PDA

View Full Version : Contenders and cast boolits dont mix



jeff223
02-01-2006, 02:12 PM
slugged my bores and shoot boolits sized 2 thousands over and best group size at 100yds is between 7 and 8 inches.my thoughts about cast is Contenders and cast dont mix.both my 357max and 445supermag shoot jacketed very well.giving up on this cast shooting

still going to run the fat 44 group buy though.like to see happy campers you know

i have a brand new Lee 6 holer 180gr mold 357cal from the last group buy i ran i well sell.it makes those wonderful bullets that dont shoot in tenders.

(180 gascheck round flat nose boolits)never even used it.i just shot the 200 i had that a couple of guys sent me to try.i used a friends sizer to size them,good thing i didnt buy one of my own

anyone interested in the mold get with me

44man
02-01-2006, 02:52 PM
Not true! You just have not done enough work or tried different things. The only problem I had with contenders was that some bores were rough and collected copper bad. This has to be completely removed before shooting cast. They will lead fast too.
The bores have to be broken in by shooting jacketed and cleaning out all copper before each shot. Power lapping will fix them or even hand lapping helps.
I have had some that I could hit a nickel at 100 yd's with cast with a scope and sandbags.

nighthunter
02-01-2006, 05:44 PM
I agree with 44man. I have a 22 Hornet barrel that I can consistantly shoot clay pigeons with placed at 200 yards using cast bullets. My 35 Rem. barrel is not quite as accurate but will shoot cast groups of less than 2 inches at 100 yards. You just have to find what the barrel likes the best. 1 thousandth of an inch in sizing can make a big difference and 44man mentioned about getting all the copper out first. Don't give up yet or too easily. Try some different powders. Try a different OAL of your ammo. Cast will shoot in a Contender.
Nighthunter

Johnch
02-01-2006, 06:08 PM
I have a 357 Max , the throat is loooong .
I seat a RCBS 180 gr Silloit bullet so just the gas check is in the case to crimp .
I also run the bullet unsized ( about .360 ) .
Or I run a Lyman 358313 , it ends up 210 gr RN and size it with a .360 sizer and seat it long to just ingage the rifling ( some barrels you still can't touch the rifling ).

I polished the bore .

I found my barrel will shoot cast either slow or close to max , but the middle loads suck .

I shot my first cast bullet IHMSA 40 with this barrel .

I found AA5744 to produce my best groups with both bullets .

Johnch

anachronism
02-01-2006, 08:36 PM
Try using cast rifle bullets instead of cast pistol bullets. They're longer, and have a better chance of engaging the rifling, while part of the bullet is still in the case. This helped with my .357 Max Contender. In fact, it would be kind of cool to experiment with some heavy 225+ grain LBT rifle bullets for this application, they're full diameter from the base almost all the way to the nose. Yeah!! Cast Performance probably has them. Oooohhh!, try 250 grainers!!

35remington
02-01-2006, 09:14 PM
Some Contender chamberings are cast bullet incompatible because of the way the throat is cut-mine had no throat at all, and shot cast like crap. No matter what, and nobody can think of anything I didn't already try.

If it won't shoot after a reasonable amount of experimentation (and reasonable was 5,000+ rounds for me in hundreds of combinations of load, alloy, seating depth, sizing diameter, filler, etc. etc) then consider throating it or giving up on it as a lost cause.

One of the fallacies of the cast bullet mentality is that any gun can shoot lead, and sadly, in some cases, that just ain't so. You just need to have enough experience to know when you've got a true basket case. Don't give up too soon, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear with cast if all other avenues to improvement are exhausted.

Slowpoke
02-01-2006, 11:44 PM
slugged my bores and shoot boolits sized 2 thousands over and best group size at 100yds is between 7 and 8 inches.my thoughts about cast is Contenders and cast dont mix.both my 357max and 445supermag shoot jacketed very well.giving up on this cast shooting

still going to run the fat 44 group buy though.like to see happy campers you know

i have a brand new Lee 6 holer 180gr mold 357cal from the last group buy i ran i well sell.it makes those wonderful bullets that dont shoot in tenders.

