Feeding and the BD45

[West Creek]

Well, I'm still having trouble gettign the BD 45 to feed correctly in my 1911 A1.

A freaind of mine has a mil spec and he seats them deep and his gun shoots very well with them but mine seams to want to shoot a pattern instead of a group. I can get it to shoot 200 gr SWC well enough but these BD's are giving me fits. I'll will have to admit knowing little about them as well.

What I have tried so far is to change the lips on a magazine to release sooner. It helped some but not enough. Also tried seating deeper but to no effect there. The nose of the bullet wants to hit the bottom of the barrel and it gets deformed.

It seems to that I get some leading at the throat caused by too small of a throat. The alloy I am using is striaght wheel weights. Would a harder alloy help any?

I tried a local gunsmith but their attitude is that those things only feed hardball. I showed him what it was doing and they had no idea what to do. Is there someboady who can make them work?

Thanks

[StarMetal]

Try your friends magazine in you gun. If it works perfectly then you have strictly a magazine problem. Generally short style bullets should release from the magazine lips earlier then long style bullets. In other words a 185 wadcutter should release sooner then a 230 roundnose. A 1911 wasn't designed for the bullet to jump straight into the breech, it was designed that the bullet nose hits the feed ramp in the frame and that bounces the nose up into the direction of the breech opening. The bottom barrel lip of the chamber should not be overhanging the feed ramp in the frame, nor be even with it as though it's one continous ramp, it should be alittle behind the frame feed ramp. Ideally about 1/32 inch behind it. Unless you know what you are doing I wouldn't mess with the feed ramp or barrel porting. Try your friends magazine first. Also try your mag in his gun.

Moe

[AnthonyB]

yeah, what Starmetal said. After trying that, order one of the BD45CM six cavity moulds and your troubles SHOULD go away. Tony

[West Creek]

Hey Guys

I did a little function studying of my 1911 this week-end. This is what I came up with:

The feed ramp in the frame is flush with the feed ramp in the barrel when the barrel is rotated all the way back on the frame. Typically the slide spring pushes up on the barrell a little and during most cycling it does not sit tight to the frame but elevated a little allowing for a gap between the frame and the barrel throat. This is where the BD45 hits and jams up. When cycling the bullets with out the slide spring it will most always hit at this location and stop the cycle. If I use a little more effort it will feed but you can feel a little hit when the bullet hits the barrel.

I am not familiar with the 1911 and what should be or not so it leaves me with a couple of other questions.

There is a little room for the barrel to move vertically between the slide and the frame - is this normal?

The rifling in my barrel appears to have rounded edges. In other words it does not have sharp vertical edges to the rifling (I bought the gun used) and my concern would be that it is having a harder time grabbing the softer wheel weight bullets VS the hard bullets from lazercast that I have had good luck with. Is this normal for the Springfield barrel or has it seen alot of use and is worn?

My understanding is that the 1/32 of a gap would help the bullet jump this little gap since the barrel is not touching the frame. Would it be feasible to have the frame ramp on this gun welded up and recut for a proper relationship to the barrel??

Hey Tony - I think I am going to have a check sent to you for the BD45CM - probably get it out to you today but until I get that mold this gun will be out of commission until my new mold arrives unless I buy some more lasercast bullets but they tend to lead a little just past the throat and I have developed an affliction to buying bullets since I started casting my own. I did notice that once a little round edge was put on the bullet - damage from it hitting the bottom lip of the barrel it would feed nicely - it is just that sharp corner that is causing the problem and I would suspect the new bullet design will solve that problem.

[StarMetal]

The way to check for proper barrel to frame alignment is to disassemble the gun. Then just take the barrel and push it back onto the frame in what would be the rearmost position. Ideally the barrel should just be forward that 1/32 of an inch that I mentioned in the other post. If it's flush or worse, hanging over the feed ramp, it's not right. Make sure you have the slide stop installed as though the gun was assembled. The barrel in the rearmost position should rest entirely on the frame bed. If the barrel links down into the frame position without lug contact, and about 1/32 of an inch of the frame's barrel bed remains between the barrel and where the frame ramp begins, the barrel, link, and frame are properly mated.

