Red Dot and 10mm

[snaggdit]

OK, looked through all my load books and none list Red Dot for the 10mm. I have info for the 40 S&W with Red Dot. I am looking to load cast 170gr SWC and 180gr TC. Any suggestions?

I just loaded the 170gr SWC for the 40 with 4.7gr Red Dot.
I loaded some cast 125gr 2R for the 9mm with 4.4gr Red Dot.
My best guess loads. Plan to hit the range to chrono them, but would like some input first.

Hell, as long as I'm at it, 45ACP with Red Dot.
215gr RF Lee says 4gr starting and ending
185gr 1R Lee says 4.8gr starting and ending.
Anyone have some experience with these boolits and Red Dot?

[Ole]

If I were you, i'd just use your .40 loads and put them together in your 10mm brass.

They will go a little slower, but should be plenty safe.

You're not looking for top velocity using RD in your 10mm anyway, right? :mrgreen:

[snaggdit]

It's for a buddy's gun and he is just looking for target loads. He found 200 new cases for $38 at the gun show last week. 10mm brass is not too common, I guess. I figure using light target loads the brass will last a long time. Do you think upping it to 5gr would be overkill?

[sheepdog]

You are correct. No data for 10mm on red dot. I know cause loaded 40 S&W today and when double checking the data in sources the load had "disappeared". Or so I thought until I noticed I was in the 10mm.

[Ole]

It's for a buddy's gun and he is just looking for target loads. He found 200 new cases for $38 at the gun show last week. 10mm brass is not too common, I guess. I figure using light target loads the brass will last a long time. Do you think upping it to 5gr would be overkill?

I looked at my old Speer #12 data. Going by that, they listed 5.5 grains of Bullseye as max load for 180 grain jacketed bullets in the .40 S&W. From that, it wouldn't appear you'd get in trouble loading 5.0 gr of RD under that weight of bullet in a 10mm case.

I've used W231 under the 175 grain SWC's in my 1076 before. I think the charge was around 4.5-4.7 grains. Velocity was in the 850 range, IIRC. That was a nice, pleasant-to-shoot round.

[35remington]

Can't speak about the 10mm from experience. I can about the 45 ACP.

Red Dot is pretty high energy stuff. It's faster than Bullseye.

The bullets you mention aren't in the catalog - at least, your weights seem off. If that's a 255RF, rather than a 215RF???, as I suspect, that's a deeply seated bullet and you don't want a lot of Red Dot under it. 4 grains and no more would be prudent; you'd better check feeding integrity to make sure your bullets aren't ka-chunking deeper in the case. It's not exactly a feed reliable profile for an automatic. I've seen better ideas for a bullet/powder combination to shoot in an auto.

I'm certainly not down on Red Dot - it's a great 45 ACP powder, and my favorite. It's better with 230's on down in weight IMO.

185 1R - not sure what you mean? You have a 185 grain 1 radius ogive RN? I must have missed that one too. 4.8 grains is plenty safe with that charge with a 185 and it will be well above target velocity levels, more of a standard load.

4.8 grains Red Dot will heave the 230 2R or 230 TC at a pretty good clip, and it may be as fast to somewhat faster than standard miltary ball loads, going anywhere from 830 to 880 fps depending upon which bullet is used and whether it's a 4 or 5 inch barrel. You might drop the load a few tenths to 4.5 grains if you want to duplicate ball but with a cast lead 230. FWIW.

[randyrat]

Bullseye is faster than RedDot...
BIGSLICK....You shoot 10mm... where are you on using Red Dot in the the 10mm

[Recluse]

Bullseye is faster than RedDot...


Randy, are you sure? My Hodgdon Annual lists Red Dot as #6 and Bullseye as #9 on the scale of fastest burning powders.

:coffee:

[snaggdit]

The bullets you mention aren't in the catalog - at least, your weights seem off. If that's a 255RF, rather than a 215RF???.

It is a 200gr Lee mold but drops WW at 215gr. I take it that 4gr would then be OK?


185 1R - not sure what you mean? You have a 185 grain 1 radius ogive RN? I must have missed that one too. 4.8 grains is plenty safe with that charge with a 185 and it will be well above target velocity levels, more of a standard load.

Got the mold without any info, so all I can go by is what it drops at. Another member sent it to me for an experiment I am working on, and since I won't be messing with the existing cavities, I dropped some boolits with it. Seems like a decent plinking round. Again, do I take it that 4gr would be OK then if it wasn't a 255 that would take up too much case length, resulting in higher pressures? Thanks!

