Fouling shots..are they necessary?

[superior]

Hi guys..It seems that whenever I get up in the hills to test ammo, I always fire a fouling shot because I've been led to believe that without one, grouping will be erratic. My understanding is that it creates a better bore condition for the subsequent shots. Is this true? It sounds perfectly logical but is there any way the bore can be prepped for shooting groups without doing so? Can it be done by running a few dry patches through the barrell or perhaps treating the bore with another chemical? I have plenty of brass for 7.62x39 so with that rifle, I'm not that concerned. However I have limited 303 brass and I don't like the idea of shooting the fruits of my labor out the window (so to speak) in the belief that it's absolutely necessary. All responses will be greatly appreaciated. Thanks!:|

[docone31]

I don't know. I fire paper patched loads. I have not needed a fouling shot.
My thoughts however, the fouling shot tempers the bore with lube and minor fouling. These contribute to lowering friction to an extent.
A person cannot really grease the bore as it might make a bore obstruction. With a muzzle loader, the lube is spread on the bore as the projectile is loaded, then when fired, the lube path is mosly there.
Just some thoughts, will be interesting to see any tests done.

[ChuckS1]

I do it with my bolt action .223. My first round is always in a different place than the subsequent rounds.

[oldtoolsniper]

Is this just for CB's? I have never heard of it. It is not taught in sniper school for the military, nor is it taught to the law enforcement snipers. I would imagine that first shot into a random area would give them away. I have never seen a hunter do it.

[454PB]

That's my thinking, too. When you're hunting, you don't have the luxury of a fouling shot. For me, grouping is secondary to first shot placement.

What I do is test fire my hunting loads at the bench, then leave the barrel uncleaned until the season is over. However, I want that first shot to land exactly where the sights are set.

[superior]

I've heard it all of my life, and I'm trying to discover whether it's just a myth. When I hunted, I fouled the barrell previous to going into the hunting field and I just assumed that snipers did the same. It's interesting to know that sniper training doesn't include fouling the barrell. I'm curious to know whether they shot from a cold, oiled bbl or from a dried or chemically treated one. The answer to that mystery will go along way toward answering my original question.

[Recluse]

Is this just for CB's? I have never heard of it. It is not taught in sniper school for the military, nor is it taught to the law enforcement snipers. I would imagine that first shot into a random area would give them away. I have never seen a hunter do it.

Ditto.

Every instructor I've ever had has always said, "Make your first shot count." Never heard them say, "Make your first shot a fouling shot, then get to the business of shooting the bad guys (or deer, or elk)." :)

:coffee:

[pdawg_shooter]

With jacketed many rifles put the first shot outside of the actual group. Fact is all but 2 of mine do. However, since 95% of my rifle load are paper patched cast I seldom have to worry about it. Every rifle I own puts all the paper patched into the same hole. Paper patching also make bore cleaning super easy. One patch wet with Shooter Choice, followed by 2 dry and a final patch with Brakefree CLP and you are done!

[Johnw...ski]

I often shoot from a bench with front and rear rests to test different loads. I have observed that the rifles I am most currently shooting, a 45-70, 38-55, .35 Whelen and a 30-06 (M1 Garand), all except the M1 are cast boolits the M1's are jacketed, shoot about 2 inches high and usually slightly left but not always at 100yards from a clean barrel. After no more than two shots they settle down into their usual group. So I would say they are probably attaining slightly higher velocity with a clean barrel causing a slightly higher point of impact. This is probably only important to a bench rest shooter or the most skilled competative shooter. I pay attention to fouling shoots when shooting for a group from the bench, personally I am not a good enough shooter for it to matter much in a match, especially when shooting offhand even though I try to shoot from a fouled barrel when I want the shots to count.

I am going to go out on a limb here and will probably receive some comments about my next thought. It seems to me through some experience that the high shots from a clean barrel are pretty close to the same amount of height as the range increase. In other words I feel that the trajectory is slightly higher but still more or less the same unlike a sight adjustment that moves the point of impact a given amount at 100 yards and is multiplied as the range increases. This is just an observation I have made but never verified.