But, if the link-down is stopped incomplete, or less the the 1/32 of an inch of the frame's barrel bed is exposed, mating work is required. In your case you have to determine if the radius where the barrel lug is joined to the barrel is contacting the frame first or the lug itself is contacting the frame first. This kind of work is not for someone that has no knowledge of it and it would be hard to guide you through it.

Joe

[waksupi]

That still sounds like you can use some more magazine tuning.

[StarMetal]

The one thing you didn't try, or at least didn't tell us if you did, is what Tony and I wanted you to do, swap magazines with your friends good feeding 1911.

Ric

His mags could still use some tuning, but definately his barrel to frame fit is incorrect.

Joe

[West Creek]

Nope Starmetal - havent tried my buddies mags yet. He's in southern IL and I'm up by Chicago. I will be visiting him this week-end though and will try his loads and magazine to see what happens. How well his works I dont know but it does shoot straight unlike mine. His is a new Rockford Armory mil spec.

Hey Starmetal - yep - when I set the barrel with link pin installed without the slide it will set down on the frame bed and the barrel ramp and feed ramp are flush. The link pin being free the whole time - tells me the link is not binding but the barrel and lug are doing all the work there.

While tinkering with it to see how the lug is fit using a little poor mans marking ink. The lug contacts mostly at the top near the barrel but not very consistanty mostly on one side vs the other. The frame is flush in that area and I do not get the black widow mark. If the barrel is tipped down just a hare the barrel feed ramp will move up off of the frame bed figuring it is pivoting off of the end of the barrel lug fingers and I expect this is what is happening during cycling as it will set down on the bed at the beginning of the cycle but half way through it will raise up and leave a gap between the barrel ramp and the feed ramp and this is where the BD45 will catch.

It seems to me that this gun should have some work done to it - how expensive??? I dont know. I would probably much rather rotate it but my MAD funds are too low for my taste and buying another Gangster gun as my wife would put it is out of the question. I gues such is the life of having an anti-wife. Fortunatley she cant tell one from the other and I have been known to upgrade my stock much like I did with one of my SAA - An AWA turned into a USFA one day. I have been looking through the brownells flyer and there are a couple drop in barrel kits available but they would also need some fine tuning and they would not fix the ramp problem. Is welding the frame ramp and recutting it a proper solution?

Waksupi - Well the only magazine tuning I have tried is to move the lips back about .050. It seamed to have helped a little but does no help with the BD45 catching between the barrel ramp and the feed ramp. The magazines I am using are the Chip McCormick ones typically found on sale at Midway. Any eduation you can help with would be most welcome as the only tuning I know of is to do what I have already done.

[StarMetal]

No No No No, you never never do anything to the feed ramp except maybe polish it. That barrel can be tuned easily...if you know how. It envolves moving the bottom of the lip of the barrel (breech end of course) back away from the where the feed ramp in the frame begins, to the tune of that 1/32 of an inch (about .030) and they recontouring the that portion of the barrel you just moved back......and if that is done might as well port the barrel to feed all types of bullets. On thing is you must never move the lip part of the barrle that the case is laying on because if you move it ahead (towards the muzzle) too much you stand a change of the webs blowing out on the case because some of the web is unsupported to start with. Don't worry so much about where the barrel is during cycling as it's not meant to be solid or tight. If it's back that 1/32 of an inch from the feed ramp the bullet bounces off the feed ramp and shouldn't touch that barrel lip at the bottom where yours are catching. Too bad the frame is an FFL shipping item or I'd have you ship barrel and frame and I'd do it for you.

Joe

[West Creek]

Ok Starmetal - I wont be talking to the guys at the gunshop about welding and recutting. Never thought much about setting back the barrel. I do understand you are saying move the bottom of the barrel ramp and not the top due to case support. That is something I would try myself. I'm sure a little emery paper on a dowel rod of proper size would perform the reshaping you mentioned or similiar tool. The worst I could do is cause me to get another barrel. Any thoughts on the rifling being rounded on the edges??? That has been one of my wundering concerns with this gun. I've never seen round edges - all I've ever seen is sharp cornered rifling.

