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Hackleback
02-11-2006, 10:20 PM
I have a chance to buy a pristine (almost too pristine to be true) 71/84 Mauser rifle. Don't know anything about reloading for it. I do know it is a BP round and the bore should be 43 cal (+-) will slug. What about brass? can it be formed from 45-70 or some other avalible brass or will I need to buy expensive imported brass to reload. Any help would be useful.

Thank you.

Frank46
02-12-2006, 04:01 AM
Get a copy of the midway catalog, I believe that they have 43 mauser brass available. Lyman does make one mold for the 43 mauser. Or you could do a web search and see what comes up. Midway might have bertram brass in that caliber. Don't know what it will cost though. Frank

Buckshot
02-12-2006, 06:43 AM
.................Graf & Midway both carry Bertram brass for the 43 Mauser. Also check Buffalo Arms. They fabricate it from 348 Winchester. It's less expensive and works just as well. Go to Lee or CH-4D for the dies.

For load data it's real difficult 8), use 45-70 data for the Trapdoor Springfield for comparable boolit wieghts. It's that simple.

Lyman and RCBS both make a mould for the 43 Mauser. You can also use a 370gr mould for the 43 Spanish (.439") and paper patch it to .446" (nominal M71/84 groove). You should slug the barrel of your new repeater first to be sure of what you need.

Lyman also makes 2 moulds that will work, but are intended for the Whitworth and Volunteer muzzle loaders. Both are similar Loverin designs being FNPB's. One for the Whitworth is 475grs and the other is 450. They drop at about .452". Lube-size to .451" and then run them up through a .446" push through, or whatever the loaded case will allow in your rifle's chamber.

Finally, you should be aware that many of these old BPCR's had throats and chambers so tight as to almost preclude the use of groove+ bullet OD's. They depended upon the BP charge to upset the boresized slug into the grooves.

I have a 1871 and a M71/84 Repeater. and both are accurate fun to shoot rifles.

....................Buckshot

Junior1942
02-12-2006, 08:45 AM
Anybody got a link to one of these rifles? I'd like to see what they look like.

trooperdan
02-12-2006, 10:35 AM
http://www.militaryrifles.com/Germany/71-84Mau.htm

Urny
02-12-2006, 10:59 AM
Nice site, trooperdan, one not in my milsurp non-dealer folder.

Hackleback
02-12-2006, 11:10 AM
Reform from 348 win., just what I wanted to hear! Spending $40/20 pcs of brass just kills me (for Bertran, Bell....). Sweet looking rifle, cromed/very bright bolt, stacking hook... and a very blonde stock. Looks like it was made yesterday (no pitting) with a few handling marks. I think I will persue this further.

Thanks for the info.

trooperdan
02-12-2006, 11:21 AM
Interestingly, the "new" Old Western Scrounger" is selling M1871/84 parts guns for $40. They also have the pre-1888 commission rifles at 12 for $200! Gauranteed to be incomplete, rusty and unbelievably filthy! They are in Martinsburgh WV now and I suspect are owned by Gibbs.

http://ows-ammo.com/catalog/

I have two of the 71/84's, one sporterized and one needing a mag spring and follower. I'm near biting on a couple of their parts guns, just can't resist an opportunity to rehabilitate an old warrior!

Baron von Trollwhack
02-12-2006, 01:44 PM
Hello Hackleback. I too have one of those pristine 71/84s and have shot it occasionally for many years. The CH4D dies and shellholders work fine and the shellholder will let you prime on a press priming system. The barrel on mine was stamped with the groove diameter (10.15mm, I believe) and it was dead on at .446". The Rcbs 43-370-fn is the proper mould and wheel weights shoot well in the 1450-1500fps range with 77 grains 3f goex. Imr 4227 works very well too with a smokeless lube. I use a 1/2 square of toilet paper wad with the 4227. I am using BELL basic brass cases and despite many, many reloads have not lost a case. Maybe they are still available if you search, including Dixie. Basic brass forms easily in the F/L die but needs shortened. I only neck size partially, bell the case very slightly for seating and do not crimp. I set loaded OAL at 3.02". Bell cases will last long and give great results. I have also patched .432 240 grain slugs up a little to shoot as express type loads with acceptable accuracy as the throat will swage them down in shooting. My best is 3" at 100yards off sandbags. I replaced the front sight with a taller one and shoot off the 250 meter leaf. The rifle is a wonderful weapon. Goods shooting.

Buckshot
02-13-2006, 06:36 AM
Reform from 348 win., just what I wanted to hear! Spending $40/20 pcs of brass just kills me (for Bertran, Bell....). Sweet looking rifle, cromed/very bright bolt, stacking hook... and a very blonde stock. Looks like it was made yesterday (no pitting) with a few handling marks. I think I will persue this further.

Thanks for the info.

...........I'm not suggesting all you have to do is run a 348 WInchester up into a 43 Mauser dies by any means! T'ain't that simple, by a long shot. However Buffalo Arms uses them as basic brass to start with. There is substantial work involved. It's not like making 303 Brit into 30-40 Krag or 30-06 into 35 Whelen.

I'm a bit jaded on brass prices and the 'on sale' price for 43 Spanish and 43 Mauser at $32/20 isn't too bad. Not when you've paid $108/20 for 577-450!

.................Buckshot

Frank46
02-14-2006, 04:01 AM
OUCH, oh well there goes the beer money. Frank

Scotty
02-15-2006, 02:54 PM
What about 577-450 reformed from CBC 24 gauge brass shells for $30/25....



Scotty, :redneck:

Buckshot
02-17-2006, 03:44 AM
What about 577-450 reformed from CBC 24 gauge brass shells for $30/25....



Scotty, :redneck:

That is certainly a friendly price and no doubt. However, it wasn't an option when I was accumilating brass for my Martini. I've heard people badmouth Bertram on some stuff before, but I have zero issues with the 577-450 brass. I have a couple lots of 20 cases with well over 30 firings on'em and not a whimper. I've got about 80 turned cases from the old Red Willow Armory, but I'm afraid to use'em 8)

Longevity would be my only concern with eh converted shotshells. However I also use them for a Snider and the Comblain and they appear to be tough enough so long as no major resizing is done.

..............Buckshot

rocklock
02-19-2006, 01:04 AM
Here's some results with cast boolits and smokeless powder...

http://kneiper.tripod.com/Range3-27.htm

trooperdan
02-19-2006, 12:18 PM
Buffalo Arms muct have dropped their price; I just ordered 50 .43 Mauser cases reformed from .358 Win (I believe ) for $44 plus shipping. He also said that Jamison brass is supposed to be on the market soon. They will be making new brass in this caliber as well as 577/450 MH at a significant savings over todays prices.

Huffmanite
02-20-2006, 03:33 AM
Hi, very new to this forum. Trackofthewolf.com has 43 Spanish brass (from 348Win) for 1.35 each, but not 43 Mauser. 40 years ago a buddy and I both bought 43 Spanish rolling blocks, but couldn't find any ammo. Found 385 grain bullet 43 Mauser ammo factory made in Canada specifically for 1871 Mauser. Desperate to shoot our RBs, we decided to shoot the 43Mauser ammo. Hooked up a lanyard and put about 10 rounds thru each rifle. Used the fireformed cases to reload. I fired about 60 rounds of 43 Mauser in my RB back then.

guninhand
03-13-2006, 05:09 AM
I was shooting my 71/84 today and had a bad experience. Previously I had fired a 340 grain bullet from a Rapine mold using Blue angel lube and 30 grs IMR 3031 and got pretty good results at 100yds.

I got a pile of loose FFg for free a while ago and I don't recall the manufacturer (I scooped the free stuff from a drum). I thought it would be a hoot to try the BP so I loaded up rounds using Bell, Bertram and Dominion brass.

I had the bullets lubed with SPG, however the grooves on the bullet don't really hold a lot of lube. The only BP experience I had previous to this was with a Ruger Old Army revolver where I put gobs of Cirsco over the charge holes.

To make a long story short, after 15 rounds I had a case failure. The load was 77 grains of FFg and it appears the reason for failure was BP fouling that built up enough to be a bore obstruction after just 15 rounds.

I say this because when I went to clean the gun I couldn't push a patched 40 cal jag down the bore I had to tap the end of the cleaning rod with a mallet. I'm guessing there was insufficent lube to keep the fouling soft. The Dominion case, while probably made in the '40s or 50s, had only been fired once before, i.e. the factory stuffings. It didn't separate in two parts like with head space problems but had a gap very close to the base going about half around the circumference, i.e. the blowout was not lengthwise.

