Heavy Weight Boolit Casting Problems!

[R.Clem]

Bought a new Lyman 457132, 535gr mold for my Sharps repro 45-70 a couple of months back. To date it has yet to cast a good boolit, they all come out deformed in one way or the other, frosted on side opposite the sprue plate bolt, and not filled out in that area, wrinkled (we all know why this would happen, but this is with a hot mold and 700 degree WW), non uniform base (mold not filling up completely). I have had the mold so hot that the pour had to sit for five minutes or more to cool to see if it would fill on that side, it did, but the boolit was all crystallized as expected. Continued to cast in the over heated mold, but it never did cast a good boolit as it cooled. Have checked and cleaned the mold, sooted it up, sprayed it with mold release, coated it with mold prep, tried stove black, and WD-40.
Now, this is serious, I cast in my JIM459545C1 from Buffalo Arms in 545gr, made with Saeco blocks and all is well. Same pot of lead, same temperature, same bottom pour as with the Lyman, same day.
All suggestions will be put to the test the next time I cast.

Lee Pro 4-20 melter
wheel weights, with stick ons removed, (use them for my 1858 Remington New Model Army)
700 degrees, according to Lyman thermometer
bottom pour all bullets.

This is crazy, been casting my own for 30 + years, this is a first for me.

[John Boy]

RC, might recommend several items:
1. Take a razor blade and clean the vent lines out good
2. Add 1 or 2% Sn to your WW melt
3. Cast the bullets using this method ... http://www.longrangebpcr.com/8Phases.htm

[Southern Son]

+1 on what John said. I have the same mould, first iron mould I bought and the vent lines were very faint. I gave them the once through with a scribe. I have only ever used 20/1 Pb/Sn in mine and with that mix I needed 775 degrees for a good boolit.

[44man]

Too hot is as bad as too cold. You can open the vent lines a tad, might help but I have never seen a reason to unless there are none to be seen. Make sure you take a smooth file and just break the top inner edges of the blocks, just like you were de-burring them. All you should see with the blocks closed is a faint vent line.
But your biggest problem is trying to bottom pour those big boolits. Use a ladle and do the normal seating of the ladle in the sprue plate and roll the mold vertical.
Now the big secret is to leave it connected long enough for the shrinking boolit TO PULL LEAD FROM THE LADLE, not from a sprue. When you tip the ladle off and leave a nice sprue, you will know you have it right if the center of the sprue does not get sucked into the boolit as it cools. It should only have a tiny dip in the center, only from sprue shrinkage.
If you look into the ladle, you will actually see the level go down as the mold is filled, stop and then go down some more. That is the point you can roll off the ladle, NOT BEFORE.
Never depend on a cooling sprue to feed a boolit. Your ladle has nice molten lead in it that the boolit wants! ;)
For WW metal, turn the pot up to 750* and try it. Pre-heat the mold to 500* and the very first boolit will be perfect. Maintain a pace so the mold does not get too hot or cool down too much. You have to learn to relax and not hurry your casting, yet you can't walk away to make coffee between boolits either.
I do, however, step out the garage door to pee without losing a boolit. :bigsmyl2:

[BruceB]

Hey, y'all;

For a long time now, I've read of the troubles many of us have with casting the beeeg boolits.

I don't get it. I just DON'T GET IT.

On reading this thread, I went out to my shed a few minutes ago and test-weighed some bullets....something I rarely do, because it's a waste of my time. From a 2-cavity NEI aluminum mould, ten of my un-inspected 421-390 (.404) bullets exhibited an extreme spread of 1.3 grains on an average weight of 395.1 grains.

Ten 457406 bullets from a Lyman single-cavity mould had an extreme spread of 1.8 grains on an average of 500.3 grains....LUBED AND GAS-CHECKED. Lubing and fitting checks increases the possible weight variation, of course, but not by very danged much in this case.

I took no special pains in casting these fellers, running the pot at 870 degrees and casting as fast as I could, just as I do for lighter bullets. They are straight wheelweight alloy, and bottom-poured from an RCBS furnace.. There are no shrunken areas, no rounded bands, no flaws to affect the shooting, in other words.

My first impulse is to say, "Turn up the heat! Turn it WAY up, and see what happens." In fact, turn it up as high as your pot will go, and see what happens. May not work, but worth a try, hmmm?