[harley45]

Any way you can post photos of the parts in question?
perhaps we can help more then or give you an idea of what it will cost to fix it? I'd like to see the back of that bar. The springfield 1911 I had would not feed much of anything till I throated the Bar.

[StarMetal]

Why would the rifling be rounded on the edges? The proper way to shape the barrel and throat it is with a Dremel.

Joe

[waksupi]

Waksupi - Well the only magazine tuning I have tried is to move the lips back about .050. It seamed to have helped a little but does no help with the BD45 catching between the barrel ramp and the feed ramp. The magazines I am using are the Chip McCormick ones typically found on sale at Midway.

I am of the firm opinion that a person should pick one nose style for a 1911, and tune the magazines to function with that bullet, if it to be carried for social purposes. You may just need to get a bit more extreme with your release point, and feed angle. Just tweak one of your magazines, until you get the cartridge to release early, and see what happens. Once you get your main magazines tuned, then you can use a separate one to experiment with other nose designs. It sounds like you have an absolute stock pistol. So, as in a previous thread, you have a basic kit to build from. If you aren't familiar with the work yourself, hire it done. There is probably somewhere close to you. If you know anyone on your local PD, ask them.

The magazine is just a symptom. Joe is right on the money with the work that needs done to the pistol itself. No use spending money on new parts, most likely. Although the rounded rifleing puzzles me.

[StarMetal]

West Creek

I have a few pics here for you. The first one shows the proper gap between the barrel and the feedramp.

The second to show how the lug fits and where it might be making contact at that radius I told you of.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Ooops forgot the photos.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/274416.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/274418.jpg

[West Creek]

Hey Guys

This week-end I'll try my buddies magazine and I'll look his gun over to see how well it feeds. Might even try working on the bottom of the barrel feed ramp to get that 1/32 gap in there.

Yep - the rounded over rifling kinda puzzles me too. That's why I asked about it. My only guess is the previous owner shot the bejesus outta it or worked the inside over with emery paper or something - I dont know. Either way it does not have any sharp corners to the rifling at all top or bottom.

Hey Starmetal

When I goto start the reshaping of the bottom of the barrel ramp do I shorten the whole face of the barrel square or do I just work the bottom of the barrel ramp a little leaving it a tad recessed from the rest of the barrel breach face?

Waksupi - I'll try gitten a little more aggressive with the magazines after I adjust the barrel ramp.

[StarMetal]

West

Let me scan a picture of how to do the bottom of the barrel lip before you start on it.

Joe

[West Creek]

Ok Star - Dont figger on gitten toit until next week anyways

[Willbird]

Also on your straight WW boolits ?? are you water dropping them from the mold ?? running hot and doing so willmake them much harder.

fire several boolits into a medium where you can recover them, measure the land width on the boolit with calipers.....pure lead boolits in 1911 with 4.0 bullseye powder will typically exibit 25% larger land marks than Linotype boolits, and in my experience with a pistol that will group 1"-1.5" 5 shots at 50 yards from ransom rest (Clark bbl and pistol fulley fit to match specs) the pure lead boolits shot 2"-3" where the lino boolits shot 1"-1.5"

I would expect this condition to worsen with hotter loads than 4.0 bullseye......also I have fired boughten cast boolits in this pistol that shot 6" or worse groups at 50 yards and showed lots of leading with 5.0 bullseye, these same boolits also leaded several other 45 acp pistols and revolvers, we have decided it is either the hard blue crayon type lube or the alloy they are cast in has lots of tin.....those boolits lead at pretty much any velocity, but at 4.0 bullseye you can get the gun to work for 500 rounds and shoot 2-3 inches at 25 yards, still poor performance.

I would reccomend you get in touch with a GOOD gunsmith that understands the 1911 pistol and tunes them for people that shoot todays ammunition.

If your bbl is fidged up there are drop in bbls you can buy that would be better than it is and not require gunsmith fit....and you wouldprobably get a few $$ out of the old one on Egay.

