158 gr. RN in 9mm ... with a fine grain powder

[dogfood]

Hey folks, I know this topic has been hit more than once, but I haven't yet found the exact info I need.

I'm going to start loading a 158 gr. RN (sized .356) in the 9mm Luger. I'm looking to get 900 fps or better. That really shouldn't be a problem. I've seen where Blue Dot and Herco have been recommended. Nothing wrong with those, except that I've found that flake powder doesn't always meter super consistent, and given there is not much margin for error with the 9mm - especially with this heavy of a boolit, I would like to go with something finer grain.

On hand, I have SR7625, which seems like it might be a on the fast side ... 2400 and Enforcer which are probably too slow. I'm thinking maybe Longshot or True Blue, but I'm open to suggestions. Any experiences?

Thanks,
dogfood

[454PB]

HS-6. I haven't used it with a boolit that heavy, but it's my "go to" powder for 9mm.

[high standard 40]

Might try Accurate #7, it's a ball powder & meters very well. I don't see a load for a bullet that heavy though.

[mike in co]

Hey folks, I know this topic has been hit more than once, but I haven't yet found the exact info I need.

I'm going to start loading a 158 gr. RN (sized .356) in the 9mm Luger. I'm looking to get 900 fps or better. That really shouldn't be a problem. I've seen where Blue Dot and Herco have been recommended. Nothing wrong with those, except that I've found that flake powder doesn't always meter super consistent, and given there is not much margin for error with the 9mm - especially with this heavy of a boolit, I would like to go with something finer grain.

On hand, I have SR7625, which seems like it might be a on the fast side ... 2400 and Enforcer which are probably too slow. I'm thinking maybe Longshot or True Blue, but I'm open to suggestions. Any experiences?

Thanks,
dogfood

aa5, start around 4 and work up.....should get you over 900 at 4.4 or so.....

why is my question, sub gun ok, but the heavier the bullet the slower the second shot.......

mike in co

[snaggdit]

You could always build yourself a powder hopper vibrator. Any old cell phone or xbox controller has a motor in it with an offset weight (to make them vibrate). Mount it to the powder hopper with a battery or DC wall transformer and you are on the road to consistancy. A fun little project...

[oso]

Agree with 454PB. I use HS6/W540 in 9mm for 900 fps with the Lee 356-153-2R at 1.166" col.

[FieldShunt]

The day before this thread started, I was playing around with the 158gr round-nose Lee tumble-lubes I have on hand for 9mm.
I tried several in spent-primer cases with WSF (my favorite 9mm powder) and if I wasn't smooshing the bullet onto the powder, I had trouble with the front driving band grinding on the lands when I went to chamber the rounds.
Anyone happen to have direct experience with the Lee TL in 9?

[dogfood]

Thanks for the replies ... and some thoughts:

Why?
I received an old Lyman manual (early 1960's) from a friend, and it showed loads for the Lyman 158 gr. RN (I don't recall the mold number). I was intrigued. Then I saw that Fiocchi is loading 1 58 gr. RN jacketed bullet. So it's something different I wanted to try.

AA#5, AA#7 and HS6
I looked at AA#5 and HS6, and they seemed to be on the fast side for this weight bullet. My previous experience with AA#7 many years ago was not so good, with varying charge weights. It's very small grain, and I suspect my problem had to do with static build-up in the hopper. But I'm willing to try it again. I'll probably buy a pound of the first of these three that I see.

dogfood

[anachronism]

I tried it & ended up giving up on the project. Accuracy was terrible. It turned out that I was damaging the bullet by seating it so far in the case that the inside case taper was distorting the bases. The 9mm case isn't straight inside like a 38 spl, it has a really thick web. When I seated the bullets out to eliminate the problem, the OAL was too long.

[S.R.Custom]

...My previous experience with AA#7 many years ago was not so good, with varying charge weights. It's very small grain, and I suspect my problem had to do with static build-up in the hopper. But I'm willing to try it again.

Back when I lived in Cincinnati in the mid-90s I shot a lot of pin matches at Target World. Those contestants who shot 9mms got a more advantageous pin placement owing to the 9mm's relative lack of knockdown power. So, I did a little experimenting... (actually, a LOT of experimenting.)

Long story short, AA#7 is THE powder for heavy bullet chicanery in the 9mm. I won't go into the specifics, but I was able to push a 147 gr slug out of my Beretta Brigadier that made 'major' easily.

If you have a problem with #7 throwing consistently, I would guess a problem with your powder throw; it always worked well for me.



[edit] Anachronism: That's why I settled on the 147 gr. bullet-- it was bevel based. And Federal cases, followed by Remington had the least amount of sidewall taper.

