powder for case filler?

[runfiverun]

i have been kicking around the idea of using a slowww powder like 5010 or 869
on top of 28-30 grains of 4895 in a 06 case.
have any of y'all tried this?
i only need to run in the 1900-2000fps range and am thinking i might be pushing the boolit all the way down the bore with the slower powder not a bad thing if i can keep the pressure constant with a fall off but......
ideas.
thanks guy's/gals.

[Shiloh]

Sounds like what they used to call a duplex load. Also sounds very dangerous to me.
How does one safely work up something like this using powders of different burn rates??

Back in the early 80's at a range in Lafayette Colorado, I saw two hillbillies experimenting with duplex loads in surplus 8mm Mauser variants. The first fellow had to pound his bolt open. There was brass flowing into the bolt from the ruptured case. This was not enough of a lesson for his buddy. This fellow couldn't open his bolt at all.
Geez, the range is now an established housing development.

I don't use fillers at all. It's just not for me. There are many here who use dacron pillow stuffing in measured amounts. I would suggest a search on fillers, read the posts, and
PM some of the guys who do use fillers. Fillers can and are done safely.

Shiloh

[The Double D]

Runfiverun, how do you keep the slow powder from igniting?

[runfiverun]

i am thinking that since powders need pressure to burn properly, that with the lower pressure of the faster powder it won't leave enough time for the slower powder to burn [at least completely]
i am also thinking i may have a mess of unburned powder not a two stage launch.
more like burning powder in the open.

[1Shirt]

Not a smart idea! Stay with proven and tested loads!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Char-Gar]

Will I wouldn't top a load of smokless with another load of smokeless, but black powder makes a great filler on top of smokless. It burns clean and adds little or nothing to velocity and pressure.

Duplex loading does has it's applications, but it is not something for the green horn or folks who really don't know what they are doing. I have duplexed many rounds of WC872 with a small charge of 3031 as a kicker.

IMHO the best filler is Grex/PSB/shotshell buffer. It doesn't present any possible chamber ringing issues and won't harden into a cake if moisture get to it like an organic filler might. You do have to consider the weight of the filler into the total weight of the ejecta for pressure purposes.

[454PB]

You don't need the duplexed, faster burning powder.

I load 180 gr. GC'd boolits on top of a case full of WC860 in my 308 Winchester. Yes, it's dirty, leaving lots of unburned powder in the barrel, but it groups under 2" at 100 yards.

[kir_kenix]

I say try it. I would be interested with your results. Might want to use string to pull the trigger on the first few...

The idea is a sound one, keeping the pressure consistant throughout the whole length of the barrel...but I doubt it can be done with 2 off the shelf powders. Just be real careful and work up slowly, keeping an eye on all the pressure "indicators". Might be a real good idea to chrony your loads from the get go, so you can see if something is out of whack or real inconsistant from the first few shots.

[Kuato]

Loaded WC860 in a 7.5x55 Swiss with a LEE 200gr & mag primer. Loaded just about to the neck. Burned clean with no trash & shot well.

[AZ-Stew]

Call the Sierra Bullets Tech line. It's free: 1.800.223.8799

Tell them what you want to do and let them explain what may happen. These guys are very savvy.

Regards,

Stew

[Shiloh]

Call the Sierra Bullets Tech line. It's free: 1.800.223.8799

Tell them what you want to do and let them explain what may happen. These guys are very savvy.

Regards,

Stew

Outstanding Advice!!

Shiloh

[tommag]

I was using 860 for my swede, and a while back, I heard Tom Gresham ask the question "What if all that powder somehow ignited properly?"
I am not educated, but it got me to thinking....
Using it on top of 4895 might well boost pressures quickly enough to get an efficient burn of your 5010. Someone with actual knowledge will probably tell me it's impossible, but I'm thinking the 4895 or whatever faster powder could get the pressure level up there to where the 5010 could take off.
If I had an old junker I didn't mind sacrificing, a tire-mount with a string on the trigger might be a bit of fun, and then, I think I would have to repeat the process quite a few times before I trusted it.