Bill

Bill

[West Creek]

Hey Bill

Ya gotta good point there - I've got a couple of them rounds loaded up still and think I'll try them into some insulation today and see what happens. I have seen the difference in my 45 colt loads shooting a WW LBT WFN in a colt that is taylor throated - it slips a little in the rifling before it grabs but it still shoots straight. This test will probably tell me if my rifling is working at all as I suspect due to the rounded corners it is not with the softer metal. This gun will shoot 2" groups from a sandbag at 25 yards with 200 gr SWC from Lazercast over 5gr of bullseye. This being about as good as this gun will shoot I suspect, the bushing leaves a little to be desired but for a knock around gun and defensive purpose is plenty good enough.

I'll try to get photos of the bullets this week-end as well as the gun to post

[StarMetal]

West

Two inch groups at 25 yds from a bone stock 1911 is damn good, damn good.

By the way my tuned 1911's shoot lino, jacketed, ww, even pure lead about the same. I even have shot a hollow base pure lead bullet meant for the blackpowder 1858 Remington new army pistol in it with good results. The one by the way has a Clark match barrel in it.

Joe

[West Creek]

Yea Starmetal - I was tickled when I stumbled onto that load but the casting bug has got me and I have tired of the leading although it doesnt deteriorate accuracy too much. That 2" would be on the good side of its groups, I havent really tested it in a couple years. Last week I checked that load to make sure the gun was still working and shot it from a bench at say 20 yards and 7 rounds went into right at 2" but it was the last 7 bullets I had of those hard bullets. The BD45 loads went into a shot pattern of about 6". I'm pretty sure that range is less than 25 yard but not by much so I'll call it 20. Been a good spell since I measured that range.

I suppose some testing with harder bullets might prove to be a good solution but the prospect of being able to just cast'em and load'em with wheel weights sure is appealing.

BTW - the gun isnt box stock - the feller who had it before me tinkered with it I'm sure. It has one of those kits in it where the link has a tit onnit the guide rod pushes on, A trigger and a spring type bushing as well as novak sights and a drop in grip safety extension so there is no telling what all was tinkered with. But I recon the barrel, frame and side are stock.

[StarMetal]

West

That link with the hook on it, along with the guide rod that pushes on it, is called "the group gripper". What it does is pushes the barrel locking lugs more fully up into the slide recess for them. Supposely to a more consistant barrel setting. The spring bushing you speak of, I assume you're talking about the barrel bushing, I'm afraid are junk. One thing is they break in due time. The best is a fitted solid bushing. Colt come up with those spring bushing, which by the way are called collet bushings, to speed up manufacturing in that it eliminates fitting a solid bushing . They can shoot good sometimes.

Do you know what brand the barrel is that is currently in your pistol?

Joe

[West Creek]

Hey Star

Yep that barrel bushing doesnt work the best - There is a little looseness there at full battery.

The barrel is probably a Springfield barrel - it is stamped "SA 45 AUTO" on top leading me to beleive it is a Springfield barrel as is the frame and slide. My brother had a Mil Spec Springfield and it was stamped "Springfield 45 Auto" on top and not abreiviated like mine.

Would the link have any effect on the barrel set back from the feed ramp??

I have seen some sort of kit before with several links in it to adjust something or other - probably at Brownels. Is there a test of some sort to check the link for correct length or lock up?

[StarMetal]

