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View Full Version : The Ram vs. the 30-30!



Trailblazer
02-12-2006, 11:16 AM
Our club's levergun silhouette match has died, at least until somebody steps forward and volunteers to run the match. I do enjoy shooting the 30-30 and cast bullets at the steel targets so I decided to give it a try on the 500 meter silhouette range. I have been meaning to develop some cast loads for the 30-06 for silhouette but just haven't had the time to put into it. Anyway I had 30+ rounds of 30-30 ammo left from our last levergun match and inspired by 30WCF I thought I would give it a try on the 500 meter range. I didn't have enough ammo to shoot the whole course but I had enough to get an idea on sight settings.

I have a Redfield receiver sight on the 30-30 and a 24" barrel. The load is the 165 Saeco #311 and 21 grains 4198. I guesstimate about 1800 fps and I haven't shot it on paper but it shoots good. I managed to hit four targets. I hit one ram, which only produced a faint "tink". Need more powder and bigger bullets to knock them down! The Redfield sight was at the very top of its adjustment to get on the rams. Couldn't hit one of them dancing turkeys. Got one pig and two chickens, which all tipped over nicely. There was 36 minutes of elevation difference between rams and chickens according to the graduations on the Redfield sight.

Next step is to develop some faster loads. The Saeco load did OK on chickens and pigs but I will still try to increase the velocity. It may work on turkeys too, but its gettin to be a fer piece to turkeys at 385 meters so a hotter load may help. The only heavy mold I have is the HBC so it will get tested next in the 30-30. If that doesn't work I might try the Lee 200 grain because the molds are cheap or I might search for a Lyman 311284. It was fun shooting! Nobody expects you to hit anything with a levergun and they sure don't expect you to hit anything with cast bullets at those ranges.

JohnH
02-12-2006, 11:51 AM
Hopefully this won't come off like I'm just an *******, but 15 or so years ago back home a couple buddies and myself shot a lot of NRA Hunter Pistol Silhouttee. We got a couple sheets of T1, cut out and made the targets, made up berms on the range and had matches every month. Was fun for a couple years but as with many things, life took different directions for us and others who were traveling to our shoots and eventually the thing died out. Yet there were people who kept saying they wanted to shoot it, but needed someone to run the matches (I don't have a BURNS MY ASS smilie) What do they think we did? Didn't wait around for someone to figure it out for us, that's for sure.

Now it may be that you are in my position, and are unable or unwilling (I definately understand that) to run the matches any longer. But if you are on the other side of the fence, try not waiting for someone else to do it, but get out there, set up and run the matches yourself. Put together a couple guys that want to keep it up and take charge. I doubt the guy(s) whose shoes you would be filling would feel put out about it, might actually give them a chance to show up for a match and just relax, shoot and enjoy. Too often a good things falls by the way side because no one will step up and be responsible, but they seem all too willing to take advantage of those who do.

Buckshot
02-13-2006, 07:56 AM
................Might oughta set down with some paper and some ballistics stuff like sectional density, and BC of these slugs and some actual velocities and figure out if you can do it. Single loading the levergun will allow you to use a more efficient shape too.

One time for fun I used the Lyman 311284 in a good old Marlin 1893 with a 26" tapered octagon barrel. I figured where the slug was in the case seated out as far as I could get it, and still close the action. Naturally this was a single loading proposition.

From there I filled the case, using a 24" drop tube (trial and error) with as much WC872 as it could choke down. There were 2 positive results from this seat of the pants fooling around stuff. One was that the load was VERY accurate stacking 5 rounds on top of each other at 50 yards. The second was that it burned clean.

Since then I have read of folks using 200 and 200gr+ slugs over something like 34.0grs of 4350. The velocity I got with WC872 was like 1425 fps IIRC. I think the 4350 was delivering 1600 something. Possibly a pointy boolit like the 311299 and it's 200gr weight might just be the ticket to get out there, and with a high body hit, knock the ram over?

At our club's 200 meter silhuette matches they also allowed un-registered (not members of the sanctioning bodies) club members to shoot the match with cast lead. They called it the 'Cowboy' match for lack of a better term. We had to use cast lead in our rifles. There were 3-4 of us who would shoot through as a group.

Myself and a freind would sometimes use a 6.5 Swede. We both used the same boolit Ly 268645 @ 152grs and 34.0grs of WC860 for about 1550 fps. We didn't have any problems knocking over the 200 meter ram with those loads.

So possibly a streamlined 311299 up around 1700 fps or so might still have enough juice at 500 meters to push one over? Maybe even if the paper ballistics don't show it, the extra momentum of the heavier slug might do it? I'd shoot my 577-450 Martini with a 405gr Lee at 1250 fps and it would for sure retain enough stuff to knock the ram over.

.................Buckshot

Trailblazer
02-13-2006, 11:11 AM
JohnH, been there, done that. Even if I wanted to, I DON'T HAVE TIME! The 500 meter game is my true love anyway.

Buckshot, I have been mulling over combinations. I am going to start with H414/760 because 30WCF had good results with that. I also have WC852 which does real well in my 356 Win with the RCBS 200, although not top velocity. With the limited case capacity it seems like the ball powders should give the highest velocity. Also have 748, WC846 and BLC-2, but those are a little on the fast side for heavy bullets. Initial work will be with the HBC. Who knows? It might work! I cast a few up yesterday. Gawd, is that single cavity mold ever slow!

Load development will happen at the match like most of my silhouette load development does. I have been shooting silhouette for a few years and if it don't go where its pointed when the trigger breaks it ain't a good load! If it don't knock the target down it ain't a good load! Work should ease up in 6 months or so and I will have more play time. Right now it is hard to get away to shoot an occasional match.