John

[felix]

Fouling shots are strictly for group shooting using guns known to be erratic for any reason. Use junk ammo for the fouling shots, i.e., unweighed boolits. BR guns typically do not need fouling shots as fouling shots, but are made to feel out the ambient conditions when thought to be different immediately before a mandatory subsequent record shot. In this sport, there is no such thing as scrap ammo. A sighter target, having a big letter "S" imprinted on it, is very close to the record target. ... felix

[Down South]

I’ve always been under the impression that a fouling shot was for a rifle barrel that had been cleaned. After the fouling shot out of a clean barrel then no more fouling shots would be required till the barrel was cleaned again. Of course this is just my assumption and is what I have always done.

[rockrat]

Some guns shoot close to POI for a clean barrel vs a dirty barrel. Some guns will change a couple of inches. I have both. My 450 Bushmaster will change with a clean barrel vs dirty when shooting cast. I guess it has to "season" the bore with a little lube first, and then if I switch to jacketed, they have to purge the barrel of lube first, before they will start grouping.

[mooman76]

They showed this on a segment on Shooting USA. Yes the shot placement does change after fowling. They showed the first and second shots being off. He explained it better on the show and even told where the bullet would typically hit after the first and second shot. The amount of movement was small and as always each gun will be different. As I remember the first shot would be a little high and to the right (about 1")the second would drop down and over some and the the third would be where the gun would normally shoot, after fowling of coarse and gun with opposite twist would do the same from the other side. Since hunting loads don't need to be pinpoint on it doesn't really affect them all that much.

[oldtoolsniper]

There are a lot of things that go into a sniper rifle. The one used in the Marine Corps are Frankenstein rifles. They are Remington BDL’s with Winchester triggers and custom turned barrels so when someone says they have a USMC sniper rifle I assure you they do not. It may look like one and be painted like one but it is not. Those rifles have a lot of work put into them with a handmade and very expensive scope sitting on top. They are shot out to 1000 meters and they are deadly accurate. When they hit somewhere around 3000 rounds they are re barreled and start over. The ammunition used in them is tracked by the lot number in a gun book and each shot is recorded in the same gun book. It is all match grade and strictly controlled in it’s manufacture. When a new lot number is assigned the weapon is sighted in to that lot number. The book also records any work performed on the weapon and the torque applied to the screws holding the action in. The barrels are oiled for storage and cleaned dry before firing. They do not take” Fowling Shots” when the rifle is employed. Each sniper has his own weapon. It is set up for him and him alone. The targets they shoot at often times shoot back. They are trained by some of the best and they are not trained to shoot “fowling shots” Ever hear the saying “one fowling shot then one shot one kill”?

[JSnover]

If you must know where your first shots are going, fire a string through a clean, cold barrel. Clean it and let it cool after each shot. Then if you plan on 'one shot-one kill' you head to the field with a clean, cold barrel and you'll know where you first shot goes. If you plan to shoot a string without cleaning between shots, fire a fouler into the berm or the spotting target and fire the rest for score. If you're Massad Ayoob, fire a fouler into a bullet trap every time you leave your house, in order to prep the bore and lock the action into battery. :razz:

[superior]

A-HA ! There's the answer I've been looking for! Thanks oldtoolsniper ! At least I know now that the barrells are cleaned dry before using! That was one of my questions! I wonder however if after a shot through a clean dry barrel, the subsequent shots will group on the first. hmmmmm....guess I'll just have to experiment.... I suspect that the rest of the shots will shoot to slightly different poi like other experienced shooters here have said already. I was able to extrapolate good info from all the replies, and for that, I'm greatful.....great website! JSnover, thank you for providing the most helpful answer of all.

