Casting Problems HELP!!!

[steveb]

I just started casting and have casted around 800 boolits but only around 300 good ones(oor so I think??)Most are coming out with little pits or blemishes and I have tossed these back in the pot.It seems like im just wasting my time putting out alot more bad ones than good ones.I have been pre heating the Lee six cavity mould.I dont know what im doing wrong.Heres a pict of what the boolits look like with the small pits or blemishes..ANY INFO APPRECIATED....Steve
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/castbullets1.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/castbullets2.jpg

[steveb]

Maybe im just looking for perfection,but the 300 or so I saved look good???

[454PB]

What alloy? It looks like you have some dirty alloy, and also like you need to crank up the temperature some. With wheelweights, I like to run the temperature high enough to get light frosting of the boolits. From the pictures, it appears that the bands are not filling out completely.

Have you thoroughly cleaned the mould with a degreaser?

[Pilgrim]

Your alloy is still dirty. Flux it again, and maybe again after that. As long as you are getting "crud/dirt" on the melt surface, your alloy still needs cleaning. The imperfections you are seeing on the sides of your boolits are "crud", most likely dirt in the WW metal.

A second thing you might do while the pot is heating up so you can flux it again, is to clean your mould. One of the things I use is Carb & Choke cleaner, or Brake Cleaner. Spray the stuff on the mould faces, then scrub it with a CLEAN toothbrush (or something similar), and then wash the mould faces again with the solvent. With aluminum moulds I usually have more luck if I somke them, or use some sort of mould release. It helps with fill out as it delays the melt cooling in the cavity for just a smidgeon (acts like an insulator), and it often helps with the boolits release out of the mould as well. Put the mould on top of the pot as the alloy is heating up and after you flux it clean, you should be getting good boolits almost immediately. FWIW....Pilgrim

[Marc2]

Try smoking the mold.

Marc

[sundog]

Steve, what are you using for a pot? New or used? If it's used, did you clean it before making a run? btw, if you brush while it's dry, make sure you do NOT breath any dust. Boiling is probably the best.

+1 for running wide open for heat and stirring and fluxing. When it takes too long for sprues to cool is when you can begin to start thinking about cutting back on the heat a little. Frosted does not hurt anything.

Is that mould the 255 gr FN 45 boolit? I have one of them in SC (the old .454) and newer 6-banger and it makes durn good boolits! Keep the mould and the alloy HOT and clean. I like paraffin for flux, but watch out with some candles as then are not all clean wax. Some have oil and other stuff, and I especially do not like the little votive type that look like they been whipped - airy looking. They don't work worth a flip. Clean wood ash makes good flux, too. I tends to 'absorb' or attract junk in the alloy, and then can be skimmed off. Put a little more on the surface and it keeps the scum from forming so readily. sundog

[44man]

Those look like they were bottom poured! (Sorry guys.) Crud in the lead, crud in the spout, not hot enough, putting the mould right tight to the spout, many things can cause it. One of the worst is the spout partially plugged. You should have a nice steady stream of lead, not a thin one that swirls around.

[StarMetal]

I bottom pour and don't get that. I do flux well and keep my pot clean too though. 44man is right about the flow should be a steady solid stream no one that spirals.

Joe

[lovedogs]

All of the above is good advice except one point that I feel might help some of us. And I may get some argument over this but I'll share it and let you all make whatever comments you feel like you must. Mould release isn't a good thing. It's fine for lubing your sprue plate, but shouldn't be used inside of the mould. The problem is that it's impossible to get a completely even layer of it and it can also get between the mould halves. Both of these can cause out-of-round bullets. It's better to smoke the inside of the cavities and then wipe all excess out with a Q-Tip before beginning to cast. The smoke will fill minute pores of the mould and act as an insulator and, to some degree, help bullets to fall from the mould. Mould release sounds like a good idea, but if you have out-of-round bullets it's not worth it. Smoking will always work better if done correctly.