While reloading the cases I had touched them to a vibrating tumbler to settle the BP down, then inserted a PVC wad ( about 0.22 in thick)

Previous to this I had shot a bunch of 777ffg in 45 Colt cases in other guns and had good results using a PVC wad between the 777 and bullet base, and this is what I had for a wad in the failed case, thinking that what worked for 777 would work for BP.

Accuracy was very poor, 7 inches at 50 yds, from the very start.

Yeah, it's embrassing too.

trooperdan
03-13-2006, 12:51 PM
I haven't researched this at all, this is just "off the top of my head" but is it possible your Dominon brass had mercuric primer in it? I don't recall when factories switched from the mercury fulminate priming material but I think some were still using it in the 40's. Mercury compounds made the brass brittle, it wasn't much of a problem in the early days using black powder as the fouling somewhat protected the case from the mercury but when smokeless came in mercury was a serious problem.

Bigjohn
03-13-2006, 08:18 PM
I was shooting my 71/84 today and had a bad experience. Previously I had fired a 340 grain bullet from a Rapine mold using Blue angel lube and 30 grs IMR 3031 and got pretty good results at 100yds.

I got a pile of loose FFg for free a while ago and I don't recall the manufacturer (I scooped the free stuff from a drum). I thought it would be a hoot to try the BP so I loaded up rounds using Bell, Bertram and Dominion brass.

I had the bullets lubed with SPG, however the grooves on the bullet don't really hold a lot of lube. The only BP experience I had previous to this was with a Ruger Old Army revolver where I put gobs of Cirsco over the charge holes.

To make a long story short, after 15 rounds I had a case failure. The load was 77 grains of FFg and it appears the reason for failure was BP fouling that built up enough to be a bore obstruction after just 15 rounds.

I say this because when I went to clean the gun I couldn't push a patched 40 cal jag down the bore I had to tap the end of the cleaning rod with a mallet. I'm guessing there was insufficent lube to keep the fouling soft. The Dominion case, while probably made in the '40s or 50s, had only been fired once before, i.e. the factory stuffings. It didn't separate in two parts like with head space problems but had a gap very close to the base going about half around the circumference, i.e. the blowout was not lengthwise.

While reloading the cases I had touched them to a vibrating tumbler to settle the BP down, then inserted a PVC wad ( about 0.22 in thick)

Previous to this I had shot a bunch of 777ffg in 45 Colt cases in other guns and had good results using a PVC wad between the 777 and bullet base, and this is what I had for a wad in the failed case, thinking that what worked for 777 would work for BP.

Accuracy was very poor, 7 inches at 50 yds, from the very start.

Yeah, it's embrassing too.
There are a lot of cast projectile designs out there on the market which will not hold enough lube in their grooves to keep Black powder fouling soft. One option is to place a thin card wad (punched from milk carton) over the powder then drop in a 'Pea' sized amount of lube in before seating the projectile.
The second option is to swab the barrel between shots. The third would be to invest in a mold for a more suitable projectile.

wills
03-13-2006, 08:52 PM
http://www.buffaloarms.com/search.htm?step=2&viewfrom=1&numresults=10&searchterm=ribbon

Newfoundlander2
07-31-2008, 11:58 PM
I haven't researched this at all, this is just "off the top of my head" but is it possible your Dominon brass had mercuric primer in it? I don't recall when factories switched from the mercury fulminate priming material but I think some were still using it in the 40's. Mercury compounds made the brass brittle, it wasn't much of a problem in the early days using black powder as the fouling somewhat protected the case from the mercury but when smokeless came in mercury was a serious problem.

Sorry for dredging up an old thread but it bears mentioning that Dominion 43 Mauser cases are balloon headed and have thin bases. If the case doesnt fail on the first reloading chances are it will by the second or third. I bought a case of '70s vintage ammo a few years back and the first thing I did was pull the head and cross section a case to see if "newer" CIL cases had the same affliction as the firm's older offerings. Not surpisingly it was also balloon headed and thin in the base.

TAWILDCATT
08-01-2008, 04:51 PM
GIBBS RIFLE ,NAVY ARMS,VAL FORGETT ALL THE SAME.I have two of those 84s and they must have stripped them not to long ago,the parts are all over so you have to hunt and pay up.bolt heads are hard to find and extracters.
gun parts have mag springs but no followers.they also have new made stocks.
you can make shells from 45/70 or 45/90.45/70 are short at the neck and may need rim trimed to fit in the carrier.
mercury was stopped in early 1900 for that reason. corrosive primers have potassium clorate priming.I have one original unfired shell dated 1887.I took it apart in the 50s.I had a carbine and 2 boxes of shells, all fired.:coffee:

Southwestern Canuck
09-08-2008, 09:00 PM
I too have a 71/84, with full matching P/Ns throughout, that lost its extractor and had the original stock damaged enough that it needs replacement, due to a failure of a Dominion 11.15x60 case right at the junction of the rim and case body, when handling a relatively light load (60 grains of 777 behind a Lyman cast 370 gr bullet).

So, with regard to the notes from "Trooperdan", "Bigjohn", and "Newfoundlander2", I can confirm problems with Dominion brass failing right ahead of the rim, on relatively light loads. Actually a bit of an upsetting experience, made me very thankful about wearing eye protection, and that I wasn't shooting the smokeless loads I had also worked up for this rifle (which previously had shot cleanly and well, with no indications of any pending failures).

For the brass that failed, this was only the second time these had been reloaded (the original factory loads, then one time through using 46 gr of 4064 behind the 370 gr cast bullet. then finally the 60 grain load of 777 behind that same bullet. No barrel fouling present (the shot actually hit where I placed it). I pulled the bullets from the remaining 9 loads, the deprimed and "autopsied" the cases. Nothing was visible on the outside, but the inside of several cases showed hairline cracks circumferentially above and below the "balooned" portion at the rim. Has made me come to a shuddering halt on using these cases at all. Interestingly, I have a few "Imperial" cases that are fine (not formed the same way as the Dominion cases, no baloon section involved). I too will be going to some completely new cases, probably the Bell ones (had good service with them on my 577/450).

Bottom line, I can recommend staying away from the Dominion cases, or any other case that is formed in the same manner, you simply have no way to tell when it might be ready to let go. And when these fail at the rim like they are prone to do, that gets a whole lot nastier to the shooter than a lengthwise split further into the chamber.

SDM

arclight
09-08-2008, 10:22 PM
I guess I got lucky when I bought one of the "mostly complete" 71/84's from SOG. :)

Is anyone interested in a repro magazine follower? I'll pull mine out and mic it when I get in this week. I think I could machine a replacement part fairly reasonably.

Arclight

EchoSixMike
09-10-2008, 02:13 PM
I've had excellent results with the RCBS bullet of 20:1, 35gns of 3031 in Bertram brass. S/F.....Ken M

TAWILDCATT
09-11-2008, 09:17 PM
I made one cart from 45/70.had to skim the rim.45/90 should work.
the guns from OWS/navy arms/gibbs.cost a lot to rebuild.where do you get the stocks.I just got a firing pin from SARCO $32.gun parts has some parts.they stripped the guns and the parts are all over.gun parts have mag springs but no followers.I think the springs are from something else as they are small dia.:coffee:[smilie=1:

arclight
09-11-2008, 11:42 PM
OK, I disassembled my rifle tonight and measured the follower. I can make this part for $35+shipping. Anyone interested if I do a run?

Arclight

Morgan Astorbilt
09-12-2008, 03:10 AM
The most difficult operation in forming11.15x60R(.43 Mauser)brass from .348 is swaging or turning the head diameter down from .546" to .511". The best way is turning a set of swaging dies, and doing it in several stages in a large vise or hydraulic press. Most samples of "store bought" converted .348 brass in 11.15x60R and in 10.4x47R Vetterli, just had the solid portion of the head turned down. I never trusted this method, and swage all my brass. The .348 rim dia. is OK, at .605 (the .43 is .608).
Morgan

Southwestern Canuck
09-15-2008, 01:09 AM
Morgan,

Appreciate the info on using reformed .348 brass.

Was starting to think about that option upon finding out BELL is no longer producing their 11mm "A" base brass, and that more than one person has raised cautions on using the Bertram 11.15x60R stuff, apparently it is reported to be quite brittle and also prone to failing at the rim area.