[TC66]

OK looking in my Lyman 48th Edition I found the following. Page 346 Specifies Lyman #2 Alloy

Red Dot 150 Gr Cast Min 5.5 1144 to Max 6.5 1300

Red Dot 175 Gr Cast Min 5.5 1087 to Max 6.2 1194

Hope this helps. I can scan it and send it to you if needed.

TC

[snaggdit]

OK looking in my Lyman 48th Edition I found the following.

Specifies Lyman #2 Alloy

Red Dot 150 Gr Cast Min 5.5 1144 to Max 6.5 1300

Red Dot 175 Gr Cast Min 5.5 1087 to Max 6.2 1194

Hope this helps.

TC

Darn, that seems hot! I was going to try 5gr under the 175, but up to 6.2? Well, at least I know I will be well under max with 5gr. If I can get to the range with my friend and chrono it, I will know. Thanks for the info!

[TC66]

Happy to scan it and send it to you.

[35remington]

Recluse, Red Dot is most assuredly faster than Bullseye in the 45 ACP.

Powder burn rate charts are relative and do not directly translate when fired in cartridges. Powders swap rankings when actually fired rather than burned in a bomb calorimeter.

To the OP, 4 grains Red Dot would be fine. You are loading to nonstandard lengths, and those below 1.20" are not especially desirable in 1911's but many guns will feed these with early release magazines if below 1.2." Charges up to 5.2 grains will be fine under the 200 IME. With the Lee HG 68 copy, 5.2 Red Dot gets over 965 fps. You may not wish to go that hot.

Reliability may not be perfect.

[putteral]

I have used 4.5 grs of Red Dot in the 200gr SWC with no problems. Pretty accruate too. My Lee 200SWC mold drops my wheel weights at around 193-198.

[fredj338]

Can't speak about the 10mm from experience. I can about the 45 ACP.

Red Dot is pretty high energy stuff. It's faster than Bullseye.

Last time I looked, not many powders faster than Bullseye & RedDot is NOT one of them unless they have messed w/ the burn rate recently. I'll grant yo uI haven't shot any BE in about 25yrs though.
You can use the 40s&w data & be fine. The Lyman manual shows 6.2gr as max. for 175grRNLFP, but I wouldn't go there.
FWIW, 5gr of RD under a 200grLSWC runs 860fps from a 5" 1911.

[35remington]

"Last time I looked, not many powders faster than Bullseye & RedDot is NOT one of them unless they have messed w/ the burn rate recently."

Fred, there are many Johnny-come-latelys to this, and you aren't the only one. However, you're going by what you're heard rather than any recent experience with both Bullseye and Red Dot. If you are also going off "burn rate charts", please forget them and try it for yourself in loading these rounds rather than basing it off less relevant information - which applies to charts and calorimeter results and "estimated ranking" rather than actual use.

Red Dot is indeed faster. Try equivalent weights of both; Red Dot will outrun Bullseye, at least the recent lots I've tried. This is rather well known among the heavy powder usage pistoleers of 45 ACP.

Also, see R.H. Vandenburg's recent write up of Red Dot in Handloader. He concurs about Red Dot in metallic cartridges.

[Whitespider]

I have to agree with 35remington, I've tried both propellants in cartridges from .32 ACP through .45 Colt, Red Dot does burn quicker than Bullseye in most handgun loads.

[snaggdit]

Thanks a lot all! Once again, I knew I could count on you folks to help out.

[mpmarty]

Red Dot is absolutely NOT faster than BullsEye. In the first place, BullsEye is a pistol powder and not even listed for 12ga shotguns, whereas Red Dot is specifically listed as a shotgun powder. That said, I've got three 10mm pistols and use both BullsEye and Red Dot in them. 5.0 Grains of Red Dot and a 170gr Lee tumble lube cast gives me 920 fps the same as 4.5 Grains of BullsEye. If loading jacketed 200 gr bullets I use Power Pistol or Blue Dot for max loads. 700X is another fine shotgun powder that works well in 45acp and 10mm for mild loads. As long as you maintain at least 1.20" oal the 10mm works fine with the cast Lee 170gr TL boolit. I set mine all at 1.25" and leave them there regardless of what powder charge or boolit / bullet I'm loading. Keep in mind the "blown up" 38 special revolvers of the late sixties with 3.5grs of BullsEye that were never really satisfactorily explained. American Rifleman and other mags or the time ran articles and even H.P. White laboratories were retained to investigate the mystery and never came up with a definitive answer.

[Whitespider]

Red Dot is absolutely NOT faster than BullsEye.....5.0 Grains of Red Dot and a 170gr Lee tumble lube cast gives me 920 fps the same as 4.5 Grains of BullsEye.....

