Bullet Lub E Question?

[Blacktail 8541]

What Are Your Favorite Bullet Lubes For Pistol Loads, Plain Base And Gas Checked. With Info On Bull Shops' Speed Green , And Lbt Blue The Focus But Not The Only Intrest. I Have No Intrest In Makeing My Own. I Live In Northern California And Summer Temps Get Into The Tripple Digets, With Lows Being In The Mid To Low 30s' .

[Dale53]

I have used NRA mix of Alox and Beeswax since E.H. Harrison developed it. I have done both home-mix and store bought. Here is an address that has the best price on Alox I have seen:
http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html

For black powder cartridge rifles and schuetzen use, I use Emmert's Home Mix.

Dale53

[StarMetal]

Dale

He's one of our members, Lars45. He has fair prices.

Joe

[nemo]

I live in Tucson Az. and use LBT Blue since 83 or84 in .256 win mag,.357 Mag& Harret(14) .32mag .30 30 ..3030 is rifle rest are T.C.`s 10 with scopes.No leading to speak of,and highest vlosity at coke can accurate loads.5 out of 5 at 100yds. I use the slower powers and some boolets have gas checks

[lar45]

Hi, email me your address to idahobronco@aol.com and I'll send you a free sample to try. I make an Alox lube that should work for all pistol loads and also a High Speed lube with Carnauba. It does require some heat to get it to flow.
Glenn.

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/pics/hs-02.jpg


What Are Your Favorite Bullet Lubes For Pistol Loads, Plain Base And Gas Checked. With Info On Bull Shops' Speed Green , And Lbt Blue The Focus But Not The Only Intrest. I Have No Intrest In Makeing My Own. I Live In Northern California And Summer Temps Get Into The Tripple Digets, With Lows Being In The Mid To Low 30s' .

[44man]

LBT Blue is good for the higher speeds. LBT Magnum is good for revolvers, etc. Alox and beeswax is also good.
Lar makes good lubes but I will tell you a secret! Lar buys maker's mark whiskey to get his carnauba wax and I won't tell how many bottles he goes through---HEE HEE.

[Blacktail 8541]

That Was Great 44man , I Like His Secret.

[Bass Ackward]

What Are Your Favorite Bullet Lubes For Pistol Loads, Plain Base And Gas Checked. With Info On Bull Shops' Speed Green , And Lbt Blue The Focus But Not The Only Intrest. I Have No Intrest In Makeing My Own. I Live In Northern California And Summer Temps Get Into The Tripple Digets, With Lows Being In The Mid To Low 30s' .


Blacktail,

Pistol lube? You have outlined your temperature criteria, but how do you prefer to shoot? Fast powders up to 1000 fps? Balls to the wall? Casual plinking or fanning a cylinder? Helps in the recommendation.

[anachronism]

When I buy lube, I really like Thompson Blue Angel.

[Blacktail 8541]

My Shooting Pace Is Not Furious , But Substained At About 100 To About 125 Per Hour. Once In A While I Will Shoot Faster. Most Of My Pistol Loads Are Just Below Max With Little Gun Powder In , 357mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag And 45 Colt Ruger Levels. The Only Powders Other Than Little Gun Is Universal Clays And Aa#5 For The 45 Acp And 45 Colt. These Last Two Are The Only Guns Used For Light Loads, And Not A Whole Lot At That. When A Gun Gets Real Warm I Let It Cool While I Shoot Another.

[waksupi]

My Shooting Pace Is Not Furious , But Substained At About 100 To About 125 Per Hour. Once In A While I Will Shoot Faster. Most Of My Pistol Loads Are Just Below Max With Little Gun Powder In , 357mag, 41 Mag, 44 Mag And 45 Colt Ruger Levels. The Only Powders Other Than Little Gun Is Universal Clays And Aa#5 For The 45 Acp And 45 Colt. These Last Two Are The Only Guns Used For Light Loads, And Not A Whole Lot At That. When A Gun Gets Real Warm I Let It Cool While I Shoot Another.

