225646 - 1:8 ar15 loads?

[GrizzLeeBear]

With the current shortage/price situation on components I decided to try casting for my AR for Highpower practice/matches. Ordered a 225646, gas checks and .225 Lyman size die from Grafs this morning (they were the only ones that had all 3 in stock). Looking for a load that will shoot about 1.5 MOA at 100 and 200 yds. and cycle the action. Such a load should be good enough to stay in the 10 ring on a SR target. Don't need a lot of velocity, anything 1700 - 2100 fps should work just fine for practice, standing and rapid fire prone stages. More speed is fine if accuracy and leading aren't a problem.
I have some 2400, H4198, H4895. I have 8 lbs. each of RL15 and Ramshot x-terminator (what I use for jacketed loads). I think a slightly reduced load of RL15 might work well to keep velocity around 2100, keep pressure down to help reduce leading, but have enough port pressure to cycle the action? I know that the 1 in 8 twist is going to limit what I can do with cast, but thats what I got. Any tips you guys can give would be helpfull.

[felix]

Consider strongly your ability to modify the port pressure, spring pressure to mate the GUN to the load. You might find that a lighter boolit and therefore a faster powder will work better because of that crazy twist in stripping a boolit too early. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

"Looking for a load that will shoot about 1.5 MOA at 100 and 200 yds. and cycle the action."

With your 8" twist barrel best accuracy, considering the 22 shot strings of slow fire, will be in the 1500-1700 fps range. The problem then is one of functional reliability while maintaining acceptable accuracy.

First off let me mention alloy. My experience with cast in .223s is you want a hard alloy but not one that is brittle. I've found an alloy of 18-20 BHN works well. I use a 60/40 mix of WWs and linotype but sometimes a 50/50 mix works better for the faster twists.

I use Hornady GCs and Javelina lube.

I normally recommend 4895 as the powder for .223 loads but it may not burn consistantly at the lower end required of the 8" twist for accuracy.

I would suggest starting with the 4198 or 4759 . I would start with 10 gr of either and use a 1/2 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1/2 gr increments until functional reliability is achieved and see what kind of accuracy you then get with a 22 shot string.

The accuracy requirements are not as stringent for the 200/300 yard targets as with the 600 yard targets. Thus I've shot a lot of reduced practice matches with M193/M855 ball ammo and done quite well on the 200/300 yard targets. I then switched to good bullet loads for the 600 yard reduced target. Thus I suggest you consider a functionally reliable load for the 200/300 yard targets and maybe accept a little less accuracy (2.5 MOA for instance). I then suggest you pay close attention to the most accurate load for the 600 yard reduced target. As that is slow fire a little more effort to work the action manually may pay off in more points.

Never know though, you might find a load that is accurate and functionally reliable. Let us know how you do.

Larry Gibson

[GrizzLeeBear]

Larry, thanks for the info. I know I am going to have some expiramentiing to do. I am only looking for a load that will hold the 10 ring (about 2 MOA) at 200 yds. on the SR target for standing and RF sitting (and for practice at 100 yds). Then switch to jacketed loads with 55 gr. SP for 300 yd. RF prone and 75 gr. A-max for 600 yd. SF prone. Of course I will need to use some Sweets, etc. to clean the copper out after each match so that I can go back to the lead boolits next practice session or match. This all may or may not work out quite this way, but since I'm not planning to kill anything but paper with these, I am pretty flexible on the velocity. Functioning the action with fair accuracy are the only goal.
I was planning on starting out with water dropped WW and seeing what I can do.
I don't have any linotype, but I have some ballast weights that came out of some light fixtures that my dad (retired electrician) had from a job years ago. I don't know what the alloy in them is but they are stamped "cast lead" and are HARD. They almost ring when you tap them with a hammer. Figured I could mix these with WW to harden them up if I need to.

BTW Larry, do you currently shoot highpower? I just got back into it last year with the AR after moving to Michigan 4 years ago. My dad and I quit shooting it about 15 years ago after we lost a couple HP ranges near us in eastern Iowa, and we started shooting muzzleloaders. There is a HP club with a 200 yd. range only a 20 min. drive from my house here and they shoot just about every other week during the summer.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, thanks for the info. I know I am going to have some expiramentiing to do. I am only looking for a load that will hold the 10 ring (about 2 MOA) at 200 yds. on the SR target for standing and RF sitting (and for practice at 100 yds). Then switch to jacketed loads with 55 gr. SP for 300 yd. RF prone and 75 gr. A-max for 600 yd. SF prone. Of course I will need to use some Sweets, etc. to clean the copper out after each match so that I can go back to the lead boolits next practice session or match. This all may or may not work out quite this way, but since I'm not planning to kill anything but paper with these, I am pretty flexible on the velocity. Functioning the action with fair accuracy are the only goal.
I was planning on starting out with water dropped WW and seeing what I can do.
I don't have any linotype, but I have some ballast weights that came out of some light fixtures that my dad (retired electrician) had from a job years ago. I don't know what the alloy in them is but they are stamped "cast lead" and are HARD. They almost ring when you tap them with a hammer. Figured I could mix these with WW to harden them up if I need to.