(180 gascheck round flat nose boolits)never even used it.i just shot the 200 i had that a couple of guys sent me to try.i used a friends sizer to size them,good thing i didnt buy one of my own

anyone interested in the mold get with me

I agree with 44 man.

I have a ten inch barrel that was chambered with the same reamer as yours.

With 16 grs.of 820 and the CCI 450 it will put the RCBS 200 and Lyman 315 into the same 1 inch group at a 100 yrds. It will also put the LBT 180 WFN and the group buy copy into the same 1 1/2 group with same 16 grs of 820.

The list doesn't have to be large but sometimes there is a little more to it than sizing .002 over.

Good luck

versifier
02-02-2006, 12:00 AM
My .357mag, .30carb, .30 Herrett, .357Herrett, and .30-30 Contender barrels all love cast boolits and I generally don't shoot anything else out of them. If a chamber cast reveals a throat too short for what you want to shoot, that's what gunsmiths with throating reamers are for, if it's longer than you realized, seat the boolits out farther. Sometimes the bores can be a little rough, but that, too, is easily cured. You don't mention if you slugged your bores, what size(s) you ran, Powders you used, or what the alloy was. If they shoot jacketed well, they will shoot cast - we are not talking about a revolver with the added variables of cylinder throat, forcing cone, and bose size with possible constriction points. I think you are giving up much too easily.

jeff223
02-02-2006, 12:41 AM
well maybe i should tell alittle more about these barrels i have.the 357max is a rechambered 357mag barrel and the TC factory forcing cone is gone and that barrel has a throat and i can reach the lands with no trouble at all.i used leftoverdjs reamer for the job.

i did the same with my 445sm.its a rechambered 44mag barrel and the factory forcing cone is now gone and it has a throat and i can reach the lands with a bullet with no trouble.

both these barrels are setup with burris scopes.the 357max has a 3-9 with AO and the 445sm has a 2-7.both of these barrels shoot jacketed bullets into one inch groups at 100yds with the 445 shooting even tighter at times.with the hornady 265 flat points two into one hole and one just out.the 445 has shot groups out to 200yds to about a 3 inch group.

i did clean all the copper fouling out before i fired cast with barnes CR10.both these barrels seem to copper foul some but do clean up pretty fast.never fired or hand lapped either one.

the only two powders used for all loads so far those being aa1680 and w296 with the 296 being the best for both with jacketed boolits

slugged both my bores with TC maxi hunter boolits and i tapped the bullet in the muzzle then pushed it back out with a wood dowel.i didnt push it on through.i posted a topic about that last week and that ended up being a joke.i guess there is no sure way to slug a bore from what i can see.i even had someone say to shoot a boolit into a swiming pool.

start loads were used with both powders and worked up from there some,also shot some near max with both powders.no signs of accuracy with cast bullets with any size or load so i moved back to jacketed and they hammer just like they always do even without a cleaning the bores after shooting thecast bullets

the 357max had a .355 bore and i have shot .358,.359 and .360 sized bullets (180gr)

the 445sm had a .428 bore and i shot bullets sized at .430 (310gr)

liquid lee alox used as lube except bullets that John H sent me and those had his lube on them (black looking sticky stuff)

i think i about covered it and i want to thank all of you for tring to help me .as you can see i need it

jeff223
02-02-2006, 12:49 AM
one thing i forgot about telling you about.

wheel weights were used and the bullets were heat treated of dropped into water from the mold.

hope this helps.

what next?i will try a few more things to get them to shoot for me

thanks

44man
02-02-2006, 01:29 AM
Could it be that the boolits are too large in diameter for the bore?