Kinda hard to read. Mind loosing some caps? You're confusing the old farts. (Me)

[Bass Ackward]

Blacktail,

Because of everything you mention, you are placing the highest demands on a bullet lube. We never even talked about any of your bullet designs. Lighter bullets tend to carry much less lube and they too require more even in the best of shooting conditions.

Even if you aren't requiring it all the time, you need it when you do. Add to this that I have no way to determine bore conditions of your guns and what you might get in the future. All of this plus it must be commercially made.

Just like the old commercial that "IF it REALLY has to be there over night, .......... I would recommend Bullshop's Speed Green lube with some modification. His full synthetic is probably overkill for most pistols when you don't need it, but it's there when you do. I have found no adverse "accuracy" effects on the batch I am using and I have heated things up pretty well in a wheeler. And right now I am using a softer mix too.

But if you decide to order it from him, I would buy some Carnuba flakes and send it up to him asking that he use that as a hardener. The mix I made myself would be entirely too soft to stay in wide groove bullet designs during handling in warm weather when all lubes with Bees wax are prone to soften. If he hardens it, you will then probably need a heater. But you should have the best lube for high heat, high velocity under ALL possible bore conditions around.

You could try one stick first just to be sure even without hardneing it being the time of year that it is. LBT Blue would probably be my next choice if you were in my climate shooting your conditions for pistol. But friends that I know say that it fails in extreme heat climates.

[StarMetal]

Bass,

In researching one comes across something else he wasn't even looking for. I came across info on bullet lube looking at barrel wear info. So I don't remember who it was, but it was someone that was prominant in the gun business and shooting world and flatly put he thought the hard lubes were the worse of the bunch. Basing it on lube should not stay with the bullet but rather do it's job lubing the barrel. He started on his regime for a good lube when he first notices lube on his targets at 100 yards. He though...hmmmm that shouldn't be there, should be in the barrel.

So I dunno...I'm not a big user of hard lubes and I can't say I've had any disasterous failures with soft lube.

As to Bullshops speed green being overkill I reckon my lube is too. I'll bet that my lube and Bulls aren't very different. I'll also bet that many lube makers out there, not talking companies but individuals, have made the same thing as Bull and I and may not have even known it. I question too why Dan has a little amount of the original Alox 2138F. I had asked him to sell me just a wee bit, but the answer was no. This leads me to suppect that his speed green isn't anything that hasn't already been tried. I've said this before and will say it again, I don't think it takes much of a lube to lube. Dan from Mountain Moulds and I believe lube seals more then it lubes. I really doubt that anyone concocting lube have come across anything tha Harris didn't try in those NRA Cast Bullet book tests. I believe Junior has a pretty decent lube too. You'll notice that Lars45 main lube is basically the 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.....just like I think that's a hard one to beat.

I think alot of opinions about lubes may come from other factors then the lubes tried. I think someone may get leading from other reasons and then condemn the lube they were using at the time, and when that leading problem stopped for whatever reason they praise and think the lube they were using then is the best. Until someone can pinpoint 100 percent exactly what bullet lube does in centerfire smokeless loads, the perfect lube will never be invented, unless it already has.

Joe

[Char-Gar]

I have been using the same lube for pistol loads for 45 years with 100% satisfaction. I use beeswax softened with enough Vasaline so it will work in the lube/size machine. The porportions are not critical, but about 60/40 was to jelly is about right.

I have tried about every lube that comes down the pike, but have no found any that work better. Some are just as good, but none better. This lube works in light bullseye loads to full snort magnum, plain base or gas check.

