? for 44 man

[jack19512]

Or anyone else that cares to chime in. I think I have found the reason I have not been able to obtain the accuracy out of my 44 mag that I want. It's serious leading. My son purchased me one of those flexible shaft light things that you put over the face of a small flashlight, thought it was something I might use.

It works quite well. Anyway I had always judged the amount of leading I might be having by how much lead would show on the patches that were run through the bore. I know, not real smart. Last time shooting I came home and after cleaning my 44 mag it dawned on me that I hadn't tried this gizzmo out so I got it out and started looking at the inside of my 44 mag barrel and OH MY Goodness!

I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was bad. There was enough lead inside that barrel to probably make a couple of boolits. After a long time I finally got the barrel cleaned up and went out again to see if accuracy would improve. It didn't. I came home and got the light back out and yep the lead was back.

I know everyone is going to say slug this and slug that but I have already done this and thought I had that part figured out. There must be something I am missing here. I planned on using this gun for deer hunting so have pretty much kept my loads centered around the 310 gr. boolit and 21.5 gr. of 296. I don't know if it matters that much or not but I have used straight ww's water dropped. I checked my 454 Casull and there is no leading with it. Pretty sure the problem isn't undersized boolit. Any ideas?

[mooman76]

Need more info. What did the barrel and cylinders. slug at? What size bullet are you using and lastly where are you seeing the lead? ie is it the whole length of the barrel or what?

[Jack Stanley]

I dunno ........ I never went heavier than the two hundred fifty grain bullets and most of those designs used a gas check . I did however use a whole lot of Bullseye and wadcutters when I could see straight :roll: I know there is a great difference between target wadcutters and buffalo stompers , but there might be something in common too .

With the wadcutters I would try a lot of loads that were accurate but I was always looking for the one I could use a whole thirty caliber ammo can of wadcutters and never get leading . What I learned was , the load I wanted was not always the best target accuracy . They would however stay in the black and menace the ten ring mercylessly .

Since you've alreay slugged the cylinder throats and are sizing to that , what would happen if you changed from 296 to say 2400 or 4227 ? How about change lube or size just a touch over throat diameter say a half a thousanths over ? Maybe try the CFVentures wax sheets . Maybe lapping the forcing cone of the bore might help . I've heard that has helped several "late model 29's" the S&W produced .


Like I say I've never fooled up in the real heavyweights of the forty-four . My "hunting load" is still a cast hollowppoint that uses a gas check and Alox with a stiff charge of twenty-four hundred to kick it along . I don't think I've ever had leading with these gas check bullets even after shooting hundreds of them without cleaning the " late model 29" [smilie=1: ( I musta got one of the odd balls they made in '85 )


I'm sure some of the other guys with experience with the heavies can help ya make it work .

Jack

[jack19512]

Need more info. What did the barrel and cylinders. slug at? What size bullet are you using and lastly where are you seeing the lead? ie is it the whole length of the barrel or what?







Barrel bore was .430 and cylinders were between .4312 and .4316 as best I could measure. Leading looked to be entire length of barrel. I have tried sizing to .429 and .430 and have shot as cast that measure around .434 without being able to obtain any real accuracy.

Funny thing is accuracy wise with my cast boolits I can shoot my new Ruger SRH .454 right off the bat much better at 50 yards than I can my Ruger SBH 44 mag at 25 yards. So far the only lube I have tried has been the LLA. I have two options as far as boolits go, the Lee 310 gr. rf and the Lee 240 gr. swc. and so far have had the best accuracy, if you can call it that, with the 310 gr.

[jack19512]

I should add that I do have the option of using GC's but prefer not to as it adds to the cost of the loaded rounds but also I think I shouldn't have to use them no faster than I am pushing these boolits. These are non GC boolits that I am shooting now not GC boolits without the GC's.