[sundog]

Lovedogs, right on about spraying mould release directly into a mould cavity or block face. Adds material that shouldn't be there. When I use it, it is for a problem mould, and then only applied with a q-tip, not sprayed on. And never on aluminium moulds - smoke them, if needed. My experience with q-tipping a mould with release in moderate to conservative portions has been very positive. Granted, a clean mould that is burr free, oil free, crud free, is the best, but ocassionally they need a little help. I do spray the outside lightly as it helps keeps the rust level down when not in use. Lately, I have been doing more and more carpenter pencil thingy on sprue plates and block tops and getting excellent result. I even take the time to pencil the sprue holes and counter sinks - takes awhile, but worth it. It certainly straightened out a problem mould Felix put me on recently. He'll sure like it when he gets it back! And the cavities are clean down to the metal. One thing about release agent. If the mould is not clean to begin with, almost nothing you will do will make it 'mo betta', it WILL make it worserer. Just one caster's observation. Cleanliness is next to Godliness. sundog

[Cherokee]

Steveb: You have gotten good advice. My 2 cents: Clean the alloy, run the pot hotter, and unless you are a master shot, you are not likely to know the difference with slight defects in the bands or nose of that design. The base is more important.

[steveb]

WOW,Thanks for the advice fellas!.I am using a NEW Lee 4 20lb bottom pour(though the new look is gonee now :smile: and the mould is a Lee 200gr 44Mag six cavity mould.The pot does have clumpy little residue on the sides of the pot.Another question here...Is it best to smoke the moulds before each use or just that one initial time??Also im using 9lbs of WW to 1lb of tin.

[steveb]

Another thing is I have been fluxing 2-3 times per 20lb pot.So maybe im not fluxing near enough.There have been times the scum on the top is a thick looking brown....

[sundog]

Steve, I've got that mould, too. It's another dandy. Since you are bottom pouring, I'm thinkin' what we've been saying, hotter and stir and flux. Get that mix clean. Sometimes after and stirring and fluzing, you can let the mis set for 20-30 minutes and more crap will rise to the surface. Someone said to check the spout, I sure would and make sure you have a good flow.

Are you mixing your melt directly in your production pot or do you make it up ahead of time in a rendering pot? Making your alloy in a different pot than where you pour is preferred as you can do alot of cleaning at that time and prepare already clean ingots. sundog

[steveb]

Sundog,We used another pot first for melting down the WW and tin that way we had clean ingots to start with.So would you advise going ahead and cleaning out the pot and taking a small wire brush to it and starting a fresh??Also is 1lb of tin fine for 9lb of WW??

[steveb]

Heres some of the better ones ive put out...




http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/firstbatchOboolitsresized.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/firstbatchoboolits.jpg

[steveb]

I have been running the melt between 700-800 degrees and turned it up even more at one point just trying different things and noticed the top was starting to turn a purple color so I backed the heat back down.

[Marc2]

Steve,

That pot is beautiful man. Wish my Lee 20 looked like that.

Marc In VA

[steveb]

Heres whats used to melt WW and make ingots.Best part of all while at the scrapyard getting some WW and tin me and dad run across this.Ahh just in time :)
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/100_1509resized.jpg

[StarMetal]

Steve,

I hate to say this, but I'm wondering if you may have gotten one or more zinc wheelweights melted in your blend? Zinc can sure screw up your alloy.

Joe

[Dale53]

steveb;
You don't need to use any more than about 2% tin (98 parts ww's and 2 parts tin). You are using over 10% tin and that is WAY too much. There is little benefit using so much tin and you are wasting "money" that could be used elsewhere.

As others have pointed out, you have dirty metal. I only flux once. When the bullet metal is up to heat, I put in flux and stir the pot and scrape down the sides. Let the pot sit a bit and the dirt will rise to the top. Bill Ferguson (the Antimony Man) is a metalurgist and he has some good information on properly fluxing metal. Bill states that nearly everyone fluxes too much and too often. He only recommends a pinch of flux on top of 20 lbs. of bullet metal. I have reduced the flux that I use and my findings agree with his suggestions. Bill is a really nice, helpful fellow that has lots of neat things for bullet casting. Drop him a note and ask him about fluxing and dirty bullet metal. http://theantimonyman.com/

Bill sells a line of dippers that draw clean metal from the bottom of the dipper. If you use one of these and are careful, you will MUCH reduce the dirt in your smelted WW metal. If you pour directly from your smelter, the dirt is the first thing out of the pot right into your ingot moulds. Using a Rowell Ladle, which pours from the bottom of the ladle, you dip beneath the dirt in your smelt and pour only clean metal into your ingot moulds.

Dale53

[steveb]

Thanks for the info guys!!! Dale53,I bet your not all that far from me.Im in South East Indiana.How far are you from Larenceburg Indiana,or Cincinnati OH??Im about 40 mlies or better west of Lawerenceburg In.

[Buckshot]

..............SteveB, let me add my vote to the others about cleaning the pot. THAT is the problem with those inclusions and stuff. If ou pick it out it looks like arc welding slag. When you see that crud you drain the pot and clean that dude out.