[felix]

Across the board of lubes, the synthetics have to be taken very seriously as per application. Some are extremely hard to clean up after, such as a polymerized urea composition. Nothing we typically use to clean a barrel will take this stuff out. Just be careful when playing with some of these greases. If it won't wipe off your hands to in terms of coming off clean enough, soon enough, for example, be especially cautious. ... felix

[Bullshop]

Bass
When I origonaly posted the recipe for Speed Green, cant remember what thread it was but I did include the proportion of carnauba I like to firm up the lube. As you said I use the flake form of pure carnaube at .5oz per 1lb of lube. This will still work through a lube sizer at room temp without heat, but when the lubed boolits are left out for 24hrs the surface of the lube will dry and handle without stickyness.
It is important to pre melt the carnauba before adding to the lube. The carnaube has a high melting point and I dont like to bring the be wax up to that temp. I dont like for it to smoke, too hot. I melt the bee wax in a double boiler to prevent scorching. Anytime your getting smoke you are burning and forming carbon, which is what we are trying to keep to a minimum in the barrel. We get plenty from burning powder.
Once the carnauba is melted it will blend much better with the lube.

Joe
Again as I posted on the origonal thread the reason the the addition of .5oz allox per 1lb of lube was not to enhance the lube, but to aid in releace of the lube sticks from the molds. I use copper tubes for my lube molds and the small ammount of allox almost makes the sticks fall from the molds but without the allox they must be pushed out. If they must be pushed out and are still soft it tends to partly close the center hole. That is the only reason I add allox and if the lube is not being cast into sticks it is not neaded.
BIC/BS

[Blacktail 8541]

In regard to bullet designs, I tend to lean on the side of middle to higher weight. My 45 acp is 215grn rnfp. Single lube groove. My 45 Colt is plain base single lube grove with a weight of 285grns, 41 mag is 250 grain GC with two equal lube grooves. they all carry a minumn of .4 grains of lube. The single band grooves are a minumun of .10 in the dual bands are an average of .070 wide. These are all desgned on Dans' webb sight, Most all are based on existing designs with slight modifications to suit me, little wider base, more lube surface, but the biggest mods are nose profile. Mine I like at 73% of bullet diamiter. Wide , but not so wide they are hard to stabilize.

[Blacktail 8541]

The 45 acp is the exception with a nose of 62%

[Bass Ackward]

As to Bullshops speed green being overkill I reckon my lube is too.

Dan from Mountain Moulds and I believe lube seals more then it lubes. Until someone can pinpoint 100 percent exactly what bullet lube does in centerfire smokeless loads, the perfect lube will never be invented, unless it already has.

Joe


Joe,

What I meant about being over kill is that most bullet lubes perform best when they are just .... slipery enough for the pressure application at which they are used. In the case of Bullshops, I notice no accuracy loss even though his lube is slippery enough for the highest pressure / velocity applications.


I have read Fryxell's theory about lube sealing. All I can say is that for something to be true, it has to always be true. While I understand and agree with his description of forces affecting lube displacement in a bore, I disagree on a seal. Here are three violations that I know of with the "seal theory".

1. Norm Johnson shoots cast in his 357 magnum at 1500 fps with no lube what so ever. NONE!!!! It was written up in one of the Fouling Shot magazines with pictures. Good groups too!

2. Then I have a bullet that I run over 2000 fps in a 44 rifle that the only lube groove is the GC groove. It leaves enough lube to take care of the next bullet down the pipe. (That blew Dan's mind when he made that one. :grin:)

3. Considered the best form of rifling for cast, Cut rifling is where the grooves have parrallel to bore tool marks that run the entire length of the barrel. In other words it is impossible to form a "lube seal". And it is written that old timers used to have the grooves of their muzzle loaders "freshened up" when the started to wear smooth to "improve" performance.

So that does the "Seal theory" for me.

I believe that lubes lube. I believe that lube needs to be used as sparingly as possible because when it is left in the bore, it becomes a hydrolic fouling for the next shot that can size down the bullet and cause you to LOSE seal. (and strip too) Thus lowering your velocity ceiling or causing you to need harder bullets for the same application.