[44man]

I tried LLA and got severe leading with any boolit. That might be the biggest problem. I use Felix lube and some of Lar's lubes with no leading. I even use Felix on the RD 265 gr boolit for super accuracy.
My SBH doesn't seem to care with boolits from .430 to .432.
The next thing you need to check for is a tight spot in the barrel at the barrel threads. You might need to fire lap it.
To tell the truth, I don't like any Alox at all in any form. I still think it burns in the barrel.
Also. if you have shot any jacketed bullets in the past, did you remove ALL the copper?
Clean the bore real good, oil it and slug it to look for a tight spot and get back to us. Then change lube.

[44man]

If your boolit needs gas checks, use them or you make a path for gas leakage.

[Blammer]

change lube, I bet you'll get no leading. :)

[MT Gianni]

I should add that I do have the option of using GC's but prefer not to as it adds to the cost of the loaded rounds but also I think I shouldn't have to use them no faster than I am pushing these boolits. These are non GC boolits that I am shooting now not GC boolits without the GC's.

My Lee 310 FP is a gc based bullet and all I have seen factory are also. Was yours a group buy specially designed with out a check or was it de-horned? I would shoot it with a check and then try a different lube even if you have to pan lube.

[jack19512]

Also. if you have shot any jacketed bullets in the past, did you remove ALL the copper?
Clean the bore real good, oil it and slug it to look for a tight spot and get back to us. Then change lube.




There has been no jacketed bullets shot from this gun. Brand new gun and only had my cast through it. I didn't think about a tight spot in the barrel, don't know exactly the process of checking that but think I can figure it out. I had planned on ordering some of the LsStuff advertised at the bottom of the page, the red was what I was going to try.

Probably just me but I have struggled trying to order from the site. First my e-mail was rejected and I tried again, got through next time and went to order and site says they accept paypal but I just couldn't figure out how to pay with paypal. I guess I'll have to just go the personal check route. I'll be the first to admit there are just some things I am not good at. :(

[jack19512]

Was yours a group buy specially designed with out a check or was it de-horned? I








It was a Lee two cavity and I de-horned one cavity, that way I had the option of GC and no GC. I will try some with the GC and see how they do. If it ever warms up, stops raining, or stops snowing. Today it is raining. :(

[Larry Gibson]

If your boolit needs gas checks, use them or you make a path for gas leakage.

Yours is a classic case of using a GC'd bullet sans GCs.

44man is correct. Use the GCs, especially with the heavy dose of 296. That should cut down most of the leading and will improve accuracy also. If you want to do most of your shooting sans GCs then get a real PB mould for practice bullets and use the GC'd ones for hunting.

If you've a good coat of LLA I'd try it again with the GC'd bullets. If any leading persists then switch to a good lube that filles the lube grooves. I've used Javelina for 40 years in the .44 magnum with complete satisfaction and no leading. LARs has a couple comparable lubes.

Larry Gibson

[lathesmith]

I'm with 44man (and others) on this one: I have yet to find a revolver that is even usable with LLA, much less prefers it. Other good points have been made here--sometimes, just reaming the gas check shank leaves an excessively long bearing surface that may give problems in some guns. I know, I know, guys ream these all the time and the resulting bullet works great for them. But, according to some of our bullet design gurus here, an excessively long bearing surface is a great way to severely lead up a bore in short order.
However, before giving up on what you have, I would try a couple of different lubes first, just to see what happens. You might get lucky and find a combination that works well; then again, you might not. For me 296 has always worked best with GC bullets with a GC installed; in fact, I have had difficulty in the past making any plain-base bullet work well with 296.
lathesmith

[jack19512]

Other good points have been made here--sometimes, just reaming the gas check shank leaves an excessively long bearing surface that may give problems in some guns. But, according to some of our bullet design gurus here, an excessively long bearing surface is a great way to severely lead up a bore in short order.






Another thing I had not thought of. I will switch back to the gas checks and see how it goes. Thanks for the reply's.

[jack19512]

Since I will be gone for the next 8 days I got my order for the red lube ready to mail and I can try it out when I get back and see if I have a lube issue or not.

