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txpete
01-31-2006, 09:17 PM
I have a 1891 argie that has been cut down some time in its past.thinking of a re-barrel project on this action.any ideas cal? ect
thanks
pete

KCSO
01-31-2006, 10:10 PM
I had one that had a Douglas barrel in 7 mm mauser. No changes needed for the bolt face and it fed perfect. You might shop Gun Parts for a small ring bbl or try Midway for an Adams and Bennet. I think that 257 roberts would be another good choice. I would not go with a 308 just on the off chance that someone might slip in a high pressure round. I haven't tried it yet, but 35 Remington comes to mind as a super cast bullet round for that action.

45 2.1
01-31-2006, 10:44 PM
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 7.65 mauser as it is. That rifle would make a nice carbine or sporter. Try it out, that cartridge is VERY cast friendly.

txpete
01-31-2006, 11:44 PM
who makes a reciever sight for the 91 action.I think thats where I am going to start.is it the same as a 98 action??kind of ready to get a start on this :)
pete

Frank46
02-01-2006, 01:41 AM
Pete, both lyman and williams make the rear sight. If lyman you want a 57sme. Springfield,mauser,enfield thats what the sme stands for. Or if you want a real classy rear sight try to locate the same sight by lyman made in steel. They look way better than the current lyman junk. You can rebarrel to 35 rem, 300 savage, 7mm mauser and a few others.
I also second the motion about the 308 ctg in the argie. Way too hot for that action. Frank

txpete
02-01-2006, 08:27 AM
thanks guys where would I start to find barrel if I decide to go that way with this project??
the 300 sav/35 rem would be interesting.
thanks
pete

ammohead
02-01-2006, 09:04 AM
Pete,

If you are doing it yourself then look at www.midwayusa.com. If you want someone else to do it, then do a search on E R Shaw. They do a good job for a great price.

ammohead

KCSO
02-01-2006, 10:25 AM
I have had a 300 Savage in a Jap rifle and although they can be made to shoot they are not really an ideal cast bullet rifle. The short neck means for most bullets you are seating down into the powder, which requires a hard lube and some carefull reloading. The magazine needs to be blocked to get the best feeding and that is extra work, if you can devise a good block for the straight line magazine. The closer you stay to the original ctg leangth the better. I would have suggested the 7.65 but I haven't seen any cheap barrels for that round in a long time, whereas GPC has 8 mm barrels for 20 bucks and new 257 roberts bls for $113.00. I know De Hass recommended the 257 as an alternate caliber for the 91.

Urny
02-01-2006, 03:39 PM
For some years I shot a '91 with a Flaig's Ace heavy barrel in .308, cast loads only. The rifle went to a friend, and he had it rebarreled with a GPC .45 ACP 20" heavy barrel. Makes a much better plinker in .45 ACP than in .308, quiet and little recoil. The gunsmith who removed the old barrel cut a relief groove ahead of the threads to ease his path and so friend David returned the old barrel to me. There's enough meat left to make 7.62x39 or .300 Savage if anyone is interested in doing so. I'm not; I like my '91's in the original caliber. If you like to fire military loads in 7.65mm Mauser, it's not all that low pressure a round.

For fans of the Argentine Mausers, Colin Websters' book Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1959 is a worthwhile investment.

StarMetal
02-01-2006, 04:14 PM
It's a gunsmith trick to cut a relief cut like that, but I'd say he was lazy or not a great gunsmith. Being that old military rifle had already been rebarreled and not long ago, that Flaig barrel should have come out alot easier then the original military barrel. He ruined it in my opinion and had it been my rifle I'd said something about it.