West

Let me answer you question about the link having anything to do with the barrel being back too far. Basically no, but too short of a link wouldn't let the barrel bed all the way. It's the barrel lug that controls where the barrel bed assuming the frame is correct. Now let me explain about didn't lenght links, Their purpose is, when you're building or fine tuning a 1911, too make sure the barrel is locked fully into the locking recesses in the slide. It works in conjunction with the barrel lug and slide stop pin to position the fully up into those recesses. If your rack your slide (empty gun of course) then push down on the exposed portion of the barrel in the ejection port of the slide and it moves down, then those three things are out of adjustment. A temporary and incorrect fix is a longer link. The correct fix is welding up the lug and fitting it. Personally this isn't an easy thing to do if you don't know how. When you get a 1911 barrel to fully lock in, you'll find you will have to adjust your sight as the rear of the barrel is up higher, making the muzzle of the barrel point down more. Also you may find by fitting the barrel thus raising the rear of it, that you might have to raise your firing pin with a bushing to do this as it may be hit too far off center for reliable ignition. I've done this all my 1911's. I've tighten the slide to frame fit, have hand fitted barrels, hand fitted barrel bushings, trigger work, the works and not to brag I feel my 1911's will shoot along if not out shoot the big boys like Brown, Clark, Kimber, etc.....and for hundreds of dollars cheaper being I did the work myself. I educated myself to do this...by getting the books, by hanging around a smith that built 1911's, and by talking to some of the pros like Jimmy Clark. Jimmy is are really nice guy and will spend some time with you.

Joe

[West Creek]

Hey Joe

Sounds to me like the proper relationship between the link and the barrel is a 90 deg perpedicular relationship with the barrel lugs limiting the forward movement of the barrel and the Slide limiting the rearward movement of the barrel.

Looking at the Kart replacement barrel kit in brownells they have stated the link is already fit to the lugs (the perpendicular relationship) and basically all that needs to be fit is the barrel hood (trimmed to length & width for proper fit)

Anyways - Getting into and studying the proper workings of a gun is what I have spent many hours doing but mostly for my SAA. Learned alot and spent alot learning. Ended up buying higher quality firearm to make myself happy as I dont have the time nore place to tinker much. The kitchen table or the bench in my damp unheated detached garage doesnt lend itself well to such projects. Besides I have more money than time. I admire your tennacity in learning to make these guns shoot well. It is a road I have traveled with my SAA but alas I am taking on that task with casting and loading my own ammunition which is a time consuming task in itself. Which by the way has opened the door to getting this 1911 working properly. It never seams to end and I will probably be on my death bed telling my wife to have my son try such and such on a particular firearm - hehehehehe.

Well I am going to try adjusting the barrel ramp on this gun and then see if that helps as well as adjusting the magazines. But if the bullets fail the rifling test as I suspect it will I will most likely end up getting a new barrel kit with the link and bushing. I suspect the previous owner of this gun used a drill and something wound around a bit to clean fowling out to round off the rifling. Are there any Brands, methods etc you would recommend etc advice etc. you can add to that.

BTW - you havent posted the photo of the correct way to adjust the barrel ramp. I will wait to see it before proceding with that project.

Thanks
Charlie

[StarMetal]

West,

To answer the statement about the Kart barrel. I believe they are talking that the radius need in the lug to match where the hole is in link is fitted. This doesn't mean that the barrel will be seated the deepest in the locking lugs. Each gun is alittle different. All they are saying is that the slide stop pin will fit thru it and that is it.

Now I have a few pics for you. The first one is where and at what angle you take off a little bit of metal at the bottom barrel lip. Better to do alittle first because you can't put metal back easily. The second photo show what you will have when you file that part, then another photo of how to blend it in or throat it as you would say.

Good luck.
Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/img/275264.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/275266.jpg

[West Creek]

Hey Joe

What is the name of the book you are getting these photos from?

Looks like a book I need to read. I've got Muelhausens book on SAA's but its a little on the technical side for the SAA let alone one of these here self chuckers. That book you got looks like one I can understand and cuts to the meat of fitting and function and such.

Thanks for all the help. I'll take it slow and see what happens

Charlie

[StarMetal]

West

That particular book is "The Colt .45 Automatic" by Jerry Kunhausen. It's available from just about any place that sells gun related books like Midway and esp Brownells. I think it's a pretty good book out of the many that I have. Quite a few of our other posters have this book also.

Joe

[West Creek]

Well I just got the name wrong - Ive got his book on SAA and it is a different format for sure but I guess mine is called a shop manual and his 1911 book is a little different. Anyway

Thanks - I'll have it ordered before I go home tonight for sure.

Charlie