My 1860 colt repro is developing a problem?

[ARENAMAN]

I've begun having a problem with my 1860 COLT ARMY REPRO. It started with one cylinder, but today four out of six of the cylinders failed to fire. The cap didn't fire each time. I have noticed that it seems that the cylinder has begun to have room to move a little between the frame and the barrel assembly. It slides back and forth along the arbor a very small fraction of a millimeter. I think this is the problem that is causing the caps not to ignite when the hammer falls. The cylinder has moved forward from its right place against the frame enough to keep the hammer from hitting the cap firmly. I was really having a problem with that one cylinder that was the first to begin misfiring. I finally had to get a small piece of wood and place it in from of the bottom part of the cylinder and then use the loading arm and piston to press against the wood and the cylinder which firmly pressed the cylinder back against the frame. I pressed against a tree in order to put a little pressure on the end of the loading arm so that my hand would not be forward of the cylinder as I pulled the trigger. When I used this method to hold the cylinder back against the frame the stubborn cylinder fired the first time, and with the same cap I had been trying to cause to fire before.

Does anyone know why the cylinder is now a little loose in the frame? I have checked the wedge and it seems to be all the way in and it seems to be tightly in place. I even tried to tap it in a little more and this didn't help. The place at the bottom where the barrel assembly and the frame meet is well seated together. Is there a small shim or spacer that I may have lost in the last cleaning? Any advise would be appreciated.

I also had something else interesting happen today. An older gentleman and friend of mine gave to me an old can of FFG Holy Black, and I tried it out today. My friend told me that this powder was pretty old and might not fire very well. When I tried it today it barely made a pop in my gun and lobed a little fire ball out the end of the barrel. I think the fireball was my lube pill burning. I thought I had read that black powder didn't get old. Maybe not. I don’t think it was damp. My friend said he had stored it inside, and so did I.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Arenaman,

Is the Colt a Brass Frame or Steel, Brass Frames will stretch. There should not be a spacer. I was given a can of 3f from the 80's and it was hotter than the new Goex I have bought recently.

Sam :D

[ARENAMAN]

It is a steel framed pistol. I cycled the gun several times on the same caps when they would not fire. Still no fire. It didnt appear that the caps were given much of an impression after the hammer fell. The caps are going all they way onto the nipple. They fit well. I used No. 11 and No. 10 sized caps with the same result.

The wedge is just slightly cupped on the forward edge of the wedge, but only very slightly.

I looked and didn't see anything on the pistol like a spent cap in the way of the hammer. BUT, as i was taking the pistol apart for cleaning just after I made my initial post. a spent cap did fall out of the hammer area. I just assumed it was one of the last caps I fired, but it may have been there the whole time.

[Bent Ramrod]

Do you use pure lead for your loads? I had a Navy Arms 1860 Army I used to cast linotype/wheelweights into round balls to shoot in. That creeping loading lever had no problem squishing the harder balls into the chambers, but the wedge eventually could be driven all the way into the barrel lug (where it fit nice and tight) without tightening the barrel sufficiently on the arbor to keep the cylinder from moving back and forth. The problem was fixed with a new wedge. It never got so bad with mine that the caps refused to fire though.

You might check your present wedge using a piece of shim stock in the arbor at the forward edge of the slot. If the wedge goes short of home but pulls the barrel assembly tight against the cylinder again, you either need a new wedge or somebody to weld up the forward part of the arbor slot to tighten things up. A new wedge would be the best solution, but I understand that sometimes those arbor slots can wear or stretch.

[mooman76]

If you have used it awhile the nipples may have flattened out some. You can eplace them or you could adjust them out some and see if that helps.

[docone31]

Sometimes, a spent cap can go down in the hammer well.
It was customary, once fired, the pistol war raised backward behind the head. This allowed the cap to fall out. Once the hammer is pulled back, the cap can fall in. This will be a buffer between the hammer and the nipple.

[StarMetal]

Since it's a steel frame we will eliminate stretch there. So that leaves us with the wedge, the nipples, the front raised portion that in front of the cyliner where the pin comes through that spaces the cylinder from moving forward too far, and the face of the hammer. You already got advice on the nipples and wedge, so check the other two I mentioned for wear.

Joe

[curator]

I think you found the real problem. Spent caps fall down into the hammer slot, and are flattened with the next hammer fall. Often they are nearly invisable what with the fouling, grease, etc. You might experiment with different caps. Some stay on the nipples after firing.

Another issue is the wedge. Italian reproduction Colt revolvers have soft wedges. On the original revolvers back in the 1860s wedges were a common replacement part. However they were made with hardened "tool" steel. My original Pietta 1860 Colt wedge lasted exactly 48 shots before it was sufficiently battered to prevent me from accurately setting the barrel/cylinder gap at .005".