Talked to the people at Buffalo, and they provide .43 Mauser cases made from .348 brass, but he didn't indicate if the head area was swaged down, or machined. So the question I have is, does anone know, and/or, has anyone tried their reformed cases?

After seeing the kind of damage a failed rim causes with just a light load, I want to be reasonably sure I've got the best cases possible before I put this carefully restored beastie close to my face again.

Some have suggested using 45-70 brass, but given the relative dimensions of rim and head diameters, I would suspect the 45-120 case would be a better "fit", would only need an 0.011" reduction in rim diameter, and a fair chunk trimmed off the length after forming, but with the head diameter being 0.10 smaller, not too sure if that would be a problem.

Anyone have any thoughts on going this way?

Steve

Pavogrande
09-15-2008, 01:36 AM
I have three new boxes of Dominion 43 mauser -- There is no mention of either mercury or corrosive primers -- In fact just "suitable for 71 mauser" and 385 gr bullet --- Pretty sparse info on box --- Pretty brass though -- I do believe it is newer than the 50's tho --- In another batch of fired cases the dominion cases show no signs of mercury deterioration -- just an observation, nothing proven --

Pavogrande
09-15-2008, 01:42 AM
Sorry did not see page two -- tough to get old :-)

Morgan Astorbilt
09-15-2008, 02:36 AM
Steve, This is a set of dies I turned to form 10.4x47R Vetterli out of .348. The large circular piece is a base to press the case in the swaging dies using one side, and receive the case when pressed out with the rod using the other. Each of the two dies on the top right, has a polished swaging area on each end, giving a total of four steps. The neck expanders are on the bottom. Not pretty, but they were made for me, not a customer, so I just used scrap shafting for the stock, and didn't bother to knurl them.
I no longer use these, since being turned on(by a member of this board) to available 8x50R Lebel brass that just needed fire forming and trimming.
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/dies1.jpg

uscra112
09-16-2008, 11:00 PM
I too have one of those pristine 71/84s. I've had it for several years now, and have yet to shoot it. It's SO perfect that I just can't bring myself to do it. I bought 100 rounds of brass from RCBS, about 5 years ago. No, it's not for sale, but check with them. I get excellent service from RCBS. My first choice whenever I need brass.

Researched it extensively when I first got it.

This rifle model never saw wartime service - too late for the Franco-Prussian war, totally obsolete by WW1. Legend has it that a great many of these came to Canada, although the legend doesn't say when. My guess is post WW2. Canadians cut them down and happily clobbered moose with them. Hence the existence of Dominion branded smokeless ammo for them. ( I have a box. )

The fact is, though, that this rifle was designed for black powder, and a specifically designed for a PAPER PATCHED BOOLIT. I bought about 40 rounds of the original Mauser ammo at a gun show, and that's what it is, sure enough.

My 71/84 does have a tight-neck chamber. Very tight. Idea was to use a boolit would be small for the groove diameter, and would chamber with fouling present. Then it would "slug up" when fired to fit the bore.

Inspection of my OEM ammo reveals an OEM boolit that is pure lead, swaged, (no grooves), with a paper patch. A nekkid slug mikes at about .421 diameter. The OD of a pulled boolit with patch is about .431. (WAY small for the nominal .446 groove diameter! ) Neck diameter of the loaded rounds is only .446. To keep the rounds from rattling around, the chamber neck is therefor small.

This was apparently S.O.P. in that period. Paul Matthews specifically mentions this practice in his book, "The Paper Jacket". It was also used by some USA makers too, as Buckshot points out.

One fellow I know (vaguely) says that he has run a .45-70 reamer into his, to open up the neck. I would never do that to mine.

My take on the 71/84 is to use it as an excuse to get into paper patching ! You couldn't find a better subject.

Good luck with it !

TAWILDCATT
09-17-2008, 11:46 AM
factories changed from mercury primers around 1900.as the new smokless was being used and the cases were coming apart.potasium clorate is the one that is corrosive.

Southwestern Canuck
09-17-2008, 02:23 PM
Hi All;

Been digging into the cause of the case failures I had experienced, and have discovered something a bit strange/discomforting to say the least. All of the cases in my posession are "head stamped" DOMINION 43 MAUSER.

All in all, aside from the cases I'd "autopsied" where I found internal circumferential cracks along the rim, I found three more cases that had actually failed at the rim, in addition to the one that blew the extractor off and turned the stock into scrap. One case had a small (approx .12" long) circumferential split along the rim/case junction, one that not only had a similar split along the rim, but had a crack that had opened up through the rim and almost all the way in to the primer pocket, and one with, effectively, a pinhole at the rim/case junction.

Now for the "strange" bit. All of the cases that failed, and all of the cases that showed hidden internal circumferential cracks, showed rim and head areas that had been cast (yes, CAST) and then machine turned to give the proper rim diameter (and, in some instances, reducing the body diameter just ahead of the rim). The so called "head stamp" on these particular cases was also cast into the head, NOT stamped. and the composition of the case is of a different brass (somewhat more reddish) than the Dominion cases I had obtained from a known good source (Canadian new in the box stuff from the mid '50s).

Over the years, I had picked up these other "Dominion" cases at various gun shows, and I specifically remember buying one set of 10 of these cases as "new" cases at a show in Plattsburg about 10 years ago. Many of these suspect cases also have a rim that is bevelled at approx 30 degrees, with the bevelled area also showing a characteristic cast finish where machining the rim diameter had not removed the surface. A couple of these cases also show the cast finish circumferentially around the primer pocket (if I can get a decent set of closeups, I'll post them here.)

The cases I can vouch for as being original Dominion cases are clearly formed by an extrusion process that leaves a very characteristic "finish" to the head and rim areas, and the head stamping is clean and properly formed, definately not formed following a casting process. None of these "good" cases show any abberations as seen on the failed cases.

Leaves me wondering if the failure cases were "counterfits". They certainly were not produced by the same process as were the verified original cases. I have seen examples of brass cartridge cases produced in Yemen and Pakistan, and both the colouring of the brass and the inconsistencies on finish lead me to suspect these cases may have been produced in such an environment.

To anyone reading this, take a careful look at any "DOMINION 43 MAUSER" cases you may have in you posession, and look for the kinds of things I've found. I would recommend that if you find cases that exhibit cast surfaces in the rim and head areas, or evidence of machining around the rim/case junction, be suspicious, very suspicious. I keep thanking my Maker that I was shooting a light 777 load at the time, and not the 3031 bases loads I'd worked up.


Morgan,

Might take you up on the offer. I looked into the possibility of using that Lebel brass, or, 9x57R Rubin, both good fits, but couldnt find either, and although the 45-120 case is a really close fit to form into an 11.15x60 case, its rim is only .059 thick versis the .07 rim on the .348 case (don't want to mess with the headspacing).

I'll let you know shortly.

Steve

Morgan Astorbilt
09-17-2008, 05:49 PM
Offer???
Steve, I was just showing you what you'd need to swage the cases down. The set for the Vetterli won't swage the cases down far enough for your gun. Someone locally can surely turn a set of swage dies, if you make a chamber casting to see how much you have to bring the case heads down(Chambers vary, and you might get away with a larger base). After swaging,you can the run the cases through a .43 sizing die(if needed), anneal the forward half, and fire form with a fast powder such as Bullseye, and a sheet of TP.

Graf has the 8x50R Lebel brass. Item #GRU8X50R $39.99/100 $189.95/500 $359.91/1000
wwwgrafs.com
800/531-2666

Oldeyes was the one who turned me on to them, thanks again, pard.


The Lebel brass will need less swaging than the .348Win.(.536" vs. .547") to bring it down to the .511" (or .516") of the .43 Mauser.(Seen both sizes given, Nonte .511", Donnelly .516")That's why I recommend a chamber cast.
Morgan

Southwestern Canuck
09-23-2008, 11:37 PM
Hi Morgan,

Understood, and apologies for misconstruing the earlier message. But good information taken to heart.

As for getting a good "fit", been researching case candidates, and the case that appears to need no swaging to "fit" my chamber is the 45-120 (dia of 0.511 vs chamber dia of 0.513). Also runs through the .43 die set easily, so the only remaining concern is the actual thickness of the case head. Even though the rim thickness in only 0.011 less than the .43 Mauser case rim, the actual thickness of the case head is averaged at 0.094", which matches the bolt face recess, which in turn sits 0.02" away from the barrel face with the bolt closed, for a total distance of 0.096". For those of you that have made cases from brass such as the .348 or the Lebel case, where their total thickness of the case head is that of the rim, does the unsupported excess headspace of approx 0.03" cause any problems? Or, do I need to build up the inside of the recess on the bolt face to reduce headspace to the rim thickness?