Just so you know my position. :grin: (Like you really wanted to right?)

[StarMetal]

Bass,

I don't think with the tight fit and high friction of a bullet that a bullet lubricant needs to be slippery. There's a big difference between lubes that don't have a high friction application and ones that do. With that said I don't believe todays bullet lubes are "slippery" compared to some really slippery oil or lubes out there. One example of a very very slippery oil is fish oil. I dropped a screw driver in a pan of fish oil and although I could grab it to pick it up, I couldn't hold on to it. That stuff was really slippery. If slippery was good for bullets I'm sure we'd be oiling up our jacketed bullets, but then we'd find are accuracy going to heck. So just a little oil then? No...it's just not done to jacketed. Those moly coats another story and in my opinion more developed to cut barrel wear and jacket fouling.

I never said that bullet lubes duty was 100 percent sealing. I just said I believe a good portion of it is.

I wish I had the energy and money ( I have the time) to go ahead and test all kinds of bullet lubes.

Joe

[Blacktail 8541]

Bullshop is your lube in need of hardining or is it as described hard enough to go thru a lubersizer with out needing a heater or a little softer and can be firmed up at the users descetion?

[Bullshop]

Bullshop is your lube in need of hardining or is it as described hard enough to go thru a lubersizer with out needing a heater or a little softer and can be firmed up at the users descetion?

Blacktail 8541
Well sir I feel a bit silly but must confess I dont realy understand your question so I will just ramble a bit.
I mostly use the basic formula without any hardining. If someone wants a bit harder or less tacky I add the carnauba for them. Both ways still go through the lube sizer at room temp without heat.
I use only raw yellow bees wax. I got some of the BIG BUY wax from LAR 45 and it did not work well. It changed the lube consistancy to be very soft.
The wax I got from him did not look like raw wax to me. It was too clear and had no sweet odor of honey what ever even when melted.
All other raw wax I have used will fill the room with a sweet odor when being melted. I dont know why the difference but that wax does not work with the proportions I have given. It will work but the proportions must be adjusted.
I have found the raw yellow/brown wax that still contains the natural glues is best.

I guess If a person is not satisfied with the consistancy of the formula I have given there is no harm in firming it or softening it for that matter.
What matters is the way you do it. I will never add parifin to any lube. In my experiance it degrades the quality of the lube. It will reduce the velocity potential of the lube.
I will also never add any solid material as mica as some do to eliminate tackyness. In my experiance it degrades accuracy.
If you want harder add bee wax if you want softer add more Bull Plate and thats the only way I would do it.
I am shure that some here will disagree with my views on the use of parifin, and of solids such as mica or graffite but I just call em like I see em and thats the way it shakes out for me.
Try it all yourself and make up your own mind. Thats realy the best way, and the only way you can ever be satisfied your doin things the bast way.
BIC/BS

[felix]

That's true, Daniel, about petro products reducing the velocity potential of a lube. This is why adding castor oil is a solution to that problem. ... felix

[Blacktail 8541]

You answered the question , basicaly wanted to know if it was not to sticky when handling or if it needed a bit of hardining.

[StarMetal]

Or fish oil , Felix

Joe

[felix]

Joe, yes indeed, fish oil is good, and this depends on how it is refined so it will mix into the lube properly. The downside is the smell of the finished lube. Besides, whale oil is far too good for shooting out of a barrel. A pure waste. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

First you can't call whale oil fish oil because a whale is a mammal. Ok, that out to the way, what fish can oil be produced from? My very first dirt bike was a 73 Yamaha DT2 250cc Enduro. I remember the first time I changed out the transmission oil. Boy, really weird looking stuff and I dropped my dang screwdriver in the pan I drained it into. I could well grab the screw driver but I sure as hell couldn't hold on to it. I'll have to say that is one of the most slippery lubes I've ever seen.

Yeah, no more killing the whale, leave them alone.