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree with the others. Get some good lube. I think you should be able to shoot those non gas checked bullets at that velocity if you have a good bore and it may need lapping. where is the majority of the leading. Is it in the first part of the barrel or the end? Unllike others i dont find my best accuracy with the largest bullet i can chamber in a gun. If you dont have a perfect forcing cone you may be damaging your bullets when they enter your barrel. Size your bullets to 431 for that gun it may help. I agree that 110 works best with a gas check but i still dont think at those levels its causing your problem.

[44man]

I have no problems with PB boolits in any of my revolvers, no leading, no accuracy loss, in fact some shoot better then my GC boolits.
What I will not do is to leave a check off a boolit that was made for one.
Even the PB boolit I made for the 45-70 revolver at over 1630 fps is shooting an inch at 100 yd's. No leading at all.
Been getting away from checks because of cost and the more I work with PB boolits the happier I get.
Seems as if with the fall in metal prices, checks should be $2.00 a thousand. :confused:
I sold a bunch of aluminum a few weeks ago and the price dropped from 60 cents to a quarter a pound. Hardly worth my gas to get to the scrap yard. Then they only pay 10 cents a pound for WW's and would not sell me any.

[Three44s]

gotta have a check if it's made for one ........!

LLA:

Some may not like it but I have had EXCELLENT results with LLA ..... and with all three of my .44s to boot!

You mention that your revolver has had nothing but cast through it?

What is your approximate round count on this gun?????

Three 44s

[waksupi]

I have started to believe over the years, that ambient conditions in your own area, will determine how well something works for you. Some swear by Liquid Alox, others swear at it. On a lot of things, only guidelines can be offered. Your own experimentation is the only thing that will give you the final answer in your particular circumstances.

I recommend you stop water dropping your boolits. They are most likely too hard, and are probably skidding all the way down the barrel.

[HeavyMetal]

I am not a fan of LLA but what Waksupi says make sense!

I have found ammo loaded here in LA does not perform as well in the higher altitude of Nevada and suspect it my be a number of things/ The same loads built there work as well as the ones I load in the southland so ambient conditions do play a part.

The idea that you have to much bearing surface also merits looking at. I have always felt removing a GC shank should entail flycutting the mold ( shortening it) rather than try to enlarge the shank area. Sadly this means you cut the whole mold down but I still think it's the better method!

One question not asked was about the smoothness of the bore. I had heard about rough bores for years but had never seen one that would lead.

Then a guy at work bought a Charle Daly 45 auto 1911! Holy Mackeral what a joke!

I spent the better part of an entire weekend just Trying to find the rifling on this pile! The gun looked good shot good and had a decent trigger but barrel actually had very visable tool marks in it! It might have been OK with Jacketed rounds but lead, 8 rounds and you couldn't see rifling!
I suggested a switch to a Bar Sto this was done and the leading issue stopped!

Suggest you run dry patches down both your Ruger's and see if you can feel additional drag in the 44 barrel as well as shine a good strong light down it and look for rough patches and tool marks!

I can only make one real suggestion here: CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME AND THEN GO SHOOT! This is the only way you'll figure out what was causing it.

Just had a thought: If you have a Kneitic boolit puller take a few rounds down and masure the booluts after seating. Wouldn't be the first time a die set was real tight and allowed the case to size the boolit as it was seated! Mike a couple and make sure they come out the same size as they went in!

If the case is sizing them undersized you got your leading problem figured out!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

I agree with the others on your leading problem, and they are giving good advise, Change 1 componet at a time. If you are sizing to .431-32 that should work, in the 44maggie unless you have a real problem with the forcing cone or an internal demple in the BBL. Clean the BBL and slug as suggested to look for a problem there.
I personaly don't like 296 behind a non gas checked boolit .IMHO it burns the butt of the slug enough to cause your fouling problem. Been there done that, 296 works ok behind a GC boolit or a J boolit, same for 4227 & h-110

IMHO: If the BBL slugs ok...
1st I would change the lube
2nd I would change the powder, try 2400
3rd I would change the boolit