When casting about 99% of my bullets, I allow the alloy a free fall of about 3/4" from the spout to the sprue plate. I've never seen any hesitation or variation in the flow/fill rate, and I think the consistency of the bullets speaks to the effectiveness of the method.

BTW, the production rate for those .404 bullets is over 400 per hour, and the quality of the finished product is just fine, thanks.

As I said, I just don't get it...

[BruceB]

One quick addendum here:

It may well be that casting as hot as I do gives me good bullets because the alloy stays liquid in the mould for a longer period of time, allowing better fill-out than cooler temps might.

The sprue definitely shows the draw-down dimple, and there are no internal voids, as shown by the weight uniformity. Therefore, I must conclude that the sprue is feeding the bullet as it sets-up, but probably this only happens at higher temps.

[SharpsShooter]

I took no special pains in casting these fellers, running the pot at 870 degrees and casting as fast as I could, just as I do for lighter bullets. They are straight wheelweight alloy, and bottom-poured from an RCBS furnace.. There are no shrunken areas, no rounded bands, no flaws to affect the shooting, in other words.

My first impulse is to say, "Turn up the heat! Turn it WAY up, and see what happens." In fact, turn it up as high as your pot will go, and see what happens. May not work, but worth a try, hmmm?

When casting about 99% of my bullets, I allow the alloy a free fall of about 3/4" from the spout to the sprue plate. I've never seen any hesitation or variation in the flow/fill rate, and I think the consistency of the bullets speaks to the effectiveness of the method.

As I said, I just don't get it...

I'm of the same mindset. I cast 457125 (530gr) of 20:1 from a bottom pour set at 750* with zero problems. I cycle 4 boolits a minute and weight variations of more than 1.5 grs are rare. The frost wipes off with a paper towel if it bugs you too much.

SS

[44man]

One quick addendum here:

It may well be that casting as hot as I do gives me good bullets because the alloy stays liquid in the mould for a longer period of time, allowing better fill-out than cooler temps might.

The sprue definitely shows the draw-down dimple, and there are no internal voids, as shown by the weight uniformity. Therefore, I must conclude that the sprue is feeding the bullet as it sets-up, but probably this only happens at higher temps.
Might work for you but the flow must be perfect from the bottom spout too, something you know how to control. The temp must be perfect for each mold and the learning curve is high. One tiny piece of slag in the spout will put you to work.
If your boolit cools faster then the sprue and there is molten lead in the sprue until the boolit is filled, I see no problem.
A ladle is just SOOOOO easy!
You have to admit that not every mold will give good boolits from the bottom spout. I have a few, others just will not work.
You are an expert with the bottom pour and I am one with a ladle, my way is easier to teach! :drinks:

[southpaw]

I was haveing trouble with my 420gr 4570 mold filling out. I was useing a lee bottom pour and things just did not work out very well. I switched to the laddle and just like that the problems went away.

Thanks 44man for the step by step on the laddle method. I wasnt letting the mold suck in the lead before removeing the laddle but i will now.

[warf73]

I've got the same mold (single cavety) and to get good boolit fillout I add 2% tin to my pure WW alloy and ran the pot in the 850~900* range. After only a few casting I get good boolits. I did run them cooler at around 750* like alot of my other iron molds and got wrinkles, I kept adding the heat till I found the happy temp which was 850+. Also once the mold got to the point were I had to wait longer than 5 sec (give or take) for the spure to solidafy I let the mold cool back down.

Maybe this help.

Warf

[rhbrink]

My .02 cents worth- get rid of the bottom pour, only thing I have found it's good for is making crappie jigs and it ain't the best for that! Turn the heat up and monitor with a good thermometer, get a RCBS dipper much better that Lyman. If thats a Lyman mold good luck you'll need it.

[BruceB]

rhbrink: "My .02 cents worth- get rid of the bottom pour, only thing I have found it's good for is making crappie jigs and it ain't the best for that!"

I DO like a man who is not afraid to step right up and voice his opinion!

Classic case here of widely different positions. Personally, I wouldn't go back to ladle casting if I was being paid to do it. Bottom-pouring is second-nature to me now, after some decades, and it gives me excellent results (if'n I DO say-so myself).

I was pleased to see that Warf's higher-temp casting solved his problem with the same bullet design. I don't own that exact mould, but I believe that my experience with the 500-grainer is a fair approximation. In years past, I made RCBS .50-caliber bullets which weighed in the 565 range, also bottom-poured at 870 degrees, also straight WW, also with VERY minimal weight variation on the order of a grain or two, extreme spread. On a 565-grain bullet, that is VERY good.

