45ACP small primer brass

[ddeaton]

Whats up with these cases? I shot advanced CCW class at the local police dept and we were using no lead rounds, at least that is what the officer told me. I didn't get a chance to look at the original box, the rounds were bulk boxed that we were loading from. Defiantly had a small primer in them. I brought a couple home and will look at the headstamp tonight after work. Is anyone reloading these? I can see all heck breaking loose if I get some of these mixed in on my Dillon 650. They are selling the cases to the local scrap yard and I was going to check on getting some until I ran across this. Lots of good 9mm and 40 though.

[leadman]

I read an article in a very old American Rifleman that said the original 45acp cases had a small primer.
Having both size cases would make it a pain using a progressive.

[Rusty W]

I'd bet that the case head has Win NT or Win Clean on the box. From what I'm told they're Non Toxic for indoor shooting. Will thay make you scratch your head and ask yourself ***??? when loading on a progressive???? You bet.....

[ddeaton]

That sounds like what they are. Like you say, why did they use small primers on this. Did they not want to make tooling for large primers for this clean product. That would be the only reason, but then make a special brass? :veryconfu

[deltaenterprizes]

Hanson made 45s with a small primer pocket in the 80s that caused problems also. It is no problem if you know you have them and keem them segregated.

[jvg5576]

Small primer 45ACP cases can be easily formed to 400 CorBon. I've had good luck resizing the Win NT cases to 400 CorBon.

[OBXPilgrim]

I'd jump all over them if I were you.

Today it may be no small rifle primers, tomorrow it may be no large pistol. I'd just look at it as flexibility. Just keep them seperated.

[TC66]

Actually I ran across these cases recently too. The NT on the case headstamp means Non-Toxic. Something being used on the lead free rounds now. At Least that is what I was told when I was at a local indoor range. But being the second person to say the same thing on this post It seems very probable.

[Sprue]

I'd bet that the case head has Win NT or Win Clean on the box. From what I'm told they're Non Toxic for indoor shooting. Will thay make you scratch your head and ask yourself ***??? when loading on a progressive???? You bet.....

Yep...

I've haven't saw any SP recently thank goodness but I did see them often enough a couple years ago. I couldn't toss them fast enough. Yes, you might say that they're NOT Progressive Press friendly.

[ddeaton]

Yes, they are Win NT. Clean as a whistle inside and out after picking them up. Primer pocket looks crimped also.

[mr mom]

nt's are not crimped ... i use them all the time . when i pick up brass and find them i set them off to the side and when im working up a load i use them.. shoot them out the back door and dont care if i pick them back up . or if someone wants to try some of my reloads i give them some of the nt's if they want the brass they can have it ...

[Alchemist]

nt's are not crimped ... i use them all the time . when i pick up brass and find them i set them off to the side and when im working up a load i use them.. shoot them out the back door and dont care if i pick them back up . or if someone wants to try some of my reloads i give them some of the nt's if they want the brass they can have it ...

Working up a load with a totally different primer seems like a bad idea to me....

Just my two cents worth. Be careful; after all, there are old reloaders and bold reloaders, but few old&bold reloaders.

[Tom Herman]

I'd bet that the case head has Win NT or Win Clean on the box. From what I'm told they're Non Toxic for indoor shooting. Will thay make you scratch your head and ask yourself ***??? when loading on a progressive???? You bet.....


I found a small handful of them in rounds I scrounged from a range. Unless I find a lot more, I'll probably just crap can them so they don't gum up the works.
I have the same issue with Fiocchi .455 Webley ammo: They use SP instead of LP like the Hornadies use.
The Webleys are so precious (and I have a significant quantity) that I save, segregate, and load them later. Then I just have to change the Dillon 550 to LP when I use the Hornady brass.

Happy Shootin'! -Tom

[Big Boomer]

DDEATON: Like you, some .45 ACP brass with small pistol primer showed up among my brass after a shooting session when I picked them up. At first, I couldn't figure out what looked odd ... then it finally dawned on me (a mite slow). These cases have small pistol primers and I wondered why. Still don't know for sure but as indicated by some of the other posts, the NT means non-toxic. Like some of the other posters, I segregated them but I do that with all my empties after cleaning. I separate them by headstamp as I clean the primer pockets and make sure no media blocks the flash hole. Still haven't used any of them but I have enough of them not to toss them aside. 'Tuck

[Brick85]

Hanson made 45s with a small primer pocket in the 80s that caused problems also. It is no problem if you know you have them and keem them segregated.

Do you mean the Hansen Cartridge Company? If so I'll have to ask Mr. Hansen about that!

[Firebird]

I wonder if it's the difference in the priming compound that led Winchester to use the small primer size. The NT rounds do not use lead styphnate or lead azide in their primers, and Winchester hasn't released what they are using in these lead-free primers. I wonder if it is simply the new primer compound they are using is more powerful and they need to use a lot less of it - thus small primers instead of large so they can use a thick coating on the inside of the primer cups without having to use so much in total that the primer pocket gets expanded.

[beagle]

I've shot both WW and FC NT brass with SP pockets.