McLintock
02-17-2006, 01:10 PM
Good ambition and probably going to be fun to play with, but I'm not sure that it can be done. For the 500 meter rams it takes momentum to consistently knock them down, justl like it takes torque to pull heavy loads in trucks, not horsepower. The biggest weight bullet you can get in a 30-30 case is probably a 200 gr and that doesn't leave much room for powder to drive it fast enough. You start using powders that are compatible with heavy bullets and you can't get enough in the case. I shoot 38-55's in both lever guns and single shots, with both smokeless and black powder, and that case capacity issue really is a bummer, and the 30-30 is just a necked down 38-55. In Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette, a 500+ gr .45 bullet at 11-1200 fps will just about always take a ram down, even with an edge hit. Go .40 caliber and a 400 gr at the same velocities will consistently do it, but go to .38 caliber and it gets iffy with 300+ grain bullets, even at higher velocities. Nobody uses a weight of less than 300 in a .38 no matter how fast they can drive it. They still "ring" rams with the .38's though, with off center hits and the like. Then, these heavier bullets have to be stabilized so they maintain their accuracy at those distances and a lever gun normally does not have the twist necessary for stabilizing heavy bullets. The 30-30 for years has had a factory loading of 150 or 170 gr and that's what most of the twists in lever guns are made for. If you start shooting 200's with these twists, will they stabilize enough at 500 meters to allow you to even hit the target if you do find a load with enough velocity. Like I say, it'll be fun to find out.
Good luck,
McLintock

Trailblazer
02-17-2006, 08:57 PM
It has been done by John Kort who posts here as w30WCF. And anyway, it is all about the fun! Nobody pays me to go out there and humiliate myself. Even if I don't get any rams there are 30 other targets and I will beat some of those boltgunners on those 30 targets.

I'll shoot those rams in the horn. That ought to do it.

Topper
02-17-2006, 09:11 PM
Still experimenting with this cartridge, but I stumbled across a load that works well in a TC 14' 30 Herrett barrel that's been rechambered to 30-30AI.
Inexpensive Lee mold, 150gr FPGC.
Using 32grains of IMR3031 yielded 2131fps / SD 13fps.
Accuracy was not as good as jacketed (yet) but under an inch @ 50yds.
Target (http://photobucket.com/albums/v342/Topper_1950/?action=view&current=30-30AI_Cast.jpg)
Elevated scope for last shot, just outside the bull.

versifier
02-18-2006, 02:11 AM
I'd give the Lee 200gr RNGC a try with 3031 and RE-7. You never know unless you try and the mould is inexpensive enough to give it a shot.

Trailblazer
02-18-2006, 10:29 AM
Topper, That sounds like a good load. I don't have 3031 but I do have some RL-7.

I will probably try the 200 Lee if what I have doesn't work. I borrowed one several years ago and cast a bunch up. They shot well in my 30-06. I probably shot some in my 30-30 but that would have been in my old barrel. The ones I had were to large on the bore rider to enter the bore. My 180 Lee mold makes the bore rider a bit large too. This barrel seems to be a little larger and they might work in it.

McLintock
02-18-2006, 12:24 PM
The difference is probably going to be whether you can get a bore riding bullet for your barrel or not. This will greatly increase your powder capacity for the extra power you need. In my 38-55, using black powder, I can get 47 gr of 1 1/2F in a case with a Lyman 330 gr bullet which isn't bore riding, and 54 gr with a Brooks bullet that is bore riding, both with approximately the same compression. But, the top .38 shooters in silhouette are using .38-50 Remingtons and .38-72 Winchesters that carry at least 10 grs more than this, plus 365 gr bullets with 1-12 or 1-14 twist barrels, so I'm probably still marginal; mines 1-15. Find out what bullet John Kort is using and get a mould for it, or get a custom maker to cut a mould that will bore ride in your barrel. And if you can hit them in the horn or high on the back, that'll help a lot. Again, good luck and have fun doing it.
McLintock

JSH
02-18-2006, 01:19 PM
I have been playing with the old RG-4 in my 30-30 some. This design may help you in your quest. Mine is dropping right around 196 with my alloy. I have not chronoed any to see what they are doing, did shoot paper to see if they were key holing and no sign there. I have also shot these in a 30-20 in a bf with fair to decent results on rams at 200M. Any that were hit ANY where went down. The 30-30 is a 10 twist as is the BF.
Jeff

Trailblazer
02-18-2006, 09:09 PM
John said when he used the 311284 at 220 grains the rams "disappeared". He also mentioned the 311299 and the RCBS 180FN I think. Probably need 200 grains or more.

I narrowly missed a 4 cavity RG-4 at a gunshow a couple years ago with handles for $30. A "friend" bought it. I told him if he decided to get rid of it to let me know. I found out several months later he sold it to somebody else. I never have shot any of the RG-4 but it might do the trick.

A custom mold would be nice as this rifle doesn't have much throat and a bore rider would be good. I don't know if I am that serious about it yet. It looks like I could get a custom for what some of those old Lyman molds go for on Ebay.

McLintock
02-19-2006, 01:28 PM
You might look at the NEI Catalogue, they have two .308 bullets listed with a .301 diameter ogive which might bore ride in your barrel. One's a 188 gr (#61A) and the other is 190 gr (#63), both gas checked. Also, you could design your own on the Mountain Moulds website and come out with a good bullet. You'd have to get the demensions of your barrel in order to design it, but slugging it needs to be done anyway, even to see if one of the NEI types would work.
McLintock

Trailblazer
02-20-2006, 11:51 AM
McLintock, where do you shoot?

I do believe I would go the custom mold route before I would pay the price for an NEI mold. Probably not much difference.

Now that you talked me into it, do you want to finance it? I am beginning to see I need a sponsor for this endeavor. Custom 30" barrel to get the front sight farther away and with correct twist and throat for long cast bullets. Lyman globe front sight. Top quality windage and elevation adjustable tang sight. Custom butt stock with a higher comb so I can maintain a good cheek weld when the rear sight is elevated. And custom mold. Shouldn't be more than a couple thousand dollars.