[rbuck351]

This can be done safely but don't start with a load that already has quite a bit of pressure and then add more of any kind of powder as it will add more pressure. If your going to use really slow powders, start with a case full and crony and check for pressure. Load some more replacing a few grains of the slow powder with a few of a faster powder. Shoot and check. Now, keep working up with more faster powder and less slower keeping the case full so the bullet compresses the powder to keep the faster against the primer. You should reach clean burn before to much pressure. You should be able to reach a good velocity without excessive pressure. Only increase the faster powder a grain or two at a time to prevent pressure spiking.

[kir_kenix]

Only increase the faster powder a grain or two at a time to prevent pressure spiking.


I don't know...this sounds even more risky to me. We know the fast burning powder is going to ignite easily, and expend all of its energy in a very short amount of time. Seems to me that this would most deff. induce major pressure spikes/problems. I agree with rbuck's method of going slowly and adjusting powder in small incriments however.

I'm no balstician (sp?), but I think Lamar had it right the first time...adding a bit of sloooow burning powder as a filler that will be difficult to ignite and keep the pressure curve going just a bit longer.

[Willbird]

Some of the powder companies USED to list data for pistol cases with a full case of rifle powder. I have tried it with H322 and a case full in 357 or 44 magnum makes enough energy to get the job done if the alternative was no ammunition at all.

Bill

[jhrosier]

I have heard of folks using a casefull of slow burning .50BMG to propel a boolit.
Some even suggest using a very small 'booster' charge of 4198 to help ignition.
I believe that the loads are supposed to be full to touching the base of the boolit.
I have 24 pounds of WWCW872 and was briefly tempted to try it, but the voices in my head disagree.:veryconfu
Maybe I will just trade off the powder locally, 2:1 for Unique or Bulleye.

Jack

[No_1]

I dunno. Seems kinda risky to me. I believe the primary load will act as one big primer for the secondary load. The action happening in the case could be just the beginning of the fireworks. The barrel could become the "chamber" if you will and with the bullet sealing on the way out, the secondary load could have plenty of time to fully burn and build pressure on top of the pressure from the primary load.

Seems like a waste of good money using that slower powder as filler when you can accomplish the same thing using old tumbling media as filler.

Now if you are trying to use up some surplus 5010 on hand why not use a small amount of fast burning pistol powder in front of a full case of 5010?

Either way I am interested in your results. Please, PLEASE be very careful in your experiments and heed the warnings of those posting before me.

Robert

[runfiverun]

so the possibilities i am coming up with are
!. a "kicker' of faster powder like 5 grs red dot or faster and a case full of the slow stuff like a b/p load.
2. a slower powder[3031,4064] with the waaay slower powder over it.
to keep initial pressures low, and any burn of the other powder as a boost.
i have already tried the other fillers, dacron etc.
i do have a couple of k-98's that are definatly expendable as one is converted to 308,and the other is a cut down 0-6 bbl that i haven't even checked the chambering on yet.
tire string and chrono i have also.
now for some weather.

[mikenbarb]

Why waste good smokeless powder if it isnt gonna burn behind a boolit?:confused:

[rbuck351]

There are a couple of reasons for doing this. First 5010 and the like was really cheap as pull down powder but is to slow for most loads and burns dirty and imcompletly. So, you put a small booster charge over the primer and fill the case with 5010. Some people use pistol powders and some use fast rifle powders starting with a few grains, say 5 and gradually increasing the booster and reducing the 5010 until you get clean burn. Another reason is for shooting cast to keep the initial bump pressure low so the boolit does't skid starting down the barrel. But don't start with 20 or 30 grs of some thing and fill with 5010 expecting it not to burn as it will burn nicely when the pressure gets high enough. And keep the case full to prevent mixing of the powders.

[dualsport]

So RunFive, any news? I want to do the same thing in my 7mm Magnum. I'm thinking of a couple grains of Bullseye under a case full of 5010 , with a magnum primer and a Lyman 175(? ). Just looking for a fun way to play with my old Rem. 700 and do some real cheap shooting.

