9mm Loads with Nobel Sport/Vectan AO Powder

[Texasflyboy]

9mm Loads with Nobel Sport/Vectan AO Powder

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/AO.jpg

This powder was purchased December 2005 from Graf & Sons. Delivered price was $7.50 per lb. AO is a flake powder suitable for 9mm, 40S&W, & .45ACP.

Research on the Internet provided scant information on loading with AO powder. A number of web based resources had conflicting information. Web pages showing burn rates placed AO in the general burning range of HERCO, which suggested that AO was a slower powder.

The best source of information was a French based website which indicated that AO was best suited for “plomb” (lead) pistol loads. But load data was absent.

After diligent research, a maximum load of 5.3 grains of AO for the Hensley & Gibbs #115 9mm bullet was proposed. This proved to be too hot for a lead bullet, but would work for a FMJ bullet. The H&G #115 is a .356 124 grain lead round nose (LRN), which is bevel base in the mold I own. Plain base versions of this mold throw projectiles in the 127-130 grain range.

Photo of the Hensley & Gibbs #115 Mold:

http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/molds/115_5.jpg

All loads were assembled on a Dillon 550 press. Charges with weighed with a Dillon electronic scale. Scale was tested and verified with a set of Lyman check weights prior to and after loading.

The components for testing were as follows:

Case: New Winchester 9mm x 19 unprimed cases
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol Primer
Projectiles:

1) Hensley & Gibbs #115 124gr. 9mm Lead Round Nose
2) USGI .356 130gr. FMJ bullet (normally for .38 special)

The first loads (20 rounds each) ranged from a low of 3.7 grains to a high of 5.3 grains. Loads with both projectiles were:

Target #3 & #6 - 20 @ 3.7 grains (Failed to properly function weapon)
Velocity: 124 grain LRN
High 974fps
Low 871fps
Avg 936fps

130 Grain FMJ
High 955fps
Low 917fps
Avg 934fps

Target #4 & #1 - 20 @ 4.0 grains (best for LRN H&G #115 bullet)
Velocity: 124 grain LRN
High 1040fps
Low 991fps
Avg 1018fps

130 Grain FMJ
High 1037fps
Low 956fps
Avg 1000fps


Target #9 & #12 - 20 @ 4.3 grains (best for USGI 130gr. Bullet)
Velocity: 124 grain LRN
High 1095fps
Low 1042fps
Avg 1069fps

130 Grain FMJ
High 1086fps
Low 1045fps
Avg 1068fps

20 @ 4.5 grains (Keyhole with LRN Bullet)
20 @ 4.7 grains (Keyhole with LRN Bullet)
20 @ 5.0 grains (Keyhole with LRN Bullet)

20 @ 5.3 grains (Keyhole with LRN Bullet)
Velocity with USGI 130gr FMJ Bullet:
High 1174
Low 1128
Avg 1149

Velocity with H&G #115 Bullet:
High 1200
Low 1157
Avg 1163



Range was 10 yards for all groups. Target was a 11” x 17” U.S. ledger size paper with three one inch black dots overlayed on 1” grid squares. Point of aim for all groups was the 6 o’clock hold position with the dot sitting on top of the front sight. Groups were fired from the seated supported position with a two hand hold. All shots were chrono’d with a PACT chronograph.

The firearm was a FN mfg Browning Hi-Power in 9 x 19mm. Fixed sights. This pistol was purchased from CDNN in summer of 2005 and has approximately 1,000 rounds of use. The pistol was cleaned prior to shooting. Fouling shots were 15 rounds (one magazine) of CCI Blazer 9mm 115gr FMJ. The pistol was allowed to cool before the first string was fired.

The results:

The most accurate LRN load was 4.0 grains of AO under the Hensley & Gibbs #115 projectile. Loads at 4.3 grains and higher keyholed at 10 yards. 4.0 grains is regarded by me as a maximum load for the H&G #115 with AO.

The most accurate 130gr. FMJ load was 4.3 grains of AO.

Loads at 3.7 grains with the 124 grain LRN bullet failed to function the weapon properly. There was a 50% stovepipe problem @ 3.7 grains. However, the 130FMJ bullet did function at 3.7 grains, but case ejection was weak and the last round failed to lock the slide back.

Targets are labeled. Click the link for larger photos.

Target 3 – 3.7 AO – 130gr USGI FMJ Bullet (http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/3.jpg)

Target 6 – 3.7 AO – 124gr H&G #115 Bullet (http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/6.jpg)

Target 4 – 4.0 AO – 124gr H&G #115 Bullet (Best Load for LRN) (http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/4.jpg)

Target 1 – 4.0 AO – 130gr USGI FMJ Bullet (http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/1.jpg)

Target 9 – 4.3 AO - 124gr H&G #115 Bullet (http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/9.jpg)

Target 12 - 4.3 AO - 130gr USGI FMJ Bullet (http://users2.ev1.net/~eastus1/FN/12.jpg)


Final Note: Cases were examined for high pressure signs. At 5.3 grains high pressure signs were starting to appear. Powder composition did not allow for charges greater than 5.3 grains with either the H&G #115 bullet or the USGI 130gr. FMJ bullet.