David R
02-02-2006, 07:24 AM
Maybe YOUR contender won't shoot cast, Mine will. 1 1/4" at 100 yards.
32-20 LEE soup can with SR4759 as fuel. OAL is most critical.

David

Bass Ackward
02-02-2006, 08:02 AM
Jeff,

If you can get passed the emotion of this being and expensive disappointment so far, I think you can still find success. Virtually every gun can shoot lead. Rifling height and bore condition are the limiters to velocity and choices.

Anytime I have had really bad success (anything over 6" groups) at 100 yards has been because of my bullets being destroyed in the barrel. This is either because pressure was destroying my bullet in the throat area because it peaked too fast or it was going to fast and the rotational forces go it. In a contender, odds are it has to be in the throat. You are already hard and over sized which may be compounding the problem. Especially if you can reach the lands in your new throat configurations. What I would recommend is that you size smaller, go softer, and use a better grade of lube.

If you want to go off line and take your time, I can work with you here. Your choice.

jeff223
02-02-2006, 09:50 AM
so do you think i should size just one thousands over grove?and just cast with wheel weights not dropping into water to harden?what lube should i try?powder?seat into the lands with the bullets?

we could talk on the phone some time too that would be nice.

does everyone think these bullets are a good design for accuracy?

44man
02-02-2006, 09:58 AM
Yes, I would try .001 over bore size.
I have one concern; you say you rechambered a .357 and a .44 to the larger calibers. I do not know if the larger calibers have a different twist rate then the original calibers. Someone has to measure this and post back.
It could be that if the twist rate is wrong for the added velocity, you may have to re-think the length of the boolit you are trying to use.
Some help here guys, those with factory .357's and .357 max calibers, please measure the twist, ditto for the .44 and .445.

Bass Ackward
02-02-2006, 10:03 AM
so do you think i should size just one thousands over grove?and just cast with wheel weights not dropping into water to harden?what lube should i try?powder?seat into the lands with the bullets?

we could talk on the phone some time too that would be nice.

does everyone think these bullets are a good design for accuracy?


Jeff,

Most people running contenders don't realize the pressures they are generating to get the velocity out of short barrels. This is counter to the general rule to start the cast bullet off as easily as possible. Everytime you shorten a barrel, you remove powder options that could be used to start a bullet off more gently. Does that mean your screwed? Certainly not, only that your options for higher velocities decrease over someone not so constrained.

The general rule I use, the harder I go, the closer to bore I size. And if the option is available to me, I seat into the lands ever so slightly. Your bullets will be fine. By fine, I mean accuracy certainly less than what you are currently getting. Liquid Alox is not a good high pressure lube. That is a large part of it. And if you got bullets off John, then I will bet they were too soft for contender acceleration.

The most logical thing to do is take what you got and use a low powder charge to get you about 800 fps and see what happens. If this shoots better, then you know something is going wrong based on your load criteria. You can use your current bullets sized to what ever you got to do this. Just start low and slow even if you need to go to a slightly faster powder. That's how I would start. You need to see some progress to gain some confidence. Then go from there.

If you go off line, I have no qualms about giving you my phone number. Your choice.

jeff223
02-02-2006, 02:54 PM
ha guys ive been thinking about this and i have decided to shoot my 445 with jacketed bullets.the 445sm is my main hunting piece and it shoots so good i dont want to change anything with it.