[JSnover]

Duplex loads have been proven to work but are pretty risky to develop on your own, as I understand them. Paul Matthews wrote about using a pinch of smokeless (3-5% of the total charge weight, I think) under a casefull of black to burn the fouling out. The purpose was to keep the bore clean and he claimed it worked pretty well.

[runfiverun]

i tried option one with the 5grs of clays and the slower powder.
it gave results and pretty low pressures,not exactly what i was looking for.
i am kinda looking at now using option 2 and maybe another option of using like 4831.
in the 7x57 case a low charge [36 grs] showed some really nice groups at 50 yds but were dismal failures at 100.
i may try some h-860 for the last 20 or so grs and back down the 4831 to around 30 grs and use a pistol primer

[dualsport]

That's interesting, I like that experimental stuff, especially when it works and saves me money. I'm still trying to fully understand the concept of 'start 'em slow then push' and how to make that happen. It makes sense to me to get the bullet moving in the bore before kicking it in the @$$ real hard.

[ETG]

I've had real good luck with 215gns of 5010 behind a 672gn projo :D

[XWrench3]

THIS IS A DANGEROUS GAME! EVEN THE SLOWEST POWDER EVER MADE, IS MEASURED IN MILISECONDS. JUST DON'T DO IT! if you HAVE to stuff your case with something, use dacron or some other known filler (rice, cream of wheat, etc.) that will not burn AND add pressure to your cartridge. IF this was a safe practice, the big ammo companies would be doing it.

[NoDakJak]

Why not try using straight 4831. For several years I would simply pour a bowl full of 4831 and dip a 30-06 case through it and then seat a 150fn 30-30, jacketed bullet. According to the data that I was using at the time the max pressure with this combination was 38,000 psi. The maximum that I could pack in the case was two grains less then the stated max. If your velocities run a bit high simply use less powder and pack some drier lint or dacron between the powder and boolit base. That would probably help your accuracy anyway. Neil

[Bullshop]

THIS IS A DANGEROUS GAME! EVEN THE SLOWEST POWDER EVER MADE, IS MEASURED IN MILISECONDS. JUST DON'T DO IT! if you HAVE to stuff your case with something, use dacron or some other known filler (rice, cream of wheat, etc.) that will not burn AND add pressure to your cartridge. IF this was a safe practice, the big ammo companies would be doing it.

BULL!!!
Was done, can be done, will be done safely.
The big companies want no liability, period.
What one compitant man can and does do safely another less compitant (idiot) can, will (murphy) cause greafe.
Leaving my own personal experiance ,which is plenty out of the picture, look into the experiances of people like Donaldson, Keith, Casull just to name a few.
Persoanlly I am offendid by your statment because basicly you as have others with far less experiance are calling me a carless idiot for choosing to use loading techniques that if anyone cared to research would find plenty of documentation on the subjest.
How about this, how about you and I have a postal match and compete with our boolits in the firearm of our choosing. I will shoot only multiplex (duplex or triplex) smokless powder and you shoot loads containing only a single powder. Lets say 100 yards, 10 shots for group, send in your best target. It will be fun and we may all here learn a few things.
No offence ment but I do feel I have to defend my position on this matter as I have had to do in the past.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[JSnover]

I don't know if they still do it but there was a time when custom rifles with wildcat chambers were built and shipped with duplex loaded ammuntion, along with load data for the new owner to roll his own. It's not anything I'd want to try (... maybe someday) but if someone else has already worked up the data, tested the load and found it to be safe, documented the results... Kinda hard to say it can't be done.

