Blue Dot warning..... is this why??

[dakotashooter2]

A recent article in shooting times(?) has me somewhat questioning this warning. Note that I'm not infering it should be ignored but wondering if what I read might apply to the 41 mag in this case. As we all know the piezoelectric transducer system method of pressure testing is replacing the copper units of pressure (CUP) method as it gives a more accurate picture of pressures. For the most part the two methods PSI vs CUP are not interchangable and can't be transposed. However the article I read did indicate that the CUP method was only capable of taking a single reading while the new transducer method is capable of tracking pressure throughout it's curve. As a result it recorded short term pressure spikes that often were not recorded under the CUP method. As a result loads which have proven safe for years (under CUP and field conditions) are being shown as overpressure in PSI. The theory is that the pressure spikes are of such short duration that they have never caused a problem even though new testing methods show them as ovepressure. I can't say I ever saw any signs of pressure when using blue dot whatsoever in the 41 mag in the last 20 years. Given that the recomendation is to not use B-dot in the 41 at all I have to speculate that this may be an example of that scenario. Even if B-dot was changed a bit dropping it outright wouldn't make much sense unless such a problem was percieved.

[jhrosier]

I'm 95% convinced that this is a case of too much information and lawyers running the powder companies.
As you mentioned, the CUP measurement left us in blissful ignorance for a long time.
I don't know whether this was good or not, but back in the day, the results of extensive test firing and CUP data seemed to keep most of us from accidentlly blowing ourselves up.
It seemed to work pretty well.
Nowadays, ammo performance seems to be constantly pushed higer, but to a much more stringent standard. Since most handloaders don't have access to strain gauge pressure data, but regulary use the new powder formulations, are we in more danger than previous generations?
It makes me more likely to stick to the 'old' powders, but then some of the 'old' powders now have 'new' formulations.

No, I don't have the answers either, but this is not the first time that I have thought about the problem. I tried Blue Dot in several pistol calibers and it showed signs of having a very small pressure 'knee'. That is the part of the pressure curve where pressure increases rapidly with very small increases in charge weight. It was enough to make me put the can back on the shelf in favor of Unique for midrange loads and H110 for heavy loads.

If I am being too cautious, so be it. The possible extra performance is not worth my peace of mind.


Jack

[oneokie]

Your post is confusing.


wondering if what I read might apply to the 41 mag in this case


recomendation is to not use B-dot in the 41 at all

The warning that is posted on the Alliant site cautions about using B-D for light weight bullets in two calibers.

If you have some Blue Dot that you are concerned about, contact Alliant and have the lot numbers and dates on the containers to provide to Alliant.

I have several containers of B-D that have been acquired over several years. I contacted Alliant and they requested the lot numbers and dates on the containers. After providing that information to Alliant, they told me that the various lots of B-D that I have were not affected by the safety notice.

[leadman]

Just checked the Alliant site again. The warning is for 125gr. bullets in the 357 magnum and no loads are approved with BlueDat in the 41 magnum.
Do what you want with the info.

[Ole]

I think if you have a proven load, using BD, that's been shown as safe, you should ignore this and keep using it.

That's just me though.

[AZ-Stew]

The most recent lots of Blue Dot burn faster than the old lots. There is a lot of load data in the field developed using the old powder lots. Alliant doesn't want folks using that data with the new lots of powder. They create excessive pressure.

That's it in a nutshell. I've seen it in a couple of recent magazine articles.

Regards,

Stew

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
When I was shooting steel 82-84 I bought a 41 DW Revolver for a bit more Slam on the rams. I tried Blue Dot as I was working loads and found with a 210 (the most accurate in my DW) BD got real pressure sensitve right about where it would start pushing the 210 grain fast enough to fall into that "sweet accuracy velocity" . FLAT mashed primers and case head expansion grew way beyond any other powder tried. Blue Dot never got fired again in any of my 41 ´s.
Mike in Peru

[pdawg_shooter]

I have used BD in my various .357s for years. The 125gr load has worked well. The last can of BD, bought about 2 months ago still works fine. I started low and worked my way back up to where I was before. Me thinks much ado about nothing.

[Calamity Jake]

I started hand loading in 1982, I remember reading something back then about not using light for the caliber bullets and BD.

[Rocky Raab]

Let me ask this rhetorical question: Would we consider IMR 4831 and H4831 to be the exact same powder? They have the same name.

No. Because they are made by different companies, in different plants, by different people, to a different recipe using different ingredients.

Now consider Hercules Blue Dot and Alliant Blue Dot. They have the same name also.