A single projectile, loaded in one cartridge, can’t definitively determine that one propellant is relatively quicker than another, with all projectiles in all cartridges. I said, “Red Dot does burn quicker than Bullseye in most handgun loads.”
But, because we’re talking about the 10mm, below is data from 47th Lyman Handbook;

10mm Automatic

Sierra 150gr JHP
Bullseye 7.0 / 1263 fps / 28,500 CUP
Red Dot 6.5 / 1243 fps / 28,800 CUP

Cast #401043 175gr
Bullseye 6.5 / 1199 fps / 28,300 CUP
Red Dot 6.2 / 1194 fps / 29,300 CUP

Cast #401638 175gr
Bullseye 6.4 / 1197 fps / 28,400 CUP
Red Dot 6.0 / 1152 fps / 28,700 CUP

Cast #401633 200gr
Bullseye 5.6 / 1102 fps / 29,300 CUP
Red Dot 5.9 / 1150 fps / 29,800 CUP

If you compare all the data, charge weight, velocity and pressure, it become quite obvious that the Ballistic Technicians in the Lyman lab found Red Dot significantly quicker than Bullseye in 10mm loads. An occasional load will swap the burn rate of the two propellants, but Red Dot does burn quicker than Bullseye in most handgun loads.

*

[C A Plater]

I'm sorry but what your comparison shows is that Red Dot has a higher energy density than Bullseye does, not that it is faster burning. Both are Alliant products and are similar in size, shape and burn rates but Bullseye is the faster burning powder according to Alliant and I believe them. Your comparison does show that merely substituting a slightly slower burning powder for another may result in dangerous loads. It would appears that Red Dot has more energy for a given weight than Bullseye.

[Whitespider]

I'm sorry but what your comparison shows is that Red Dot has a higher energy density than Bullseye does, not that it is faster burning. Both are Alliant products and are similar in size, shape and burn rates but Bullseye is the faster burning powder according to Alliant and I believe them
Your argument loses traction when put to the test. We’re talking relative burn rate (or relative quickness), not actual rate of burning. If I produce data for another cartridge, from the same Handbook, that completely reverses the charge weight/velocity/pressure ratios between the two propellants (I can, and will if you insist, but I’m at work right now and don’t have access to the book), will you then try to tell me that the energy density of the two has changed? Of course not, that would be silly.

There have been numerous attempts to rate the relative quickness by taking into account various factors, such as the density or energy content of powder, they fail the test. Here’s one example from Chuck Hawks;
“Relative Burning Rate is roughly proportional to the ratio of Muzzle Velocity (fps) to Powder Sectional Density (grs/sq.in). RBR = MV*D^2/PW
Now let's try to calculate RBR from IMR 30-06 cartridge reloading data. We know that a 52.5 grs load of 4350 can propel a 220 grain jacketed bullet at 2425 fps; first let's find the Powder Sectional Density:
PSD = PW/D^2 = 52.5/.308^2 = 553.4 gr./sq.in
Then let's calculate the RBR:-
RBR = MV*D^2/PW = 2425*.308^2/52.5 = 4.4”
The problem is that powder doesn’t burn at a constant rate from ignition to bullet exit when ignited in a firearms cartridge. If the powder charge is reduced, or increased, bullet velocity doesn’t change proportionally, and the above formula comes up with a different value. Perhaps the best explanation of relative quickness comes from the book Firearms, the Law, and Forensic Ballistics by Tom A. Warlow;
“The value for ‘Relative Quickness’ (RQ) for a powder is the rate at which the burning gunpowder yields its latent energy relative to some other powder being used as a reference standard.”
Notice that energy content, energy density or sectional density of the powder isn’t mentioned, nor taken into consideration in this example. It is strictly based on how fast the powder releases its energy regardless of how much energy it contains.

Really, the best way for us, as reloaders, to determine the relative quickness of powders in any given cartridge or application would be to but the same amount (by weight) of each powder in the cartridge and compare results. But there are problems with that method. Say we wanted to compare 2400 to Bullseye in the .38 Special for example, a maximum Bullseye load is 4.0 grains, and 4.0 grains of 2400 probably wouldn’t even get the bullet out the barrel. And if we increased the Bullseye load to weight levels usable with 2400, well....KaBoom!

Relative quickness is simply the comparison of charge weight/velocity/pressure ratios between the two propellants under like conditions, it has nothing to do with actual rate of burning, energy content or density. The relative quickness changes with variables, such as cartridge, projectile weight, powder charge weight, primer used, etc., etc., etc. And quite simply, Red Dot burns at a faster relative quickness than Bullseye in most handgun cartridges. Just because Alliant says that Bullseye has a faster relative quickness in what ever test they used doesn’t make it so in the 10mm.

