Data From Old Manuals

[leadman]

Didn't know exactly where to post this so put it here.

A friend of mine called me and asked if I had an idea why the primers were "backing out" of his Topper 30-30 that he bought from me several years ago.
Seems he took a load from a 6/95 IMR Handloader's Guide and loaded the max amount of 3031. The load specs are 35.5 (compressed)grs. 3031, 150gr. Hornady, Rem.case, Rem 9 1/2 primer.
I told him that sounded like a heavy charge so checked the Hogdon website and it listed 31.1grs. 3031 with a 150 gr. bullet. I found the 31.1 gr. load in the 5/03 IMR Handloader's Guide also.

4.5 grs. is a big difference in a smaller case like the 30-30. I know he should not have loaded the max load, but started 10% lower. He also called me back and said their if a depression in the metal by the firing pin hole. Blown primer damage?

With access to the powder companies websites is might be a good idea to confirm any load data from older manuals to be safe.

[BIGGUNGOBOOM]

True, the older reloading books seem to have higher data then the current ones today. I have several old ones and always revert back to newer material to double check. I also go to the manufactures web site and check what they currently show as far as data. sounds to me that he was definitely pushing those loads and that's why he is having those problems. send him a link to the various reloading sites "IE Manufacture" so that he also has something to go by

[twotrees]

The standard for 30-30 with IMR 3031 has been for , years

150 gr j word----33 gr MAX

170 gr j word ----30 gr MAX.

Those go back to my manuals from the 60's.

Good Shooting.

[Bret4207]

While your friend should have started lower, I've seen cases where individual rifles max loads differ by as much as 10%, more than the difference in loads you mention. Your friend may have a short throat and a tight chamber, another identical rifle may have a long throat and generous chamber. I keep saying the variables stack up to make each gun a law unto it self. I learned that the hard way.

[bobk]

Actually, the pressure is likely not too high, or the case head would set back, and there would be no high primer. The cases would stretch right above the base, and probably come out in two pieces after a couple of reloads. It's probably an excess headspace problem caused by sloppy headspace, which seems really common. The easy solution is to back off the sizing die until the sized cases won't chamber, and then screw it back in small increments until it does chamber. This way you are headspacing on the shoulder, rather than the rim. Case life will improve, and no more high primers.

Bob K

[leadman]

This was my rifle at one time so I have a pretty good idea of the chamber and throat. The chamber gave no problem with headspace and the throat is long, longer even than my Contender carbine barrel. He did chronograph the load at just over 2,500 fps 15' from the muzzle. I haven't looked at his fired cases but will probably do so next week.
I shoot Contenders, Encores, and Topper/Handi rifles. It is common for the receivers to stretch with the break open guns when fired with a heavy load. This allows the primer to back out and if a heavy enough charge, the primer will flatten on the outside of the head of the cartridge.
I have an Encore Pro Hunter 28" 7mm Rem Magnum that does this in the summer with factory ammo. That is why I do not shoot it when temps climb over 100'.
Twotrees, those loads are over what is listed on the Hodgdon website for those combos.

[Rocky Raab]

I also think they are far too hot. The all-time classic (and eponymous) loads for the 30-30 and 3031 powder are:

170 gr - 30
150 gr - 31

That's 30 and 31 for 3031, in case anybody missed it.

[Throwback]

While your friend should have started lower, I've seen cases where individual rifles max loads differ by as much as 10%, more than the difference in loads you mention. Your friend may have a short throat and a tight chamber, another identical rifle may have a long throat and generous chamber. I keep saying the variables stack up to make each gun a law unto it self. I learned that the hard way.

Bret is quite right. My .44 mountain gun cannot be shot with maximum loads - its throats are tight. It shoots well but my maximums are always short of the manuals. My Desert Eagle (jacketed only here) can seemingly digest anything and operates best at maximum levels. My .35 Whelen while able to digest loads that are vastly superior to factory, must be worked up carefully. I made a slight change once to seating depth and got visible and unexpected pressure signs with a favorite load. Checking things out against my notes quickly showed me where the problem was.

[twotrees]

"The Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 shows that 31.0 grains of IMR 3031 powder will drive a 150 grain bullet to a MV of 2184 fps, and 33.0 grains of IMR 3031 will drive a 150 grain bullet to a MV of 2364 fps."