Or am I missing something?

Steve

korvettenkapitan
10-26-2008, 08:59 AM
Wish I had come about this site sooner, I too have had a 43 Mauser Dominion Case separate at the base !
It happened on my M71/84 and cracked the otherwise flawless stock as the gasses tried to escape, also the extractor and ejector broke.
I'll inspect my other Dominion cases which I bought some 20 yrs. ago. and have never fired.
Due to my inexperience with loading Pyrodex (or any BP), this might have cause the pressure problem resulting in the case separation at the base. Some how I missed the warning about air space in the cartridge! Safety glasses helped deflect otherwise unintended results.

I have used Dupont 3031 @39grains for years with no problems in both the M71&M71/84.
Have the 2 cavity RCBS Boolit Mold .446 (11mm.) and normally use my old Bell Brass .

Buckshot
10-27-2008, 01:40 AM
korvettenkapitan, welcome to the board! Just something extra special about these old war horse, isn't there?

.................Buckshot

StrawHat
10-27-2008, 12:18 PM
Somewhere in my pile of magazines is an article on loading the 43 Mauser. Written by Ross Seyfried so it was probably in either Hnadloader or Rifle magazine about 8 or 10 years ago. When I find it I'll reference the issue so it can be read.

arclight
10-27-2008, 04:49 PM
There's definitely something fun about shooting a gun made before my Grandpa was alive.

I was out at the Yucca Valley Gun Club 2 weekends ago, and the older fellow running the range said it was the oldest gun anyone had ever brought to the range, as far as he could remember.

I hit a few of the 150 yard gongs with it too, so I can't complain.

Arclight

Buckshot
10-28-2008, 04:01 AM
There's definitely something fun about shooting a gun made before my Grandpa was alive.

I was out at the Yucca Valley Gun Club 2 weekends ago, and the older fellow running the range said it was the oldest gun anyone had ever brought to the range, as far as he could remember.

I hit a few of the 150 yard gongs with it too, so I can't complain.

Arclight

.............You ought to try our range. It's a LOT closer then Jucca Balley :-).

.............Buckshot

TAWILDCATT
11-09-2008, 07:59 PM
I made a cartridge out of 45/70[case]chuck case in lathe and made swipe with file
on rim works fine.Lee sells the dies for 41 swiss and 43 mauser.if you make the cases out of 348 and expand neck you had better anneal the brass.
for those doing this kind of operation I bought a minicut off saw from harbor tool for $29.has 2" steel blade and builtin vise.cuts like butter.:coffee:[smilie=1:

Southwestern Canuck
11-10-2008, 12:27 AM
To all;

The following may look like too much info, but if it stops just one more old one from coming apart on somebody else, it is well worth it.

Been doing some in-depth research into the case failures I experienced that has forced me to me to rebuild my rifle, and getting well into the metallurgy of these "suspect" cases, with some confirmations about some "Dominion" headstamped cases really being counterfeits, and a reasonably consistent way to identify the "bad" ones (at least, consistent within the cases I have on hand here).

The cases to watch out for can only be identified by carefully examining the base for the following telltales (use a jeweler's eye loop, or a similar magnifier). These "counterfeit" cases are made from a casting that is then "drawn" up to make the case body, which is then "bumped" back a bit to form the head/rim junction, and are reportedly coming out of the mid-east somewhere (apparently cost less than 10 cents apiece to make, and the typically sell for anywhere from $1 to $2 each at gun shows, where they have been showing up, so watch out for "new in the box unfired 43 Mauser cases").

1. Look for "distortions" around the primer pocket and the rim. These distortions look somewhat like a bubbly surface that is classic (representative) of a cast surface.

2. Look at the rim/head junction carefully. On the counterfeit cases the rims were turned to even them out and cut them to the right diameter. On many of these cases, the cutter also scored the side of the case just above the rim, but not all the way around, and, that appears to have been be done to "true up" the case body with the head (make it more concentric).

3. Although these cases are an "A" base like the original ones made by Mauser and subsequently by CIL/Dominion (and have virtually identical measurements), a careful look at the rim will also show only part of the rim has been touched with the cutter, and most of those rims have a slight to very noticeable "bevel" that shows distinct signs of having been made by being drawn and then turned from a casting.

4. Look carefully at the "DOMINION" and the "43M" markings. On the counterfeit cases, the corners of the letters are rounded (not sharp like they should be when stamped in) and the surface in the bottom of the letters is not smooth (again, as would be when actually stamped in).

5. The cases I have are made from a softer brass alloy than is used by Western and European cartridge case manufacturers. When unpolished cases are laid side by side, the counterfeits have a slightly more "reddish" tint to them, not easy to discern, but under a bright light the difference can be noticed. Can't be used as the first indicator, but does help confirm them as suspect when the other characteristics are also present.

6. Finally, (and this might be good to do to all your cases) look carefully around the rim/body area of the case, look for a spot discoloration or black pinpoint. This could well be the beginning of a case separation right at the rim. When I did this, I also discovered two cases that had cracks starting form the rim and radiating in towards the primer pocket, that could have failed on the next firing, and would definitely fail soon. Again, these didn't show up by using just the unaided eyeball. The jeweler's loop is essential.


Some comments/thoughts about safe loads and pressures.

The metallurgy in these 71/94 Mausers was excellent for the time. The basic design and metallurgy used by the Mauser Brothers when developing and producing the 71/84 action shows it would handle at least 24,000 PSI when new, but it would be unwise to push these particular oldtimers that far these days. Any one of these "oldies" in good shape can safely handle loads in the 20,000 PSI range such as 35 grains of 4198 or, 45 gr of 3031, behind a 387 gr cast bullet, as stated in several available references (similar to basic loads for the 45-70). My rifle "likes" 45 gr of 3031 behind a 370gr hard cast bullet. others have found milder loads that shoot even more accurately.

When shooting "black" I actually have been using Hodgdon's "777", 60 gr behind the 370 gr bullet with good results. That load develops only about 15,000 PSI. The original German BP load of 70 gr Fg behind the military 300 gr bullet developed approx 11,000 PSI. Fills the case without concerns about compression.

I also got into the whole "headspacing" issue on the 71/84, courtesy of a local gunsmith, which confirmed a concern about the common use of 43 MAUSER cases being made from .348 cases. If you look carefully at the bolt face on the 71/84, you will find the case rim sits in a machined recess in the bolt face that is 0.093" deep, which just happens to be 0.002" deeper than the rim of the original 11.15x60R cases that were designed for the 71/84 Mauser. From the original design and manufacturing measurements, on a properly fitted rifle when the bolt is closed, the end of the bolt face actually just touches the end of the barrel, fully enclosing the case rim, and allowing a real headspace of from 0.002 min to 0.004" max.

Using a reformed .348 case (or, a reformed 45-120 case as I almost did) actually results in a very excessive headspace of approx 0,026", which even after handling only a few BP loads, will fail right at the rim.

The old BELL "A" base cases were right on, but they aren't available any more. I've got a box of Bertram cases on order, and I'm hoping they will match the original spec'd dims for the 11.15x60R case. Otherwise, it looks like I'll be machining cases to ensure I've got the right headspeace, and, give me some added case strength in the head/body junction area. From everything I've read recently, I also suspect the 'bad rap" Bertram cases have been getting may actually be due to the headspace issue on the 71/84, and the difficulty in properly measuring it.

Here's something to think about.

The headspacing on a 71/84 is defined by the depth of the recess on the bolt face AND the length of the bolt end AND the total distance from the back (rear) part of the bolt handle where it mates with the receiver frame PLUS the end of the barrel as it relates to the bolt buildup. Normal wear and tear on any functioning 71/84 will cause wear in these areas, and shooting over the years can cause some "setback" of the back of the bolt handle where it mates with the receiver. On my rifle, we discovered this setback had reached 0.010", which would have never been discovered if I hadn't dug deep into why this rifle failed. Wasn't the cause, but it didn't help either. The headspace problem on my 71.84 is getting fixed through the addition of a 0.010" circular shim between the bolt body and the bolt head. Clean fix, no need to take the barrel out, reseat it and then re-cut the chamber.