[felix]

WS is correct, guys. It is the pressure curve that is important to us, and the accuracy obtained with whatever gun by the shape of the pressure curve within the barrel. Total amount of useful energy imparted to the boolit determines how fast it will depart from the barrel. The ratio of the "propellants" within the powder will determine how much energy is contained within the powder itself, but there is no guarantee 100 percent of any of the participants will be useful for the cartridge on hand. ... felix

[35remington]

Please also see Alliant's data for 45 ACP, and you may use their most recent publication if you wish. Bullseye and Red Dot are used with the 200 and 230 grain weights in their most recent data.

Observe the velocities and the charge weights.

On edit: incidentally, I've got Alliant published data for Bullseye and shotshell loads. Bullseye is usable there as well.

The dynamics of the shotshell are a little different, as a wad is present that crushes at relatively low pressures while the shot charge starts to move, opening up the combustion space relatively early.

[snaggdit]

There have been numerous attempts to rate the relative quickness by taking into account various factors, such as the density or energy content of powder, they fail the test. Here’s one example from Chuck Hawks;
“Relative Burning Rate is roughly proportional to the ratio of Muzzle Velocity (fps) to Powder Sectional Density (grs/sq.in). RBR = MV*D^2/PW
Now let's try to calculate RBR from IMR 30-06 cartridge reloading data. We know that a 52.5 grs load of 4350 can propel a 220 grain jacketed bullet at 2425 fps; first let's find the Powder Sectional Density:
PSD = PW/D^2 = 52.5/.308^2 = 553.4 gr./sq.in
Then let's calculate the RBR:-
RBR = MV*D^2/PW = 2425*.308^2/52.5 = 4.4”


Tried to follow the math. I did obtain a math minor wayyyyy back. I have to be able to picture what we are ending up with. In your example, the answer (RBR) is in inches? I tried to see how this ended up that way and come up with this:
(Feet Inches^2)/(grain seconds)
Where am I off?
Sorry if this is a dumb question.

[Whitespider]

snaggdit,

Yeah, it took me a little while to figure out what he meant also. It's not my example, it's a quoted formula fro Chuck Hawks.
Near as I can figure, his Powder Sectional Density is the volume of the powder in square inches. I believe he than goes on to form a ratio of by dividing his PSD into Muzzle velocity, i.e. MV/PSD=2425/553.4=4.38, which closely matches his formula for RBR of 4.4. His MV/PSD allows for powder density, where his RBR formula does not.

Kind'a like "fuzzy math", ain't it?

[snaggdit]

Relative Burning Rate is roughly proportional to the ratio of Muzzle Velocity (fps) to Powder Sectional Density (grs/sq.in). RBR = MV*D^2/PW
Now let's try to calculate RBR from IMR 30-06 cartridge reloading data. We know that a 52.5 grs load of 4350 can propel a 220 grain jacketed bullet at 2425 fps; first let's find the Powder Sectional Density:
PSD = PW/D^2 = 52.5/.308^2 = 553.4 gr./sq.in
Then let's calculate the RBR:-
RBR = MV*D^2/PW = 2425*.308^2/52.5 = 4.4[/b][/i]”


But, because we’re talking about the 10mm, below is data from 47th Lyman Handbook;

10mm Automatic

Sierra 150gr JHP
Bullseye 7.0 / 1263 fps / 28,500 CUP
Red Dot 6.5 / 1243 fps / 28,800 CUP

Cast #401043 175gr
Bullseye 6.5 / 1199 fps / 28,300 CUP
Red Dot 6.2 / 1194 fps / 29,300 CUP

Cast #401638 175gr
Bullseye 6.4 / 1197 fps / 28,400 CUP
Red Dot 6.0 / 1152 fps / 28,700 CUP

Cast #401633 200gr
Bullseye 5.6 / 1102 fps / 29,300 CUP
Red Dot 5.9 / 1150 fps / 29,800 CUP

If you compare all the data, charge weight, velocity and pressure, it become quite obvious that the Ballistic Technicians in the Lyman lab found Red Dot significantly quicker than Bullseye in 10mm loads. An occasional load will swap the burn rate of the two propellants, but Red Dot does burn quicker than Bullseye in most handgun loads.