"http://www.chuckhawks.com/30-30Win.htm"

That 33 gr load is the one I have been using in my son's 30-30 since I got it for him in 1976.

I will check, but I am sure that the Old Lyman manual I started loading with in the 60's was where I got that load from in the first place.

Good Shooting,

[Rocky Raab]

I didn't say those were the only loads, but that they were the CLASSIC loads. They are.

[leadman]

That was the point of this post. I found the 35.5gr. load in the IMR pamplet from June of 1995.
Some guns may digest this without a problem, my friends can't.
The lab guy from Alliant I spoke with recently on another issue said the piezeo method of measuring pressure in use now has revealed pressure spikes that the old crusher method could not.
There is an article in the May 2009 Shooting Times by Allan Jones formerly of Speer addressing this issue.

[threett1]

The better technology in the ballistics labs, the better info we have today. The measurements are so much more precise than they were even 5 years ago, therefore data is changing. I was given loads from a companies rep over the phone several years ago that is over the max today. We have to adjust.

[Junior1942]

If your friend can't follow directions he should sell his reloading gear before he damages his rifle, himself, or an innocent bystander at the range. Starting with the max load in any manual is the height of stupidity. You can tell him I said so, too.

[44man]

I have an old 1987 Speer manual that normally has some scary loads in it, way above modern manuals.
It shows a max load of 3031 as 33 gr for the 100 gr bullet and 32 gr for the 110 gr bullet.
It does not list a 3031 load for the 150 gr but for the 170 gr it has a max of 29.5 gr.
However, my IMR booklet does show 35.5 gr as max for the 150 gr.
Most of us look at all manuals before making a decision and approach the higher loads with caution, which is as it should be. Too many powders have had burn rate changes over the years although I do not believe any change has been made to 3031.
I agree that anyone that jumps right to the max load needs some training. With the internet and loads at our fingertips, there is no reason to look at old information.
I have complained mightily about even some guys here looking for velocity with no concern for accuracy. The fast bullet has never killed what it can't hit! [smilie=1:
My surprise was that the old Speer book was about right for the 30-30.

[jsizemore]

When I started loading, everything I read said " when you get a new component in to load, you need to drop your charge back 10% and work up your load."
I took that to mean that when I got a new lot of boolits, primers, powder, etc., that I was to start over with my load development.
I think a lot of us forget that basic rule. Every noobie I get started in reloading, that's the thing I stress the most.
A half a thousandths increase in bullet diameter plus a thicker web in the case can run pressures out of sight.
If you load military brass that's thicker then commercial, the manual starting load is MAX in a military case. All you got to do is look.

[SwedeNelson]

leadman

I know its not the point of your post but get your friend to retire the old H&R topper.
My dad passed one down to me, a 20Ga./30-30 combo. Shot it for years with 150gr
J-bullets and 30gr. of 3031. Passed it on to my son that did the same thing. Last time we
got together to reload we found the same problem. The older toppers used a soft shotgun
frame with the thinking that the 30-30 was a low pressure round. He shoots a little 20ga.
out of it but no more 30-30's.

Swede Nelson

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Primers "Backing out" is not a pressure problem. Pressure smashes the primer FLAT but still in the pocket. For a primer to "Back Out" there must be SPACR for the primer to "Back OUT". Thus the case head is not heald firmly by the breach.
Probably the reloader is full length sizing and pushing the shoulder back to far for that chamber.
I have 2 44-40 SRC Winny 1892 rifles here and I segregate brass to each rifle as the chamber dimensions are not the same between the 2. I also ONLY nech size to limit case stretching with each firing. That is one of the blessings of straight wall cases. Bottleneck cases if not snugly chambered between shoulder and breech or bolt face have to do something UNDER Pressure to fill the gap and STRETCHING is the whats-a-gonna-happen.
Mike in Peru

[leadman]

NEF/H&R still makes the soft frame, called an SB1 for the shotgun and muzzlerloaders. The SB2 frame is heat treated for the rifles. This info is available on the NEF website. This gun is also a combo with the 20ga. barrel and the milled areas on the breech end of the barrel.
I did remind my friend of his errors concerning his loading of the max amount of powder. He is kinda hard-headed but I am sure he will not do this again. I will inspect the gun and cases next week.
I am glad that the majority of the replies to this thread are positive and recognize the fact pressure reading has become more precise and that data can be confirmed via the internet.
I was my intention to make people aware of the changes and how to deal with them to keep all safe.