Just try one high-temp run. You may want to quick-cool the sprue AFTER everything sets-up, to save a lot of time.

[Bret4207]

Might work for you but the flow must be perfect from the bottom spout too, something you know how to control. The temp must be perfect for each mold and the learning curve is high. One tiny piece of slag in the spout will put you to work.
If your boolit cools faster then the sprue and there is molten lead in the sprue until the boolit is filled, I see no problem.
A ladle is just SOOOOO easy!
You have to admit that not every mold will give good boolits from the bottom spout. I have a few, others just will not work.
You are an expert with the bottom pour and I am one with a ladle, my way is easier to teach! :drinks:

I may not agree with everything you say 44, but I sure do on that part!!!:drinks:

[BruceB]

I may not agree with everything you say 44, but I sure do on that part!!!:drinks:

Dang it, guys.

I'm NOT trying to be argumentative here, but I just can't let some of this stuff pass.

No, I do NOT "have to admit that every mold will not give good boolits from the bottom spout." Right now, I have something over seventy moulds taking up space in my shed. Add in the ones that have come and gone over the years, and I'd say that well over 100 wildly-assorted moulds have passed through my hands.

I have iron and aluminum, single-cavity to four-cavity, .22 to .45, brand-new to over fifty years of age, Lees, NEIs, LBTs, RCBS, Lymans, Saecos, Hoch-made, you name it.

They all have this in common: from each and every one of them, I get very good bullets without any particular trouble by BOTTOM POURING. Moulds definitely have personalities, and some require slightly-different approaches for best results, but mine perform just fine when fed from the spout and not the ladle. I don't even OWN a ladle, and haven't for at least thirty years. I have no plans to change that state of affairs.

Perhaps our definitions of "good boolits" are different, but for the shooting I do, in the guns that I own, my bullets do indeed qualify as "good". Weight variations are miniscule, and dimensional aberrations are about non-existent (as I would expect, when weights are nearly identical). That constitutes "good", to me....and it's all from bottom-pouring.

What works for you, works for you, and that's great. What works for me, works for me...and it's working very nicely, indeed.

It's too bad we all can't sit down and yak about these things in person. We would have one heck of a good time. (This is just what happens when we get twenty or thirty casters together at the Nevada Shoot...the discussions are incredible!)

[zampilot]

I have the same mould, same furnace. I found that my best boolits come with ladle pouring at 750-800 degree area, it always takes 10 or so to get rid of the wrinkles. BUT I use 30-1, 20-1 alloy lead and tin only.

[dubber123]

My .02 cents worth- get rid of the bottom pour, only thing I have found it's good for is making crappie jigs and it ain't the best for that! Turn the heat up and monitor with a good thermometer, get a RCBS dipper much better that Lyman. If thats a Lyman mold good luck you'll need it.

I agree wholeheartedly! (just remember to send your bottom pour pot to me!). [smilie=1:

I'm around 75 moulds now, and even have a few bags full of boolits from the same mould thats giving him fits. I always bottom pour. Some moulds can be tempermental with the bottom pour, that can be part of the fun. Fool with heat, and pour VELOCITY, (open or close the spout). I haven't had one beat me yet.

Or, if it's as easy as 44man says, buy a ladle and take the easy way out.... :drinks:

[44man]

I agree wholeheartedly! (just remember to send your bottom pour pot to me!). [smilie=1:

I'm around 75 moulds now, and even have a few bags full of boolits from the same mould thats giving him fits. I always bottom pour. Some moulds can be tempermental with the bottom pour, that can be part of the fun. Fool with heat, and pour VELOCITY, (open or close the spout). I haven't had one beat me yet.