Joe

Larry Gibson
02-01-2006, 04:29 PM
I have a 1891 argie that has been cut down some time in its past.thinking of a re-barrel project on this action.any ideas cal? ect
thanks
pete


I rebarreled one to .35 Rem using the prethreaded/short chambered 26" Shilen barrel from Brownells before I got wrapped up in my last excursion to the Middle East. It has a Lyman 57SME on it and an M14 front sight. It is still short chambered as I hadn't found a finish reamer (anyone got one I can borrow/rent?) when I put it together. So I shortened a FL die about .01" and formed 20 cases to fit the "short" chamber to test fire. It works and shoots fine. Feeding was fine with the longer nosed rifle bullets but with short pistol bullets I had to epoxy a thin cartridge guide on each side of the magazine well to hold the cartridges to the rear of the magazine. It wasn't hard to do and now the short OAL SWC loaded cartridges feed fine also. The barrels come prethreaded for M93/M95 Mausers and it is the correct thread for the M91s. You have to turn some off the barrel shoulder to lengthen the barrel shank for a correct fit. Not hard to do at all.

The barrels are a little spendy but the quality is there. Maybe too spendy for some considering it's a M91 but I have one other option. If it doesn't work out in .35 Rem I will shorten a .35 Whelen die to use 8x57 cases and basically make a .35x57 (very close to the 9x57). I can then run a .35 Whelen finish reamer into the barrel to chamber and headspace it on the formed cases. Loading this larger volume .35x57 case to .358 Win velocity will in essence keep the pressure down into the M91s limitations. It should make a dandy hunting riflewith either cast or jacketed bullets. It should still be an excellent cast bullet plinking/small game rifle also. Besides that, with the cut down military stock, the longer 26" barrel and reciever soghts it looks like an old classic rifle. I expect to have a lot of fun shooting with mine.

Larry Gibson

txpete
02-01-2006, 08:55 PM
thanks guys for all the info.got my argie dies ordered and should be in mon.I am going to try the orginal barrel first.if it shoots good I will stick with it for now.if not I will look into a new barrel.this will be my first mauser project so all the info above has been a big help and can't thank y'all enough for taking the time to help out.
best
pete

floodgate
02-02-2006, 12:03 AM
Larry:

Glad you're back home safe! Thanks from us "stay-at-homes"!

"a .35x57 (very close to the 9x57)." Reminds me of something I spotted in some industrial specs. a while back. Something - I think it was lead/acid battery plate filler material - specified in "grams per cubic inch"

floodgate

txpete
02-02-2006, 12:29 AM
I also want to say welcome back.I got a letter a few months back from DA asking about going back on active duty...and how they needed certain mos. no way to old and beat up this time.
pete

Frank46
02-02-2006, 03:20 AM
Txpete, been looking for a decent argie for quite some time. If the origional bbl is good try lyman #314299. Should work great in that long throat. Been buying parts when able and am the owner of two actions,three stocks and handful of parts. Lotsa luck. Frank

Bret4207
02-03-2006, 09:18 AM
I'm sure you thought of this but I'll toss it in anyway. A bunch of the old military barrels have had decades of neglect. Copper fouling, corrosive primer residue and plain ol' dirt play havoc with the barrel. I plug my barrels and fill from the breech with a solvent and soak it a while before I start cleaning. ATF, Ed's Red, Butchs, WD-40, diesel, Marvel Mystery Oil, whatever- just soak it good. Then I run an old bore brush wrapped with 4/0 steel wool though the barrel a number of times. Keep the steel wool soaked in your solvent. If I'm getting a lot of copper I then soak the barrel with STRONG AMMONIA found at better than average hardwares. This stuff will remove the copper, but it will also allegedly eat steel, so I only soak for 1/2 -3/4 hour and then scrub with the steel wool, followed by a lot of rinsing with mineral spirits or diesel. By this time you should be seeing what rifling there is. Now start with your standard cleaning solvents like Gun Scrubber and Hoppes. In fact- bathe yourself in Hoppes just 'cuz it smells so darn good! A bit of JB paste on a patch will help shine things up inside. I'm told auto body rubbing compound is about the same and costs about 1% of what the JB sells for. One can should last several generations of shooters. Check your muzzle for gouges, tears, chips and wear. Recrown or even recess the muzzle to get to good rifling if needed. The throat you can work around by seating a long boolit a long way out. Once shes clean comes the shooting.