McLintock
02-20-2006, 01:45 PM
It can be a money pit allright, and get real expensive pretty quick; particularly if you're trying to do something that's kind of iffy to begin with. Mine are a Winchester '94 that started as a Oliver F. Winchester Commemerative in 38-55 that shot weirdly. So I had it cryotized (frozen first), that didn't work; then put a new barrel on it (one of Brownell's custom octogon 26"er's), that didn't help; so then found a pre-64 gun for $140, and put the action off that with the custom barrel and commemerative wood; and finally it's shooting pretty good, particularly with black powder, but I'd hate to add up the total cost. But you could put together something that may do the trick for far less than $2000; probably around half that or even less. You can even get your barrel throated in order to seat the long bullets out and save the cost of a barrel; if it will shoot the longer ones OK. Marbles's tang sights have longer stems in order to increase the distance a gun will shoot and combined with a low cost Lyman 17A, they work pretty good. My Browning Traditional Hunter in 38-55 has one as standard equipment, and with a very low front bead sight I can reach the rams with my high velocity smokeless load. Course, it doesn't zero much under 200 yards, and that's still with the standard stem. You just have to decide you want to do it, irregardless.
My other pit is a C. Sharps Hi-Wall in 38-55 for NRA Silhouette, that I put a MVA scope on, lengthened the chamber (you can't even begin to get enough powder in a standard chamber) , bought two custom moulds for, and I'm trying to work up a load that will consistently hit the rams for it. So sorry can't finance another endeavor. At times it makes me want to put the scope on my Browning BPCR in 45-70 and forget the 38-55; it shoots good and was far cheaper.
If you're talking a custom mould from the ground up, it's at least $150 and you can get one of the NEI moulds for about $105 in cast iron and less for aluminum. I think Mountain Moulds are about $125, so an off the shelf one from NEI that's a bore rider isn't too bad. I just paid $99 for an off the shelf Hoch mould from Midway for the 38-55 and thought that was pretty good for a decent mould.
I live in Dewey, Arizona (moving on into Prescott in a couple more months) and shoot mostly at Ben Avery Shooting Range on the north edge of Phoenix. I shoot with both a Cowboy Action Club and the NRA Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette group that shoots there. I also have permit badges from Ben Avery that allow me to practice on both the Silhouette range and a 100 yard bay at the range; it takes about 55 minutes to get to Ben Avery from my house. But I don't have anyone to man the spotting scope while shooting during the week, so haven't used that too much. I have a 3-400 yard practice range on the Prescott National Forest about 20 mins away from where I live, my own home made steel targets and paper holding frames, and a home made bench rest that fits into the receiver hitch on my pickup; not the best but it works. That's where I do most of my load development, when it's not too windy.
I like beatin' my head against a wall also, that's why I'm suggesting ways to go about it; hell, all it is, is money, and you're not a true gun nut until you get into these types of things. When you suddenly realize that you're spent more on something then you'll ever be able to get out of it, then you're there, gun nut heaven. When it does work, then it's all worthwhile, even if you're broke.
Again, good luck,
McLintock

w30wcf
02-20-2006, 07:32 PM
Gentlemen,

I have three favorite heavy bullets for my .30-30 leverguns.

Old West 198 (weighs 205 grs. in w.w.+2% tin) -
I crimp this bullet over the front driving band. It has a .17 meplat and the loaded round measures 2.56" OAL and will feed through the magazine ok. I use 35 grs. of H414 / WLR primer and it does 2,080 f.p.s. in a 26" barrel. A ballistics lab tested this load for me and it developed 36,000 CUP (2,000 CUP below SAMMI .30-30 MAP) and did 2,035 fps in their 24" pressure barrel. It does the job on hard set 200 meter rams. I have also used it on the 500 meter rams in Ridgway and it does a decent job there too, but I prefer the 311299 or 311284 for long range work due to their higher bc's.

Lyman 311299 (weighs 208 grs. in w.w.+ 2% tin) -
I use the same 35 gr. / H414 charge with this bullet which I seat up to the 1st driving band for single loading. It shoots very well at 500 meters and just about every ram it has connected with has went earthward.

Lyman 311284 (weighs 220 grs. in w.w. + 2% tin) -
I use 34 / H414 (2,020 f.p.s. 26" barrel)with this bullet seated to touch the base of the 1st driving band. A ballistic lab ran a test on this load and it also developed pressure in the 36,000 CUP range. It also shoots very well at 500 meters and does a good job of toppling the steel rams. I have also tried a "mid range" load of 24 grs. of 4064 with this bullet which developed 1,700 f.p.s. and accuracy still held up well at 500 M from the 12" twist barrels.

1,000 yards-
I have tried all three bullets / loads at "Homer" the 1,000 yard buffalo. They hold up out there very well also. What fuunnn!

CAUTION -
If you try these loads, back off 10% to start. Not all powder lots or rifles are the same. H4350 can be substituted as can H4831 which can be increased by 2 grs. Surprisingly, 36 grs. of slow burning H4831 developed just about 2,000 f.p.s. in the 26" barrel with the 311284. 36grs. is a capacity load with that bullet.

Have fun,
w30wcf

drinks
02-20-2006, 10:33 PM
Trailblazer;
I am shooting the Lee 200gr gc in a .303 Savage '99, 20" barrel.
35gr BLC2 or 25gr 4198 give me 2000 + - fps and very good 50 yd accuracy, under 1" with a Redfield receiver sight with .092 arperture.
I have not run this in Point Blank for 1000yd results, but is is pretty impressive at 500yds and is a very easy shooting load at the bench.
Don

Trailblazer
02-21-2006, 10:47 PM
Thanks for the data!