Or, if it's as easy as 44man says, buy a ladle and take the easy way out.... :drinks:
Now you know I am old and lazy! :mrgreen: I HATE casting, sizing and lubing so when I need boolits I want 100 or 200 perfect ones without any rejects. There is just no way I will spend even 3 hours casting let alone days on end. Most times I dump one pot and quit.
My relaxation is shooting and I just can't keep enough boolits made but still dread it when I run out.
Drudge work like cleaning the bathroom, garage or basement so I make it as easy as I can. I would rather gab here then do any work! :drinks:

[beagle]

Outstanding advice here. The problem comes from Lyman using those dinky mould blocks. They overheat and require slower casting. NEIs aluminum blocks and the bigger RCBS blocks don't cause near the trouble as they dissipate heat off the mould blocks faster./beagle

Foll 44man's advice and you'll get good bullets but take it slow./beagle


Too hot is as bad as too cold. You can open the vent lines a tad, might help but I have never seen a reason to unless there are none to be seen. Make sure you take a smooth file and just break the top inner edges of the blocks, just like you were de-burring them. All you should see with the blocks closed is a faint vent line.
But your biggest problem is trying to bottom pour those big boolits. Use a ladle and do the normal seating of the ladle in the sprue plate and roll the mold vertical.
Now the big secret is to leave it connected long enough for the shrinking boolit TO PULL LEAD FROM THE LADLE, not from a sprue. When you tip the ladle off and leave a nice sprue, you will know you have it right if the center of the sprue does not get sucked into the boolit as it cools. It should only have a tiny dip in the center, only from sprue shrinkage.
If you look into the ladle, you will actually see the level go down as the mold is filled, stop and then go down some more. That is the point you can roll off the ladle, NOT BEFORE.
Never depend on a cooling sprue to feed a boolit. Your ladle has nice molten lead in it that the boolit wants! ;)
For WW metal, turn the pot up to 750* and try it. Pre-heat the mold to 500* and the very first boolit will be perfect. Maintain a pace so the mold does not get too hot or cool down too much. You have to learn to relax and not hurry your casting, yet you can't walk away to make coffee between boolits either.
I do, however, step out the garage door to pee without losing a boolit. :bigsmyl2:

[R.Clem]

Thanks guys, I really didn't mean to start such a fuss, but lots of good info and ideas.

From the 50+ year old Ideal 357445 to the new RCBS and Lyman that arrived yesterday, I now have 11, sure doesn't seem like much compared to others, but it is what I need for now.

I bottom poured fifty boolits this morning into the Lyman 457132 mould, most came out good. Jumped the temperature to 800 degrees and worked slower than usual. Came out frosted but most were filled out.

Then I ladle poured another fifty, these came out real frosty but all filled out.

Turned the heat down and added another 5# of WW to cool it off faster, got it down to 675 degrees and started ladling, the next boolits came out bright and shiny, all filled out and weigh within one grain for the 50 I cast.

That's 529.2 to 530.1 grains at 675 degrees ladled, 525.8 to 529.5 at 800 degrees bottom pour, and 528.6 to 529.7 at 800 degrees with frosting ladled.

So all in all I have to say this mold does not like to be bottom poured, so will note to ladle with this mould only.

Thanks again for the help.

[Bret4207]

Dang it, guys.

I'm NOT trying to be argumentative here, but I just can't let some of this stuff pass.

No, I do NOT "have to admit that every mold will not give good boolits from the bottom spout." Right now, I have something over seventy moulds taking up space in my shed. Add in the ones that have come and gone over the years, and I'd say that well over 100 wildly-assorted moulds have passed through my hands.

I have iron and aluminum, single-cavity to four-cavity, .22 to .45, brand-new to over fifty years of age, Lees, NEIs, LBTs, RCBS, Lymans, Saecos, Hoch-made, you name it.

They all have this in common: from each and every one of them, I get very good bullets without any particular trouble by BOTTOM POURING. Moulds definitely have personalities, and some require slightly-different approaches for best results, but mine perform just fine when fed from the spout and not the ladle. I don't even OWN a ladle, and haven't for at least thirty years. I have no plans to change that state of affairs.

Perhaps our definitions of "good boolits" are different, but for the shooting I do, in the guns that I own, my bullets do indeed qualify as "good". Weight variations are miniscule, and dimensional aberrations are about non-existent (as I would expect, when weights are nearly identical). That constitutes "good", to me....and it's all from bottom-pouring.

What works for you, works for you, and that's great. What works for me, works for me...and it's working very nicely, indeed.

It's too bad we all can't sit down and yak about these things in person. We would have one heck of a good time. (This is just what happens when we get twenty or thirty casters together at the Nevada Shoot...the discussions are incredible!)

Uncle Bruce, I'd never disagree with ya, but I will say the ladle is far easier for ME. Could be 'cuz I'm a retard, but it's always worked for me. Maybe if I get this SAECO pot up and running I'll change my mind, but the Lee's left a real bad taste in my mouth.