my 357max will be the one i monkey with just to see if cast will shoot for me.a plinker barrel soto say.a change of powder is a given but what about bore lapping?should this be done first?couldnt hurt anything.you guys give me the steps to go through and i will try to do them.with your help maybe i can end up with a cast shooter.if not no big deal

do some lapping first then reslug the bore?
tell me

thankyou once again
jeff

Singletree
02-02-2006, 03:08 PM
Jeff,
Some things come to mind I would like to share with you. I do hope the chambering reamer you used had a bearing guide on it rather than a solid guide which will put rather nice circular marks in your bore. Second, it works much better if it is sharp so that a burr isn't turned up in the bore at the junction of the throat and rifling. My custom shop 9mm Luger barrel shot 4-5 inch groups at 25 yards. This what worked for me.
1. I used a tight patch with auto paint buffing compound to smooth the bore, paying a bit more attention to the origin of the rifling right at the chamber.
2. I gave up on sizing bullets more than one thousandths over groove diameter. I
also quit using water dropped bullets and went to air cooled. I also cast them of w/w with a quarter pure lead added.
3. My barrel diameter is .358 so I used a Lyman "M" die after sizing the brass to ensure the soft bullets stayed at the diameter sized as they were seated in the case.
The gun will now print around 3/8" with about any load I choose to shoot at 50 yards. T/C barrels are made up on one bore size and then chambered to the required caliber, that is one barrel on the shelf can be my 9mm and the next to it can be a 35 Rem. If your barrel measures .355 it may very well be out of specs.

Bass Ackward
02-02-2006, 04:24 PM
do some lapping first then reslug the bore?
tell me

thankyou once again
jeff

Jeff,

The secret to shooting cast is that it is a mythodical approach of trial and error as a problem solving procedure until you obtain the results you are looking for.

I would say no to fire lapping because you never complained about leading. If your guns shoot jacketed, then they should be fairly dimensionally correct. The purpose of starting slow, is to see results. Then you can start thinking of how to go faster. But you have to start somewhere.

BCB
02-02-2006, 06:34 PM
I have read all the comments with thorough interest. I have 5 Contender barrels and 2 frames. One of the barrels is a rechambered 44 Magnum to 445 Super Magnum. This barrel has never been impressive from day one. That is why I rechambered it hoping for something better and a much better chamber. I even had it recrowned. It is not a cast bullet shooter…Period. Yea, it will hit a groundhog-size steel pendulum at 200 yards most of the time, but then again, so will my Ruger SRH 44 Magnum. A wheel gun shooting as good as or Better than a single shot handgun is not good advertisement of cast bullet shooting from the single shot. Two and one-half inch groups are about the best the Contender will do at 100 yards—most were in the 4” range. I tried several designs of bullets, checked and not checked, different alloys, heat treated and plain wheel weights, as cast and sized. None seemed much better than the other. I had a 3x-12x ‘scope on it so it was not lacking optics…

I have two 223 barrels and several people on this website as well as a couple of other people on other websites have sent me a very good selection of 22 caliber cast bullets. Without checking, I believe I have at least 8 different designs and weights. Most of these bullets were “perfect” by visual investigation and also confirmed on my RCBS 304 scales for weight consistencies. I have, on last count, nearly 60 different powders to choose from, so finding the correct powder shouldn’t be a problem here! Primers…Got plenty of different varieties of those litter critters also. Calipers/micrometers…Yep, got a couple of each of those, so OCL shouldn’t be a guess either. Conclusion after hundreds and hundreds of rounds downrange with both barrels: A groundhog is mostly safe at 100 yards or greater distances with cast bullets. But, with the Hornady 40 grain or 50 bullets, another story can be told. So it isn’t the barrels or chamber that is the problem, but the dislike for cast bullets. The end of the 22 caliber stuff…

Now then, I do also have a 30-30 and a 7-30 barrel. These barrels Will shoot cast bullets. The 30-30 and the 311041 or the C309-150F are M.O.A. shooters at 100 yards. Groups open slightly at 200 yards. The 7-30 Waters, well, there is a cast bullet shooter. I have many groups at 200 yards that are at the 1.5” mark. I am using H-335 or WC-844 and the Lyman 287346 for velocities of a tad less that 2100 fps from the 14” barrel. So some Contender barrels will shoot cast bullets.