Joe

[felix]

Tranny fluid is great, Joe. It's a good lube ingredient. ... felix

[carpetman]

felix---you have been educated and enlightened greatly----you cant call whale oil fish oil. This mentoring came from none other than one that said ground hogs arent vegetarians because they eat a little fruit.

[StarMetal]

So much you know Carpetman, turns out I was more right then you. Here's what you said after my post: Starmetal---"Strictly vegetarian---except for a little fruit". That little fruit would make them carnivorous? They grow cows on fruit trees in your parts?

Now read:

A carnivore is an animal that gets food from killing and eating other animals.

A herbivore is an animal that gets its energy from eating plants (http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/marssim/simhtml/info/Whats-a-plant.html), and only plants

Omnivores (http://www.qrg.northwestern.edu/projects/marssim/simhtml/info/whats-an-omnivore.html) can also eat parts of plants, but generally only the fruits and vegetables produced by fruit-bearing plants.

So that makes a groundhog an ominvore.

Joe

[nighthunter]

Lar45 .... I wondered how you got that red tint to your lube ..... Maketrs Mark huh ......?
Nighthunter

[Blacktail 8541]

I apprieciate the help, but I think this discussion has strayed a bit.

[carpetman]

Joe---you side stepped the issue----the word I used was vegetarian--you gave no definition for that. You may have to invent your own word. I have invented one--BOOBACIOUS and it comes in handy every now and again and people easily grasp it's meaning.

[wills]

Felix,

First you can't call whale oil fish oil because a whale is a mammal. Ok, that out to the way, what fish can oil be produced from? My very first dirt bike was a 73 Yamaha DT2 250cc Enduro. I remember the first time I changed out the transmission oil. Boy, really weird looking stuff and I dropped my dang screwdriver in the pan I drained it into. I could well grab the screw driver but I sure as hell couldn't hold on to it. I'll have to say that is one of the most slippery lubes I've ever seen.

Yeah, no more killing the whale, leave them alone.

Joe

Definitions of fish oil on the Web:

Oil made from processing whole fish (usually small oily and bony fish such as menhaden or anchovy) and its byproducts. Fish oil is used as an ingredient in animal feed and is sold for consumer and commercial purposes.
www.oceansalive.org/explore.cfm

The most popular source of dietary omega-3 fatty acids is fish oil. Fatty fish, such as mackerel, lake trout, herring, sardines, and albacore tuna contain high levels of omega-3 in the forms of eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acid.
xnet.kp.org/permanentejournal/sum03/concepts.html

Paint drying agent made from oil from certain fish.
www.peakagents.ca/glossary/f7.htm

fish-liver oil: a fatty oil obtained from the livers of various fish
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Fish oil is oil derived from the tissues of fatty fishes. This oil naturally contains the Omega-3 fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Fish oil is now recommended for a healthy diet. It is beneficial to eat fish once a week (or more) but care must be taken to avoid the fish species which contain the toxin mercury or other contaminants such as Chlordane. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_oil

[StarMetal]

Joe---you side stepped the issue----the word I used was vegetarian--you gave no definition for that. You may have to invent your own word. I have invented one--BOOBACIOUS and it comes in handy every now and again and people easily grasp it's meaning.

Here it is Ray:

The term 'Vegetarian' was coined in 1847. It was first formally used on September 30th of that year by Joseph Brotherton and others, at Northwood Villa in Kent, England. The occasion being the innaugural meeting of the Vegetarian Society of the United Kingdom.

The word was derived from the Latin 'vegetus', meaning whole, sound, fresh, lively; (it should not be confused with 'vegetable-arian' - a mythical human whom some imagine subsisting entirely on vegetables but no nuts, fruits, grains etc!)

Prior to 1847, non-meat eaters were generally known as 'Pythagoreans' or adherents of the 'Pythagorean System', after the ancient Greek 'vegetarian' Pythagoras.