[Bullshop]

Without going through my books, right off the top of my head if anyone has Parker Ackley's Handbook For Shooters and Reloaders look up the 454 Casull. That is a good example of multiplex smokless powder loading. Remember those loads were developed before the 454 case so were put up in 45 colt cases. Also remember that the guns were 5 shot Colt peace makers not the big frame Freedom Arms we know today.
I will agree that multiplexing is not for the beginner. It takes many years and pounds of powder burned to have a grasp on how powders burn. Yes it can be dangerous but isnt loading ammo in any form, or how about driving your car? Both can be done with a fair amount of saftey.
BIC/BS

[JRW]

Just curious, but in all these homebrewed recipes, has anyone run the loads through a pressure gun, or any testing device? I see passion on both sides of the coin, but no evidence that can be duplicated or evaluated, only anecdotal. JMHO.

[w30wcf]

Duplex loading can be very safe if the right powders are used. One thing to remember is that the amount and type of powder that goes in first should be treated as a full capacity load in a cartridge of that capacity.

For example, in the original post the user wanted to use 28-30 grs. of 4895 in a 30-06 case to obtain 1900-2000 f.p.s. No bullet weight was given which is important. The closest cartridge to that capacity is the .30-30. 30 grs. /4895 in the .30-30 will produce velocities in that range with 180 gr. cast bullets.

Next, look at what a full case of the proposed filler powder will produce in the .30-06. Assuming a 180 gr. bullet, 59 grs. of H450 will produce 48,200 CUP which is not that far from MAP.

Thus, the combination of 28 to30 grs, of 4895 with the rest of the case filled with H450 will produce pressures exceeding the MAP for the .30-06 and would not be a recommended combination.

w30wcf

[JRW]

w30wcf

Thanks for the brief, but clear explanation. Much easier to think about combinations now. JRW

[JCherry]

I've used duplex loads to utilize WC872 in a 45-70 Sharps (Pedersoli) with a 535 gr bullet, almost pure lead with a gas check. I used 4198 and 2400 as an initiator as a load consisting only of WC872 left so much unburned powder in the barrel that I could not load the next round. The amount of 4198 or 2400 was about a .22 LR case full (about 4 grains). The 4198 loads gave a velocity of about 1150 fps. I wanted a velocity of about 1250 fps and tried the same amount of 2400 and indeed got the 1250 fps velocity. The WC872 in these loads was a compressed load, I think about 51 grains. I don't have my load book in front of me so do not depend on the above. Not to mention I have seen quite a variation in the burn rate of two different lots of WC872.

Accuracy of this load was cloverleafs at 100 yards. I shot the load at 500 yards but the insert in my globe front sight came loose so I can't say if it is any good at mid range.

I used the WC872 in the 45-70 as it's been sitting around and I saw a reference to such practice by, I think 9.3X62AL.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[runfiverun]

30 pretty well summed up why i was thinking the 3rd option of going slow/slower instead of fast/ slower.
now a case full of 4831 might not be much in the 0-6.
but the x57 case holds well over 50 grs of it and 49 grs will launch a 139 gr jacketed to almost 2700 fps.
the case of interest here is the 308,as the two rifles that might be broken are chambered in it and really are no loss to anybody.
the idea is to get the boolit engaged,the bore sealed and keep shoving it.
if i can do it with unburned powder forming a base seal/plug so much the better.
oh yeah and secondly i just wanna do it.

[rickster]

The problem that I have run into when experimenting with slow powder as filler is that occasionally unburnt grains fall back into the chamber and either jam the cartridge as it goes in, or leave a dent in the case, or both.

[Rocky Raab]

I'll try to say this a civilly as possible.

Imagining what might work is fun, but doing it is not if you have no concept of what really happens inside a gun. After you pull the trigger is too late to change your mind or stop what happens.

Be sure to pay up your insurance, and leave a note for your next of kin.

[dverna]

If you guys think this is OK, you need to see pictures of guns that have blown up.

Don

[Rocky Raab]

Welcome to the forum, Don.

[dverna]

RR

I am disappointed that my first post was a negative one. There is a lot of good stuff on the forum but threads like this make me wonder.

I used to cast a lot when I was young and poor. Used an H&G 10 cavity mold for pistol and a single cavity Lyman for the .308. Blended range lead and Linotype for the pistol bullets to keep costs down.