John, your data matches well with the Lyman 45th handbook. They show 34.5 grains 760(same as H414) with a 190 gr. bullet gives 2017 fps at 39,000cup. That is the only heavy bullet data I have. Nice to have it confirmed by yours.

drinks, are you sure about the 35 gr. BLC-2? That looks a little hot! The Lyman book shows max of 29.5 gr. with the 190 gr. bullet for 2012 fps.

drinks
02-23-2006, 10:06 PM
Trailblazer;
Hodgdon, who is pretty lawyered in their data, show 36gr BLC-2 with a 170gr jacketed bullet for .30-30 and the .303 Savage case is larger than the .30-30 and the action is stronger than the '94, although not noticeably stronger than the Marlin.
I have no problems with the load, primers are fine and it is no harder to resize than my plinker loads with the 113gc with 8gr Herco.

StarMetal
02-23-2006, 10:14 PM
drinks,

According to a forum strictly on Winchester and Marlin leveractions, abd that's just one source, the 94 is actually the stronger of the two actions. Looks like a blowup test is in order.

Joe

sundog
02-23-2006, 10:28 PM
Well, I'm not an engineer or a metalurogist (or whatever they're called), and don't paly one on TV. But, what about the accumulative affect of hammering on those action over some period. A single charge exceeding limits to blow it up would require new actions for each test for suceeding increments of pressure. Wouldn't it? That'd get a little pricey. Wouldn't it? Inquiring mind (and trust me, THAT DON'T happen that often).... sundog

StarMetal
02-23-2006, 10:43 PM
Corkie,

Yup, would get expensive. Let's take gas handling for example. The Win 94 has that lug come up behind the bolt and it's a raceway, and it blocks off the gas from coming down alongside the bolt. The Marlin doesn't have anything to block the bolt. All the Marlin has is that little lug that locks inside a notch cut for it in the bolt. Again the Win has that lug totally blocking the bolt. I heard too that overly hot loads lock a Marlin up bad, not the Winnie. There was something too about the 92 and 86 Win too, something about the bolts being at an angle or tapered or something. Floodgate knows what I"m talking about. Anyways whe the Winnie tried to go the bolt rides up on the lug behind it and spreads the receiver walls some. They didn't say about the Marlin going, but I would imagine it would have to just about blow the bolt out of the rifle. Take in mind that both have the bolt connected to the lever.

Joe

floodgate
02-24-2006, 01:55 AM
Joe:

"There was something too about the 92 and 86 Win too, something about the bolts being at an angle or tapered or something. Floodgate knows what I"m talking about."

Not quite. What I was referring to was that in re-designing the 86 action for the 71 in .348, Winchester angled the front face of the locking blocks where they mated with the bolt back by a degree or two, so that they cammed the bolt solidly forward. A gunsmith buddy found this out when he tried to rebuild a 71 with 86 parts, or vice versa - I forget which (the older Winchester Single-Shot had this feature, too). But the locking blocks on these also serve to interrupt gas flow back along the bolt in the event of a busted case. I've busted them in a Marlin 93, and a Winchester 94 (and a Savage 99, too), and I'll take the Winchester (or Savage) any time over the Marlin. (Tryng to use worn-out cases "just one more time", or fireforming nut-ball wildkitties.)

floodgate

StarMetal
02-24-2006, 12:12 PM
Doug,

Thanks, that was it the angle of the face of the lug. I think it's a misconceived noton the Marlin is stronger because it has a solid top action. Now if Marlin would have had a locking lug that came up totally across the back of the lug, then maybe it would be. Bet they wished they would have though of a rotary bolt lug like on the Winchester Model 88, then they would have been way ahead of everyone.

Joe

Marlin Junky
05-19-2006, 08:46 AM
StarMetal,

What do you think it would take to shear off a 336's "little lug" as you called it above? Do you think the Winchester action side walls would open up before the locking bolt on a Marlin 336 would shear off? Why do you suppose the M94 had it's side walls reinforced on the "Big Bore" variation while the 336 didn't need to be beefed up to chamber the .356 and .375 Winchester rounds? Since most of us don't blow our guns to pieces, it would be more interesting to me to know which of the two rifles (M94 vs. 336) maintains it's headspace better over time while digesting thousands of SAAMI maximum loads.

Meanwhile, back on topic, isn't 311284 a little pointy to be loaded in a tubular magazine?

MJ

felix
05-19-2006, 09:24 AM
There are too many lots of BLC2/H335 (WC846/WC844) to say anything about "absolute" speeds of these two specifically. Yes, there are some terribly slow BLC2s out there, and vice versa. Same with the H335s.

My 336 in 35R has excessive headspace. The action closes with slight feel on the largest gage, the field length gage! Did the bolt shrink? You can bet it did or the action holding it in place expanded.

... felix

felix
05-19-2006, 09:30 AM
The Ruger lever gun appears to be the best of all worlds to me. How strong it is, is way beyond me. That gun needs to be in the comparison loop as well. I still like the rotary bolt idea, probably perfected by remington with the 760 model. Can't blow that sucker up without using pistol powder in the 06 case. That is the gun I made most of my reloading "mistakes" on. ... felix

Trailblazer
05-19-2006, 10:40 AM
Marlin Junkie,

I think Starmetal was referring to a test done by several people with the 454 Casull in the Marlin 336 and Winchester 94. IIRC the 454 Casull operates at 60,000 PSI or thereabouts. Way above normal pressures for a 336 or 94. The Marlins failed first. Second to go was a Win 94 Big Bore that was apparently not heat treated correctly as it was to soft. The last to go might have been a pre-64 Win 94. None stood up to the battering from the 454 Casull for very many rounds. I can't remember all the details, but I think I saved those posts and they are somewhere on my harddrive. If you want to see them I will try to dig them out later. Also William Iorg who posts as Slim rechambered 4 rifles to 30-30 Imp. Again I don't remember exact details but the Win's handle slightly hotter loads than the Marlin. Slim has plans to pressure test his loads sometime soon and it might be that Ranch Dog is going to assist with that test. These tests will be much more relevant to normal useage than the Casull tests.