But - now pay attention here - they are made by different companies, in different plants, by different people, to a different recipe using different ingredients.

The Hercules Blue Dot (actually ALL Hercules powders) that you've used for years ARE NO LONGER MADE. Alliant powders are ALL different. Different rules, different loads and different results should be expected.

If your can of powder still says Hercules on it, you may continue to use recipes developed for it. But if your can of powder says Alliant on it, it's is NOT the same powder. You must use recipes and cautions put out by Alliant.

[dakotashooter2]

The most recent lots of Blue Dot burn faster than the old lots. There is a lot of load data in the field developed using the old powder lots. Alliant doesn't want folks using that data with the new lots of powder.

I guess my point was... In other cases where a change in a powder has occured the data was updated/adjusted, which is a logical step. If the current batch is faster why not just adjust the data? Since they are not doing that, one has to assume the problem is elsewhere. In essece they are not telling us B-dot is a marginal powder for the 41 but that it is not suitable at all. I think we all know that something has to be drasticaly wrong if a power, falling within the burning rate of several others in it's category cannot be used within reason to produce a load powders on either side of it are being used for. Even if that loading isn't optimum. hence I bring up issue of pressure differences.
Is Blue Dot another case of something that "shouldn't" work but does, dispite what pressure testing and theory would tell us? It wouldn't be the first time experience trumps theory.

FWIW I rarely use B-dot for the 41 anymore anyway. As a handloader somebody "saying no" without any reasoning will always call for a question.

[Rocky Raab]

Your point is a reasonable one. But if Alliant finds that their version of Blue Dot produces undesirable results of some kind, merely adjusting the data might not be good enough. So far, they haven't described exactly what they saw when they re-tested in those cartridges. Whatever it was, it was serious enough to them to make the warning they did. I'm not going to second-guess them, but like many of us I would like to know for sure.

All my current stocks of BD are Hercules brand, so I feel confident with the older data. If and when I change to Alliant (and assuming they haven't tweaked BD to resolve any current issues) I'll work up all new loads for it, based on Alliant data. That seems prudent to me.

[runfiverun]

it could have something to do with case volumne and bore ratio.
like, you know, the expansion of the gas overruns it's ability to expand in the bbl.
causing the powder to burn at an even greater rate creating more gas than the metal can contain.
er sumthin like that.

[AZ-Stew]

.

I guess my point was... In other cases where a change in a powder has occured the data was updated/adjusted, which is a logical step. If the current batch is faster why not just adjust the data?...

It's not a matter of developing new data. That could easily be done. The problem is all the OLD data out there and uninformed handloaders using that data with the currently produced powder. Generally speaking, we don't buy a new handloading manual each time we buy a new can of powder.

Regards,

Stew

[Rocky Raab]

Bingo, Stew. Give the man a seegar.

[Lloyd Smale]

there made in the same factory, same plant. there was just a buy out and a new name. I havent used bluedot since the 70s. I never did like how easily it went from mild to wild with just a small increase in charge weight. Its not a stable powder for loading top end handgun loads.
Let me ask this rhetorical question: Would we consider IMR 4831 and H4831 to be the exact same powder? They have the same name.

No. Because they are made by different companies, in different plants, by different people, to a different recipe using different ingredients.

Now consider Hercules Blue Dot and Alliant Blue Dot. They have the same name also.

But - now pay attention here - they are made by different companies, in different plants, by different people, to a different recipe using different ingredients.

The Hercules Blue Dot (actually ALL Hercules powders) that you've used for years ARE NO LONGER MADE. Alliant powders are ALL different. Different rules, different loads and different results should be expected.

If your can of powder still says Hercules on it, you may continue to use recipes developed for it. But if your can of powder says Alliant on it, it's is NOT the same powder. You must use recipes and cautions put out by Alliant.

[Jbar4Ranch]

I always thought Paco Kelly was off base claiming that Blue Dot was THE powder to use in the .41 mag.

[leadman]

When I spoke to the ballistics guy (manager, I think) he said they are working on new data. This was about 3-4 months ago. I told him of my past experiences with BD in the 41 and what I was using it for now so I loaded some boolits with a midrange load and fired them. Called him back and gave him the case measurements and velocities and my comments on how dirty the new BD is in a revolver.
He thanked me and said they are working on new data.
I am still using it in light loads in rifles and it burns as clean as the old BD.

[Rocky Raab]

I'm waiting for a reply about what is made where and when the change/move (if any) was made. I'd sure like to know for sure.