[mike in co]

ao....4.9 for 125 lead at .25 seating, max 5.2
that would be from the nobel sport reloading guide 1997.....

[Buckshot]

.................I'd seen those powders in the Graf & Son catalog for the past 2-3 years. They also had a couple Vectan rifle types early on. Less then $8/lb has sure got a lot of canister grade stuff beat by half, and then some.

...............Buckshot

[Lloyd Smale]

guess im not understanding why the load was to hot for a cast bullet and not for a jacketed. If anything in my experience cast bullet have allways gave me less pressure.

[felix]

Lloyd, the cast boolit must be obturating far more, or far faster, or both, than the jacketed bullet. Obturation will give a quicker rise to the pressure-time curve for all powder but the very slow for the case. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

How do those square-shaped granules meter through a powder measure? I have some of Bartlett's #7 powder, and it refuses to meter with anything like consistency. I bought a set of Lee powder spoons due largely to the "inspiration" of the #7 fuel.

[Texasflyboy]

How do those square-shaped granules meter through a powder measure?

That was one of my primary concerns. Once set, the powder meters to within .1 grain consistently. I just finished loading approximately 1,500 rounds of 9mm using the AO powder and I checked the powder setting about every 50 rounds. I was surprised at the consistency. It also flowed fairly well through the Dillon powder measure, which was another concern of mine.

On the Dillon, the only problem appears to be vagrant flakes that appear on the shell plate. They hitch a ride around the shell plate and end up in the primer ram hole and sometimes get trapped between the primer and the ram. Seating a primer with one of these large flakes dents the primer, so I've had to incorporate an additional "Is the ram clean?" check into my loading routine. Every 50 rounds or so (when I stop to weigh charges) I blast the shell plate with compressed air to clean out any flake hitchhikers.

For $7.50 a lb delivered I can put up with the additional hassle...

:)

[Jeffreytooker]

I got 16# of Vectan A0 a while ago. I tracked down an few Cast Boolit loads for it, and they come pretty close to Herco. Its volume density is the same as Unique, and Herco. I used Quickload to run some Vectan A0 loads. I used Herco in place of A0 and ran the loads. The pressures and velocitys were within 5% of the listed A0 numbers.

The thing that intrested me was that when loading cast boolits in some 30 cal rifles the pressures with Herco/A0 gets up toward Pmax about the same time one reaches desired velocity. Say on the neighborhood of 1800fps.

One load from my quickload files is:

308W, Cast boolit 214 gr, V= 1810 Pmax 51378, 73% fill, 100% burn, 18.83 gr Herco/A0.

When I get home and try this one I will start about 15% low and start up. Which is the same as starting out with any surplus powder. I figure there has to be a sweet spot somewhere before 1800 fps. I am doing this to stay away from slower powders which have low Pmax, and incomplete burning. In talking with others like 30BR shooters I have come to the conclusion that consistent burning of powder only exists when pressure therefore temperature is fairly high.

Most smokeless powder is made for jac**ted boolits. Pressures of 45 to 50K psi are normal. This is where the powder is meant to burn most consistently. The extreme invers of this is using very slow powders for Cast Boolit loads and having unburned powder left in the barrel. This is the reason that the 30BR case is so small in relation to the Cast Boolit weight. Small case volume in relation to boolit weight, case full of slowest powder which will burn at 95% or better. This contributs to consistency of powder burn.

The reason I bought the A0 is to give hi fill ratio, and pressure at the desired velocity in a case which is really way too large for the bullet weight and velocity commom to cast boolits.

Incomming ?? :)

Jeffrey

[Lee]

Incoming??? Yeah, please keep it up. I'm getting a whole lot outta this thread. Thanks...........Lee

[Blackwater]

Deputy Al and others, have you ever tried taking an extra powder measure nozzle and reaming it out to as large as you can use, like say to about .32" if you're using it on .357's and larger calibers? A powder drop nozzle with a big hole prevents a LOT of bridging. I learned this a good while back when loading long grained extruded rifle powders. I took an old .22 nozzle and reamed it out just big enough that it wasn't too big for the .270's case mouths, and that helped keep bridging at a bare minimum. Even helped to do another similarly using IMR-4831 in the 6mm. Rem, too. Just a few thousandths bigger hole CAN make at least some significant difference in how badly a powder tends to bridge. WIth the 6mm., I used to knock the measure's handle 5 times to get good, consistent charges of 4831 first in the measure, and then I'd knock 5 times to dump it. It was always a real irksome thing when I'd bump the measure and the rest of the previous charge would fall out on the carpet. Just a thought?