some variables like arsenic content come to play.

In sumation. If you do it like I do you'll decide on water drop or oven heat treat. Wait for them to harden for two or three days. Lubri-size gas check load and shoot. If your barrel leads then maybe you should have let them cure for two weeks. But why worry.

[454PB]

I first must say I've never heat treated boolits that small, but I've done considerable experimentation in both heat treating and quenching from the hot mould. I agree that WW alloy will probably require some added tin in a boolit this small for good casting. I think mooman76 is refering to my testing done at various depths in quenched boolits. Yes, they harden deeper than the surface, I've filed 1/3 through the diameter and found it the same hardness as the surface. In addition, I ran some long term testing to see how the hardening process progresses.

Additional hardness (comparing quenched boolits to the same ones dropped on a towel and air cooled) begins within about 12 hours and continues for about 30 days. It then stabilizes, and within 6 months begins to decline. None of my test samples have yet returned to the same hardness as the air cooled samples, and this project was begun over two years ago.

My personal practice is to size quenched boolits the same day they are cast. I have no proof that it is neccessary, since I've done no test to verify. I can tell you that if they are sized 24 hours latter, there is a noticable increase in sizing effort.

Here's something of interest I found the other day. Back in 1983, I cast up about 80 pounds of Lyman 454424 boolits. One of the containers with casting info note included is still stored under my casting bench. These were cast of WW alloy, water quenched, and left unsized. I did a hardness test, and they are still at BHN 16. The other boolits cast in this session were air cooled, and test at 12 BHN. Back in 1983 I didn't own a hardness tester, but it would be interesting to know what the quenched boolits hardness was originally. From current tests, I've found WW alloy quench hardens to about 28 BHN when tested a month after casting.

[Whitespider]

Great, thanks, that clears up a lot of confusion.

Yep, the first thought that crossed my mind when I saw that tiny cavity was, “how am I gonna keep enough heat in that mold?” I’ve got some small stashes of tin, Lino and some other hard alloy from recovered commercial cast that I can use to ‘richen’ my WW’s, just don’t want to use all up if I don’t have to.

[mooman76]

Something to keep in mind for those who oven heat their bullets and then water drop. Pre heat your oven before starting and keep in mind ovens very in temp. Not just by being off but also the thermostat may very 50 or even 75 degrees between turning on and off the heat. A better oven won't very as much but a cheper or older one mey vary a lot. I didn't think this ahead and half melted my first batch.

[leadman]

If you oven heat I would recommend you get your oven up to about 400', then put a couple boolits on a tray and leve them for 15 minutes. If they haven't melted or sagged, up the temp by 25' and watch for 15 minutes. Do this until the boolits melt or sag. Back the temp down by 25' and use to oven treat your boolits. This will overcome a thermostat that may be off.

I cast for my 22 K-Hornet and use WW with a little linotype in it until it casts good. I water drop and size within a couple days. My normal load is 2,600 fps with excellent acurracy and no leading. I tried straight lino, but found it made burger out of anything alive I shot up to about 15 pounds.

[w30wcf]

Whitespider,

Based on my experience with 2,700 f.p.s. cast bullet loads in my .22 Hornet,
air cooled w.w.+2% bullets work very well. No heat treating required.:-D The reason is due to the low sectional density of the .45 gr. .22 bullet.

I use both the 225438 in single and double cavity molds and the NEI 45 gr.

Based on my experience with my double cavity 225438, this is what has worked for me:
1.) add 2% tin to your w.w.
2.) preheat your mold on a hot plate or in a toaster oven (my preference - 450F)
3.) cast with one cavity only by positioning the sprue plate so you are filling that cavity with about 1/3 of the sprue hole on the side of the bullet.
4.) cast as fast as the sprue solidifies (about 3 seconds or less) That will keep the mold up to temp.

Ideally having a new sprue plate made with .062-.07" sprue holes is the .22 cast bullet answer. I can make 300+ match grade .22 bullets/ hr with my single cavity 225438 that has been retrofitted with a sprue plate with the small sprue hole.:mrgreen:
I need to have a plate made for my 2 cavity 225438....one of my future projects......