[Junior1942]

Ask your hard-headed friend if he owned a race car would he drive it everywhere with the tach always on the red line.

[buck1]

If your friend can't follow directions he should sell his reloading gear before he damages his rifle, himself, or an innocent bystander at the range. Starting with the max load in any manual is the height of stupidity. You can tell him I said so, too.

Thats BASIC reloading 101.

Sometimes starting loads can be too hot for a given gun. Often I cant safely reach max book load. It could be the action streaching wile the case is froze to the bbl, creating head space issues?
I didnt look it up but that load sounds too hot by about 4-5 gr. IMHO..buck

[gray wolf]

I would think a 30/30 RIMMED cartridge is head-spacing off the rim and the shoulder has little to do with this problem. If the shoulder was pushed back to far the recoil of the round would still push the case back against the breach face and the shoulder would just move forward and fill the chamber.( fire formed)---Head space off the rim=case can't go forward.
I would be checking the lock up on the rifle--Interface between barrel and breach face.
Use some Cig.paper and then go a little thicker---then do the same with a UNLOADED round.
Check to see if there is space.
Also the information is a little thin--Did anything else take place?
Hard extraction?case wont go back into chamber? swelling at the web area? What else is going on.
I go back to my statement that the case has excessive head-space--worn action to much play---Space between breach and barrel.
Of course the load may be to hot BUT if all was well I think there would be other things showing up to indicate over pressure. BUT that does not say that it was not over the limit.
Let me go here-- Lets say there was to much head-space and the case could move back
wouldn't that have made a false shoulder caused by the space created in that area and then the case would not seat back in the chamber.
Just scratching my head here trying to help.

GW.

[buck1]

It is true that FL sized rimmed carts head space off the rim. It is also true that brass freezes to the bbl during fireing(not so commonly known). In fact the NRA years ago cautioned agenst using graphite to resize cases, as this would put the full force of the pressure agenst the bolt etc and not allow the case to grab the bbl.. With that in mind It MAY be possiable for the action to tweek under high pressure and at some point in the fireing cycle the brass could be frozen to the bbl wile not in contact with the bolt face and allow the primer to backed out a bit by the pressure?
Its just a guess. I have been reloading for 30 some odd years, and never claimed to know it all (I dont), But with the limited info given, the field is wide open.
PS: Fired brass from hot loads that have been neck sized only can head space off the shoulder, be it rimmed,rimless, or belted or rebated.In fact belted cart often shoot better if head spaced off the shoulder.

AS ALWAYS MY HUMBLE OPINION only......Buck

[1Shirt]

Junior speaks words of wisdom!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[atr]

Im with grey wolf on the headspace rim vs shoulder issue...the cartride was DESIGNED to headspace on the rim.

Also, it is not only the amount of powder that the reloader has to pay attention too: primer type, case length are also issues, and especially what type of action the load was tested in. If the reloader deviates from any of the test parameters he runs a risk.....which is why ALL the manuals suggest starting at the lower end of the charge level.

My other thought is this: would an enlarged primer pocket possibility be part of the reason for the primers backing out

last thought....the 35 grain loading of 3031 is way over anything any of my manuals (older and newer) list......
atr

[jsizemore]

Leadman, I still shoot a Contender in 25 Bullberry. When I first started loading it, I tried to neck size the 1X fireformed brass and at the match discovered that the cases were too long for the inter-lock safety to disconnect and allow the hammer to fall far enough to fire. I found I had to bump the shoulder back a couple thousandths for the gun to function properly. Since the 25 Bullberry is based on the 30-30 case, it should have only needed to be neck sized since it only headspaces on the rim of the case. But it sure took a bump on the shoulder for the gun to work. Sounds like it headspaces on the rim and shoulder.