And finally, patience is a virtue, or at least I have heard that from somewhere or place throughout my life. All well and good, but one must be able to draw the line between patience and just plain stupidity!!! As far as I know, at least on this planet, if one has patience to continue to drop a rock millions of times in hopes of it falling UP, well that is where stupidity kicks in!!! I have tried almost endlessly to get certain guns to shoot certain loads and it is just plain no go. One other thing that I have noticed is the fact that all good shooters that I have were semi-good shooters with just about everything (cast) that went down the tube. Fine tuning allowed for M.O.A. or better shooters. At this point, patience is a virtue. And so it goes…BCB

35remington
02-02-2006, 07:29 PM
My experiences have been pretty much like BCB's; some T/C's shoot cast well, others are completely horrible.

All are good jacketed bullet shooters, so if it shoots the jacketed bullet there is no reason to assume it will be competent with cast. "Poor shooters" in my definition can't do better than around 1.5 inches at 50. Frankly, for what I do, even that's marginal. A lot of my Contender barrels are in small game calibers, so what is passable for deer hunting under 200 yards doesn't meet my criteria for acceptable accuracy.

My suggestion would be to avoid T/C Custom shop barrels as lead bullet shooters unless T/C can provide detailed information about barrel and chamber dimensions in your selected caliber beforehand. Even then, I'd be leery.

I'd just like to re-emphasize that you don't necessarily have to give up on a barrel, but if the good folks here cannot help you, then consider either modifying the barrel (with no guarantee of good results) or simply relegate it to jacketed bullets only. If your T/C experience turns out like mine you WILL run into barrels that will not shoot lead no matter what you try.

Having a barrel that won't shoot lead absolutely galls me, though, so some of my Contender non-shooters got rechambered to other calibers, cleaning up the chamber and throat dimensions to the point where they now work fine. My 25-20, for example, is now a 25-35. However, after that's done, you'll have enough money invested in the barrel that you should have purchased another brand of aftermarket barrel (instead of the T/C) in the first place.

I have also heard that T/C doesn't stress relieve the barrels after welding on the lugs, or does it in such a way that the barrels are stressed. My .25-20 groups, cast or jacketed, would go completely wild whenever the barrel got even a little past lukewarm. My .25-20 and .22 K-Hornet T/C barrels (among others) are the biggest turkeys for lead I've ever encountered, but the K shoots select jacketed loads so well I've left it alone.

My 7-30 Waters barrel is pretty good with cast, though, and my .35 Remington barrel shoots lead just as well as jacketed. I hope you've got one like these, and a little load refinement improves things for you.

jeff223
02-03-2006, 12:20 AM
thanks for all the input on this cast boolit shooting.itsnice to have so many willing to post on this.

some good info about TC barrels too from guys that have them.its just hard for me to figure out why mine shoot jacketed so good and then shoot so bad with cast.i think it would be nice to have a cast shooter but that no big deal if i dont.im going to try a differant powder and slow things down some.if my barrel shoots then i will speed things up some.if no accuracy with the slow loads im going to scrap the whole cast boolit idea and shoot the jacketed bullets that i have in the past.

thanks once again

44man
02-03-2006, 01:01 AM
I have seen some TC's that were tack drivers and some real dogs with any bullet. TC has never got it all together and I will never buy another. They used to put on a new barrel with no questions, but no more.
My friend bought one of the new TC hawkin rifles with the easy start muzzle. We tried every boolit and ball and every powder and charge. We could not keep it on paper at 50 yd's. He sent it back and all they did was bend the keys to hold it in the stock tighter, still would not shoot. He called them and they gave him nothing but static. It took many calls and a lot of cussing them out for them to agree to change the barrel. It shot worse then the first one and we did everything we could including glass bedding it. A real piece of crap!
However, all the contenders that I have been involved with that shot jacketed good also shot cast. I can understand why some of you do have trouble knowing how bad some TC's are. You are all shedding new light on just why I hate them so much. I did not know about the different chambering dimensions. I only owned one and it was unbelievable with a cast boolit. All of my friends didn't shoot cast but some were also very accurate with either bullet but some just would not shoot anything.
I figured from my experience that one that shot jacketed very well would also shoot cast but now you are teaching me that it just doesn't work that way.
Another reason why I will never again buy anything made by TC.

