44-40 loads with SR 4759

[Don S.]

Hi fellas,
I have a Uberti 1873 Winchester in 44-40 caliber. I am reloading for it and I have found only one recipe for SR 4759 in this caliber in the book, Cartridges of the World. That book lists 14 grs. of SR 4759 as a load.
My question is, how much higher can I go without hurting the link in this rifle or blowing cases? The 14 grs. charge with the Oregon Trail Lazer Cast bullets seems a bit puny and is not real accurate.
Anybody else shooting this powder in a 44 WCF?
Thanks for your help,
Don

[August]

This was just discussed:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=47594

[atr]

My Lyman 1958 Handbook of cast bullets is listing 16 grains of 4759 in 44-40 with a 206 gr. Lyman #42798 boolit......this was being shot in a model 92 Winchester

the attached table is from the same handbook....NOTE: the * indicates maximum load

I hope this help
atr

[MtGun44]

Watch out for Win 92 loads in Win 73 - not even close in strength.

Bill

[w30wcf]

Don,
This is not a recommendation, but I will share what has worked in my original '73 Winchester .44 W.C.F. made in 1882.

With a 200 gr. cast bullet the early smokeless .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridges were cataloged at from 1,250 f.p.s. - 1,301 f.p.s.

17 grs. of my lot of 4759 chronographs between those two velocities and thus is the equivalent to the early smokeless loadings for use in both '73 and '92 Winchester rifles. Now, because different lots of powder can have slightly different burning rates, I would strongly suggest the use of a chronograph to make sure that original velocities are not being exceeded.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/44-40m7392.jpg

w30wcf

[Don S.]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.
August, I saw that thread and that is why I started this one. Although the cases are similar they are two different cartridges.
I appreciate the additional recipes for the SR 4759 in the 44-40. I am interested in these early smokeless powders in the early cases.
I tried the 15 grs. load in the revolver and the rifle and it didn't show any signs of excessive pressure on the case or the primer. My big concern is possible damage to the guns and there by damage to myself in the process. I intend to use caution with these smokeless powders. The additional information you fellas have shared today has been helpful.
Many thanks,
Don

[Don S.]

Can we assume that 38-40 recipes can be used for 44-40 loads? I am a newbie to reloading and I want to get this right.
Thanks fellas,
Don

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have been launching from my 92 Winny 44-40 for many years.. All I have here is Unique which I salvaged from some 12 guage shotshells. I do know Unique makes one FINE powder for 44-40. I also shoot it in my 38-40´s up in Illinois and have no need to play with other powders.
In my 1873(1887 vintage) 7 grains with a 200 grain. My Marlin handles 8-9 just fine and heavier boolits when desired.
Still hunting a 1892 38-40 ---

[KirkD]

In my own experience, SR4759 seems to have a very similar pressure curve to FFg for the same bullet and the same velocity. For this reason, a load using SR4759 that gives original black powder velocities for the same bullet, should give about the same peak pressure as FFg. As w30wcf strongly recommends, however, a chronograph should be used to ensure that original velocities are not exceeded with this powder. SR4759 has a Dupont Index of 210 and a Relative Quickness of 30.

[atr]

I really think this tread was about loading for the 44-40,,,,,,lets not thrown in another caliber as it only confuses the issue OK ??......

[Don S.]

I really think this tread was about loading for the 44-40,,,,,,lets not thrown in another caliber as it only confuses the issue OK ??......

atr,
I tend to agree with you but the post by August got me to thinking. Since the 38-40 thread has been introduced into this thread...maybe we need to clear it up. When discussing 38-40 reloads are we discussing 44-40 reloads as well? Can one use 38-40 information to reload 44-40 cartridges?
Thank you all for your patience with me, being the new guy on the block........
Don

[August]

Same cartridge. Same volume.