The original definition of 'vegetarian' was "with or without eggs or dairy products" and that definition is still used by the Vegetarian Society today. However, most vegetarians in India exclude eggs from their diet as did those in the classical Mediterranean lands, such as Pythagoras.


Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal---The vegetarian society might have started in 1857---but I doubt the word vegetarian was coined then. They probably had vegetarians all the way back to the Garden of Eden and didnt know what to cal them all those years?

[wills]

http://www.takeourword.com/TOW111/page4.html

[Blacktail 8541]

I did not ask about fish oils or their definitions, I asked about pistol bullet lubes.

[waksupi]

Blacktail, trying to keep this bunch on track, is as easy as herding ferrets. I've never seen it happen before, and doubt I ever will. For pistol, Javalina will work fine, as will practically any other lube. Pistols don't require all that great of a lube, and I have even heard of crayon being used.

I don't know why anyone would want to oil a fish for, anyhow. Probably easier than smoking them, though.

[Blacktail 8541]

Thanks, I didn't think I would be able to steer the other members back on course but I had to try, I needed some help and with the combined knowledge that is availabe here it is worth the effort.

[waksupi]

Well, I can see where they are headed, as any type of oil is a possible component to a bullet lube, and definitions and properties are important to the mix. So, I'm sure before this is all over, there will be a fish oil pistol lube developed. As to the expense or availability, ?....

[wills]

Well, I can see where they are headed, as any type of oil is a possible component to a bullet lube, and definitions and properties are important to the mix. So, I'm sure before this is all over, there will be a fish oil pistol lube developed. As to the expense or availability, ?....

Not petroleum products

[StarMetal]

Waksupi,

I've already made and use bullet lube I've made with fish oil in my rifles. Felix knows this and he and I discussed it. Works fine from far as I can see. It does have a peculiar odor. I told yall I experiment a tremendous amount, remember the Bubble Gum lube I sent Bass Ackwards?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Carpetman,

Seems my 1847 date was corrected by wills finding another site saying that.

Blacktail,

Fish oil in bullet lube is an excellent ingredient. Whether for pistol or rifle use.

Joe

[Blacktail 8541]

It probably is a good componet, but at this time I just have too many things going on to be able to take on another project, and more added expence. That is why I said that I was not interested in makeing my own. I can useally make or build just about anything and I do not like to settle for second best.

[yodar]

What Are Your Favorite Bullet Lubes For Pistol Loads, Plain Base And Gas Checked. With Info On Bull Shops' Speed Green , And Lbt Blue The Focus But Not The Only Intrest. I Have No Intrest In Makeing My Own. I Live In Northern California And Summer Temps Get Into The Tripple Digets, With Lows Being In The Mid To Low 30s' .

I use a lube devised by Adrian Pittfield who casts bullets for the European market. I call it ADRIAN's Goo because it is a soft tacky lube needing no heater. It is an excellent replacement for Alox beeswax but is MUCH less smoky

I use a 1 lb lithium grease-gun cartridge heated in a double boiler with 1 lb beeswax and pour it it into 1" PVC irrigation pipe plastic tubing with a 1/4" dowel rod in the center.

For rifle bullets I use John Paul Jones' adaptation of Saeco Green Lube
1 lb beeswax
1 lb parafffin
1lb (1/2 bottle) STP

a hard lube which is excellent...and it works for .45 acp and .9 mm and 7.62 x 25 pistol loads too! Much less smoke than alox beeswax -

Hell! Lets face it ! You cant get ALOX-2156 anymore anyway. that's why I make these lubes



Yodar

[StarMetal]

yodar,

Are you afraid of giving your firing position away to the enemy because of the smoke from each shot? I don't really think alox/beeswax smokes that much. :kidding:

Joe

[Blacktail 8541]

Never know when you might need to conceal your shooting position.

[StarMetal]

Well reckon I'll start turning out flash suppressors on my lathe for yall then.

Joe