jeff223
02-03-2006, 08:11 AM
44man im going to try to get one of theseto shoot cast good and if i do i will le everyone know n way or the other

im not a pistol fan at all and i have no use for them but i do love the hand rifles.CONTENDERS and ENCORES fall into ths catagory .i love it when im at the range shooting and i leave the rifle shootres scratching thier heads when a Contender out shoots them.sightin days at the range right before the deer firearm really brings out the crowd and i try to be there shooting my tc contender.scratching heads when most leave but im shooting jacketed bullets then

44man
02-03-2006, 01:14 PM
It's fun, I have seen guys with rifles leave the range after seeing some of my groups from pistols. My MOA will shoot 5 shots in 3/8" at 100 yd's and my Witchita 7R has shot 1" groups at 200 meters. The Contender I had was super but I don't trust TC to make two guns the same. If you have a good one, keep it. Seems as if TC just throws a piece of steel at a machine and whatever comes out the other end goes on a gun. No accuracy standards, no test firing and no rejects. God have mercy if they have to scrap a barrel!

Nrut
02-04-2006, 12:59 AM
Jeff.....In the eigthy's I shot a factory 10" .357 SM T/C with a load out of IHMSA's news letter....In my T/C with a 2X scope on a rest it would ave. 1 1/4" (5 shot) at 100 yds.
the load was
1. H4227 (not IMR as I tried it and it did'nt shoot near as good)
2. bullet was either 200gr. RCBS or Lyman...(I used RCBS)
3. bullet sized .358
4. I don't recall the bullet hardness,lube(LBT Blue I think), powder charge,dies used or primer type...
I found when I got away from using 296 & H110 and started using heavier bullets and H4227 my .357SM would shot like a house afire....wish I could be more help but left my T/C's and data in the states when I moved up here to Canada....good luck mic

jeff223
02-04-2006, 03:45 PM
thanks for your input

H4227 is the next on my list to try

Johnch
02-04-2006, 07:24 PM
Jeff in my custom 357 mag .
I use slightly reduced loads and seat the bullet out to ingrave in the rifling when I close it .

It closes a little hard , but the results are worth it .
But the loaded round normaly will not extract with out extractor dammage , so I fire every round I chamber .

I didn't tell you about this before because few guys are willing to mess around .

Johnch

jeff223
02-07-2006, 12:54 PM
going to try some cast again.i found out i had a scope problem.well let you know how they shoot with a differant scope once the weather breaks again.its cold out side here in Michigan right now

357maximum
02-09-2006, 06:52 PM
Yes Jeff it is cold here in Michigan, personally I think you got contenderidous, some of their barrels are dogs. Keep the frame if you cannot get it to work egouge the barrel and think about a custom barrel. Match Grade Machine (a.k.a virgin valley) will make you anything you want, and their barrels make a mirror look rough. Bullberry and Ott make good ones too, but MGM is more attuned to the customer. My 357 max encore will (so far) digest anything I have launched with it. It is a little tight bore wise and sizing to 358 with 158 to 200 grainers has worked well with it, and it has a throat not a t/c forcing cone. Their (TC) rifle and pistol barrels remind me more of a shotgun forcing cone, not a throat. I ordered my throat a little short, but my 185 grainer from the mountain man works excellent. I ordered the mold according to my throat with a 385 nose length, the lead is actually engraved at loading. (my dad tried this in his herret and got higher pressures than normal, he backed of charge and he actually got the same velocity with less powder) So far the 4227 works for best for me ( about a 98% load) seems to be less temp sensitive too "extreme". I cannot get enough AA1680 in the case to even get close to max.