Good Luck, let us know how it goes

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree totaly if it needs a check use a check and use one that fits properly.
I have no problems with PB boolits in any of my revolvers, no leading, no accuracy loss, in fact some shoot better then my GC boolits.
What I will not do is to leave a check off a boolit that was made for one.
Even the PB boolit I made for the 45-70 revolver at over 1630 fps is shooting an inch at 100 yd's. No leading at all.
Been getting away from checks because of cost and the more I work with PB boolits the happier I get.
Seems as if with the fall in metal prices, checks should be $2.00 a thousand. :confused:
I sold a bunch of aluminum a few weeks ago and the price dropped from 60 cents to a quarter a pound. Hardly worth my gas to get to the scrap yard. Then they only pay 10 cents a pound for WW's and would not sell me any.

[44man]

I am not a fan of LLA but what Waksupi says make sense!

I have found ammo loaded here in LA does not perform as well in the higher altitude of Nevada and suspect it my be a number of things/ The same loads built there work as well as the ones I load in the southland so ambient conditions do play a part.

The idea that you have to much bearing surface also merits looking at. I have always felt removing a GC shank should entail flycutting the mold ( shortening it) rather than try to enlarge the shank area. Sadly this means you cut the whole mold down but I still think it's the better method!

One question not asked was about the smoothness of the bore. I had heard about rough bores for years but had never seen one that would lead.

Then a guy at work bought a Charle Daly 45 auto 1911! Holy Mackeral what a joke!

I spent the better part of an entire weekend just Trying to find the rifling on this pile! The gun looked good shot good and had a decent trigger but barrel actually had very visable tool marks in it! It might have been OK with Jacketed rounds but lead, 8 rounds and you couldn't see rifling!
I suggested a switch to a Bar Sto this was done and the leading issue stopped!

Suggest you run dry patches down both your Ruger's and see if you can feel additional drag in the 44 barrel as well as shine a good strong light down it and look for rough patches and tool marks!

I can only make one real suggestion here: CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME AND THEN GO SHOOT! This is the only way you'll figure out what was causing it.

Just had a thought: If you have a Kneitic boolit puller take a few rounds down and masure the booluts after seating. Wouldn't be the first time a die set was real tight and allowed the case to size the boolit as it was seated! Mike a couple and make sure they come out the same size as they went in!

If the case is sizing them undersized you got your leading problem figured out!
Now that is very true but DO NOT CRIMP before pulling a boolit. That is why I need hard boolits in my revolvers. I use a lot of case tension for the slow powders and I do not want the brass to size my boolits when seating and I don't want the crimp to ruin them either. The boolit must be hard enough to iron out the crimp.
If you take a fired case and see a little crimp left, you have ruined your boolit two ways.
I have repeated here a million times that the brass controls accuracy more then anything and it also effects leading.
Expanding too much for a soft boolit hurts accuracy but might stop leading. If you want both accuracy and zero leading, learn your brass and stop worrying about .001" difference in a boolit.
Each time you change the burn rate of the powder you use, you can change boolit hardness and neck tension but if you get boolits too soft with a very fast powder, you need to start to harden boolits again.
I have no absolute answer for all the different alloys and powders all of you use. All I can say for sure is that the brass is the key with any revolver.
I find it a lot easier to use a harder boolit, 18 to 22 BHN, good case tension, good lube, firm but not over crimping, a decent fit to the throats, the right primer for case size and temperatures and you will find any powder at any velocity will give the best results.
Two things I never change, boolit hardness and case expansion. If a different alloy will fall into my hardness requirements, it is good to go. 50-50 WW and pure, water dropped and aged, straight WW, water dropped and aged or a harder alloy will shoot the same because I do not have to fool with the brass to make the alloy work.
Brass guys, think brass! :-)

[felix]

44man is absolutely correct, not only for revolters, but for any gun. The brass must fit the application, and for BR guns the brass is equal to each other parameter in importance. ... felix