[VintageRifle]

An article on first shot accuracy.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_7-4_OnAccuracy.htm

[missionary5155]

Good evening
I do not think all barrels are the same. But I do know alot depends on whether the barrel was cleaned previously.
Example... My two 1892 Wimmy 44-40 SRC will fire day after day (actually week after week) to the same spot if I do NOT clean the barrel(s). The lube I use is about 50/50 beeswax-bearing grease. I have NO leading, no fouling buildup and never any rust. So why clean.... But every now and then I do clean and then say "Why did I do that ?" I then oil the bore. Then first shot will strike low every time. It does not matter if I run a patch to clean out the oil or not... But one rifle will shoot much lower than the other.
My 45-70 with a Bauske barrel (a shade short of 34") does not seem to mind whatever ... uncleaned.. cleaned and oiled.. cleaned and dry... It just shoots to the same place.
BUT if I cleaned a barrel I try to remember to run a patch and juat figure the first round is just for fun / fouling and do not think about it.
Hunting presents the problem of where will that first shot really go... I find for me the simplest thing is to keep the muzzles taped shut so I do not need to clean then the barrel is about the same always. I do check it for rust when I unload but the tape (Black) seems to take care of moisture problems.
Mike in Peru

[docone31]

I was taught, to take a clean dry pad, and dry the bore after cleaning. Then when the bore was spotless, swab a little wax in the bore.
The reason, oil floats on water, water beads on wax.
My first shot was always dead on. When the barrel got heated, which takes a while with a 1" barrel, then the string would begin.
I have waxed my firearms ever since. The only rust I got was on oily surfaces after being stored.

[selmerfan]

For the first time ever in my shooting career, I experienced fouling benefits this week. The rifle is a .260 Remington Ruger M77 Mk II. I was shooting my 140 gr. cast RNGC WD Lyman #2 bullets ahead of 12 gr. of 700-X. They were left over rounds from a .260 I sold that shot them well. After about 10 rounds, my groups at 50 yds went from about 2" to cutting a ragged hole. I moved to 100 yds and was shooting 3/4" groups with 10 shots. I've never experienced fouling accuracy increase like this before, but I'm now curious what happens when I try it with other rifles.

[TC66]

I go to the range and shoot. Before leaving the range I clean the rifle bore and fire two fouling shots. Leave the bore alone and clean everything else. Go to the range next time and I shoot dead on.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

fouling shots (0ver the last forty-five years) have only been necessary when shooting groups. If you consider the target objectively, those USMC snipers so highly touted here do not have a really good record past 600 yards. If you executed every marine that missed under 1000 yards, you would have a new company every other week. If you make it every non-killing shot, twice a week. Military snipers, for some unknown reason, seem to have a mystique. You hear about amazing hits at fantastic yardages, but their logs indicate less than 30% first shot, hit and kills over that 600yd range. I went thru an in-country snipers school in the 23rd Inf in summer of 1969 under a lieutenant from the Montana ROTC program. His name was Lones Wiggers, and he proved to be a pretty good shot over the years. He always told us that "you cannot hit what you cannot see...". "Snipers do an amazing job when you consider the logistics. Take a walk in the woods some nice sunny afternoon. Drop a friend off half a mile away, and then try and spot him. Even if you know where he is, 99% of the time you can't see him.

Rich
Buff Killer

[oldtoolsniper]

I’m sorry I should have been more accurate in my statement. They fire on a 1000 meter range at paper targets and record their scores on a static (training) range. Why on earth you would shoot at something you can’t see is beyond me, and every basic shooting rule ever spoken or written. I would say if you cannot identify your target you dang well SHOULD NOT be shooting at it.

[cajun shooter]

I also have my paper work from sniper school and will agree with oldtoolsniper. The rifle is assigned to one sniper and as stated you keep a record book of each shot. The rifle is cleaned and a dry patch is run through the bbl before it's put away. The ammo is as stated logged in by lot number. I only wish that I could go back to that more youthful time in my life. The only thing I log in now is my meds. Later David

[BPJunky]

I dont claim to be an "expert"..but I have fired a couple rounds in my life...and no one has asked the right question yet.."What is your intended use of the rifle?" Snipers dont foul the barrel for obvious reasons...The first shot out of a clean cold barrel must be the winner. Target shooters on the other hand need to know where the round will hit on shots 2-40. Most hunters I know will foul the barrel to check zero, and then shoot at least two extra shots so they know the scope etc, hasnt been "bumped." My Sharps with BP and depending on the load will hit center..but 8 inches high.. on the fouling shot.