It's true that all likely contaminants we inadvertantly put in the lead furnace is lighter then lead. And it SHOULD float. However some will get trapped between the lead and the walls and the bottom of the pot. For some reason, there is (I guess) something like surface tension going on. It just pins the crud against the pot wall.

Could also be that the wall is rough and catches the stuff. As the lead lowers in the pot it must drag the junk with it. You recharge the pot and the level goes up but the crud just clings at the new lower level. Thermal convection can also carry dust around that is just so tiny and light it can't escape the current.

Regardless the mechanics involved slag DOES accumilate on the bottom of the pot, and the current flow of opening the valve will suck some of it out. This (besides lack of weight) is one reason the Lee pots will dribble. Where the valve stem is tapered to seal is in a well in the bottom of the pot. If the valve were elevated above the floor of the pot by maybe 3/8" or so, I doubt there would be as much of a dribble issue.

If you are using a spoon you stole from your trusting wife to stir the melt while fluxing, chances are it still retains it's rounded but somewhat pointy end. You can NOT effectivly scrape the bottom of the pot with such a thing. You need a utensil that looks like a fireplace ash shovel or a snow shovel. Need a flat bottom or edge about 3/4" wide and sides that don't interfer with your bringing it up the radiused inside bottom of the pot, and then straight up the side wall.

You will be amazed at the amount of stuff that looks like black or darkish gray sugar you'll dredge up.

I render WW's and other scrap in a cast iron dutch oven on a propane fired turkey fryer dealiebob. Melting, fluxing and then dipping it out into ingots, then refill is the drill. I flux the surface and dip from the surface. When I'm done and the pot is dipped down pretty low, I'll lift the pot by the bail with one hand and clamp on the edge with some Vice-Grip pliers. All I do is tilt the pot and set it back down tilted over the shutoff burner so the remaing lead sets up like a cresent moon in a portion of the edge or corner.

Along with the lead in the post will be an amazing amount of the very fine blackish dust and grains UNDER the lead. I don't know how it gets down there or how the lead keeps it pinned against the bottom, but there it is.

You can also flux the melt well and have a brilliant surface like mercury. If, while fluxing you stirred deeply, sweeping up at the end of each circut, watch the surface. Pretty soon it will start growing pimples. You'll see them just all of a sudden pop up all over to mar that mirror like surface. THis is crud you've disturbed that now finally makes it's way to the top.

I think the grayish stuff is metallic oxides that just don't melt for some reason. One time I was dumping a couple handfulls of some old roundballs I'd had for ages. I swear I thought they were NEVER going to melt. They just floated around on the surface. Insulated I suppose by the heavy oxide layer. If you ever use a propane torch to melt a lead block into the melt, you'll notice the surface remains intact while the lead underneath liquifies and runs out from under the steadily receding crater the torch is making. I think some of this stuff doesn't melt, and it eventually winds up on the bottom and then out through the spout.

................Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

Buckshot, what you said in your post of 5:59 PM on 2-13-06 made a lot of sense to me. It also explains some of the reasons I have for being reluctant to change from dipping to dripping. I use a 12 lb. Potter pot for smelting and casting. When smelting I fill the pot, flux with candle wax, skim and immediately pour eight ingots of one lb. each. Then I refill the pot and repeat the process. In theory, I make clean ingots. After smelting or casting I empty and clean the pot. When I cast, I melt my clean ingots, rake the dross out of the way with the fin on my RCBS ladle, and fill the mould. After 15-20 cycles, the alloy needs fluxing again, and besides it's time to add metal that has been warming near the fire. I sometimes am appalled at the amount of crud that my operation generates, but I seldom see dross in a boolit, and my castings are very uniform in weight. From time to time I see various posters insisting, when giving advice, that alloy must be spotless. Yeah, right. I don't think that there is any such thing as squeaky clean alloy in the crude conditions that most of us work under. I think that I keep my boolits dross-free by being a fanatic fluxer and skimmer. Sure, my casting is slower than the seven-year itch, but I can make enough to feed my guns and give away a few samples, and my boolits are always good ones. Having owned one Lyman electric furnace and a couple of Lee Drip-O-Matics, it occurs to me that dross in the boolits was a constant battle in my bottom pour days. I too find a pinch or two of "black sand" on the bottom when I empty the pot. I think if everybody was as confessional as me there would be a lot more crud admitted to! Until somebody convinces me otherwise, I'll continue to keep the surface as clean as I can, and avoid dipping too deep, because I am convinced that the top and bottom are where all the dross lurks.