Now, I am buying molds as I fear we will need to be self-sufficient soon. Plus, as I near retirement, I will have more time to spend.

My goals are to produce match quality rifle bullets for my .30's, a 38-55 and a 45/70. I will probably go with Hoch molds for the bigger calibers but I am still learning. For pistols, I am all set for my 38's and 45's; but I am looking for 9mm and 44 molds.

Thanks for the welcome.

Don

[rbuck351]

This idea is no more dangerous than working up to a max load in a rifle using loading books. But, there is a method. You CANNOT start with a healthy load of a fast or medium burn powder and then fill the case with 870 or 5010. Once pressure is high enough, the 5010 will burn very nicely adding a whole lot more pressure. You HAVE to start with a full case of powder that is KNOWN to be too slow for the intended cartridge and bullet combo. Let's say you start with a 30/06 and a 180 gr boolit. Fill the case with 5010 and crono the load and check for unburned powder and pressure signs. If all looks ok and it should other than unburned powder, then move on. Next, lower the 5010 charge by a couple of grains and put a couple of grs of a faster powder ( say 2400) over the primer and add the reduced 5010 charge making sure the 5010 still fills the case to the bullet. Fire and check for pressure. If all is ok, move up to 4 grs of 2400 and reduce the 5010 accordingly. When you get up to about 5grs of the fast powder you should start to see some better burning of the 5010, increased velocities, and increased pressure. Now it's time to increase in 1gr jumps or stop if you have reached your pressure or velocity limits. I have only done this in two rifles, A 35rem and a 358Norma. Both have shown rapid increases in pressure rise when the 5010 starts to burn clean. Keep in mind the 5010 is not cream of wheat and when pressure starts to rise it will burn and add to the mix. DO NOT start with more than 2 or 3 grs of the faster powder

[Bullshop]

I have seen many blown up guns.. They have all been either from a barrel obstruction or an overcharge usually due to mistakenly using the wrong powder.
I have never seen or heard of anyone blowing a gun with a duplex load.
What your saying is that some of the greatest pioneers of reloading were wrong in what they wrote about using duplex loading. Comon, People like Harvy Donaldson, comon.
It may be dark to you until you learn but dont be so closed minded because you do not use the procedure. Maybe its my spelling or sumthin that makes you believe me a fool but my inexperiance with education has nothing to do with my experiance in loading ammo. I will soon God willing have Jr. put up a couple pics of targets I fired many years ago with duplex. I shot the Quiggley with duplex and finished in the top ten. My loads had an extream velocity spread in the single digits. If you truely seek accuracy in your loading you have to confess that that kind of consistancy is what we strive for and when achieved shows all is well with the load, not a bomb waiting to go off.
See if you can get your hands on any of Donaldsons early stuff on Shutzen loading. They duplexed with some of the early semi smokless powders. Now Donaldson is a man whoes work the industry followed not the other way around.
You guys are being a bit shallow in the depth of your research on the subject of duplex loading.
Now let me see if I can get Jr to put up them pictures.
Still no nay sayers taking up the postal match offer?
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

I guess I am destined to blow up a rifle. I've been doing duplex loadings in various firearms for at least 25 years.

[mold maker]

" Plus, as I near retirement, I will have more time to spend."

These are famous last words of a great many. I think, you'll soon find that you had lots more "TIME", while you were still fully employed.
I was retired, with the same idea. Boy was that a joke. After 2 1/2 years, I'm still looking for all that extra time I was supposed to have. I have more to do, and a lot less time now, than ever before in my life.
You better enjoy the time you still have on the job. It will soon be lost for eternity.
BTW, I have at least 7 unused molds and over a ton of lead that can't get togather, but I'm still looking for casting TIME.

[Bullshop]

Here Are are the pics Dad wanted up.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=218&pictureid=1399

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=218&pictureid=1398

[carpetman]

I'm missing something. With all the selection of powder available to think there is not some that fits the need seems far fetched. What elaborate sophisticated equipment is available to measure is the powder pushing, spanking, kissing, kicking butt or whtever else? This all happens in a fraction of a nano second so how do you know? I realize if there is unburned powder you probably need a different powder.