As for the stock, I'm getting a custom stock blank made (gave up trying to replace the original stock), and am also having to make a new magazine tube. Can't buy those things. The making of a new magazine tube for the 71/84 is a whole other story.

Still trying to get good closeups of the failed cases. If anyone wants to see them, let me know.

Whew. Didn't mean to write a book, but it is a lot of hard dug info that I wanted to share. Hope you find it useful.

Steve

arclight
11-10-2008, 12:29 PM
Steve,

I have seen aftermarket replacements for the magazine tube on sale at the usual auction sites. Look around, and also check the "completed items," as you might be able to track down the maker.

I was looking into making these as a "shop fund" project while back, until I saw them for sale at a reasonable price online.

Let me know if you need anything for your 71/84. Mien is complete, and I'd be willing to machine you some replacement small parts for the cost of materials.

My 71/84 is currently my favorite shooter, and I can only imagine the sinking feeling that would go with seeign it blow up.
Arclight

Southwestern Canuck
11-13-2008, 12:58 AM
Evening Arclight,

Thanks for the suggestion on possible magazine tube sources, I'll look into the possibility of getting one somehow. In my efforts to come up with a "new" one, i managed to find a commonly available thin-wall steel tube that is very close to the original, and was looking into having an expander button made up to stretch it out to 0.590 ID (as made, its ID is 0.583) to be able to keep the same follower, but there are some real concerns in trying to do this on such a thin walled tube. I have managed to get a new spring, and plan on using a sleeve inserted into the new stock to act as a guide to slide the new magazine tube into (to facilitate cleaning and disassembly). Looks good on paper, and I have run across a couple of custom shotguns that used a similar technique for their magazine tubes, so it should turn out reasonably well. As much as doing this might disturb some purists, I've decided not to try to maintain the rifle's "originality" in the restored shooter, which will have a very conventional looking "Monte Carlo" style stock, with the magazine tube poking out of the stock under the barrel like the 94 Winchester. Will be a good winter project.

Steve

TAWILDCATT
11-18-2008, 05:49 PM
OWS has new made mag tubes.complete with stacking rod(cap)gunparts has springs.or 45/70 from brownell. :coffee: [smilie=1:

korvettenkapitan
11-30-2008, 08:41 AM
Check out my photo's of the Dominion 43M, head case separation ,in the All Albums tab .
Korvettenkapitan-----------

Southwestern Canuck
01-04-2009, 08:25 PM
To all, I trust everyone had a great Christmas, and my wishes to all for a very good year to come.

korvettenkapitan's shots of the case head separation he experienced shows just about exactly what I was talking about earlier (I need to figure out how to upload my shots so you can compare notes, and the "not so nice" effects of using this counterfeit brass).

Working with the gunsmith at Lawson's, he restored the proper headspace on my 71/84, and now there is less than a 0.001" gap between the end of the closed bolt and the face of the barrel. With a case rim recess on the bolt face of 0.094", my rifle is now at the original "factory spec". Test firing with a nominal smokeless load (370 gr lead bullet and 35 gr of 4198) and a known good case, went as expected, no excessive case expansion or elongation, not even a suggestion of any elevated pressure.

As for the new stock. Randy Lawson came up with a chunk of California Claro Walnut that, using the original stock as a basic pattern, produced a roughed "Modern Classic" style stock that I'm in the final stages of finishing the inletting and doing the overall shaping.

By the time its done, the metal work will still be all "71/84" but at a glance, the finished rifle sure won't look like one. We made the stock deliberately heavier (more "meat" around the receiver area and under the magazine tube), adds some weight to the rifle, not really a bad thing, but sure makes it more comfortable to hold. Putting this kind of stock around a 71/84 without modifying the metalwork was a bit of a challenge, but the end result is well worth the effort. Expect to get this project to completion over the next two months (most of that time will be applying the many sessions of hand-rubbed finish). Probably by the time I figure out how to upload the pics of the counterfeit cases, I should have some shots of the finished rifle.

As for a new magazine tube, tried all the suggestions, but finally gave up trying to track one down. Did get a new spring for an 1895 Marlin which is perfect for the 71/84, and have made a new follower for it. I managed to find a section of thin-wall steel tubing that, with a very slight expansion (0.005") makes a prefect magazine tube (0.590" ID, 0.62" OD). I "plagiarized" Winchester's tubular magazine front-end attachment concept from my pre-63 Model 94, and have created an arrangement that looks like it was supposed to be that way, without having to mangle a real magazine tube and end cap.

As for brass, I am going to give the Bertram cases a careful try. Knowing what I now do about the headspace issue on these rifles, and knowing mine is as good as it can be, if the Bertram case rimes are really around 0.093" as advertised, there shouldn't by any problems. For those of you using cases made from formed .348 brass, check of the excessive headspace you might inadvertently be playing with, it could easily lead to premature case failures at the rim.

Steve

Humpy
01-08-2009, 04:30 AM
Someone mentioned the Bell 43 Mauser brass was no longer available? Glad I got some when I did. I know where there are several boxes of original Dominion 43 ammo for sale. It is original as I knew they guy that worked for the place that got all Dominion had when they ceased production a thousand years ago.

oilman041153
01-16-2009, 07:16 PM
hi in one of your threads uou said that you found a supplier that had magazine tubes for 71/84 mauser rifles. or you where thinking of makig some of these parts. if you could help me to get two of these mag tubes i would be a happy person

thanks oilman041153

doug strong
12-21-2009, 10:20 PM
Like Oilman I am looking for mag tubes. I need four of them. Any help woufl be appreciated.

doug strong
12-21-2009, 11:17 PM
I would love a Black Powder load for 397G cast Boolits. Any suggestions?

TAWILDCATT
12-23-2009, 08:45 PM
use 45/70 load.45/90 cases should work.45/70 is short. and Bertrame is made from 45/90.

Beekeeper
12-24-2009, 12:21 PM
I have one of the 43 mausers and enough parts to build a second one.
For those who want to build one here are the places I have found that carry parts .
OWS has most of the operating parts for them as well as some complete rifles.
E-mail " dixie" at ows for pricing and availability.
Numrich Gun Parts has a lot of parts, kind of pricy but all are excellent parts
Sarco had bolts but have not checked in some time but don't know
Jack First ( you have to call them) has a lot of hard to find parts, a friend bought a magazine from them
Centerfire Systems has barreled actions that have some parts on them for $9.99 each.
I recently bought 4 of them for parts and using Numrichs price list have about $200 in spare parts. Have not cleaned the barrels or actions yet so do not know the condition yet.
I scratch built my stock and will do the same with the second one.
I know it ain't kosher but I bought a piece of 2by 8 walnut ( kiln dried and started from there).
I posted pics of it in a previous thread
Will help anyone with what little knowledge I have for anyone who wants t build one.


Jim

Beekeeper
12-24-2009, 12:22 PM
Graf and sons had 43 mauser bertram brass some time ago. do not know if they still have any.

Jim

John 242
12-26-2009, 02:53 PM
This rifle model never saw wartime service - too late for the Franco-Prussian war, totally obsolete by WW1.

Just to clarify…
According to Paul Scarlata (Shotgun News 7th Annual and the 9th Annual) many single shot Mauser1871s were dragged out of retirement at the beginning of WWI. They were needed in order to arm the huge numbers of reservists being called up for active duty. Some of these rifles supposedly saw combat in Europe at the beginning of the war. I would think that the Model 71/84 rifles were also used in combat but the articles I read don’t specifically say so.
The. German Navy was reissued the Model 71 and 71/84 at the beginning of WWI. The Navy turned in their modern Mauser Model 98s so that those rifles could be issued to land forces.
Mauser 1871 Jagerbuchse rifles were used in the German African colonies till the end of WWI.
It would make sense that the repeating Model 71/84 also saw service, but I haven’t seen that documented.
On page 15 of Guns of the Reich (Markham 1989) there is a photo of members of the Freikorps (post 1918) using various rifles including what is possibly a Model 1871 or 71/84
Germany in WWI, and again in WWII, was not prepared for a long large scale conflict. The Germans resorted to using whatever weapons they could scrounge, including obsolete small arms. The French and Russians were in the same boat.
I wouldn’t doubt that some Model 71/84s were used as last ditch rifles by the Volkssturm at the end of WWII.
The subject is very fascinating… to me anyway.