Have fun.
w30wcf

[crowbeaner]

I use the Lyman 225415 and a mix of lino and Taracorp 311 for those little bitty boolits. I let them sit for at least a week before sizing. Be very very careful; install the gaschecks first and then size/lube for best results. Keeping heat in the mould is easy; cast 20, dip the bottom of the mould into the melt for 30 seconds, and keep casting. After breakin, if you cast fast enough, it will make good boolits and stay up to temp better. I ladle pour mine because I learned that way. Little boolits are far harder to cast good ones than great big ones due to the minimal amount of lead rushing into the cavities; hence the ladle because the opening is about 3x the size of the pour spout. Hope this helps. CB.

[trevj]

w30wcf,

Could you explain what's the reason for the smaller sprue plate holes, please?

Just to keep the heat "in"? Easier cut-off?

Cheers
Trev

[JIMinPHX]

I've used a Lyman 225415 & Lee Bator in a .223. The Bator shot better. I was using a lead mix that is pretty close to WW + 2% tin. I ran my pot around 720 degrees & had about a 10% reject rate for poorly formed boolits.

The Bators shot well up to about 2,000fps air cooled & 2400fps water dropped. They shot at 3,000fps with no leading but terrible accuracy. I was using Moly lube. They were hard enough to shoot the morning after casting. I was still able to size them days, weeks & even months later, but I was only sizing just a cat's whisker under the raw cast diameter.

shooting either boolit without a gas check gave terrible accuracy.

Hollow pointing the Bators seemed to improve accuracy slightly. It changed terminal performance dramatically.

Keep the pace up when casting those small boolits. The molds cool off pretty quick if you don't. I sometimes even pour the extra that is left in the ladle over the mold & let it run back into the pot to help keep the mold temperature up. I preheat by dipping the mold in the melt for about 30 seconds, then try to cast a set. If they don't fill out, I dip for another 20 seconds, then go back & try another set, etc, etc. Sometimes it takes a little while to get the first good set. Once you do, get into a groove & keep things moving.

[w30wcf]

w30wcf,
Could you explain what's the reason for the smaller sprue plate holes, please?
Just to keep the heat "in"? Easier cut-off?
Cheers
Trev

Trevj,
The smaller sprue hole allows one to cast much faster since with the small sprue hole the alloy sets up much quicker due to the much smaller area. This keeps the mold up to temp allowing for very good bullets to be made with every cast. And as you said...easier cut off.

w30wcf

[felix]

Older the heat treated boolits are, the better they shoot. When a particular lot is proven to be great, like a good home made wine, put aside for shooting/drinking 5 or more years later. Groups will be cut in half. No joke. ... felix

[trevj]

Trevj,
The smaller sprue hole allows one to cast much faster since with the small sprue hole the alloy sets up much quicker due to the much smaller area. This keeps the mold up to temp allowing for very good bullets to be made with every cast. And as you said...easier cut off.

w30wcf

Thanks! I'll have to look at doing up a couple sprue plates then. I suppose a guy could go thicker as well?

I have a bottom pour Saeco pot. I just finished up a thermocouple temp probe, that I have not yet tried in the lead, but worked OK testing on the stove element, and in boiling water.

FWIW, the temp probe cost me all of $9. It is a cheap, Chinese made multimeter, that has a temperature reading option, programmed for a K type thermocouple, a lightweight version of which, is included. I dug up a short section of heavy wall, 1/4"OD stainless tubing, crimped the thermocouple end into the end of the tube, and had my friendly neighborhood TIG welder run a real fast bead across the end of the works to seal it all up.

Gonna see how it works next weekend. Got plans for this weekend.

For the guys using bottom pour pots.

Do you let the alloy dribble/flow into the mold, or do you allow the pot pressure to force the alloy in (as in, sprue plate against the nozzle)?

Looking at jewelery casting practice, centrifugal casting is the norm, rather than the exception, to cut down on rejects. Just wondering if pressure feeding the alloy into the mold would be of value. Pretty sure I can find some high temperature seal material that would cut down on the dribbles and squirts that would result from a bad seal... Hmmm.... Gotta try it when I get up and running again.