[qajaq59]

" Plus, as I near retirement, I will have more time to spend."

These are famous last words of a great many. I think, you'll soon find that you had lots more "TIME", while you were still fully employed.
I was retired, with the same idea. Boy was that a joke. After 2 1/2 years, I'm still looking for all that extra time I was supposed to have. I have more to do, and a lot less time now, than ever before in my life.
You better enjoy the time you still have on the job. It will soon be lost for eternity.
BTW, I have at least 7 unused molds and over a ton of lead that can't get togather, but I'm still looking for casting TIME. You have to set some priorities there Mold Maker. First you cast. Then you load. Then you hunt and fish....... And thennnnn you do chores, or better yet, hire them done and start over with the casting. :smile:

[Rocky Raab]

Well, I can say one thing with absolute assurance: If you persist in using duplex loads of smokeless powder you might not blow yourself up. But if you don't use duplex loads, none will ever blow you up.

I can see no conceivable benefit whatever to this potentially fatal practice.

[waksupi]

Are duplex loads of smokeless powder any more dangerous than the duplexing of BPCR's? Thousands of shooters do it.

I don't recommend the practice for either, unless you are very familiar with the powders you are using.

[Bullshop]

OK OK so its dangerous, so is driving your car or loading ammo of any kind. I think that statisticly you are in greater danger every time you get behind the wheel and pull out onto the hiway, but you still do it.
Dangerous or not you can not deny the accuracy of those loads with boolits and isnt that why we are all here trying to learn ? If your not open minded enough to accept someone elses success in an area you know little about how do you expect to learn?
It dont matter to me in what ways you limit yourselves but that is what your doing by rejecting proof. No I havnt offerd any pressure data but I think the targets along with the chrono readings tell the story. Cant hardly dispute that.
BIC/BS

[jimkim]

Does Veral Smith still visit us? I think he would be the one to consult with on this subject.

[dualsport]

First off, nice groups Bullshop. It's also nice to see someone else using Lee dippers! I load match ammo with them sometimes and am not always last. One thing I noticed is people citing examples of straight wall cases and also bottle neck. I'm pretty sure there's a big difference in the whole duplex thing between the two, based on what I've learned. I think rbuck hit the nail on the head, this has to be done(if at all) very carefully and intelligently. Runfive did mention he had a string and a tire, let's let him have at it and see what happens. He's a big boy and seems to know his stuff. For now I'll just try cramming a case full of those big crunchy kernals in a 7mm Mag case and settle for that. If Runfive doesn't drop off the forum all of a sudden then maybe I'll try a LITTLE kicker. Didn't Paul Mathews use a smokeless duplex in his 45-70? I'll have to look it up, and Ackley's book too.

[runfiverun]

this is a bit trickier than a kicker load.
it's about gas volumne plain and simple.
the issue is how to control it.
when is the second powder going to burn,and for how long is the question.
i meed to start a slow pressure curve maintain it and add to the gas volumne,not the pressure.
i then need it to drop off fairly quickly.
maybe two powders closer together is the answer.
the only way i am gonna find out is to burn the powder in the bbl over the chrono.
i don't have to hold the rifle,to do that.
what i probably do need to do is to gather the fired boolits back and use a fairly soft alloy and a fairly hard alloy to compare.
i think if i get any kind of accuracy with a soft alloy i am getting somewhere.
i am still working the details out on a moly/lithium based lube that might just
be the ticket for this type of thing.
but this is a learning exercise,not a mission to the moon.
and i just might learn something about accuracy at high vel with a fairly fast [10] twist bbl.
heck i might not learn anything,except that i can blow up 20 dollar guns.
and if i learn something from that, i might try a couple of 40 dollar ones.
i had people tell me i couldn't make 7.7 and 7.65 argie boolits from copper tubing and a junk mold too.
i used their money to buy more tubing.
heck we wrap paper around lead and make that work, i wonder how many people giggled about that at the time?