I bought a M-95 Steyr a few years back, mainly 'cuz I was intrigued by the straight pull action. (Plus it's even handier than a 92 or 94 Winchester in the woods, already has a nice thumb saftey, and shoots a 245 gr boolit at 2000 fps) The Sterys barrels was rust coated and I thought it was ruined. It looked like a wood rasp in there. I soaked it and scrubbed it and repeated the job 2 or 3 times. Lo and behold there was nice deep rifling under the rust. Pits? Yup, them too. Some work with the 4/0 wool and some JB paste smoothed things out. I ran a patch soaked in Lee Liquid Frog Snot through the bore prior to shooting. After I let it dry I pushed a clean patch through. The Frog Snot seemed to fill the pits. Shooting the NEI 331-245 resulted in nice round 2" groups with the factory sights and a half blind shooter.

All that was to say- Don't resolve yourself to a rebarrel until you work the present one over a bit. If you have access to a Fat 30 Group buy mould try 13.0 Red Dot with the boolit seated to the rifling. My '91 Argie likes that fine and makes 1 1/4" groups at 75 yards. It's the only load I've tried so far but it works fine. Also see if you can find Ken Waters Handloader article on the 7.65 Mauser. Like the 8mm it's completely underloaded and untested by American shooters.

Larry Gibson
02-03-2006, 04:42 PM
floodgate and txpete

Thanks for the welcome homes, it is really good to be back home. I keep telling the Army I'm too old for this crap, got 15 months left then I'll be a shooter full time!

"a .35x57 (very close to the 9x57)." Reminds me of something I spotted in some industrial specs. a while back. Something - I think it was lead/acid battery plate filler material - specified in "grams per cubic inch"

Guess that's the nifty thing about wild cats - you can come up with some pretty nonsensical names. However, the .35x57 (short chambered .35 Whelen) is a very good cartridge for these SR Mausers. It feeds as slick as the original cartridges for these actions. It is a good hunting cartridge with both cast and jacketed bullets. A standard set of .35 Whelen dies is is all that's required to load (ne expensive custom dies needed) as they just need to be shortened. Brass is easly formed out of 8x57 brass with one pass through the FL die. Or '06 brass can be used if you don't mind the trimming. Loading data is easy, just use .358 Winchester data and pressures will be ok because of the larger case capacity of the .35x57. The one I made for a friend some years ago is quite accurate. It was built on a M95 action and he loves it.

As mentioned though, if that 7.65 Argie barrel is not pitted it makes a fine cast bullet cartridge also. I have three of them to feed.

Larry Gibson

txpete
02-03-2006, 07:49 PM
larry I hope your 15 months go by fast.I retired in 94 and still can't wipe the smile off my face.
I am waiting on the brown truck for the 7.65X53 dies as I am typing this.I have a bag of once fired 270 and 30-06 brass to convert for the argie.I have some 185 gr lee's sized .314.after cleaning the barrel I think it might be alright for cast.
I am missing the slider for the rear sight..anyone have a extra???.this is going to be a fun project and give a break from shooting those mosin nagants :) .
I have alot of brass different cals to trade for a rear sight slider if someone has one.
thanks
pete

StarMetal
02-03-2006, 07:56 PM
txpete,

Springfield Sporters has the rear sight part. Here's the website page of that part.

http://ssporters.com/parts/91%20ARGENTINE%20MAUSER.htm

Joe

txpete
02-04-2006, 12:40 AM
well damn guys need some help..
ran the 30-06 dies thru the new rcbs 7.65X53 dies trimmed to proper lenth and the brass won't chamber when I made up a dummy round.any idea's??
pete

StarMetal
02-04-2006, 12:47 AM
What brand dies did you buy? You said you made up a dummy round, what was the bullet sized too? Those 06 cases will me a tad thicker in the necks they 7.65 and if you got a fat bullet like .314 it may be a tight fit if you have a tight chamber. You sure you trimmed the cases to the proper lenght? If they are too long they won't chamber. If you got Lee dies I've seen where they don't size 06 to other calibers well. Let us know.