[Char-Gar]

Have you or has anybody laid eyes on this manual that says 35/3031/150 is OK in the 30-30. I have been loading the 30-30 since 1959 that load is way pass the red line. I truly doubt that somebody published that load. I can be wrong, but Iwould need to see it to believe it.

[Rocky Raab]

Me too, Chargar. If it's published it had to either be an error (like the infamous tarrage table mixup for some loads in Speer #8) or "published" on some guy's website. Or maybe just a typo.

Either way, I think if it were tested today, it'd run far above a safe load.

[bobk]

atr,
Yes, the .30-30 is designed to headspace off the rim. However, if that headspace is sloppy, and I've found that to be true in this cartridge more than any other, then you can eliminate the problem by adjusting the sizing die so that you headspace on the shoulder. But it's not my brass, or my rifle, so do what you want.

While I question the 35 gr. loading, it may be that it is OK, if loaded EXACTLY as specified. I read an interesting article in an NRA handloading book many years ago, where they swapped around components in a .30-'06 and measured pressure. With seemingly the "same" loading, they got over 7000 pounds pressure difference, yet the velocity difference was less that 100 FPS.

The first time I became aware of the loose headspace problem was in 1960, or thereabouts. It was my Dad who learned this. He was using 34 Gr behind a 150, and the cases were separating. When he backed off to 32 Gr. that problem went away, and accuracy improved. But the cases were still too short in headspace to work the best in that rifle..

Bob K

[leadman]

I will try to load some scans of the IMR Hanloader's Guides. I had crossed out the 35.5 gr. 3031 loads but then noticed several other loads had also been reduced so trashed it. I pulled it out of the trash to scan. Scans were too large to load so I tried a picture, not good results so will try the other camera.
I'm afraid this is as good as it gets.

[leadman]

The issue here is not the headspace or other mechanical issues, but the issue of older data developed with the crusher system versus the new data developed with the transducer system. I know the pictures are not very clear but it is the best I could do. 4.4grs. difference in a powder charge in a case this size is significant.

T/C will tell you if you call them that they recommend headspacing rimmed and belted cartridges off the shoulder.
I have a gauge I use so I can measure with a dial indicator how far out of chamber the brass extends. I use this in combination with feeler gauges to check the clearance between the end of the barrel and the breech face. If this clearance exceeds .004" I then install shims behind the firing pin block to move the breech face forward. I try to obtain .001" to .0015" between the end of the cartridge and the breech face. Break open rifles come with their own set of quirks that have to be dealt with.
With measuring the clearance between the end of the barrel and the breechface when a new barrel is installed this can be recorded and compared later if a problem develops. Yes, the clearance can grow from either the frame stretching or the pin hole in the barrel or frame wearing or the barrel mounting lug stretching. Oversize pins are available to tighten this area as well as shims to install behind the firing pin/breech block.

[Char-Gar]

Well, they say "seeing is believing" so having seen, I now believe that load manual says what you said it said. Boy, now that is a convoluted sentence! I am of the opinion that no matter what method is used to measure pressure, those loads are way to hot.

I would expect the primers to be very flat or even smeared, but not backed out. Primers backed are are the results of either too much headspace, or loads which are to light. The latter is certainly not the case here.

To avoid wear and tear on the brass and for an improvment in accuracy, I also headspace rimmed cases on the shoulder, just like I do rimless. This also will do away with any headspace issues.

[felix]

No two powder lots are the same. Especially when considering storage conditions and how many times the can was opened. This is the assumption that must be made at all times. ... felix

[Rocky Raab]

I see it, too. I still think it's an error, and I'm pretty darn sure it's not a safe load.

In a situation where one manual lists a load that is significantly hotter than all other manuals available, the wise choice of action is to consider the hot load an abnormality of some kind - and not use it.

I personally check a minimum of three manuals. I'll use the bullet maker's data as primary, the powder maker's data as confirmation and an independent source (like Lyman) as insurance. If ANY of them is out of whack with the other two, I start searching for reasons, and other data sources. The reason (if discovered) is very often a bullet effect. Over- or under-size diameter, longer or shorter bearing length or other mechanical or material differences are common.

