Hmmm ... what would you do?

[Blackwater]

I finally got my round tuit to sit down and really slug the bores and throats of my Moisen M-44 and the Enfield #4. The Moisen ran .3015" bore and .314" groove at both ends with maybe as big as a .315" throat. The darn Enfield is a 2-groover, and The throat runs .312/.319", and the muzzle is .308 bore & .319 groove.

I don't have a mould that'll throw .30 cals. that big, but I do have a RCBS 8mm 170 gr. FPGC mould that might be sized down to .319-.320". Using soft lead, it may cast as small as .321-.322". I dunno. Haven't cast a bullet with it yet, but that's my next step. Surely I need to see what it'll do. Don't know if the loaded rounds with that big a slug would fit the chamber neck, but it's worth investigating, I think.

Though I just now have this info, I thought I'd see if any of you have any suggestions. Can I have the chamber neck reamed out or maybe ground out, so as to fit the big bullets (IF, of course, they won't as is), or would you turn the case necks thin enough to fit?

The bore needs some fire lapping, too, to get it smoothed out. Apparently, this one's been around the world and back again several times, and may have been rode hard and put away wet once too often as well.

There's a neat #4 Mk I at the gunshop for a reasonable price that has a 4-groove barrel, and the PH flip up micrometer sight as well. I'm thinking I may be well advised to trade this one off. What would you do there? Can't have both right now. Too darn many projects going on, and the money's thin when spread around at the moment.

Ain't all this FUN! What was it Shakespere said about such "sweet sorrows?"

[BruceB]

If you look closely, that "4-groove" barrel on the #4 in the shop is most likely a five-groover, as that was the standard barrel for the lee-enfields. Two-groove barrels were instituted as a wartime speed-up measure.

This makes getting accurate bore dimensions very difficult, because instead of having land-opposing-land inside the barrel as most these days do. Instead, you end up measuring land-to-groove if you try measuring the normal way.

Go ask the Brits "why?" While you're asking, see if you can find out why a ".404" Jeffery has EITHER a .418" OR a .423" groove diameter??? Neither bore size bears any relation to "404".

Have fun with the .303s, and don't get discouraged. The two-groove barrels have a rather good reputation for shoting cast bullets.

[Ricochet]

The Brits usually named their cartridges for the bore dimension before the rifling was cut. A good many Continental and American cartridges are likewise. Naming them for the bullet diameter is a rather modern innovation.

[Blackwater]

Bruce, thanks. I only gave it a cursory glance, mainly to see if it was clean, but there was a lot of crap in it. I think I'll go back monday with a rod and brush and patches, and see what it looks like. .319" is a REALLY fat .30! That 170 gr. .32 cal. mould might be really interesting, though, but if the bore's good on that #4, it won't stay there very long. There are several .303 fans about here, and good ones don't stay in the shop very long at all. That PH sight makes it a neat one to pick up, if I can. I really need to get out and shoot that #4 of mine, but weather, illness and playing with the grandson has kept me from it thus far. Have an elderly friend that also has a M-44, and we're planning on playing with those together, and he's waiting on warm weather. At 87, I let him make those decisions. Respect your elders, and all that, right? Have some ammo loaded and ready to go when he is, though. He'll have a BIG time with these cast bullets. Has never shot them before. May have us a convert!

So .... would you turn the necks and try that 8mm FPGC, trade, or what????

[swheeler]

BW; I'd buy the sizer dies I needed and size those 8mm boolits down to appropiate sizes needed.

[Buckshot]

..................Blackwater, you're not in such dire straits with a .319" groove. Merely get a 32 boolit (.321") and/or 8mm. Most 8mm's will drop depending upon alloy at .324/.325". Size to .320-.321" if the throat will stand it.

I've sized .325" Loverins to .314" and they shot well.

One reason given for the odd 5 lands and grooves is that lead displaced by a land finds it's way into the opposing groove. Sounds good to me, but I don't know if that really happens or is a benefit. To be sure, displaced lead DOES have to go somewhere, eh?

BTW, a 5 groove barrel of 5 equal width lands and grooves of .300x.308" is a much tighter barrel then a 4 groove Mauser/Springfield type. A 5 groove of .300x.308" has an average diameter of .304". A 4 groove of .300x.308" averages .3064".

The 5 groove has .0024" more material around the circumfrence to move, in this example.

....................Buckshot

[floodgate]

Buckshot:

"One reason given for the odd 5 lands and grooves is that lead displaced by a land finds it's way into the opposing groove. Sounds good to me, but I don't know if that really happens or is a benefit. To be sure, displaced lead DOES have to go somewhere, eh?"

The reason I have heard for some makers preferring the odd number of grooves is that it provides direct back-up for the rifleing tool cutting head. Makes sencse to me.

floodgate

[StarMetal]

Floodgate,

That reason you posted does make alot of sense.

Joe

[bruce drake]

I have a 7.7 Arisaka that shot horrible with standard .310-.312 jacketed bullets. In desperation I turned to cast bullets. Using both LEE's 170gr RN .323 and a Herters 179gr Spitzer in .323, I've since sized the bullets down to .314 and the rifle shoots the ten-ring out at 50 yards now. Moving back to 100 still keeps me in the black on a standard Reduced Course NRA Target. ThHis is over 12.0 grains of Red Dot with the bullets gas-checked and lubed with my Crayola Special Lube (a wonderful shade of orange this year).

Before you trade away what might be a keeper, do some experimenting if you've got the time. You might be surprised at what it will do to your groups to match a bullet to the barrel.

Bruce

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'm now trying to figure out if I can keep the big one AND get the new one. Nothin' like a matched pair, eh? The one with the PH sight at the gunshop would save me from ordering one for the one I already have.

My 'smith is making a VERY neat stock for the Brits that's sort'a a cross between an English and a German design, and it REALLY feels nice. VERY nice. He's using bondo and whatever to get it just so, and then he's going to send it to a friend with a pantographh to duplicate these stocks. It's going to have a cheekpiece, no monte carlo, slim schnabble forend, and generally very svelte conformation. The grip is always the thing that really makes a rifle feel quick and nimble, when combined with good wt. distribution, and this one's going to be a real winner.

I can't wait to be one of his first customers. His is a #1, which will make up into a lighter sporter than my #4, but I'll be satisfied with a #4 that shoots. It'll probably wind up being my mainmost cast bullet shooter, with the Moisen being my "truck gun" cast bullet shooter that'll always be there.

If I do wind up keeping this #4, I think I'm going to have to fire lap the barrel. It's not exactly really smooth, and I think a good firelapping will make it a better shooter for cast. I've really come to like the Enfields for their slickness and fast bolt operation. Then too, who wouldn't want one, or SOME sort of "Ghost and the Darkness" rifle after seeing the movie, right? If Jack gets that pattern stock finished, it'll be close enough for my purposes.

Thanks for the input. It's always the initial decisions of what gun to get that determine where all else winds up possibly leading us, and I'm as bad as it gets when it comes to giving up one I already have for another. Just have to wretch over it before I let one go. Outside input sometimes helps. I really think the one at the shop has a significantly better bore, and that's a big factor in shooting cast in anything. Any other type bullets, too, of course. Decisions, decisions!