When I was experimenting with heavy bullet loads in a Ruger convertible, I found that I could get higher velocities with less pressure signs using these as opposed to the cases loaded with LP primers.

If you shoot a Blackhawk convertible in .45 ACP, this brass may be worth holding on to./beagle

[learner]

I have discovered that the international cartridge company is using a small pistol primer in a frangible lead free round but I want to reload it with bullseye behind a 230 gr lead ball bullet - does anyone have or know what the variation in loading data would be using the small pistol primers. I have over 1,000 of these that are yet to be shot the first time and would like to be able to reload them even if I have to leave the reloaded brass on the range!!!

[Big Boomer]

Learner: I have some of these cases (hardly any compared to you!) and plan on using them if for no other reason than to load and shoot them and get rid of them.

I plan on starting with a regular (non mag) small pistol primer and a handbook recommended starting minimum load for my cast bullets. I just hope they don't turn out to produce a really accurate load and I'll have to pick up the brass and start over and begin looking for more that that NT brass! 'Tuck

[JIMinPHX]

I'm actually looking to get some of that small primer .45acp brass since I have a good supply of small pistol primers & not so many large pistol primers. If anybody is looking for a place to get rid of them, please give me a shout.

Thanks,
Jim

[AZ-Stew]

I can see all heck breaking loose if I get some of these mixed in on my Dillon 650.


Yes, you might say that they're NOT Progressive Press friendly.

One of the first rules in handloading is to not mix brass. As long as you keep them in separate lots there should not be any problems. The only thing you have to do is PAY ATTENTION (which we all should be doing while handloading) and change the primer feed parts when changing brass lots. No problem.

Even when I tumble mixed lots of brass together, they are separated by headstamp and put into plastic storage boxes as I remove them from the tumbler, then they are loaded as box lots. Keep your brass separated and you won't have any problems.

Regards,

Stew

[mister gizmo]

Jim, I've already put aside 500 - 600 of them, mostly Speer, all once-fired. See my PM to you.

Gizmo

[yondering]

I use those small primer Win NT cases too, they are handy when I'm low on large pistol primers, or when I don't feel like changing the priming setup on my Dillon after loading a bunch of .40 ammo.

Don't throw them away! They are good brass. Like Jim, I'd be happy to take them off your hands if you don't want them.

AZ-Stew, re. the mixed brass, that's really not so much a rule, as something the more particular people do. Almost all my semi-auto handgun reloading is done with mixed brass; it makes no difference one way or another, it's not a benchrest rifle. Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that separating brass isn't really necessary for a 45 ACP, other than sorting out the SP, crimped primer, or aluminum or steel cases.

[AZ-Stew]

AZ-Stew, re. the mixed brass, that's really not so much a rule, as something the more particular people do. Almost all my semi-auto handgun reloading is done with mixed brass; it makes no difference one way or another, it's not a benchrest rifle. Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out that separating brass isn't really necessary for a 45 ACP, other than sorting out the SP, crimped primer, or aluminum or steel cases.

Not arguing, either, but unless your mixed brass is all trimmed to the same length, you will get inconsistent crimps (even if taper-crimping auto cases), and that WILL affect handgun accuracy. In addition, variations in brass thickness affect pressures due to case volume variations, and also affects the grip of the case mouth upon the bullet. It's not that much trouble to sort them. I can't imagine trying to load auto magazines with one hand while holding my nose with the other as I survey the chaos of a bag full of mixed WW, RP, Speer, Hornady, nickel, brass, etc., etc., etc., all loaded with the same bullet and charge, dumped in a pile on the shooting bench. The thought gives me the "willies". Believe me, it's the only streak of neatness in my entire body, but I just won't mix brass of any kind. No mixing = no problems with a progressive press.

Regards,

Stew

[Shiloh]

I read an article in a very old American Rifleman that said the original 45acp cases had a small primer.
Having both size cases would make it a pain using a progressive.

It does.

They're a nuisance. They go into the scrap brass bucket.

Shiloh

[StarMetal]

Anyone that's just pitching that small primered brass in the junk bucket shoot me a pm, I'm interested in getting some.

Regards
Joe

[mister gizmo]

Anyone that's just pitching that small primered brass in the junk bucket shoot me a pm, I'm interested in getting some.

Regards
Joe

Joe, See my PM to you. gizmo

[Jaybird62]

I've run into just enough of the .45 ACP w/ small pistol primers to be a pain. I even found a 7.62 NATO round a couple of months ago with a small primer pocket. Still scratchin' my head on that one. It was all LC brass.

[evan price]

Picked up a box full of this from a guy at the range shooting a Smith 625 and full moon clips. He demooned it and put it all back in the box. I thought, hey, .45 brass!
Small primers. Kept it separated. Then I read the box, and Winchester says they do not recommend reloading this brass.

Looked around for why- turns out the NT primers have a higher brisiance value than regular small pistol primers which is why they went to a small size. Regular small pistol primers might not be hot enough for some powders; word I hear is use a Magnum primer and work up the load for that specific brass. YMMV.