If your wedge is deformed and bottoms out in the wedge slot, it should be replaced. You can simply make a new one with better steel. If you look closely you will see that the wedge bears on the front of the cylinder pin slot and the back of the barrel slot. These surfaces need to be smooth and hard, and fit precisely.

The 1860 Army design puts a lot of strain on the wedge since it is the same size as the Navy .36 and firing a much heavier ball and powder charge.

[ARENAMAN]

I just placed six caps on the gun and tried it again and 5 out of six fired right off. I guess my problem was a spent cap in the way all along. The one cylinder that did not fire probably needs to have its nipple backed out a little. I used my finger this time to press the cylinder back against the frame and that stubborn cylinder fired when it wouldnt fire before. I am a newbie and have gotten around to getting a nipple wrench. I know i need one for proper cleaning so i will get one soon.

[docone31]

Yeah, a definate on the wedge!
This thread made me look at my Walker. I do have back and forth wiggle of the cylinder. The front of the cylinder also has wear on the front of the engrageing.
I removed the barrel assembly, removed the cylinder. The wedge had been flush with the screw on the right side of the wedge port.
I looked at the main cylinder/barrel support. On the front of the wedge cut out, the arbor hole had a "flower". I took the frame assembly to my shop, and peened the flower back in line. All of a sudden, the wedge only goes in 1/2 way and the "slop" in the cylinder is dramtically reduced. I do not have feeler guages so I do not know the gap now.
The wedge itself had no wear, it was the main arbor. Peening the "flower" back in place did take up the slack.
Another place to look.
Remove the barrel assembly, and look at the frame arbor. The square cut out should be square with no obtrusions. There is room in the barrel assembly to allow the "flower" to pass.
Just peen the edge back square.
Now, there is just wear movement, rather than real slop.
Since this pistol is new to me, and the manufacturer does not reccoment going over 30gns, I believe I just might adhere to that.
Right now, my wedge is 1/2 way in and out.

[GabbyM]

I'm not understanding how the wedge can set the barrel to cylinder gap.
Just measured my gap at .018” . Which became to large years ago. This on a steel frame Italian replica 1860. It's had thousands of rounds through it. I can't see how you could close up the gap with the wedge since the barrel and frame come together tight.

[docone31]

It does though.
Because mine is an open top, the barrel and frame try to flex apart with every shot. When I peened the wedge "flower" back down, it was on the forward portion of the cut out.
It is not so much when the pistol is static, it comes into play when the pistol is in motion.
Even though the two dowels in the frame which protrude into the barrel assembly are unchanged, the cylinder stopped moving back and forth. There is no forward guage for the cylinder.
With putting thousands of rounds through the pistol, how many were top end loads? I am willing to bet you fired reasonable loads, measured both for accuracy and power. The Walker is capable of 60gns of fffg! The one I have is designed to have the wedge replaced every 75rds with high capacity loads.
On your 1860, on the arbor that takes the wedge, is there "flowering" on the forward edge?
If there is, I would wonder if it would be possible to hammer/planish the metal down. The wedge should be 1/2 way through the opening, with even amounts on each side.
I got mine for a song, now I know why. It has been easy to fix though on mine.

[NickSS]

Sound to me like the spent cap was the problem with five of the chambers. I have had nipples that were a bit short cause me the trouble you are experiencing with the sixth chamber. I fixed it by installing new high quality nipples on all six chambers. By all means get a nipple wrench for your pistol. I take mine out every time I clean my revolvers. This allows me to get all the dirt out. I shoot several C&B revolvers including Colts, Remington, Rogers and Spencer, and Ruger. I always pull the nipples for cleaning.

[GabbyM]

Mine probably needs a new arbor and pin. Since when you slide the barrel on you can't see the front of the slot in the arbor through the pin slot in the barrel. So their's no way you'll pull that barrel in with the wedge pin.

I acquired this revolver 38 years ago. The powder flask I got with it measured 36 grains of fffg and that's mostly what it's run on. I've not shot it for years.

[John Taylor]

I have had a few over the years that have shot loose. I have machined new cylinder pins out of harder steel and wedges out of old car springs. That seems to fix the problems with the cylinder gap which should be between .004" and .006". I have had brass frames that the cylinder set back was the problem. Look at the picture and see how the cylinder sets back in the frame. This can be repaired with a steel plate soldered to the frame but may not be worth the trouble. One of the reason I will not buy a brass framed pistol.http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/1851cylindersetback.jpg

[StarMetal]

I'm not understanding how the wedge can set the barrel to cylinder gap.
Just measured my gap at .018” . Which became to large years ago. This on a steel frame Italian replica 1860. It's had thousands of rounds through it. I can't see how you could close up the gap with the wedge since the barrel and frame come together tight.

It does because although the frame and barrel meet there is nothing to stop the bore end of the barrel assembly to keep moving towards the cylinder if the wedge still has a, for lack of a better word, wedging area to go. In other words the wedge doesn't pull the barrel assembly evenly onto the frame.

Joe