[Bullshop]

For those that can see no benefit to these type loads I should explain how/why I got started. The two factors that initiated the search for me were#1 cheap milsurp powders with burn rate too slow for most conventional loading applications, and #2 loading very large volume cases like 45/120 and 50,90, 50/140 that were intended for black powder but not having access to BP.
The problem you run into with the large straight cases is that with a smokless powder of the correct burn rate you gennerally end up with lots of volume left in the cast. If you use powders that will fill the case and still stay within normal pressure you end up with lots of unburned powder left behind. The whole idea for me was not to increase velocity or enhance burn charicteristics but just simply to push the unburned powder out of the barrel so the next round can be loaded without wiping the barrel. By shooting over snow you can see the powder is still not being burned but just being blow clear.
I must admit that after I was successful with the idea with the large cases my work extended to bottle necks as seen in the target fired with the 30/06. The reason was still economy. I was getting 8# jugs from Bartletts of very slow cource grain powder for $30.00. The idea was to figure a way to shoot the cheap powder but to make it work as well as the more expensive. I think I can say I did that.
I guess I made my point so I will shuddup now. Sorry to harp on !
BIC/BS

[rbuck351]

My reason for trying the duplex loads is because I'm cheap. A friend died and I ended up getting 24lbs of H116 and 25lbs of what appears to be 5010 from his estate for nothing. You can say what you want , but I'm not throwing 50lbs of powder in the yard as fertilizer. After trying the powders in my 22H, I found the H116 to work well with a case full. The big fat stick powder ended up being way to slow, as was expected. After more trials, It proved to be slower than any of my current powders including 4831. So, now what to do with 25lbs of a really slow powder that won't work in anything I shoot. After reading several other peoples experience with 5010 and duplex loads ( thanks Bullshop and others) I decided to see if it would work in my 358Norma. Although testing is not complete, a booster charge of AA9 and the rest of the case full of 5010? is showing good results. It's working very well in the 35Rem also with no pressure signs in either gun. There are people that should not do these kinds of things or play with matches or even get out of bed in the morning. It's just too dangerous!!!

[qajaq59]

There are people that should not do these kinds of things or play with matches or even get out of bed in the morning. It's just too dangerous!!! Yes, and there are also people that like to jay walk and end up getting run over by cement trucks!

But I'm not about to tell you not to do what you want. Just be careful and don't get hurt.

[Bullshop]

rbuck351
I was recently loading some 5010 in the 50/90 Sharps and using h-108 as a kicker. I think h-108 and AA #9 are about the same powder. I was trying to find a load gentle enough to give me about 1400 fps with the very soft pure lead boolits I was using. The H- 108 was maybe a bit too fas a start for the soft boolits so I went to a new powder my lovely wife brought home for me, Bless her heart.
She somewhere found an 8# keg of Alliant Reloader #10. Bingo!!! Just enough slower to give the soft boolits a more gentle start so they are nicely accurate at 100 yards.
This is not intended for target work but for hunting. We all know how nice pure lead works at BP type velocities. I plan to do more testing with the Re#10 but for now think I have a new favorite kicker powder.
Blessings
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

I had 8 pounds of 5010 and shot most of it up in my 8x56R M95 when I had it...as was. I didn't use a booster. Also loaded it in quite a few other rounds. It wasn't the best powder, but far from worthless.

I have just recently tried my 860 powder with a booster in my Swede. It's okay straight, but then I tried 5 grains of 4227 for a booster. It started shooting more like a cleaner faster rifle powder. The groups were all bottom of Coke can, but not what I was looking for. Definitely serviceable for deer hunting and the velocity was right up there at 2500 fps.

I think the original post of using 25 grains or so of 4895 then loading the rest of the 860 is really a waste of both powders and not as safe practice as a fast pistol powder booster. Some, which have, may misconstrue this as an unsafe practice. In a sense magnum primers are like these booster, but not to the same extent.

Joe