JMtoolman
12-27-2009, 12:55 PM
I am glad to read about the Dominion brass for my 71/84 rifles. I checked my brass and found two cases with Dominion headstamps. They also to me appear to be cast brass. I looked at them under my microscope after sectioning them and they both had cracks starting at the junction of the head and web. They are now deposited in the junk brass bucket after cuting them apart. I don't know where I got them over the years, probably picked them up at a gun show somewhere, I have only been shooting the 43 Mauser since the 1960's. Thanks again, the toolman.

Ron.D
12-27-2009, 01:22 PM
Doug Strong. I have shot a few strictly Black powder loads but don't have notes on the velocity. I do remember that they grouped well. The load I've shot most was a duplex load. with approx 70 grs. of FFg over 8 grs. SR4759. Velocity's 1370'/s using the RCBS .466 boolit with a version of Emmert's lube. Grouped very well and penetrated a black bear lengthwise. Alloy was 30-1. I remember using enough black powder to cause 1/8th" compression so the duplex powders wouldn't migrate. Hope this helps a little. Ron.D

doug strong
12-28-2009, 10:40 PM
I have 20 Bertram cases and I think I will start tomorrow with 60gr of Hodgdon's 777 over a 370gr blue lubed bullet. In order to fill the case I will use a couple grains of polyfill. How does that sound as a starting place?

doug strong
12-30-2009, 04:16 AM
I have 20 Bertram cases and I think I will start tomorrow with 60gr of Hodgdon's 777 over a 370gr blue lubed bullet. In order to fill the case I will use a couple grains of polyfill. How does that sound as a starting place?

I've done more reading and playing around a bit.

By 60 gr I meant by volume not by weight. I tried out filling cases and found out several things.
1. 60 grains by weight fills the cartridge too full to seat the boolit without serious compression which hodgden recommends against.
2. 60 grains by volume leaves a lot of air space which most sources I've read recommend against.
3. 50 grains by weight seems about right to come to the bottom of the seated boolit.
4. Hodgdon's recommends against the polyfill.

Here is what I am now thinking.

10 loaded with 60 grains (45 by weight) by volume with my 384 g boolet no filler
and
10 loaded with 50 grains by weight (almost 70 by volume) with my 384 g boolet no filler

Take them to the range and see what happens.

Thoughts?

doug strong
01-09-2010, 10:10 PM
I went to the range today and had a blast!
IN the end I loaded my 384g boolit with 55 grains of 777 ffg.

That was a delight to shoot!

I am going to start loading again now.

StrawHat
10-22-2010, 06:35 AM
Somewhere in my pile of magazines is an article on loading the 43 Mauser. Written by Ross Seyfried so it was probably in either Hnadloader or Rifle magazine about 8 or 10 years ago. When I find it I'll reference the issue so it can be read.

Okay, I am a bit slow when it comes to finding and posting stuff. But here is the article I mentioned.


http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=750&magid=56

(Sorry for the delay.)

closey
10-23-2010, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the link SH.

Closey

danyboy
12-29-2010, 09:16 AM
Morgan,

Appreciate the info on using reformed .348 brass.

Was starting to think about that option upon finding out BELL is no longer producing their 11mm "A" base brass, and that more than one person has raised cautions on using the Bertram 11.15x60R stuff, apparently it is reported to be quite brittle and also prone to failing at the rim area.

Talked to the people at Buffalo, and they provide .43 Mauser cases made from .348 brass, but he didn't indicate if the head area was swaged down, or machined. So the question I have is, does anone know, and/or, has anyone tried their reformed cases?

After seeing the kind of damage a failed rim causes with just a light load, I want to be reasonably sure I've got the best cases possible before I put this carefully restored beastie close to my face again.

Some have suggested using 45-70 brass, but given the relative dimensions of rim and head diameters, I would suspect the 45-120 case would be a better "fit", would only need an 0.011" reduction in rim diameter, and a fair chunk trimmed off the length after forming, but with the head diameter being 0.10 smaller, not too sure if that would be a problem.

Anyone have any thoughts on going this way?

Steve


Dug up this old topic. I have been shooting Buffalo arm reformed 348 brass for my mauser 71/84 (43) for years and they are still good. 12 gr.Unique behind cotton puff, Lyman446110 WW cold water dropped bullet sized with Lyman lubriser. I bought another mauser front sight from Brownell (if I recall it was meant for mauser 98K) cause the original front sight was for 200 meters .
I since then, adapted a Bsquare scope mount to the rear sight and been using a long eye relief scope cause my eyesight isn't quite as good as it used to be.
I pulled bullet out of an original CIL cartridge and found 21 grains of unknown powder (small circles with a little hole in the middle). Dupont (IMR) couldn't identify this powder. Bullet was 385gr. I have about 3 boxex left of this ammo and don't plan on shooting it.
Danyboy

joebrotch
12-31-2010, 09:50 PM
I make my 43 mauser brass out of 45-90, turn rims down .010" then run a .460 rod down to inside basse till it swells to .513" tnen size in 43 mauser die and your ready to go, I cast bullets in the rcbs 44-370 FN mold 20-1 to .446" dia.

23-25 grains of sr4759 is about 1200-1300 FPS.

sgtlbi
03-29-2011, 03:54 PM
hello, after reading everyones threads I just had to dig out my71/84 from 1888 and some ammo I haven't seen in 40 years and give it a try. Ammo was ten round blue pack produced feb 17 1888. Picked out three random rounds from box and all three fired as new! did however have two cracked cases out of the three rounds.just won a bid for some imperial and some made from 45/90 cases that are loaded can't wait til they get here.

uscra112
03-30-2011, 12:30 AM
I too have a 71/84 that is so clean that I can believe it may never have been fired once it left the factory. Honestly, I've been reluctant to deflower it, so everything I say here is research, not actual experience.

This is important ! The neck of my chamber is small, so small that a .446" cast boolit in HDS brass makes a cartridge that will not fit. I have a boxful of original Mauser rounds, paper patched, with a dead-soft boolit, and they do fit quite nicely. Looking at one right now, the diameter over the patch is .4405". Almost 6 thou smaller than the nominal size of .446" which is quoted for greasy boolits cast by moulds intended for the .43 Mauser.

Paul Matthews pointed out that this tight-neck practice was also used in the USA during the paper-patched boolit era. The intent was that the small boolit would enter the throat of a fouled gun, and obturate as necessary to fill the grooves on firing.

Be aware of this as you start setting up your ammunition. It's very hard to tell if you've got a tight neck in a bolt rifle, unless you hand-chamber to test. And as we know it ain't good for pressures if you've press-fitted the round into the chamber.

Paper patching a pure lead boolit cast at .430" or so may be a good place to start. I will do that someday, I suppose. For now she just sits in the safe.

Texinoz
11-18-2011, 10:31 PM
If the rifle is the 71/84 with tube mag it should be true .446 groove diameter and boolits that size should work well. The original single shot model 71's had deeper grooves more like .452 and the largest boolit diameter that will chamber should be used (up to .452). With mine, .450 is the limit without inside neck turning my Bertram brass. With 30:1 Pb/Sn this works well with Lyman 446110 340gn or sized RCBS 44-370 Sharps mold - even better is a 450gn flat nose loverin boolit (Lyman mold 451114). I don't try paper patching - even though that is the "correct" original load.

Chicken Thief
11-19-2011, 03:16 PM
Here's a case drawing
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mauser%2071-84/11_15x60r_mauser.jpg

The problem might be thick walled brass?
The boolit spec. is 11,40mm ~ .448"
Neck 11,85mm ~ .466"

JMtoolman
11-19-2011, 06:14 PM
The 43 Mauser is a great hunting round. I killed a large cow moose with one of my rifles a few weeks ago. ( see the hunt forum) Took her with a paper patch bullet at 238 yards. The toolman.

looseprojectile
11-19-2011, 07:32 PM
these old threads come back once in a while.
I have one of the nearly new 71/84 rifles.
My best shooting loads turned out to be the RCBS 43 Spanish boolit paper patched up to .446/.447". Cast of really soft lead. I just put a dab of Rooster Jacket on em. I did not see that those shot really good till my partner showed me the groups. Did not use a wad or filler and used just over twenty grains of SR4759. Not going to tell you how small the groups were as you would think it was BS.
I still have some of them loaded and will give them another go soon. These I will document. I mostly shoot the grease groove RCBS Boolit.
Will probably try some with filler and wads too.
I have mostly Dominion brass [about 140] and they will last me a lifetime.
I pulled a boolit from one of the CIL/Dominion rounds and it is definately 4759 powder. The same weight I use. Those CIL cartridges are very accurate.