OK, lets crunch it:

Sierra 150gr JHP
Bullseye 7.0 1263 fps
Red Dot 6.5 1243 fps

RBR(BE) = MV*D^2/PW = 1263*.401^2/7 = 29.013
RBR(RD) = MV*D^2/PW = 1243*.401^2/6.5 = 30.750

Cast #401043 175gr
Bullseye 6.5 1199 fps
Red Dot 6.2 1194 fps

RBR(BE) = MV*D^2/PW = 1199*.401^2/6.5 = 29.662
RBR(RD) = MV*D^2/PW = 1194*.401^2/6.2= 30.967

Cast #401633 200gr
Bullseye 5.6 1102 fps
Red Dot 5.9 1150 fps

RBR(BE) = MV*D^2/PW = 1102*.401^2/5.6 = 31.643
RBR(RD) = MV*D^2/PW = 1150*.401^2/5.9= 31.343

So, I guess we see why it is stated in MOST pistol loads, Red Dot is a faster burning powder.

I just want it to go boom, and not Ka-Boom! LOL

[Whitespider]

snaggdit

Thanks for doing the math; I didn’t bother because I don’t subscribe to formulas of that sort. Your number-crunching illustrates the flaw(s) in this formula; it ignores pressure, or assumes all pressures are equal in a comparison. The math (in this particular formula) shows that, in the 200 grain boolit load, Bullseye is ever-so-slightly “quicker” than Red Dot, but no consideration is made for the 500 CUP higher pressures with Red Dot. If the 200 grain boolit loads were adjusted so pressures were equal I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to find the math still showing Red Dot the slightly “quicker” propellant.

Still, even without the formula, we can look at the data and see that the two propellants become closer in relative quickness as projectile weight increases. Possibly, if Lyman would have used both propellants with, say, a 220 grain projectile, Bullseye would have emerged as the “quicker” of the two.

[snaggdit]

OK, went to my friend's today to test the loads. I loaded some 170gr Cast SWC using 5.5, 5.7 and 5.9gr Red Dot. 5.5 seemed to be adequate. Also loaded the same under some no name 180gr JHP. 5.7 was accurate. Lastly, dropped the loads .2 for 180gr Cast TC, 5.3, 5.5 and 5.7. Both 5.5 and 5.7 seemed fine. My new Chrony was a washout. Don't know what it's problem is so all we could go by was feel and accuracy. Thanks for the all the info, it allowed me to guestimate a range to try. Now I get to fill his 200 cases...

Wish I could have found out the speeds, though! I'm going to contact Chrony and see if they can recommend anything for it. I bought it at a gun show 2 weeks ago for $40. It seemed brand new in the box. It turns on (I used a new battery), reads 0000 and when we fired across it it either read 0000 or sometimes 0002 then 0004 then 0008 then 0012. The LCD also started to fade after a minute or so. Turned it off then back on and same deal. 0002 and fading screen. I have an old one that I shot through the top right edge of the far sensor (I was prone on a tarp on a foot of snow and my elbow sunk as I fired!). Didn't take out the sensor, just mangled the plastic that holds it. My friend suggested swapping some parts. I will probably end up doing that if Chrony doesn't offer to fix it.

[grumman581]

I have read this thread and I have to wonder if everyone is using the same definition for "quickness".

It would seem to me that the optimal powder from an end velocity standpoint would be one that reached the the maximum pressure of the barrell quickly and maintained that pressure until the bullet was out of the barrel. Of course that would not be best for firearms that have tapered barrels. For them, maintaining that pressure would likely over stress the barrel as the wall thickness got less.

As such, I had thought that the quickness of a powder was how soon it convert its potential chemical energy into physical energy (i.e. increase the pressure in the barrel) and not how fast the bullet exited the barrel. Unfortunately, we don't have the tools necessary to measure the pressure graph of a powder and bullet combination and as such end up making our judgements from secondary indications (e.g. bullet velocity).

[jonp]

Randy, are you sure? My Hodgdon Annual lists Red Dot as #6 and Bullseye as #9 on the scale of fastest burning powders.

:coffee:

I've got Bullseye at #13 and Red Dot faster at #8 on my Hodgdon's chart

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

[WilliamDahl]

I previously was shooting 6.2g of Red Dot in 10mm, but I am dropping it back to 6.0g since my powder measure (Dillon) sometimes drops +/- 0.1g when I'm measuring Red Dot.

[MtGun44]

Whitespider ends the discussion with facts. Takes less Red Dot to make
max pressure than BE in the 10mm.

Important take-home is that powders can't be absolutely rated as to speed
without the context of the cartridge that you are comparing them to. Burn
rate charts are general guides, but not absolute hard facts.

Bill

[jonp]

I have used 4.5 grs of Red Dot in the 200gr SWC with no problems. Pretty accruate too. My Lee 200SWC mold drops my wheel weights at around 193-198.

4.6gr Red Dot under a 200gr SWC works fine for me.
My books have Red Dot faster than Bullseye also but I do have one source only that lists Bullseye faster.