Lever Gun Wildcat from 416 Rigby?

[insanelupus]

I'm not sure if this is the right forum to post in, but it seemed to fit a special project section better than anything else.

I was reading my reloading manuals, mostly out of boredom the other night. I got to looking at a drawing of the 416 Rigby case and started day dreaming. Not sure it could be done, but...

Would it be possible to shorten the 416 Rigby case, neck it down to .429" diameter, place a sharp shoulder angle on it (ala the current short mag shoulders which are so in vogue) with a neck long enough to take 300 grain bullets, and then chamber it in a Marlin 336/1895 action?

The rim on the Rigby case is smack dab in between the .444 and .45-70 and the Marlin extractor is fairly forgiving I think. The case body is larger than a .45-70 and I'm envisioning a .44 caliber wildcat launching 300 grain bullets about 2200-2300 fps and essentially giving similar ballistics to the old .405 WCF, but with .44 caliber bullets.

I suspect there are programs out there to figure out hair brained wildcat ideas like this, but then again, I can't possibly be the only one who has considered such a wildcat conversion.

Anyone ever heard of such a thing being done and/or know of an online program or somewhere that a person can plug in the numbers and find out what the pressures for such a thing would be, or if it is even possible given a max pressure level of about 42,000 - 43,000 PSI.

[JesterGrin_1]

Why when there is the 444 Marlin?

Hodgdon Powder Company
Cartridge Load Recipe Report - 3/15/2009
data.hodgdon.com 444 Marlin
Load Type: Rifle Powder: H4198
BW: 300

Cartridge Information
Case: Remington Barrel Length: 24"
Twist: 1:38" Trim Length: 2.215"
Primer: REMINGTON 9 1/2

444 Marlin
Cartridge Load Data Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
300 GR. SFT HP H4198 .430" 2.620" 38.5 1917 36,200 CUP 42.5 2082 42,500 CUP

NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS

[insanelupus]

I was aiming for another 200-300 fps than the Marlin 444 produces.

[Phil]

The first thing to look at is how much steel is going to be left in the thread area after you cut the chamber. I don't know what the Marlin breech thread diameter is.

Cheers,

Phil

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I would also want to take into consideration BOLT THRUST. If it is not safe to push a 300 grain out of 45-70 or 444 at 2200fps... is it safe to do so from any cartrige ?
Mike in Peru

[bobk]

The problem would be bolt thrust, I suspect. It isn't the size of the rim that does it, it's the diameter of the interior case dimension at the base. Or to be more accurate, the interior base area X the pressure. I think the locking bolt will set back in the receiver, and perhaps become a new accessory on your cheekbone. There's a reason why some gunsmiths refuse to chamber for any of these short fat catridges.

Bob K

[insanelupus]

Bolt thrust and the thread area were also considertaions I had wondered about.

[badgeredd]

insanelupus,

I'm not sure of this as I don't have the program. BUT I was thinking that the Quickload program can be used to figure out the pressures of a wildcat cartridge.

IMO, I doubt that you can get the velocity that you are after with the boolit you mentioned, mainly based on the operating pressure of the 444 and the 45-70 in a Marlin. BUT...you may be able to add another 100 fps to the 444 speeds by using a slower powder in a larger case. I too would be curious about the remaining steel in the thread area of the barrel. Also I can see a potential problem with feeding in a lever action. Considering the multitude of comments I've seen on the 444 and the slow twist that Marlin uses, if you do decide to go ahead and try it, I'd seriously consider a faster twist rate for the heavy boolits.

Just my thoughts.....

Edd

[insanelupus]

I'm not going to try it, as there are just way too many unknowns. But it was a curiosity I've had for some time.

[Nobade]

A 348 Win necked up to .416 and improved would work in a Winchester 1886, ala 50 Alaskan. No other lever action is big enough for that, especially a Marlin.

[Ballard]

.416 Barnes? That would do it.

[frank505]

Having shot a 416/348 IMP in a Browning 71 for awhile and fooled with trying to convert a Marlin to another high pressure cartridge, I would never mess with the marlins. They will deform the locking lugs when you get close to 45000 psi. The 416/348 is a wonderful cartridge, almost as good as my 450 AK on a Winchester 71. The 416 seems to get hauled around the hills a little more than the 450 as it is two pounds lighter. Killing power is close to the same, 416 is a 350 RCBS at 2100 and the 450 is a 405 at 2100.

[Hang Fire]

Model 71 was the only Winchester lever rifle chambered for the 348, things could get a little intense for a 348 or wildcat derivative of the cartridge in an original older 86.