Jeff where you at here in Granholms' lair?
Little north of Lansing along 127 corridor here.

lovedogs
02-16-2006, 07:09 PM
Personally, I love my Contender. I've only got a half dozen barrels on hand at present. All I've had is good luck with them so far. Only recently have I tried cast bullets in them and then only in a Super 14 stainless .44 mag. Weather here is still too cold to do much in the way of real testing, but so far it looks like it'll work out just fine. I'm into long-range buffalo rifles and silhouettes at a half mile and lately have gotten the crazy idea that I can shoot that course with my Contender .44. Friends say nix, but I'm doing okay out to 500 yds. so far. When weather improves I plan on going to the 876 yd. mark and trying it with cast 250 gr. Saeco cast bullets.

A good source for knowledgable input and good quality work on all T/C's is Mike Bellm in Oregon. His e-mail is mike@bellmtcs.com He straightens out all sorts of problems and can probably answer any questions you might have on your T/C's.

versifier
02-17-2006, 05:47 PM
Just so you know, (and I am not sure of the current situation), but T/C would often have their Contender blanks drilled, reamed, and rifled elsewhere. In the 80's, you could tell then by the direction of twist: T/C's had a left hand twist, and GM (oops, I wasn't supposed to mention them by name; bad, bad Tom, go lay down!) used a right hand twist and would shoot much better groups. This does not address the chambering/throating issue and is not intended to, but it may shed some light on one reason why some of them are more cast friendly than others.
I know I've talked about this before, but I think it bears repeating here. It comes down to the issue of the care taken in drilling and the number of steps involved in the reaming process by different barrel makers. It is a common misconception that pushing or pulling a button through a barrel smoothes all of the tool marks out of it. Yes, metal is displaced and it does have to go somewhere, and some smoothing out does take place, but not so much that it can make up for poor preparation of the blank. The "sharper" or more precisely ground the deep hole drill, the fewer and shallower the spiral grooves that are left by it. It is not uncommon however to wait until they start to howl before resharpening. (You can tell the status of the bit by the sound it makes as it is pushed into the spinning blank.) So, in any run, there are some blanks that are smoother than others right from the outset. Next, the reaming process can be done in one, two, or three (more, too, but not necessarily economically) stages. Reamers get dull, too, though they do not need resharpening as often as do the drills, and every resharpening reduces their diameter slightly. The newest and largest (finish diameter) are the last ones used, but the more metal they are forced to remove, the rougher a surface they leave, that's why it is best done in progressive stages. Even the best reaming job will not remove the deepest spirals left by the dullest drills completely, but they will clean up the minimal marks left by a sharp drill very nicely. Then the blanks are thoroughly cleaned out, coated with a special teflon lube, and buttoned. The better barrel makers will air guage or borescope their barrels at this point and grade them all, but for commercial producers, they are just checked randomly (probably so the borescope doesn't gather too much dust), then crated and shipped to the gunmaker's factory for contouring, finishing, fitting, and chambering. I don't believe that many firms stress relieve their barrels, as the conventional wisdom is that you disturb (stress) it by drilling, etc., then you "balance" those stresses by machining the outside of it, too. It never, in all honesty, made a lot of sense to me at the time, but I shut up and did what I was told and we made some damned accurate barrels that set an impressive amount of records over the years in the guns of a surprising list of major companies, none of whom would ever admit to outsourcing their blanks.
The long and short of it all is that you can supposedly "break in" a rougher barrel by putting a lot of jacketed loads through it and get them to shoot respectably, but it is my opinion that some of these tool marks are filled with copper or gilding metal, and when thoroughly cleaned prior to shooting with cast, this "smoothness" is sometimes removed. It would certainly help to make the case for abrasive or fire lapping if true, and would also help to explain why some good shooters with jacketed won't perform with cast boolits at all.