[Rodfac]

Every rifle has its own personality...it comes from the load developed for it, the bedding of action and barrel, the steel in the barrel relative to stress imposed by firing, and lastly, the amount of heat generated by the shot.

Combat and competition rifles which cannot be "fouled" prior to serious use MUST shoot groups without a fouling shot. They must also keep rapid fire groups consistent for any give number of shots. Barrel heating and its affect on grouping ability can be controlled by bedding, assuming good, stress free steel in the barrel itself.

My 'over the course' AR-15 is a case in point, both as to the fouling shot variation and barrel heating issues. It's set up with a fore end tube to allow use of the sling without affecting barrel vibrations. Every competitor I know cleans his rifle after each use...every time... My own procedure is to clean the bore with a bronze brush dipped in Hoppe's ...ten strokes. I swab the bore out after this with patches dipped in Hoppe's...another ten strokes. The final patch is wet and leaves a light coating of Hoppe's in the bore for short periods between matches, ie. a month or so. Prior to the next match, I swab out the bore again, then run a couple of dry patches through it. That's it. Testing from a strong, sling supported prone position, I cannot see any first shot deviation out to 300 yds. By the way, my cleaning procedure for the barrel comes from Derrick Martin who did the gunsmithing work on the trigger and tube. He's nationally know for his AR-15 work and shot for years on the All-Guard National Teams at Perry.

I use the same procedure for hunting rifles here in KY, using jacketed bullets. It's often damp, and I leave a very light coat of Hoppe's in the bore for its protection. Out to 2 hundred yards, I have very little deviation....ie less than two inches at that distance...negligible, and this from a 'wet' bore.

My Garands are much the same with jacketed stuff...but since they are 3 MOA rifles, the difference is very hard to quantify. The 03's are more accurate and I do see a difference. Again, only a MOA or less. Not enough to worry about for match work. A couple of M1 Carbines I have are not accurate enough to see any measurable difference. It is understood though, that getting any blue steel and wood rifle to shoot heated barrel goups consistently more or less requires a glass bedded action and most likely a free floated barrel. Not possible for Garands, Carbines, or 03's intended to be shot in CMP events.

Cast boolits are another story. With my lever Winchesters (.30-30, .25-20, .32-20, .218 Bee, and .38-55) and one Marlin 336 .44 Magnum, a couple fouling shots are necessary before I can count on the grouping. It's a lot more than the jacketed bullet deviation as well...on the order of 4 MOA. Hunting with the .30-30, .38-55, and Marlin .44, I foul the barrel, then leave it uncleaned for the rest of the hunt, weather permitting.

Cast boolits through the 03's also require a couple of fouling shots before they settle down. Conversely, when switching back to jacketed bullets after a session with cast, my first group with two of my 03's using jacketed bullets is always the best. The greasy bore residual from the cast session has some benefit that I can't understand. Be nice if I could find a way to duplicate the effect for match use. The heating effect is less evident with the smaller powder charges and I can find little 'walking' tendency up to ten shots or so.

JMHO...Rodfac

[sheepdog]

The correct answer is "whatever your gun shoots best with". Some of my guns shoot best dirty, some only clean, some only warm, some only cold.

Know thy gun as thy know thyself!

[superior]

I will be shooting only with cb's unless I'm carrying the jungle carbine for black bear defense while picking chantrell's. I'll also be deer and elk hunting with it this year. I have about 38 303 cases to practice with and a full box of federal 180gr softpoints for woods defense. I can see now that more 303 brass will be necessary to develop a pattern of my rifle's characteristics. For now, I'm going to concentrate on various loads to test accuracy and I'm still checking various lube combinations, so I'm in the mode of grouping for now. Deer season is a long way off so I still have time to pick your brains for good advice. I've read that "once a uniform bore condition is established, grouping gets better" I'm just afraid to leave the barrel dry between sessions. I've always thought it was necessary to oil the bore after shooting (which then calls for fouling shots to restablish a good uniformity of groups. This has been my experience.