[steveb]

Fellas,if you notice in the pict toward the bottom of the pot how brown it is and all the "crud"on the sides of the pot.Or does this look normal.The boolits that had all the blemishes and pits went back in the pot for remelting.I will be giving this pot a good cleaning but dont have anything to base what this should look like.Again thanks for all the responses........Steve.http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a199/steveb3006/crud.jpg

[steveb]

Steve,

That pot is beautiful man. Wish my Lee 20 looked like that.

Marc In VA

Mark,it dont look as purty no more does it ;-)

[Dale53]

SteveB;
I live about 25 miles north of Cincinnati, OH. About the same distance from Lawrenceburg, IN. When the weather warms up, we'll have to get together at my home range, nearby, and shoot a bit and compare notes.

Dale53

[Goatlips]

Steveb,

I have a theory about crud in molten lead and this might be the time to lay it out. Think for a moment about dust, or a feather, floating in the air. Gravity has little effect on it but air currents certainly do.

A speck of road dirt suspended in molten lead is not affected by gravity one whit, so every direction is "up". When it reaches the outside of a glob of lead, as in a casting or smelting pot, it will stay there and be held against the side or bottom of the pot until, by scraping, we give it enough elbow room to work itself up and to the surface. I have no idea what effect flux would have on this process, perhaps next to none, as Mr. Ferguson opines.

Anyhow, that's my harebrained theory, but it seems to sorta prove out in practice. What do y'all think? [smilie=1:

Goatlips

[454PB]

Looking at your newest boolit pictures, they are more what I like to see. However, I see some bases that are rounded indicating you are still not getting good fillout. I have said before that my theory is to run the lead temperature too high, then control mould temperature and casting speed by touching the base of the filled mould on a sponge placed in a pan of water.

The fluxing arguments will go on forever, but my method is to flux a full pot well, then LEAVE the dross on top of the pot as an oxygen barrier. I occassionally stir the melt to help release the contaminants near the bottom and especially near the valve. When I'm at the bottom of the pot, I pick it up and dump all the dross and dust out of the pot. At the next session, I use a scraper to clean the side of the pot before I begin heating. If you expect to keep a clean pot, you are going to wear yourself out.

[Blacktail 8541]

After useing my pot for two seeions I had to drain and clean it. I thought that my alloys were pretty clean, but no matter how clean you think that you have it, it is never clean enough. So I guess that I will be fluxing a little more and takeing a little more time after I stir to remove the slag that remains.

[sundog]

Good discussion. I'll flux three or four times while working my way through a full twenty pounder. I'll even add ingots to keep the level up. All things I've heard some others say is a no-no. But my boolits are extremelt consistent and my match boolits actually win matches. We all have our own techniques that we have 'discovered'.

Here's another thing. All that dross that comes off the production pot? It goes in a can and goes into the next BIG mix when I render off WWs, range scrap, or whatever. It disappears in the mix. I'm sure that it's oxides of lead, tin, antimony, whatever, and putting it back into the next big run doesn't hert anything. Recycling at it best, no waste.

Steve, the inside of my pots are rusty, but clean. Often times when deep fluxing I will scrape the sides and can feel grit. Keep working it and some of it will come loose and rise to the surface. That pimpling effect that Buckshot talked about I see alot. Let it sit for awhile after that and alot of crap can be skimmed off. One thing for sure, you've got a lot of practice with that mould. I'm thinkin' that 'you're almost there.' Keep at it and develop your own method, something that works for you.

One other thing. I'll mention again clean wood ash for flux. Using the back side of the spoon and pushing the ash down into the mix seems to collect crud, it just seems to cling to the ash like a magnet. Works for me. sundog

[steveb]

SteveB;
I live about 25 miles north of Cincinnati, OH. About the same distance from Lawrenceburg, IN. When the weather warms up, we'll have to get together at my home range, nearby, and shoot a bit and compare notes.

Dale53


Dale,it sure sounds like a plan to me! ;-)

[steveb]

Thanks for all the reply's fellas.I am bound and determined to get the hang of this casting stuff...

[Cherokee]

I've got the mold and my notes say best results when running the pot hot, which to me means close to the 9 setting but not max. As for the alloy, you are adding Tin to WW's at the rate of 10%, if you are using pure Tin. I only add 2%, enough to help mold fill out. Anything more that the antimony content of the WW's is, I have been told, a waste of Tin. BTW, that bullet shoots great in my 44 Mag up to mid-range loads (I don't load top levels anymore). Also good in 44 Special.