[mike in co]

i've done some work with 9mm and major loads. lots of work with aa2,5,7,9,vv n105.
i was only using a 135gr bullet( both lead and jacketed) in my case aa5 worked out fine. these loads were common in steel on steel 9mm's, not for al alloy, plastic or pot metal guns.
yes i was shooting 135's at 1300 fps......lots of them, and never blew up a gun....did i say i liked cz' pistols...
this was a 9x21, oal of 1.15/1.6.....not much a 9x21 can do that cannot be done in a 9mm(9x19)
only real issue is if you go with real lite bullets.
mike in co


Back when I lived in Cincinnati in the mid-90s I shot a lot of pin matches at Target World. Those contestants who shot 9mms got a more advantageous pin placement owing to the 9mm's relative lack of knockdown power. So, I did a little experimenting... (actually, a LOT of experimenting.)

Long story short, AA#7 is THE powder for heavy bullet chicanery in the 9mm. I won't go into the specifics, but I was able to push a 147 gr slug out of my Beretta Brigadier that made 'major' easily.

If you have a problem with #7 throwing consistently, I would guess a problem with your powder throw; it always worked well for me.



[edit] Anachronism: That's why I settled on the 147 gr. bullet-- it was bevel based. And Federal cases, followed by Remington had the least amount of sidewall taper.

[dogfood]

Interestingly, SuperMag, I was thinking about trying these on bowling pins as well. As you noted, pins for the lighter calibers (essentially the 9mm, .38 Special, and below) have their pins set back further on the table. And my experience has been that, in general, heavier bullets work better than lighter bullets ... at least up to a point.

Again, AA#7 is a very fine grain powder, so I suspect my problem had to do with static (a very dry winter basement in an electric-heated house), and/or the fact I had no baffle in my Hornady powder measure. Both issues have since been alleviated, so I'll give it a second go.

dogfood

[deltaenterprizes]

Be sure to maintain MAXIMUM overall length,according to the Speer Reloading manual .030'' can DOUBLE the internal pressure. The 9 MM Luger cartridge is designed to operate at 35,000 c.u.p., if you double that you are in the range of high power rifle operating pressures in a BLOWBACK action. I know a genius that was shooting major loads in a Browning Highpower and ended up cracking the slide and then the frame.
There is a reason that Lyman removed those loads from their manual and I think it may have been from guns blowing apart!

[monadnock#5]

Here's a link I bookmarked for DIY powder baffles:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=34885&highlight=baffled

I have problems with static buildup too. An industrial strength demagnetizer does an excellent job, but isn't very handy. Dryer sheets stored in the reservoir between uses is good, but the results are inconsistent. My latest experiments involve the use of Static Guard anti-static in the aerosol can. A light spritz on the reservoir 180° apart, and the same on the cast iron body (Lyman55) does an excellent job for me. Good enough that if my wife forbids me the use of her spray can, I'll buy one of my own, thank you very much. I hope this helps you out.:Fire:

[sundog]

Dogfood, the Lyman #45 manual, circa 1970, shows loads for the 158 gr 358311 for 9mm. I've shoot that quite a bit years ago with Unique. The data shows Unique 3.5/883 to 4.5/1039. Herco is 3.6/840 to 4.6/1010. Test gun is listed as S&W Mdl 39 w/4" bbl. Keep in mind this data is 40 years old. If I were going to load that again, I would opt for one of the powders mentioned above, prolly #7 or #5, or HS6. Since getting the RCBS 9mm-147 I use it more than anything. Nothing wrong with a 'heavier' boolit in 9mm.

[jerry6stl]

Years ago, I often shot 358311 in a war surplus German P-38 AC-41. It seemed to prefer that bullet over any of the more conventional Luger bullets. It was quite Accurate and provided 100% functioning. I used Red Dot and Unique, but didn't keep those loading notes.

Jerry

[dogfood]

Another round of good comments ... thanks.

Yes, maintaining the correct OAL is very important in the 9mm, becoming critical as projectile weight gets heavy. Amazingly, my Lyman #44 manual (and apparently there was no change in the #45 manual) lists no bullet-specific OAL (just the max). Certainly just picking a length out of the blue is a bad idea, as others have noted. This may explain why Lyman omitted this bullet weight somewhere along the line.

Couple this with the fact that due to the nose profile, most barrels won't take this bullet loaded at max OAL (1.169"). I loaded some dummy rounds, and my Beretta 92 will only take a 1.150" (comfortably), but a Hi-Power clone won't even take that. I'm only working with the Beretta on this project.

So, sort of coming full circle, you can see why I was thinking a slow, fine grain powder. There isn't much margin for error, and it's definitely a "start low, move up carefully" proposition.

I wouldn't even think of using a big, flaky fast powder - like Red Dot. Yet Lyman listed it in the #44 manual. I can just imagine the consequences.

dogfood