44man
02-17-2006, 07:13 PM
Thank you, that was very informative. Ruger rifles had the same problem until they started making their own barrels.

versifier
02-18-2006, 12:27 AM
Who says they make all their own barrels? Besides their marketing people that is? I have a hard time believing it, as I do with any company that makes such an improbable claim. Most make some.

Lloyd Smale
02-18-2006, 05:24 AM
everybody told me a contendor in 45/410 wont shoot too. But i bought my old man a encore for his 70th birthday and with a rcbs 255 cast out of #2 sized to 452 loaded with 9 grains of unique and a fed primmer it shoots into an inch at 25 with the crude shotgun type sights. Play around enough with just about any gun and you can find something that works

joeb33050
03-09-2010, 08:53 AM
I had a Contender for over 20 years, barrels in 32-20, 7TCU, 6.5TCU, 30-30 and 30-30 Carbine. Probably others. I never got it to shoot cast bullets to average under 3" at 100 yards, although some barresl shot some jacketed bullets very well.
I sold it, now have a Savage Striker and a Competitor, pistols.
The Competitor allows changing barrels and extractors if needed easily, the Striker allows barrel and bolt head switching easily--neither as easily or fast as changing Contender/Encore barrels.
With either the Striker 308 Win or Competitor 30BR I can reliably shoot 5 shot 5 group averages under 2" at 100 yards with cast bullets.
Given the way these pistols shoot, and the ease of changing barrels and cartridges, I don't know why anyone uses a Contender or Encore any more for serious long range accuracy work.
joe b. Democrat and shooter

jimb16
03-09-2010, 04:59 PM
I've got 8 TC barrels myself. The only one I get leading with is the .44 mag and that is only with my HOT deer load. It is an extremely accurate load, but it leads horribly. But then I only need one shot at a time! Mine include .22 rf, 2-7TCU (One pistol one rifle), .222 Rem, .223 Rem, 44 mag. and .45 colt plus a .410 shotgun barrel. Cast bullets in all......

44man
03-10-2010, 10:35 AM
These were shot at 100 yards with the TC 30-30 I had. The problem was it copper and lead fouled so bad it was a real chore to clean.
I tried this boolit without a gas check once and all shots key holed at 50 meters.
I sold the gun to a friend and when spotting for him at an IHMSA shoot, the boolit would swing clear over to the next ram and swing back to hit the one he was shooting at. Both of us went nuts with windage adjustments at other ranges.

leadman
03-10-2010, 12:40 PM
I had trouble with my rechambered 44 mag barrel in 445 SM until I switched from Red Angel to LBT Blue Soft. Shot much better with no leading.
Then I had it rechambered to 444 Marlin. It shot fantastic with the 265gr Hornady and real well (2 to 3") at 100 yards with the Lee 310gr RFN at 1,900 fps. This left debris in the barrel that pushed out with a patch. Wanted to use it on elk but never got the chance.
the 310gr would shoot 1 to 2" at 100yards with a reduced load at about 1,600fps.

I think LLA is not an adequate lube to use in a Contender with his cartridges. There are many good lubes that should help you out. Lar's BAC can be easily applied by hand and he is a sponsor here and reasonable prices.

I also have not had the best results with 296 in these cartridges. The surplus WC680 seems to be better. Don't know how this compares with 1680.

I have also used 4198 for reduced velocity cast loads, along with Rel7.

As mentioned, Mike Bellm has many articles on his website that may help you out.

bobthenailer
03-10-2010, 07:21 PM
had a contender in 32/20 and 7mm tcu both refused to shoot cast bullets , i tried different sizing dia , 2 bullets in the 32/20 , which shoot excellent in my rpm xl in 32.20 and about 7 different powders! in the tcu 4 different bullets and 8 powders none shoot well enough to use in a match . but they shoot well in my 7mm ishma, but both barrels shot jackated bullets excellent . i sold both barrels but i still have 2 hornets & a 22 lr match but i only shoot jacketed in the hornets