Joe

txpete
02-04-2006, 12:51 AM
I was thinking the .314 might be to fat so made another dummy with a rem 180 gr jacketed .310 same deal wont chamber hmmm.I was using the rcbs dies and check the lenth its spot on.???
pete

Frank46
02-04-2006, 03:03 AM
txpete, I used 8mm brass to make 7.65 argie cases. But ran a forster neck reamer down the neck. Never had any problems. In your case i would guess that sizing down '06 or 270 cases you'd be down to where the thicker part of the parent case is now the shoulder of the 7.65 case. I'd say neck reaming would end your problem. If you can get some try 8mm cases by remington they's only 4mm longer and easier to trim. And the neck of the 8mm case may not be too thick when sized down to 7.65. If you need a slider pm me with your address as I have a spare that came off a bubba'd 1891 rifle. I'll send you the whole leaf sight. Just punch out the pin and install the other one. Frank

StarMetal
02-04-2006, 03:06 AM
I don't think he's having a too thick neck problem. I never had with 06 brass, but his chamber may be tighter, I doubt it, but maybe. I think his die isn't sizing the brass down enough. Lees are notorious for that when sizing 06 down to something else, but he has RCBS.

Black marker up one of your cases with a marker pen and chamber it empty and see where it rubs off the ink. Put it in the chamber with your fingers rather then try to feed it out of the magazine and let us know what you find.

8mm brass is a better way to go.

Joe

Frank46
02-04-2006, 03:32 AM
Joe, thats what I'm using is rcbs dies. The lee dies in 375 win puts a nice scratch on the case when f/l sizing. Only reason I have them is that they were little used and Cheeeep.
Pete may also be getting some springback sizing the thicker brass, yep 8mm brass is definitely in order. Frank

45 2.1
02-04-2006, 08:02 AM
well damn guys need some help..
ran the 30-06 dies thru the new rcbs 7.65X53 dies trimmed to proper lenth and the brass won't chamber when I made up a dummy round.any idea's??
pete

See if a sized case fits, if it doesn't ,turn the die down where it bumps over center on the press ram and try again.

txpete
02-04-2006, 09:23 AM
well guys I have tried all the above and even the 8mm is a no go.I wonder has some in the past has rechambered this thing in the past?? at a loss here.the 8mm brass sure was a lot less trimming :) .I also tried 25-06 and a 270 brass.
pete

Urny
02-04-2006, 09:30 AM
This may be a long shot, but it couldn't hurt to try. Been playing with a friend's Turk Commission rifle that wouldn't chamber a round, trying all the little tricks. The chamber looks to have been cut with a dull hand drill, with brass specks visible at the shoulder neck junction, so naturally that was where we concentrated our efforts. No joy from that. The bolt was binding a bit, so I backed the rear action screw all the way out. End of problem, at least that problem. It's hard to imagine an action binding so badly that the chamber and bolt are pulled too far out of alignment to allow a cartridge to seat, but unless some other solution appears, I'll take it that that is what is happening. A bushing for the rear screw and some glass bedding to fill the resulting gaps will come shortly.

Joe, my idea concerning the barrel removal sort of mirror yours, but the job wasn't done for me so there was little I could say. So far every barrel I am aware of that this guy has removed from a military rifle has come off this way. The only reasonable alternative in the wilds of Northeastern Nevada is DIY, and it looks like the course to take.

Welcome home, Larry Gibson. Our thanks, admiration and prayers for you and your comrades.

StarMetal
02-04-2006, 11:48 AM
texpete,

Time to play hard ball. I'd slug the barrel and see what it comes out as. If it's .308 it's definately been rebarreled because no Argentine I ever saw had a bore/groove that tight. I'd take a chamber cast if you could. How far from being closed is the bolt when you try to chamber a round? Try this too, take a 308 case and size it down. If you don't have a 308 die size it down in that 7.65 die you bought but without the expander ball in it. Then just for curiosity try chambering it and see if it goes. If it does then it's not the action screws binding the bolt. Report back.

Hang in there, with all of our heads together we'll figure it out.

Joe

StarMetal
02-04-2006, 11:54 AM
Frank,

Lee dies have that oil relief hole in them and most all of them scratch your brass in that area especially in sizing down 06 cases to something else. I believe I'm going to quit buying Lee dies and go back to Redding.