[Rick459]

Don S
keep in mind that the 1873 winchester is a toggle link action and is no where as strong as the 1892. the Lyman #46 reloading manual says not to exceed 13,700 CUP in the toggle actions as compared to 22,000 CUP in the 1892. the only powders that they list for the 1873 are Red Dot/Green Dot/and Unique. in my 1866 i use 8.0 grns. of Unique with the Lyman #427098 bullet for about 1210 fps. this load is very accurate in my winchester. HTH

Rick

[KirkD]

Same cartridge. Same volume.
I would hesitate before using 38-40 and 44-40 data interchangeably. It is true that they have almost the same case capacity and the bullet diameter is very close as well (.401 for the 38-40 and .429 for the 44-40). The main difference, however, is that the average bullet weight for the 44-40 is 200 grains and it is 180 grains for the 38-40. So the 44-40 bullet is 11% heavier, which for the same 38-40 load will raise pressures accordingly. In the case of these two cartridges, and given the low pressures people tend to use, it will not likely make a difference unless a person is playing around with near max loads. But there is always the fellow who likes to load has cartridge right up to the max and if we say that he can use 38-40 data in his 44-40 loads, that extra 11% bullet weight may cause him problems.

Now with regard to using pistol powders such as Unique in the model '73 or any other original antique firearm .... there is a way to get an idea of how different powders compare when it comes to the pressure spike, or peak pressure, portion of their burning curve. Fast powders have a much more pronounced spike than slow powders. There is a way to compare powders in their burn rate by looking at their Dupont Index (DPI) and their Relative Quickness (RQ). As near as I've been able to determine, FFFg has a DPI and RQ very close to Blue Dot and FFg has a DPI and RQ very close to IMR SR4759 or 2400. With that in mind, let us compare Red Dot, Unique, Blue Dot and SR4759 ....

Red Dot: DPI = 659, RQ = 94.1
Unique: DPI = 431, RQ = 61.6
Blue Dot: DPI = 265, RQ = 37.8
SR4759: DPI = 210, RQ = 30
2400: DPI = 189, RQ = 27

What this all means is that for the same bullet and the same velocity, approximately the same amount of gas will be produced by the combusting powder. However, for the powders with the higher DPI and RQ, that volume of gas will be produced a lot faster, producing a much higher pressure spike. I don't know how different companies come up with their pressure values, but it makes a big difference if they are taking an average pressure over a short time interval, or stating the pressure at the tip of the spike. I've seen a lot of results that suggest that some of those pressure values stated in reloading tables are not the tip of the spike, but perhaps an average over a very short interval of time.

The bottom line is that it may very well not make a large difference for the model '73 44-40 if a person uses Unique or 2400 for the same velocity, provided those velocities are kept fairly tame. But if a person wants to jack up the velocity, and I know plenty of fellows who do that with Unique, they need to know what is going on with the pressure spike. I do not think this is a matter of blowing up ones rifle. Rather, I'm concerned about the long term, cumulative effect of using fast pistol powders with sharp pressure spikes in their burning curves.

I was corresponding with David Chicoine, a well known gunsmith in the US, author of several gunsmithing books for antique guns, and a specialist with antique six guns. He told me that he has seen "hundreds' of antique sixguns that have had their frames badly stretched by using supposedly 'light' loads of smokeless powder. As you can see above, not all smokeless powder is created equal. He did not know exactly what type of smokeless powder was being used. However, I do know a lot of fellows who use smokeless powder in antique sixguns and almost all of them use Unique and swear by it. I infer from this that the smokeless powder most likely to have been used in the "hundreds' of antique six guns that Mr. Chicoine has worked on or examined is most likely to be Unique. I typically use powders like 2400 or 5744 in my antique sixguns and I have found that I am the extreme rare exception. I much prefer a lower, longer pressure curve. I have measured some of my antiques over a period of time (cylinder gap and end shake) to see if any stretching is happening and have been able to detect none, so I'm fairly confident that powders like 2400, 5744, 4227 and SR4759 will not cause long term problems with the '73, if original ballistics are kept to. I think w30wcf's suggestion for the 44-40 is a good one.

All this to say that although I know that many published loads recommend Unique (although they almost always state that it is for modern firearms in good condition), I tend to prefer to use a medium speed powder in old firearms. My powders of choice are SR4759, 2400, 5744 and 4227. These tend to give near capacity loads in cartridges like the 44-40 and have less than half the DPI and RQ of the faster pistol powders. Maybe I'm just overly cautious.

[atr]

THANK YOU KIRKD !!!! my point exactly

here is a comparison chart from same manual

[35remington]

"Quickness" of powder burn rates varies depending upon who is doing the rating and which cartridges they're used in, but I would rank 4759 as a tick slower than 2400 given the actual performance in the cartridges I've tried it in. It's a bit faster than 4227.