Felix,

I tested the older BLC-2 that I bought recently. It is hotter than all the newer books I have show. It is closest to the data in the Lyman #45, c. 1970, and maybe even a grain or two hotter than that data. I tested it in a 356 Win with cast and used the data for the 358 Win with jacketed so things aren't exactly the same. The loads listed in the newer manuals for BLC-2 use a lot more powder than the Lyman loads. I can dig that out later too.

Marlin Junky
05-19-2006, 04:24 PM
Trailblazer,

I would love to examine those tests! I assumed the basic M94 was being compared to the 336 above, but I see you're comparing the Big Bore to the 336 instead. Are there pictures? You can send me all gun related stuff to marlinjunky@yahoo.com... junky with a "y" not and "ie" :Fire:

:)

MJ

Marlin Junky
05-19-2006, 04:33 PM
Felix,

You said... "Did the bolt shrink? You can bet it did or the action holding it in place expanded."

Did you own the gun when it had tighter headspace? Isn't it possible the thing was sloppy when it came off the assembly line? I own two 336s both built in 1950 and brass fired in s/n G3xxx (4 numeric digits) will not chamber in s/n G6xxxx (5 numeric digits). Both 336s are the 24 inch "A" Models in 30-30 and both only had barely noticeable traces of copper fouling when I purchased them, implying little use probably limited to factory ammo.

MJ

felix
05-19-2006, 04:59 PM
MJ, My gun was used when I got it. I just really got a good and accurate one, and it is very smooth too boot. I only use 180's in it, but at full velocity, like close to 2400 minus. I figure 40K cup max with several of the 844's and their close ball powder relatives. Yes, the metal could be soft compared to today's. Yes, I checked the headspace BEFORE I ever shot the gun. An idea that everyone should comtemplate before buying a used lever gun. ... felix

Marlin Junky
05-19-2006, 09:08 PM
Felix,

So you're saying the headspace was tighter when you acquired it? In other words, you loosened it up with your 180's at 2400 fps? How many gains of powder from the BCL2 family does it take to get 180 grain boolits (or bullets - I assume most of your shooting is cast?) going 2400 fps from a 20"(or is it a 24"?) barrel? When was your rifle(carbine?) built and what model is it?

MJ

P.S.

Anyone... I'm still looking for input on my comment above:

"Meanwhile, back on topic, isn't 311284 a little pointy to be loaded in a tubular magazine?" Or are you guys simply loading 311284 a round at a time? I've got a SAECO 301 on order and wondering if I'm pushing my luck by loading full house ammo loaded with 301 in the magazine. I strive to keep my boolits under BHN 16.

StarMetal
05-19-2006, 09:21 PM
MarlinJunky,

Well Winchester later went back to no beefed up walls in their later high pressure rounds. This was verified on the leveraction forums that the beefing up did nothing. According to them when a Marlin reaches destructive pressure it shears the lug. With the Winchester it bulges out the sides, but way ahead of where the locking lug is, the lug usually never lets go. Also and equally important on the 94 Winnie that locking lug completely blocks off the bolt raceway and no gas comes back into the shooters face, whereas in the Marlin the gas has a straight route.

Joe

felix
05-19-2006, 10:02 PM
The 336RC was stretched when I got it. I don't THINK my loads have increased the damage. 40 grains 844/H335 behind any 160-180 lead boolit is all I shoot in it. ... felix

Trailblazer
05-19-2006, 11:21 PM
Marlin JunkY,
I put the test discussion in the other thread.

Thought I would post the BL-C2 data I have since it would be real easy to get in trouble with this one. I tried 40 grains with the Saeco 352 which drops at 252 grains. Velocity at 15 feet averaged 2008 fps from my 20" barreled 356 Win. This agrees fairly well with the Lyman #45 manual c. 1970. Their start charge for the 358 Win with a 250 grain bullet in a 22" barreled Savage 99 is 41 grains for 2000 fps. The Hornady Third Edition c.1980 has a starting load of 40.4 grains for 2000 fps from a 22" barrel in 358 Win with 250 grain bullet. Again, it is not far from my results.

Hodgdon's Data Manual No.26 c.1992 is where things get interesting. Their starting load in a 20" barreled 356 Win is 46 grains with a 250 grain bullet for 2010 fps. The current data on Hodgdon's website is the same. Six more grains of powder for the same velocity! BL-C2 ain't what it used to be!

Marlin Junky
05-20-2006, 02:56 AM
Trailblazer,

What other thread are you talking about? What I really want to see is someone's report who scraficed an M94 and an M336 (both in 30WCF) in the name of firearm edification.

Felix,

How do you know it was stretched opposed to simply chambered with a lot of excess headspace?

MJ

Buckshot
05-20-2006, 07:26 AM
...........Re: 31124's in a 30-30 levergun. Whe I tried some in my great grandpa's 1893, in order to get in enough WC872 it was a for sure single shot proposition. You also had to shoot the round in the chamber because it wouldn't unload through the ejection port it was seated out so long :-).

...............Buckshot

felix
05-20-2006, 08:03 AM
I don't know if it was manufactured wrong or not. That would require a complete teardown, and do a comparison between new and old parts looking for oblong sections in the old parts. Way too much work unless the gun quits shooting. ... felix

Bret4207
05-20-2006, 08:14 AM
If someone wants to do a "test to destruction" on the 336 and 94 remeber you HAVE to use the same reamer and the barrels will have to be from the same manufactuer. Testing a Marlin chambered and rifled gun against the Winchester copy may not be apples to oranges but it would be oranges to tangerines. There is still enough difference to screw up the results.