Joe

txpete
02-04-2006, 12:24 PM
well guys this has been fun but...
talked to a bud this morning and he wants it and told him if he paid what I have in it its his.he has access to a machine shop and plans on making a true custom out of it.
I will just hunt around some for a good one thats all orginal.
I can't thank y'all for all the help and info I recieved on this rifle.
best
pete

StarMetal
02-04-2006, 12:54 PM
Gosh texpete, it may be something really simple and Argies don't come by often, they are getting scares.

Joe

txpete
02-04-2006, 01:32 PM
I know what you mean as I have been looking along time when I ran into this one.that said I have a lead on a guy that has one that has been in his closet for years.I am going to give him a call monday.
pete

Larry Gibson
02-04-2006, 02:41 PM
well damn guys need some help..
ran the 30-06 dies thru the new rcbs 7.65X53 dies trimmed to proper lenth and the brass won't chamber when I made up a dummy round.any idea's??
pete

Pete

Bet you a dollar to a donut your RCBS dies are for the 7.65 Belgian. It is a common myth that the 7.65 Belgian and the 7.65 Argentine are "interchangeable". They are not as you have just found out. I have found that Belgian 7.65s have about .010" more headspace than the Argentine and the Belgian bores generally run .314-.316 where the Argentines run .311-.312.

A simple fix is to grid off or turn off with a lathe just enough off the bottom of your FL die so a sized case just chambers. This will give you a "custom" FL die that sets the case headspace to match the headspace of your chamber. Don't forget to slightly camfer and polish the inside lip of the FL die where you turned it off or it might scrape the case when sizing. I have "adjusted" several RCBS 7.65 FL dies for several fellow M91 shooters in this manner and it is not a difficult thing to do. The seating die needs no modification.

Larry Gibson

StarMetal
02-04-2006, 03:42 PM
The RCBS number for the 7.65x53 Belgium are 14301 for the full length resizing set. On RCBS's website they don't list a die for the Argentine version, but if you go to Midway everything is listed as the Argentine even if you click on the Belgium dies. Interesting RCBS is listed in the Argentine dies, but not in the Belgium on Midways site.

Is it possible you can return your dies for the proper ones? If you can I'd get the Hornadys because they are mid price and are a good die. Redding are too expensive and Lee's suck.

Either way you look at it you're going to need dies whether you keep that rifle or buy another one.

Joe

txpete
02-04-2006, 06:46 PM
you guys nailed it.I called midway and talked to customer service and when they recieve the dies back I'll get a refund + shipping.I copied this and read it to the person on the phone and she said that they will research and make the changes to it doesn't happen again.the argie left this morning but went to a good home :) .
pete

Frank46
02-05-2006, 02:39 AM
Pete, try looking at the auction arms site, there is usually a few 1891 argies there, but they ain't cheep. i've seen bubbas and origionals that have not been messed with. Empire arms may also have either the peruvian or the argentine models. Shotgun news just did an article on the 1891's. I got my first argie right around the time JFK was assinated, shot out the bbl. Now am looking for another. So you could say that I have come full circle. Frank

Frank46
02-05-2006, 02:42 AM
URNY, norma used to have a load for the 91 mauser that they listed as 2900 feet per second. They made no distinction as to wether or not it was to be fired in the 91 or 09 argentine mausers. Think it was a 150 gr j word bullet for that loading. Frank

Urny
02-05-2006, 09:29 PM
The second big disappointment I received on buying my first chronograph came from testing some Norma 7.65 factory loads. It was rated a just about 2900 fps, but from my almost new 29" barrel, it barely broke 2700. All the writers claim that Norma data is never exagerated. Hmm. Maybe that's why they needn't discriminate between '91 and '09. Nevertheless, the military spire points are pretty stout and were used in both. These days, I wouldn't shoot that stuff, commercial or military, in a '91, real boolits are so much better.

StarMetal
02-05-2006, 11:21 PM
When I had my very first 91 Cavalry carbine back in the 70's I had bought some original military ball in stripper clips. I'd have to say that carbine with that ammo was one of the worse recoiling rifles I've ever shot, especially with that steel buttplate and light weight.