Life is good

danyboy
01-07-2013, 09:53 PM
Tried something new. Sized .446 Lee cast boolit down to .435 and paper patched (3 wraps of computer paper) up to .448". Didn't size the cases, just decapped them, expanded them a little with Lee universal expanding die, charged with 13, 13.5 14gr of unique. Results: precise with 13.5gr at 50 yards and 100 yards (1˝" at 50 and about 2˝" at 100 yards). Also inserted a tad of cotton puff over the powder. Outside neck measure .367". A little hard to chamber but old rifle could take it. Easy to clean. A scope makes all the difference in the world (Mauser 98BSquare mount adapted at the rear sight. Had to drill the hole a little bigger and use a stove bolt to secure the mount. Counter screw helped keep the mount solid). Of course, downsizing bullets from .446" to .435" took a little energy.
Black powder would probably be better but never handloaded catridges with it and not too sure about cleaning the gun well afterwards. I got a can of Pyrodex 'P', may give it a try one of those days.
Love this gun and never get fed up shooting it.

leadman
01-07-2013, 10:18 PM
I'm rereading some of my old American Rifleman magazine and am the 1958 year. There are advertisements that are selling new unfired 71/84 rifles. IIRC the prices run from $24.95 to about $50.
I need to get mine out again and play some more. The Lee 300gr 45cal pistol boolit sized to .450" was shooting very well. I have been thinking of paper patching the Lee 44cal 310gr. I have a mold that drops around .436" so it may work.

Wdog01
01-12-2013, 05:41 PM
Hello, there are lot of original manufacturer drawings in one interesting book (D.Storz: German Military Rifles vol.1). Original dia of lead bullet was 11,0mm (0.433) plus paper-patch. The original barrel size was 11,0/11,6mm (0.433/0.457). Tolerance was 0,05mm (0.002) down. The original chamber dia was 11,95mm (0.470). My BB brass cases have thickness of 0.010. So you can use about 0.433 bullets with paper-patch or lets say from .0445 to 0.452 dia lead bullets lubricated to grooves or under - without paper-patch. Question are dies, with .452 bullet you have to use different for expanding and seating, for ex. 45ACP ones. Original bullet weight was 400gr. Bye Ales

Wdog01
07-19-2013, 04:15 PM
Hello, maybe after some time I can refresh this topis with some experiences and measuring.

I use bullets from Lee 457-400 mould, sized to .542. Lubricated is about 400gr., alloy with linotype. I format brass with 11mm Mauser FL die, expand and seat with 45 ACP dies, the format with 45 ACP die. Because of wide expanding for .452 bullet. Total lenght shouldn´t be over 2.913 because of bullet shape. Original brass 11mm Mauser made by BB.

I measured v0=1460fps from original M1971 rifle, with the load 30g. of ACC5744. Accurate at 50y. This is maximal load for me, the load comparable with former original cartridge power is about 29g. of ACC5744.

What is important and maybe funny ... I put data to ballistic calculator, the result: original military sights are balanced to hit zero at 295y. (270m). With my load, on 50y. range, the target is hit by 14 inch. upper, or at 100y. by 23 inch. upper. Consider it. Bye Ales

danyboy
08-13-2013, 03:18 PM
'use bullets from Lee 457-400 mould, sized to .542'.
You probably meant 'sized to '452"' NOT '.542"' !

Wdog01
08-26-2013, 04:46 PM
Of course, you are right, sized to .452, sorry.

cpileri
08-26-2013, 07:57 PM
re-post:

Load information:
The loading information I use for the 11 mm is as follows: What I am giving you here are the loads I have found work best to this point. Please understand with no baseline I kissed many toads before comming up with a princess. All loads use a wax paper cover wad between the cushion wad and bullet base.
Black Powder, goex FFg
Case Length: 2.320
Powder: 72 gr
Wads 1 .060 or 2 .030 fiber
Bullet Lyman 436 gr seated .500 (measured from case top to bullet top. .120 compresson)
RCBS 396 gr seated .550
Lube: 50/50 melted mix of Thompson pruple stuff and Thompson patch lube.

Pyrodex loads, use pyrodex RS
Case lentgth: 2.320
Powder: 50 grains
Wads: 1 .060 or 2 .030 fiber
Primer: CCI LR
Bullet seat: LYMAN 346 GR seated .500 (measured case top to bullet top.)
RCBS 396 GR seated .550
Lube: 50/50 melted mix of Thompson purple stuff and Thompson patch lube.

I hope this base line may help others starting from scratch. The trajectory pretty well matches the sights (at least with my gun). The muzzle velocity is right around 1400 feet per second plus or minus 20 fps per second and fouling is medium. I am still trying to figure out how you site at 300 meters.
Terry

__________________________________________________ ____
This load was developed for shooting at 300 meters and above:
470 gn GG bullet with 3% tin in pure lead (NO wheelweights).
Sized to 0.446" (slug your bore and size accordingly).
Bullet inserted in case so that case mouth is on front grease groove.
In my M71, this is about 1 mm off the lands. Going closer makes problems in military competitions where you are not allowed to clean between shots!
This is the first step, as you need to establish the seating depth BEFORE deciding on the powder charge.
In case: powder, shake down powder by tapping the case on the bench, two wads from milk carton, 0.5 cc of lube from a medical syringe, wad, bullet.
The amount of lube will vary according to mix and whether you want to shoot military competitions without cleaning between shots. Powder: Swiss No. 4 to fill space under bullet/wad/lube/wads stack. Empirically: 67 gns. No compression, as that would be yet another variable, and reports say that Swiss powder doesn't like it!
It too me quite some time to establish this load, so if you work up a satisfactory load with BP for the 350 gn bullet I would be grateful if you would post it here, to save me some work! My estimate is that, with the shorter bullet, about 75 gn will fill the space without compression. That combination should produce a significantly higher muzzle velocity, and may well perform better at 100 meters, than my load, which is intended for long-range shooting.
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12g trail boss with the 385 and 15g with 340g bullet.
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Some load data for the 43 Mauser. Some will be from the 1871 Single shot, and others from a M71/84. I'm not going to bother saying which is which as it makes no difference as far as the charge goes. My M71 has a .451" groove so any of the 45 cal boolits shown are mainly from the M71. All brass is Bertram and WLR primers were used.


Lee 452-190SWC
8.0 Red Dot .......: 1060
10.0 Unique .......: 1100

Lyman 292gr:
12.0 Unique........: 1160
25.0 2400 .........: 1490*
27.0 H4198 + Dacron: 1310

Lee 457-340F:
12.0 Unique........: 1070*
16.0 Blue Dot......: 1180
21.0 2400..........: 1370
25.0 2400..........: 1440
25.0 H4227 + Dacron: 1440*
22.0 SR4759........: 1220


Lyman 340gr FNPB, 446110
37.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1223
39.0 Surp 4895 + Darcon: 1270
45.0 Surp WC852 + SS...: 1333
27.0 XMR5744 + Dacron..: 1300
24.0 SR4759 + Dacron...: 1320

RCBS 43-370 FNPB
16.0 Unique ..........: 1260*
42.0 Surp WC852 + SS..: 1260*
22.0 SR4759 ..........: 1180
33.0 Surp 4895 .......: 1060

Lyman 385gr RNPB
16.0 SR7625........: 1200
28.0 XMR5744+Dacron: 1470
30.0 XMR5744+Dacron: 1535*
27.0 H4198 + Dacron: 1300*
33.0 AA2495 + Dacron: 1310
37.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1350
36.0 Surp WC846 + Dacron: 1460
40.0 Surp WC852 + Dacron: 1233*
42.0 Surp WC852 + Dacron: 1303*

Lee 457-405F (not HB)
24.0 XMR5744 + Dacron: 1245
27.0 H4198 + Dacron..: 1270*
33.0 AA2495 + Dacron.: 1312
33.0 Surp4895 + Dacron: 1180

Lyman 475 gr FNPB (Whitworth bullet)
33.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1150
35.0 Surp 4895 + Dacron: 1275*
40.0 Surp WC852 + Dacron: 1225*