I don't think either of them hold a candle to the 99 Savage. (Tpr Bret, professional pot stirrer!)

Trailblazer
05-20-2006, 08:29 AM
Marlin JunkY,

This thread: "Buck Elliot's 454 Casull levergun test, Part 1"

If you read it you will see they destroyed a "few Winchesters" only one of which was a Big Bore. Some of the others may or may not have been 30-30's but they would have been the same class cartridges and the same receivers as the 30-30 used. Bottom line: ALL the Winchesters outlasted the Marlin and ALL the standard 30-30 type Winchesters outlasted the Big Bore. So you oughta be proud that your Marlin was almost as good as a Big Bore, but then it was less than half as good as a standard 94 made in the 1920's.

Marlin Junky
05-20-2006, 03:32 PM
Trailblazer,

I own Winchester M94's and appreciate them for their features not present on Model 336s. One is the longer top tang that accommodates a tang sight better that the stubby top tang on a 336. Another feature would be the M94's lighter weight and usually trimmer wood in common factory forms that provides better handling characteristics.

Now to the "analysis" on the Buck Elliot's 454 Casull levergun test. I was disappointed in the report because he never mentions measuring pressure nor does he even fire through a chronograph... very amateurish indeed. He says about the loads fired through the 336, "The loads we used were very carefully assembled, using 300 gr. hard-cast bullets (from a FA/Lyman mould), with gas checks, sized .452" and lubed with Lyman's bullet lube. The load was 31 gr. H-110, with a CCI Large Rifle Primer and finished off with a heavy crimp. The completed bullets weighed in at 315 gr. That is a factory-equivalent loading for that caliber." However, he doesn't mention the loads fired through the M94. I can only assume the loads fired through the 336 and 94 are the same but what the heck does that prove if you're not using pressure equipment or at least a chronograph. The ammo could be producing 5,000 more CUP in the 336 and no one would know it. Without quantitative analysis to back it up, this report means zip.

Another thing he says that doesn't make sense is, "The 336's Locking bolt, as well as the locking-bolt recesses in both bolt and receiver, were battered and mangled to the point that the action would not stay closed. The receiver walls bulged outward slightly (again -- more on the right side) and the action became almost impossible to cycle." What does that mean? The action would not stay closed yet at the same time it was almost impossible to cycle? He should have just posted pictures.

MJ

StarMetal
05-20-2006, 03:45 PM
Let's pick that apart a little bit. He said the action was NEAR impossible to cycle, not that it wouldn't cycle...so that makes sense to me. With this very hard cycling I understand that it wouldn't stay closed then. I'm not real familiar with the Marlin he use as to whether it has Micro-Groove rifling, if it does then I would assume the Marlin would have less pressure then the Win 94 with a more conventional rifling. I base this on Micro-Groove having larger dimensions and also that the rifling isn't as deep as conventional rifling, thus less pressure.

To answer another of your questions I don't remember which leveraction forum I was on as I was surfing the web for information. God if I saved everything I'd need one heck of a large HD.

I agree with you that the Winchesters are indeed lighter, have slimmer wood, and in my opinion I think they are a more handsome rifle. I flat out don't care for the 336's, but I have and do like the Marlin 1894's. Mines a Cowboy in 45 LC and boy it shoots really great.

Joe

Marlin Junky
05-20-2006, 03:56 PM
I gave you a direct quote above. I know what he said and I don't assume where things need to be measured for proper analysis. Why the heck are you even mentioning Microgroove barrels? The barrel in question is a custom barrel to accommodate the .454.

BTW, I didn't read anything about shearing off the locking bolt. Have you ever disassembled a 336 or even owned one?

MJ

StarMetal
05-20-2006, 06:00 PM
Yup, owned an early model 336 and my best friend owned a 336 in 35 Rem. Also owned a few Win 94's. Have also owned these back in the early 60's. How many years of familiarity do you have?

Joe

Marlin Junky
05-20-2006, 07:42 PM
StarMetal,

I collect pre-microgroove 336s and have disassembled, cleaned and action tuned 4 (three 30WCF's and one .35 Rem) within the last two years. I wouldn't call the locking bolt on the 336 "little". Granted it's different but think about how a bolt gun locks up and compare the shear area of the 336 to a two lug bolt gun. Granted there are other factors unaccounted for in this discussion (like rear opposed to front lock-up and possibly action hardness) but I am still waiting for someone to measure how much pressure it takes to bust a 336 locking bolt. I just don't place much stock in opinions, assumptions and conclusions based on assumptions. I've heard Bob Dunlap from AGI say when comparing the 36 action to the 336 action that it's almost impossible to blow the 336's bolt from its receiver. I don't place any stock in that answer either because it's based on subjective opinion not quantitative analysis. Now if Bob Dunlap, or for that matter even a pimply faced 20 year old technician, were to say we have tried to blow a Marlin 336 bolt from its action and have registered 150,000 CUP at the chamber without shearing the locking bolt, that would get my attention.

Regards,
MJ

P.S. But getting back to the discussion on "Buck Elliot's 454 Casull levergun test", I just don't understand what is meant by "failure" with respect to the 336 especially when he said "the action would not stay closed".

StarMetal
05-20-2006, 08:35 PM
Yes, there's a pretty good lug locking up into that bolt. About the only think I can say is it doen't seem to stick up too far into the bolt, but I guess it's good enough. Like you say tho I'll like to see the one we're talking about. I'd also love to see a thoroughly done blow up test of Marlins and Winchesters and in different caliber, whether that would make a difference or not.

You know, I remember before any commercial 454 lever rifles came out. Someone asked Lane Simpson of Shooting Times why couldn't he just ream out the chamber of a 45 LC lever action? He replied with the 454 being a very very high pressure round and the rifles wouldn't be able to handle it. Even a rifle built dedicated to the caliber. Then bingo, about six months to a year after he said here were factory 454 lever actions.