Cheers
Trev

[georgewxxx]

The one thing no one has mentioned yet is his choice of sizing die. .223 or .224 in a hornet would be a better size. I've run tests on 22 hornet, .222 & .223Rem., 218 Bee, using 4 different sizing dies, .222, .223, .224, & .225. A couple guns prefer .222 but most will shoot better with .223 or .224. A .222 is almost next to impossible to get anymore unless you have one custom made. In all my trials, the faster you drive a boolit, the smaller in diameter you want to size them. I believe the same holds true in larger calibers. I've driven wheel weight 22 cal boolits up to 2500fps with "NO" leading and I now guys like Beagle have gone faster yet in certain applications....Geo

[felix]

The sizing choice is dependent on making a zero clearance for the entire boolit travel. In other words, obturation of the boolit must be maintained throughout. ... felix

[w30wcf]

Trev,
With the small sprue holes in the .22 plate, contact with the spout is a must.
I use spout contact with most of my molds, but there are a few that I drop pour.
Best thing to do is to try both methods to see which one works better for a particular mold.

w30wcf

[runfiverun]

i have found the direct fit and slow powder to be quite effective in cals as big as 358 win,and 8mm mauser with good bbls.

[Pat I.]

This past Monday I cast at 2:00 PM, put them in the toaster oven set at 440 degrees at 3:30 for an hour, sized and lubed them the next morning at 8:00 AM, and was at the range shooting them at 2650 fps at 11. BNH in the low 30s.

The mould quenched bullets I cast yesterday afternoon are around 10 on the Saeco scale this morning which correlates to about 20 BNH. You don't have to wait forever to shoot HTed bullets and sizing after HTing doesn't hurt anything. Give them an or so hour to get the HT process moving along and any time after that is fine. I wait overnight myself.

There's more BS involved with HTing than any other subject I know and there's about a snow balls chance in hell that I'm going to wait 5 years to shoot something I cast. The only thing you have to worry about with HTed bullets is that they're going to come out of the die bigger than a non treated one. To hit the .3095 I want for my throat with oven treated bullets I have to use a .308 Lee push through die that's had a few lap coated bullets run through it so I hit that diameter. Aged WW come out of the die at .3085.

[trevj]

Trev,
With the small sprue holes in the .22 plate, contact with the spout is a must.
I use spout contact with most of my molds, but there are a few that I drop pour.
Best thing to do is to try both methods to see which one works better for a particular mold.

w30wcf

Thanks w30wcf,

I'll try fiddling around with the stuff over the next couple days, I hope.

Just got a 225107 single in the mail, found a 225415 single at the a gunshow this weekend, minus it's sprue plate, and have a 225438 coming in the mail!

Cheers
Trev

[DLCTEX]

I do not use contact with my bottom pour for the 22 molds (Bator and Lyman 46 gr.). I do run the pot hotter and preheat the mold by dunking in the melt, then casting fast. I use Bullplate lube which allows me to cut the sprue early without problems. WDWW (no tin added) works for me. No problem sizing after waiting months with straight WW.

[trevj]

Dale,

How hot do you run your pot?

I did a short session with my bottom pour Saeco pot, and the temperature controller on it is able to hold withing about a 25-32 degrees C range. I just kept tweaking it up until stuff started working OK.

I suppose I should have looked at the conversions between C and F scales! The pot was casting good at about 600 deg C (1100 deg F!!!!) heyzooos!

I tried contact pouring but had issues getting access to the spout, from interference with the sprue plate screw. Best results were ...

- Place mold under spout, pour till a dime or better sized button formed.
-Withdraw mold, watch top of button suck down as solidified.
-Cut off sprue with gloved hand. Tilt mold over pot, to drop sprue button back in.
-Open mold, bump bullet out with tip of gloved hand.
-Use gloved hand to close sprue plate, close up mold, repeat.

About one every ten seconds or a bit more, once I got on my stride.

The mold was a 225107 single. Alloy was straight WW.

Gonna have to get some solder or other tin source and try this at realistic temperatures!

After I dumped back the obvious defects (most of the first half of the casting session) I brought about 275 bullets into the house to check out closer. Of those, I found voids or bad fillout on about 25 or so, so about 240-250 decent looking bullets.


Cheers
Trev

[threewheels]

what is the over all bullet length that you are using for the 223 with the Bator I can't find load data for it.