Add about 2% tin to those WWs and they should harden up fine WD'd from the mould. You might cast some bullets of that "ballast" alloy and see how they do all by themselves.

BTW Larry, do you currently shoot highpower? I just got back into it last year with the AR after moving to Michigan 4 years ago. My dad and I quit shooting it about 15 years ago after we lost a couple HP ranges near us in eastern Iowa, and we started shooting muzzleloaders. There is a HP club with a 200 yd. range only a 20 min. drive from my house here and they shoot just about every other week during the summer.


Shot HP for years, made Master in the NMC and long range with the M14/M1A. About the time ARs came into their own my eyes went south. By the time I get enough lens in front of my eye to focus on the front sight of an AR service rifle I can't see the target at all. I do shoot match rifle still. I have my Colt Competition AR about half tricked out and use it along with my M70 Target rifle. I also have a Savage Competition .223 that I've got set up. The job since I've retired has taken me away the last couple years but this year is looking like I'll get a few matches in. My club (TRRC) has matches back to 600 yards.

Larry

[GrizzLeeBear]

While I'm dealing with the mold problems (see "disapointing 225646" post) I was doing some searching and found some .223 loads with IMR 4350 at Reloaders Nest. 26 gr. with 55 gr. jacketed for 2600 fps out of a 24" barrel. I filled .223 case up to the base of the neck (where a bullet would seat to) and it weighed right at 26 gr. So, looks like that load is a full case. Since reducing slow powder loads is a no-no, I was thinking that a mininum starting load of 80% (21 gr.) would give me around 2100 - 2200 fps in the shorter 20" AR barrel. Anyone try slow powders for cast boolits in a .223?

[felix]

Give it a shot with full load of 26 grains, and not your reduced load at all. The velocity might not reach 2400, the practical limit anyway. 4350 will require a heavy boolit pull for full velocity which a lead boolit won't provide. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

GrizzLeeBear

What is going to limit you is that 8" twist. Given the right alloy, quality of cast bullets, correct sizing and correct powder along with a few other things you are going to bump into the RPM threshold at 1550 fps. Once you go over that threshold, where ever it is with your rifle and load, then the group size expands in a non-linear fashion. In other words a 1.5 moa group at 100 yards does not equate to 3 moa at 200 yards. Therefore, given your parameters, I suggest you test at 200 yards to know for certain if your loads are 10 ring capable. While I have not worked with 225646 I have worked with other cast bullets in 9" twist .223s, my Colt Comp AR and my Savage Competition. I have not been able to keep 10 ring accuracy on the SR1 target at 200 yards at velocities much over 1800 fps with a 22 shot string. The RPM is simply too high.

Larry Gibson

[rhubarb]

I started casting 223 with the same goal for the same reason: 1.5 MOA for HP practice. Thinking about it, if I'd spent half the time dryfiring that I've spent researching, casting, lubing, loading, shooting, researching, casting, lubing, loading and shooting, I'd be a lot better on the HP line. I can't add much to the advice the much esteemed Felix and Larry have given you. I can echo them with practical experience in the last few months from the same road you're traveling.

I've also tried RL15 in my 1:9 AR with the 225415 because I have several pounds of it. Just at about the point I got reliable ejection the accuracy went out the window. With a half grain increase it went from 4-6 MOA to off of a 24x36 target. Yes, it was a big accuracy window to start with. Ditto for H4895 and BLC2 as far as poor accuracy at light loads and no accuracy with enough powder to function. Also, you're not going to build enough pressure for efficient burn- lots of unburned powder left behind. I suppose that's what Felix means by heavy boolit pull. It was my experience to some degree with all but pistol powders, but by far worse with slower powders.

IMR3031 shows promise for moderate accuracy with function for me. IMR4227 is about as accurate for me, but does not eject. Your H4198 is between the two in burn rate. Larry's right about the velocity. All of my best accuracy is on the slower end of the spectrum; below 2000fps.

I hadn't thought of modifying the gun to the load. How much is a buffer spring anyhow? $3? Shoot.

[GabbyM]

I picked up a 70 grain Old West mold used off here a couple weeks ago. Have a few of those torpedoes cast up. Plan was to use them in 1-9” AR and maybe a 1-12” AR and M-700. Now I read felix say a lighter bullet may work better. :-o