My brother still has the first Marlin he bought after he graduated and it's a 30-30 pre-micro-groove. That was also the first Marlin I had shot too. I missed an early 32 spcl Marlin that one of my friend had. He let it go for about $200, I can kick myself for that one.

By the way that forum I talk about did say that the worse thing that Winchester did was make their rifle angle-eject because that took a chunk of steel out of the right side of the receiver.

Joe

Trailblazer
05-20-2006, 09:42 PM
MJ, I think it is safe to assume they used the same loads in all the rifles. It would be meaningless if they didn't. I would expect the same loads when fired in the same barrel to generate the same maximum pressures no matter what action that barrel is screwed into. I don't know what importance details on pressures and velocity would have but again they may have measured them. They were only testing the suitability of these rifles for the factory loaded 454 Casull. They used factory equivalent loads which he stated to be loaded to 65,000 PSI. All of the rifles failed when loaded with factory equivalent 454 Casull loads! I think that what failure means is things got so out of shape it wasn't useable or safe to fire anymore.

You may have noticed that Buck was going to look for the complete report and he suggested that Jim T might still have it also. Unfortunately the complete report never materialized so all I have is what I saved.

On the 336, I think that when the locking recesses get battered that it would upset metal into the bolt raceway, so I would expect the bolt to get tight. Also the locking bolt would get loose in its mortise and might want to cock and bind. This would make the action hard to cycle. As to why it wouldn't stay locked up, I guess the lever and locking bolt just got loose and distorted enough that the lever detent didn't engage in its slot properly and the lever and locking bolt wanted to drop. Pure conjecture on my part-just trying to visualize what went wrong.

I'm a practical kinda guy and I don't see any practical difference between Marlin 336's and Win 94's. I prefer Winchesters for purely aesthetic reasons. I have to say though that I have seen some old Marlin 93's that are also a delight to the eye. These leverguns are toys to me and I do enjoy playing with them. When the freezer is empty and time is short and I have a tag to fill I use a scope sighted 264 Win Mag bolt gun. It is a much more practical rifle for the country I hunt.

Marlin Junky
05-20-2006, 11:40 PM
Trailblazer,

I'm inclined to agree with you on the following:

"On the 336, I think that when the locking recesses get battered that it would upset metal into the bolt raceway, so I would expect the bolt to get tight. Also the locking bolt would get loose in its mortise and might want to cock and bind. This would make the action hard to cycle. As to why it wouldn't stay locked up, I guess the lever and locking bolt just got loose and distorted enough that the lever detent didn't engage in its slot properly and the lever and locking bolt wanted to drop. Pure conjecture on my part-just trying to visualize what went wrong."

It would have been nice if the experimenter explained the "failure" as well.

However, it is still possible the Marlin was generating more pressure because all barrels and chambers are not the same due to machining tolerances and perhaps even a little human error. I'd say if the tests were performed multiple times, with the same M94 vs. M336 results, (even w/o pressure instrumentation) then the repeatable results would provide credence to the experiment.

Thanks for your input,
MJ

P.S. You should also make sure the experiments are done by an impartial experimenter... one that wouldn't think of creating more headspace in the 336 than the 94 or visa versa. That's were empirical data has it's advantages.

Trailblazer
05-21-2006, 10:00 AM
MJ,

I don't see any evidence of bias toward Winchester or Marlin. Buck points out weaknesses in several designs. For example, he is quite critical of several design features in Win 94's. To wit, the highly angled locking bolt, the cut down receiver walls on the AE and the useless bulges on the sides of the Big Bore.

I think the word "failure" means that the rifles no longer conformed to their design specifications. They are out of spec dimensionally from battering and don't work as designed. I don't think any "blew up" if that's what you are getting at. Maybe an engineer can tell you what the precise meaning of "failure" is in engineering terms.

I probably lost some of the meaning by only saving Buck's posts. Jim T(Taylor) was also involved. I had the thread bookmarked, but something happened to the archives and I can't find the whole thread anymore.

I think what happened was that Freedom Arms was bombarded by requests to rebarrel Winchester 94's and Marlin 336's to 454 Casull. People who wanted the conversion done donated rifles to Freedom Arms to test. I can't see any reason that Freedom Arms would have any bias toward one or the other. They are a business and if they could have increased their business by converting Winchesters or Marlins to safely fire their cartridge, they would have done it. It sounds like Buck thought the Win 86/71 was suitable but it doesn't make any sense to convert it to 454 because the action is so big.

Have you seen the levergun Wild West Guns developed? It looks like they mated the Marlin 336 and the Winchester 86. They look like they have the general receiver, bolt and lever layout of the 336 and the locking bolt design of the 86 and even the bulged sides of the Big Bore. Ugly as sin to my eye but it is capable of handling the thumper cartridges.

I did some work on a Winchester Big Bore last year. I rebarreled it with a shortened 7mmRM barrel and tested it with shortened magnum brass. I am not impressed by the capabilities of these lever actions by modern standards. I don't believe I would have done any better with a Marlin. I did a little write up here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1282
The picture link is broken and I can't edit it so here it is:
http://www.hunt101.com/img/339610.jpg (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=339610&c=500&z=1)

6pt-sika
05-21-2006, 10:18 AM
Trailblazer , I am a 7-30 Waters user from way back and am in the process of building one on a mid 60's 336 action .
But I've been thinking for about a year now about making a 6.5-30 Waters AI . I like 7mm's fine but I like 6.5mm's even more so . There is a guy on leverguns.com that has been working on a 6.5mm based on the 348 WIN case . He was building his gun on a Marlin 1895 action . He also was trying to get Marlin to look at his work and possibly manufacture . At the time we emailed back and forth , he was telling me he had one or two bullet manufacturers talked into making him some flatnosed 6.5mm bullets for trial and possible later production .
I would like to see him get his idea worked out and with bullets available then I could get another 336 and make a 6.5-30 AI .And one of his 6.5-348's as well :drinks:

Trailblazer
05-21-2006, 11:02 AM
6pt,

I like 6.5's too. But then I like 'em all.