Joe

Larry Gibson
02-07-2006, 08:35 PM
StarMetal

"When I had my very first 91 Cavalry carbine back in the 70's I had bought some original military ball in stripper clips. I'd have to say that carbine with that ammo was one of the worse recoiling rifles I've ever shot, especially with that steel buttplate and light weight."

Hell, that carbine was made back when rifles were rifles, men were men and woman were glad of it! Not like us these days. They had much better eyes back then to see those iddy biddy sights. Nice thing about the rifles vs the carbines are the weight and the longer sight radius, Lord knows I need both these days. LOLs!!!

Larry Gibson

Frank46
02-08-2006, 02:34 AM
Joe, used to go to a small gun shop back in new york. He had cases of different 7.65 ammo.
Think at the time it was about $10 bucks for a hundred rounds. The stuff I was using was dated 1946 and had FFAAMP or something similar. Later found out it was for both rifle and machinegun use. And then there were the steel jacketed rounds that were armor piercing rounds. I shot a lot of the former ammo as it was so cheap. The AP stuff was not allowed at our range. Think I still might have one or two of the 1946 era rounds. Frank

StarMetal
02-08-2006, 10:32 AM
Frank,

I think the stuff I had was marked 1947 and had the same headstamp, but I took some apart and it was definately brass jacketed with lead core. It's was just hot stuff was all.

Once at a gunshow I picked up a whole coffeecan full of the same kind of pulled bullets. I had fun shooting those up. Now that I think about it I must have shot that rifle alot.

Another thing, back then Hornady made bullets for it that where the right size. Whatever size the bullet Hornady makes now, I forget, back then it was .001 bigger. I think it was .313. I know Speer made theirs .001 or more smaller then Hornady, and then one day Hornady cut their size back, probably for legal purposes.

Joe

Frank46
02-09-2006, 02:44 AM
Joe, think you are right. I still have a box of 150gr norma bullets and Hornady makes their .303-7.65 bullets in .312 diameter. Both 150 & 175 (crs again) weight. Yeah that 7.65 mil surp stuff was hot. And the steel buttplate let you know it with each shot. Frank

StarMetal
02-09-2006, 12:05 PM
Frank

I talked to Hornady about that one day and they told me it was a legal move...too many old 91's out there.

Joe

Frank46
02-10-2006, 02:20 AM
Joe, probably a good move on their part as it would really be problems putting a .313 dia bullet doen a ..311 bore. The bore dimensions on those old rifles could vary quite a bit as you well know. Still the old norma loading at the time was pretty stiff stuff but I never heard of one coming apart. Those days it was one of three options. shoot the mil surp stuff, shoot the norma and then reload the empty cases. Best fun I had with one was pulling the 146gr bullet out of the mil surp stuff and replacing it with remington's 100 grainer for the 32-20. First shot the bullet blew up with a cloud of smoke. The range officer was a friend and he had to try it. Not one bullet made it to the target. Only had about 20 rounds so loaded. Frank

StarMetal
02-10-2006, 08:49 AM
Frank,

I knew a guy up in Ohio that pulled 30 Luger FMJ's and loaded them in a 30-06 Springfield and hunted groundhogs with them. Let me tell you when he shot a groundhog that there wasn't nothing more then a bloodly pelt left. Apparently those 90 gr bullets were thick jacketed as they didn't disintergrate in the air.

Joe

Frank46
02-11-2006, 04:48 AM
Joe, don't let carpetman hear you. That'll give him ideas. I had a buddy who hunted groundhogs with a 30-06 and 125 gr sierras. One good hit and he said all you saw was a red mist. Frank

Huffmanite
02-20-2006, 12:07 PM
Had my 1891 argentine rebarreled to 257Roberts recently with adams bennet barrel. Could have gone 6.5X55 Swedish. Cost for rebarrel by Mark Skaggs in Oregon was $150 plus shipping. Price includes barrel, rebarrel action, chamber, crown for this price. Has ad on Ebay. Email is casesc45@aol.com site is www.skaggsgunsmithing.com