An older Speer manual used to list heavier loads for their 190-gr match bullet than for their 180-gr hunting bullet for the same cartridge. They drew attention to it with the explanation that the match bullet, although heavier, had a longer ogive and a boattail, which reduced the bearing length so much that it could use a heavier load than the lighter bullet with a longer shank. Bullets matter a lot, and it is more than weight that affects things.

[wiljen]

Quickload predicts that load at over 56,000 PSI. Headspace or not, it is well over the 42,000 PSI limit for the 30-30. It also shows that load as being better than 12% Compressed which should have been the first clue that it wasn't a good starting load. That's a helluva lot of compression for any smokeless load.

Many here have said he should have backed off by 10% and while absolutely true, in this case it would have still been a maximum charge. QL predicts 32gr at better than 40,000 PSI - while not an overcharge, it is still a compressed load and still at the top end of the pressure scale.

This illustrates why it is always a good idea to have several sources of data and compare them. If a load looks out of step with the other manuals - it probably is and should be approached as such.

[leadman]

If you look at some of the other loads for the 30-30 you will notice that they are also what I consider way too hot. That is why I threw the manual in the trash.
I was reading P.O. Ackley's Hanbook for Shooter's & Reloaders last night and couldn't believe what I read. There is a copy of a letter from Vernon Speer to P.O. The guist of it is Speer used no pressure testing equipment other than a micrometer to measure expansion on the rim along with sticky extraction, etc. The letter was dated Feb. 6.1958.

[Char-Gar]

Ackley's book contain some pretty giddy stuff. Most of it was furnished by others who had no way of measuring pressure. Ackley was just the collection point for some over the top wildcatters. I remember those days, and we did just melt some case heads. Lucky anybody is alive to tell the story.

[w30wcf]

Some history......the 150/35/3031 recipe goes back to at least 1936, 1 year after IMR3031 was introduced according to the DuPont "Better Loads For Better Shooting" that I have.

Velocity is shown at 2,500 f.p.s. in a 26" barrel. No pressure is shown. They show a seating depth of .30 and an o.a.l. of 2.80" which is a bit unusual.

This appears to be a case where old data was just copied and brought forward. Not a good idea since we know that 3031 produced in 1936 is not necessarily the same as later lots.

Stay safe.
w30wcf

[Rocky Raab]

I'd wager the case volumes were different, we know that the corrosive primers of the day were weaker, and bullet jacket material was nothing like we use today, also.

They didn't list a pressure because they didn't DO pressure testing then. Some didn't start using even the crusher system until the 1970s, believe it or not. SAAMI didn't exist in the 30s, and so there were no standards of any kind for cartridges or guns. Not even cartridge or chamber dimensions were standardized; you couldn't be sure that Winchester ammo would fit your Marlin rifle, or vice-versa.

All things considered, using current data is a wee bit smarter, no?

[TAWILDCATT]

30/30 headspaces on rim.BUT if you neck size only,the case still headspaces on the rim.what it does is push the case against the bolt.correcting any streech.
I load 30/06 with red dot and lead bullet at 1680 fts.since it is very accurate I would hunt with it as it will kill if placed in right spot.You dont have to push the envelope on your loads.I dont load any thing to max and I enjoy my shooting.its safe.I have seen many guns that have burst and have a 357 given to me burst the barrel and took the frame out at the barrel.just saw a bunch of 40 cal that burst[pictures]:coffee:[smilie=1:

[w30wcf]

Rocky,
Actually, before there was SAMMI, I believe that cartridge pressures were established by firearm manufacturers. THey designed the guns and thus knew what pressures they would withstand.

For example, I have a copy of a Winchester Ballistic Lab record dating back to August 27, 1914 for the .30 Winchester (.30-30). It indicates max individual pressure @ 38,000.

Also have some interesting pressure data from Winchester on Definitive Proof loads for the .30 Win. that developed from 45,000 - 55,000 psi.(!) dating back to 1906.

w30wcf

[Rocky Raab]

Absolutely true, John. But there were no uniform industry-wide standards on pressure or anything else. Each company could make them and test them (or not) any way they chose to. That's partly why ammo wasn't readily interchangeable among guns: it might not fit, and if it did it might be loaded to a pressure another company's gun wouldn't withstand.

And people think it's complicated today! Sheesh!