In addition, those burn rate charts I have access to rank 2400 as faster than 4759, which my real world experience in various cartridges bears out.

YMMV.

[KirkD]

The DPI and the RQ are results obtained in a lab where the similar results are obtained each time (within the normal variation of individual batches of powder). However, those burn rates are not measured inside cartridges, so things will be a bit different once that powder is poured into a case. Variables will be primer type, bullet weight, case volume, etc.

I'm only beginning to experiment with SR4759 and have not yet tried it in my 44-40. In my 38-55, 4579 was quite a bit faster than IMR 4227, with 19 grains of each, under the same bullet, giving me 1,581 fps with 4759 and only 1,324 with IMR 4227. I've started trying it out in my 38-40 and it does give slower velocities than 2400, but seems to bump the soft cast lead bullet up better than 2400, giving better accuracy than 2400. I'm not sure what it going on here and have loaded up some more cartridges in both 4759 and 2400 to put across my chronograph sometime next week.

Even though the lab results for the DPI and RQ may differ a bit from real life, they still illustrate a very useful comparison between fast pistol powders like Red Dot or Unique and the medium powders such as 4759, 2400, 4227 and 5744.

[Don S.]

This has given me quite a bit to digest. Thanks for putting me in school.
KirkD, I don't have access to a chronograph so if you get around to playing with SR 4759 in your 44-40 with the 200 gr. cast boolits, I would be very interested in your findings.
Don

[Jon K]

Don s,

Is there any reason you are stuck on 4759? Or is it that you're looking for higher speeds?

I got the most speed in my Uberti '73 using Swiss 3F/Saeco 446/.060 veggie wads.

For smokeless I like the 8 gr/Unique load. The 44-40 case is not the strongest and I prefer to keep the pressure low. I tried to pump the load up using 2400, 4227, Unique. I was not happy with results I got with smokeless.

I did have a little difficulty finding a boolit to fit my Uberti because the groove diameter (breech end) was .431, pressure was not a problem for the gun, but case life is a problem. I also found that when the cases got weak the accuracy was greatly effected.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is fit the boolit to the gun, and try all combinations..........the gun will tell you what it likes.

Good Luck & Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

[KirkD]

Jon brings up a good point about case life. If you see your cases lasting 3 reloads, (ring at web of case) you know your pressure is too high. Snooky had some published loads using 2400 that put a 210 grain cast bullet out the barrel at 1,832 fps. However, his cases failed after 3 loads.

Don, I've done a lot of reloading for the 44-40 using 2400. As soon as I get done working up a load for my 38-40 using 4759, I plan to do the same for my 44-40. I don't go for max loads. I'm happy with staying just below Winchester's original High Velocity load for the model 92, which is 1,565 fps. 16 grains of 2400 under a 200 grain cast bullet gave 1,318 fps, and my most accurate load.

[atr]

here are a couple more old loadings from 1953 Ideal handbook

[Don S.]

Thanks atr,
I have tried the 15 gr. load just a couple of shots and intend to try some more now that I feel more confident with all this new (old) information. I think I will stop at 15.5 grs. though in my '73.
You guys have me itching for a '92 Winchester now.
Thanks again fellas,
Don

[w30wcf]

Historically speaking, the .44 W.C.F. /.44-40 was birthed as a rifle cartridge and thus it was factory loaded with slower burning smokeless powders in 13 to 17 gr. charges (depending on the type of powder) from way back in 1895 until the late 1970's. After that the trend for the factories was to load it as a pistol cartridge with faster burning smokeless powders.

I'm with Kirk. I load it as a rifle cartridge with slower burning smokeless just as it inventor did beginning in 1895. Nothing wrong with using faster burning smokeless, but if one's goal in a '73 Winchester is to replicate the velocity of the original .44 W.C.F. / .44-40 cartridge (1,250-1,300 f.p.s.) one can't do it at safe pressures with faster burning powders.

One safety advantage with the slower burning powders is that an accidental double charge can overflow the case. Not so with most of the faster powders.

atr,
Thank you for the pics. A research of my old Ideal, Lyman catalogs indicates that they showed those specs until the 1960's but then discontinued that data.
The velocity shown with 4759 is unusually high as compared to what I have found. Perhaps it was much faster burning back then. Also, the loads shown for 2400 and 4227 are definitely much too high.