The loads with the (*) indicate superb accuracy at 50 yards. This is less than, or not very much more than an inch. Those with the SS denote use of Super Sam, which is a ground polyethelene shot buffer.
43 Mauser
LoadID 8254
Bullet
Buffalo Bullet Lead
BulletWeight
370 grs
Powder
IMR 4198
PowderWeight
30 grs
Primer
LR
Brass Make
Bertram
Barrel Length
24 (inches)
C.O.L
(inches)
Velocity
1200 fps
Group
(inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date
8/28/2003 11:50:00 AM
Submitted By

Gun Info

Comment
3-4 gr polyester filler over powder
Smokeless can be safely used in most blackpowder cartridge arms providing you know what your maximum pressures are. For instance, 35 grains of IMR4895 with a 350 grain lead bullet would generate very similar pressures (maybe a tad higher) to the same load using 80 grains of blackpowder. What must be remembered is that these oldies use soft lead bullets, even the hardest lead bullets are only 1 fourth the hardnest of a jacketed bullet. So a lead bullet requires much less force to push down the barrel, hence lower pressures. If you wanted to use smokeless powder in a very large case such as the 577/450, depending on the type of powder and charge you will probably need a filler. The filler is designed to keep the powder charge at the bottom of the case, providing uniform ignition and pressures. Without the filler the powder will settle lengthwise inside the case, and when the primer is struck the flame will shoot over the top of the powder, not directly into it, causing erratic ignition and pressure spikes. When using smokeless in a BPCR (blackpowder cartridge rifle) there are some things to be remembered. You need to use a bullet that is groove diameter or a couple thousanths over. With blackpowder, undersized bullets can be used because when black ignites it SLAMS HARD into the base of the bullet, causing it to "bump up" to proper groove diameter. Smokeless powder on the other hand is progressive burning, and will not slam into the bullet base with as hard of force, and if an undersized bullet it used the hot gases from the burning powder may sneak past the bullet, which usually melts the lead. This is called gas cutting. Also, with smokeless you need to use a bullet lube designed for smokeless loads, these lubes are often much harder than blackpowder lube. Lee Liquid alox is great stuff to use on lead bullets loaded with smokeless. As for choosing a type of smokeless to use in your rifle, you'll find that powder such as 4350, 3031, 4895 and 4198 work well in these large capacity cases. These powders are also high in volume, being that each granule is quite large, taking up more space inside the case, lessening the need for a filler.

For blackpowder (BP). Some say loading with BP is safer, others say it is just as dangerous or even more dangerous than loading with smokeless. There's a few extra steps involved when using BP. The neat thing about BP is that it is nearly impossible to fit enough inside a case to make it a dangerous load. Take the 43 Mauser for example. The military load called for a 77 grain charge of a FFg type BP. 77 grains nearly fills it to the top, and even when using a drop tube to charge the case, you'll find you can only put about a total of 85 or so grains of powder before you can't put anymore in. Even 85 grains is not a dangerous load, and to many 45-110 and 45-120 Sharps shooters this would be considered a mild load.
There are different grades of BP. Fg, is used for large bore muskets and cannons, FFg is used more for blackpowder cartridge arms, FFFg is mainly used in BP pistols, and I believe FFFFg is used strictly as flash pan powder in flintlocks. The more F's, the smaller the grain size and the faster the burn rate and the higher the pressures. You'll also find that the finer grades shoot dirtier (though alot of that depends on techniques in loading).

One thing that is a must when charging black into a case is what's called a drop tube. This is a simple tube, usually made of aluminum or even copper, that is usually around 25 or even 30 inches in length with a funnel at the top. A drop tube is designed to slowly charge the case with your BP, allowing each grain to "settle" before another grain settles ontop of it, the result is a powder charge that is more dense and much more uniform, this also removes more airspace between the granules. As for measuring blackpowder, because of how black likes to settle if vibrated, the volume method is what's been the main way of measuring it for many years. Personally I just weigh my powder. However the numbers will be different from using the volume method. My powder measure set to 77 grains of FFg powder will actually drop a charge into a pan that weighs in at 88 grains on the scale. I know for a fact the load is not 88 grains because 88 grains won't fit into the case i'm loading for, but the number you get on your scale can still be used as a refference to insure that each charge weighs the same. After weighing my charge I put the case under the end of the drop tube, put my funnel at the top, and slowly pour in the powder. After that I take each charged case and while holding it firmly, give it a few taps with a steel punch just to help settle the powder into the case that much more, if you watch the powder while tapping it will move down into the case further, as it's settling itself. After I've charged and tapped my loaded shells I like to wad them. Wads are essentially designed to protect the base of the bullet. As said earlier BP slams into the base of bullets, sometimes even deforming them causing inconsistant accuracy. So a wad is placed between the two, it sort of acts like a copper gas check, in that is helps protect the base of the bullet from the impact as well as the extreme heat of the burning powder. Most people use commercially bought "vegetable fiber" wads, they come in varrying thicknesses, though most will agree that wads with a minimum thickness of .080 is what's needed to give adequate protection. I make my own wads from thin but very tough cardpaper, 4 of them compressed together very tightly will mike to about .080 or a little thicker in the caliper. On the other hand you'll find some rifles shoot better without them. It's really trial and error with loading BP, or just reloading in general. To cut my wads I use the sharp mouth of a .45ACP and a light tap of the hammer cuts them out. A 45 cal wad fits perfectly into the neck of a .43 Mauser case.

After the wad you can choose to seat your bullet or add whats called a "grease cookie". The grease cookie is either a veggie wad soaked in a soft beeswax or crisco type lube or just a pea sized pinch of the lube itself put into the case mouth before seating the bullet. Which brings me to bullet lubes for BP. You HAVE to use a bullet lube when shooting BP. Modern smokeless powder lubes (hard lubes) will not work very well. The lube not only keeps the bullet from leading up the bore, it's main purpose is to keep the hard and crusty blackpowder fouling soft, allowing the next fired bullet to "scrape out" the fouling from the previous shot. As you know, BP shoots very dirty. After just a dozen shots or usually less, the bore will become so encrusted with BP fouling that it becomes very hard for the bullet to pass down the dirty bore. So that's the purpose of the lube. Alot of competition shoots do what's called "swabbing" between shots. In that they take a tight fitting patch on the proper diameter jag and push the patch down the bore after each shot to remove the fouling. One trick to know if your using enough lube is to see how easily the patch goes down the bore. If it feels crusty or rough in spots at all, your not using enough lube. Another trick is to check the muzzle, if enough lube is still on the bullet by the time it's reached the end of the barrel, you will see what's called a "lube star" on the mouth of the barrel. So you can swab between shots, or use a blow tube. Say you want to use a blow tube for your Martini. You'd buy a .577/450 blow tube which is simply the .577 shell that's had the primer pocket drilled out and a short clear plastic tube attatched to it. You stick the shell into the rifle, and blow on the tube. The moisture from your breath will be soaked up immediently by the BP fouling, which quickly becomes soft and mushy, making a patch easy to push down the bore. So some shooters do a combination of both, blow, then swab the bore. Now what iv'e said above about fouling is what most competition shoots will tell you do to, or is what they do.
Casual shooters like you or me just go the range, load up our rifles, and shoot them until the bore needs a good swabbing. How much lube your using, the type of powder, and powder compression all have a deciding factor on how dirty BP shoots. You'll find Goex shoots actually quite clean when properly compressed. Compression simply squeezes the granules even tighter together, making one very solid and uniform powder column, which burns much more thoroughly, making it burn cleaner. So if charged correctly, compressed adequetly, and enough lube is used, there's no reason why your BP loads should shoot dirty. In fact if your lucky I've seen some fellows who have shot BP loads all day through their rifles with no fouling issues to speak of. You just have to experiement. There's really no limit to how much compression you can do, because eventually enough will bulge the case. I compress my powder down about a quarter inch, aka .250 on the caliper, this is about the most common amount of compression used. One last thing, before seating your bullets you will want to flare the case mouth or during seating the sharp case mouth will more than likely shave lead off the base off the bullet, which is a killer for accuracy. Lee sells a universal case expanding die for like $11, and it works up to 45 caliber.

Well it took me over an hour to type this. But always glad to help out a fellow shooter. All the information I posted is correct to the best of my knowledge, everything I learned about BP shooting and loading came from doing about 2 months worth of reading over at the cast boolits forum. Great bunch of guys over there, most of them have been doing this kind of thing for 30 years or more. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com They also have a neat section on paper patching, which I am still mastering, but it's actually quite easy once you get it down. And it sure is a fun and useful technique to know


(I compiled this, none is my original work. C-)