Would that guy be JohnM? Based on my experience and what I have been able to find from other experimenters, I am really skeptical about his chances for succeeding with his project. But, who knows? I have been waiting for a follow up report on his project. I hope it works out.

StarMetal
05-21-2006, 11:25 AM
Based on the low popularity of the 260 Remington and all the other factory 6.5 caliber cartridge that came and went in this country (except maybe for the 264 Win Mag) I doublt that a 6.5 leveraction round is going to fly. Also there were two new rounds for Special Ops over in Iraq and Afghanistan...the 6.8 Remington (270 cal) and the 6.5 Grendel. You hear more mention of the 6.8 then you do the Grendel round even though the 6.5 Grendel is a much more superior cartridge. 6.5 has never been a real popular caliber in the United States. Sure, don't get me wrong, there are alot of peole that like it, including me, but in general they never succeed.

Joe

Marlin Junky
05-21-2006, 02:56 PM
Trailblazer,

There is no precise meaning of the term failure, that needs to be defined by the experimenter which is one of the problems I had with the report. Failure is subjective and always with respect to something. However, now that I understand the intent of the experiment I also have a better understanding of the experimenter's usage of failure. I understand that both the M94 and the M336 in their factory form failed to be adequate for the purpose of converting to the .454. Notice I said factory form because Marlin receivers are not super hard. I don't know how hard they are on the Rockwell scale but I believe they can be made harder. I don't know this for sure but have heard it from a couple gunsmiths that have been around longer than I. If you heat them up and drop them in oil they will become harder but I don't know the proper temperature and I also don't know if there is the possibility of making them brittle but don't think the receivers contain enough carbon for that to happen. Maybe there's a gunsmith/metallurgist out there that can straighten me out.

Yeah, I have seen the Wild West gun and IMHO, it's an abomination... but I'd still like to have one in 500S&W :-)

MJ

6pt-sika
05-21-2006, 03:49 PM
Based on the low popularity of the 260 Remington and all the other factory 6.5 caliber cartridge that came and went in this country (except maybe for the 264 Win Mag) I doublt that a 6.5 leveraction round is going to fly. Also there were two new rounds for Special Ops over in Iraq and Afghanistan...the 6.8 Remington (270 cal) and the 6.5 Grendel. You hear more mention of the 6.8 then you do the Grendel round even though the 6.5 Grendel is a much more superior cartridge. 6.5 has never been a real popular caliber in the United States. Sure, don't get me wrong, there are alot of peole that like it, including me, but in general they never succeed.

Joe


You are quite correct the majority of the people in this country that "hunt" will normally go somewhere like Walmart and buy an 06 , 7 MAG , 300 Mag , 270 etc...
These are your once a year hunters in most instances .


However I do not follow the mainstream . I had never hunted or killed a deer with the 30-06 until 2004 and I've been hunting since 1969 . Also hadn't hunted or killed a deer with the 308 until this past season. I am a confirmed 30-30 user now , but that didn't start until about 2002 ( had never hunted with one until then) . The first 30 cal that I am really big on happens to be the 300 Ren Short Ultra Mag . I've taken over 20 deer with one of these since they first came out.
However I bought the first Remington Stainless Model 7 in 260 REM that was around here and have killed about 30 deer with it to date. Also had a stainless 700 in 260 , a Savage Striker in 260 and now finally got a Remington XP-100R in 260 REM .
But thats not the only 6.5 I've fooled with . Had a couple 264 WIN MAGS that would drive tacks . Had an old flat bolt Ruger 77R in 6.5mm REM MAG.
As I said in another post if I were not fixated on Marlin's (and REM BOLTS) , I would get a pair of Browning BLR's one in 325 WSM and the other in one of the WSM calibers and then rebarrel to 6.5-300WSM. But then again I wouldn't turn down the same pair of calibers in the new Remington 7CDL as well .

StarMetal
05-21-2006, 04:36 PM
I've probably killed most my deer with the 7mm-08 Sako Mannlicher Carbine I have. Then after that I'd have to say my 45-70 Browning Winnie 1886. The rest of the calibers in my gun safe I go eeenie meeenie minie moe and pick one. Have killed deer with alot of different calibers and most of them military calibers and rifles.

I like the 6.5, I'd like to see it catch on more.

Getting back on topic somewhat, how down Taurus or whoever owns the Rossi/Puma 92 Winchester clones get their 454 rifles to succeed when there's alot less metal everywhere in that design? Also the 92's have tapared locking lugs, whereas the 1886 doesn't. We're not talking about alot of taper here. I have read when the 92 is pushed passed the design limit the bolt tends to try to ride over top the locking lugs whereas again in the 1886 this doesn't happen to the same degree because of the small differences in the locking lugs and bolt design. Winchester didn't copy the 92 100 percent from the 1886 in making it smaller.

Joe

Bucks Owin
05-28-2006, 11:31 AM
Our club's levergun silhouette match has died, at least until somebody steps forward and volunteers to run the match. I do enjoy shooting the 30-30 and cast bullets at the steel targets so I decided to give it a try on the 500 meter silhouette range.


Gee, too bad you don't live up here in the North state!

I shoot IHMSA Field Pistol over at the Hat Creek Club (near Burney) and they seem to have a pretty good turnout for levergun sillywet....Nice facility!

Be happy to put you up if you wanted to come up for a shoot.

Dennis

Trailblazer
05-29-2006, 09:55 AM
Bucks,

Thanks for the gracious offer. It would be nice to revisit the north state but it is a long way to go to shoot! Our match has been revived now and I shot it a couple weeks ago.