The .44-40 data I have taken with some vintage 1970's made 4759 and some of recent manufacture is almost identical. 17.0 grs. under a 200 gr. cast bullet from a Magma mold (not the 427098 which seats deeper in the case and thus would increase pressures) clocks 1,280 f.p.s. However, faster lots could be encountered, therefore the importance of a chronograph.

Regarding the difference between 4227 and 4759, I have not seen the variation that Kirk has. Again different lots can = different results. I have been using H4227and have found that the same 17 gr. charge of H4227 is within 10 f.p.s. of the same charge of 4759. I do position the powder to the back of the case prior to firing though for the best consistancy.

In Lyman's 47th reloading manual, the lots of IMR4227 and IMR4759 they used were very close regarding velocity and pressure:
.45-70 / 420 gr. cast bullet
34.0/4227/1684/37,700
35.0/4759/1682/36,400

Have fun,
w30wcf

[Don S.]

I guess I could sneak up on the 17 grs. load. of SR 4759 and load 10 of each in .5 gr. increments and keep an eye on the primers and the groups. What do y'all think about that idea?
Don S.

[w30wcf]

Don S.,
Unfortunately, you will not be able to tell by looking at the primers if you are exceeding safe pressures in a '73. Unless someone has a trace pressure system, the 2nd best way is a chronograph.

If you would want to send me 5 cartridges, I'll be happy to run them across my chronograph.

w30wcf

[Rick459]

here's my Navy Arms 1866 Yellowboy purchased in 1982 .44/40 cal.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture028.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture029-1.jpg
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o301/rick4570/Picture030.jpg

[lathesmith]

Maybe this is a stupid question, and if so, please pardon my ignorance. Why not use Pyrodex, Triple 7, or another BP substitute? These are somewhat cleaner than BP,and can be made to shoot very well. I can shoot Pyrodex in my 45 Colt Vaquero for extended periods, and all I have to do is wipe down the exterior every once in a while. If nothing else, maybe a guy could just reserve these loads to use every now and then. I gotta admit, I LOVE that big cloud of smoke! If nothing else, it gives you another reason to head to the range and try something different, and also gives you something to compare your smokeless loads to.
lathesmith

PS I really liked the post comparing powder pressure curves and spikes, there's some really good points made there.

[405]

A while back on one of these type threads, I pointed out the obvious folly of mixing revolver loads with carbine loads. At the time I was worried about exactly the same pitfalls being discussed here. I believe it had to do with CAS type loads. Before long some "expert" with a tad too much ego and testosterone joined in and started quoting loads and velocities in the 38-40s and 44-40s somewhere around 1600-1800 fps with normal bullet weights. Just lovely! I read the history about the factories trying that back in the day for the Win 92- the boxes so loaded were so labeled. Then similar to today, some users' reading ability were not much beyond sand box and some guns were kaboomed. I was strongly put down by a couple of the posters involved... so I bowed out of any more input into that thread. I envisioned a novice grabbing one of those loads/velocities from the thread, putting it in an old Colt SAA or even a little stronger old Win 73 and KABLOOOEY! Oh Well.

Excellent thread- kudos!

[Savvy Jack]

Looking in Lyman's book they list 110 powders in relation to burn rate. Listed in order from fastest to slowest.

#23 Alliant Unique
#41 Alliant 2400
#48 IMR SR-4759
#50 IMR-4227
#51 Hodgdon H-4227
#77 Vihta Vuori N540
#110 Accurate 8700

Nice read guys, thanks!!

[Savvy Jack]

I'd like to hear more!

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Dated Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets lists (specifically) 13.7 grains as giving 1200-1300 fps and intended for use in 1873 Winchester rifles. Clearly warns not to exceed this loading. The bullet used in this loading is the old Lyman design #42798. As an owner of an 1873 Winchester (that is in good condition--- and I intend to keep it that way) I second the advice regarding the internal links not being particularly strong. IMR 4227 is very close in burning rate to 4759 and the same charge would be appropriate and give the same range of MV. LLS

[Jon K]

Well...............since lathesmith brought it up........why not shoot something else? Worried about pressure & case life?

If I want more speed than 8 gr of Unique.........I am now using BP.
Saeco #420/36 gr Swiss 3F/.030 veg wad/Fed 150 .........shoots very accurate@200m and burns clean. This is in Uberti 73 44-40 24".
Gotta love that cloud of smoke!

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon