An informal contest with Starmetal.

[44man]

The goal is to shoot the smallest group at 100 yd's trying to approach 1".
The rules; any off the shelf revolver from .44 up, any scope, any CAST boolit, Shot from sandbags, (No Ransom rest.) and a hunting load over 1300 fps. Five shots.
Of course all of you are invited to participate. Shoot all you want and just post the best group.
I am entering my first try and I am handicapping myself with a red dot that covers the entire black center of the target.
.475 Linebaugh BFR, Ultra Dot, WFN boolit from my home made mould.
Three shots in 9/16", total size 2-1/8".

[45 2.1]

Whatsamatter, afraid of the smaller calibers?

[44man]

No, but I don't have any so I can't compete with them.

[StarMetal]

Hey what can I say. I must be another Ed McGiven. Born with the natural talent of being a shooter. So go ahead and pick on me. I know I can shoot.

By the way I don't currently own a big boomer. I have no need for them. Only magnum handgun I have at the moment is a 357. My handgun of choice is the 45LC. Does all I need to do with a handgun.
None of my handguns wear scopes. Probably with my bad eyes now they should. I just never liked them with scopes, to me defeats their purpose. Tell me what the difference is between and big heavy long magnum handgun with a scope that you must carry in an across the chest holster, or should I say scabbarb, and a short leveraction like a Model 94 Trapper??

Joe

[Bullshop]

So Joe with a tallent like yours you will be leading the pack in the postal match right? You are going to participate arent you? No reason not to right? We all need a pace setter and sounds like your it. Time is short better get them targets shot and sent in!
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

Dan,

Actually no. I don't care about it, I don't have to prove nothing, and I have enough fun doing other stuff. So I guess that leaves it up to you to be the leader of the pact. I have a whole bunch of loads to test in three different rifles and waiting for a nice day which will be the day after tomr.

Joe

[sundog]

Joe, wx here today 65dF and NO wind, nada, wind sock limp, and clear blue and 22. If wx is moving your way, a couple days and yer good to go. Post your range report. Today I got home from work and shot two 10-round groups in my deuce with BD and quenched boolits - a project Felix and I have been working on. Behind the barn, 50 yards, with a light sporter Sako, on a rickety bench. A flyer in each group, but looks like they'd make easy 3/4 inch - stick yer pinky in the hole. Kinda fun sometimes. sundog

[Crash_Corrigan]

I tried but with my Ruger P 90 DC .45 ACP @ 100 yds I failed to hit the paper. I did however bracket the target up and down and finally got a hit on the cardboard backing.

[Bullshop]

Joe
I dont think the point is to proove anything I think the point is to have fun and maybe learn stuff and just kinda enjoy playin with other gun nuts.
BIC/BS

[44man]

That was my idea, to wring out what it takes to get the magic number. I thought if anyone could figure what it takes to do it, it would be Joe. However he does not seem interested.
I expect that for those that get close to an inch, will post every loading detail to add to all of our knowledge.
I figured that the larger bores with their recoil would be harder to make the grade thus taking more effort. Maybe I am wrong so let's include the .357 in this shootout. Maybe more of you will try.
Remember it must be a wheelgun without custom work done to it, trigger work or lapping barrels is fine, just no custom barrels or cylinders. I suppose large bore autos could also be used because we are looking for load work. But definitely no single shot pistols because I have shot under an inch at 200 meters with them. They are too much like a rifle and in most cases are more accurate.
So let's define the rules;
.357 and up
Preferably a wheelgun but autos allowed.
Cast boolits only.
No whimp loads, velocity must be what you would hunt with.
Any sighting equipment.
Shot from sandbags, no mechanical rests.
No time limits, take a year if needed.
I will continue with my .475 until I get close, then move to another caliber.
Does this sound like fun and do I interest more of you?

[hpdrifter]

You're using a 475 BFR and you say no custom barrels or cylinders?

[StarMetal]

I can't get 1300 fps out of my 45 LC so that rules me out. It also is not scoped. Like I said I don't own a big bore magnum. Never said I couldn't use one, just said I had no use for one...hahahahaha had to stick that in there.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, I can't see where you have a USE for most of your guns. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

Yeah, you may be right, why I'm thinking about working on the 61 Impala and restoring so I can enjoy driving it. Might quit guns.

Joe

[felix]

I'm behind you 100 percent, Joe. But, fuel is just as expensive for cars as it is for guns these days. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Felix,

You would be behind me, my Chevy is fast....hahahahahahaha

Oh by the way, Edelbrock proved to the hotrodding industry that a person can easily get 400 horsepower from a 350 Chevy engine on 87 octane pump gas and low compression pistons...and be reliable too.

Joe

[mike in co]

the sand bag rule is sorta backwards,,,,esp since you are shooting i high dollar hand built pistol.
if you meant to eliminate gun holding fixtures, say so, but i shoot from an adustable rifle mecanical rifle rest....you know screw up and down....not a ransom holding fixture.
some of my 44 loads have shot well i might have to give this a try....

[44man]

First, the BFR is an off the shelf revolver and legal in IHMSA. I will then move to a (GOD FORBID) RUGER! (What would you call a Freedom arms? It is also included. As long as you can buy it without having a custom gun built special.) As long as you can plunk your money down at a gun shop and he hands you a gun, it is OK.
And yes, the adjustable rest is OK as long as the gun is on sandbags and shot by hand.
Joe, do I have to reduce the velocity to get you in on this with your .45 Colt?
So be it, the velocity is hereby reduced to 1000 fps. Still a good hunting load!
Now what excuse will you come up with?
This is entirely informal for information and fun only. I don't even care if you cheat a little and use a 30X scope, as long as you shoot 100 yd's.
Come on guys, quit nitpicking and get to shooting!

[44man]

Oh Hell, the pistol perch is fine too, as long as you pull the trigger and the gun is not fastened to something.

[StarMetal]

I don't have a scope on my 45LC, but maybe I'll give it a go.

Joe

[hpdrifter]

I really don't care, but a Freedom arms has, to me, a custom barrel and a custom cylinder with custom lockwork. Cost $2000. The BFR is pretty close to that, if not the same, parts wise. Cost $1000,,,1400???? What for? Superior parts and workmanship. Ruger(GOD FORBID) $400. Why? It doesn't have the custom, custom, custom.

Oh, like I say it doesn't matter to me. I don't own anything more than a (GOD FORBID) Ruger 45, without a scope. So, this is just a Semi-Custom Target Shoot w/Optics. Blah. Like all other target shooting of the day. Money talks. :)

[44man]

Get with it, I have shot groups at 100 yd's with an open sighted Ruger that will make you say I am nuts. Join in the fun, it doesn't matter if you shoot tiny groups, just consistant groups and if you use open sights you will be recognized if you shoot something nice. The loading info is what is important here. No one is excluded. If you can plunk 5 shots in three inches at 100 yd's, your information is important to all of us. We all understand that open sights are harder and will overlook larger groups. After all, I am using a red dot and if you ever tried to hold that huge dot in the same place, you will see that open sights can be easier.
I am tired of just talking about what works, lets find out by getting together on this
That Ruger .45 will match the very best of them, Don't quit on us. Wait until I get my old Ruger going, it has over 57,000 heavy rounds through it and it is going to surprise you. I outshoot Freedom arms guns all the time! THE AMOUNT OF MONEY SPENT ON A GUN MEANS NOTHING. I whipped the best of the best in IHMSA with a cheap gun. How you load counts more. Please join us.

[HickoryCreek]

it has over 57,000 heavy rounds through it .

:holysheep 57000!

[StarMetal]

Glad I had my waders on.

Joe

[hpdrifter]

Thanks for the invite, but I'm a relative virgin at pistol work. just been shootin em a couple of years and am still fighting a bad lead problem. Do most of my open sight practice at 50 yards; tough enough!

I had a red dot on mine for a while. Didn't care for it, so took it off and sold it. Could however hit the ram at 250 yards withit quite often with it on there.

Just got a lubrisizer and gonna have to open a .452 die up to .453 or get a .454 and see if that help the leading. If it do, I'll be happy enough. All I can shoot in my back yard is 50 yards. Had to rearrange my backstop; got some new neighbors moved in. Darnit.

Don't mean no animosity, just ..........never mind.

Shoot good.

[StarMetal]

hpdrifter

You're the perfect canidate to beat 44man.

Joe

[hpdrifter]

Yeah, I could prolly shoot a one hole group if I got the right flinch goin.

[44man]

Joe, you are getting nasty! How about showing us something!
Hpdrifter, shoot 50 yd's. Of course your groups will have to be smaller but will still work for the purpose of the shoot. I am looking for the best systems for loading cast for accuracy for all of us so don't feel left out. Anyone else that does not have the distance is also welcome. I don't want to leave anyone out. This is for FUN. Just state at what distance you are able to shoot. I guess I made too much of a restriction for distance but anyone that has access to 100 yd's needs to shoot that far. And for the adventurous, if you have a longer range, feel free to shoot much farther.
Hickory, yes, and that is only the heavy loads. I shot IHMSA and kept track of the bricks of primers. I never kept track of the plinking loads so I don't know how many of those were shot. That is ONE .44, I had eight over the years.
Joe, how about showing us some 200 meter groups! Stop talking and give us pictures.

[StarMetal]

Yeah, I could prolly shoot a one hole group if I got the right flinch goin.

hpdrifter

Don't laugh about that because one of the better shooter friends that I had and shot against shook so bad I couldn't see how he could hit even his car in front of him. His answer to me was that he must squeeze the trigger at the exact right time. He went on to say to me "Don't tell me how much I shake, I'm the one that has to look at my front sight moving all over the place". We both got a really good laugh out of it.

Joe

[David R]

I'm in as soon as it warms up. I have a 45 Long Colt smith model 25 with factory sites, factory everything 'cept a trigger job (done twice) and a ruger 44 Super red hawk with a 2-6x scope. When it warms up I 'll shoot some 100 yard groups.

Tried this last year with my 45 auto. Needed a HUGE target :)

David

[hpdrifter]

here's a target shot at 45 yards hanging over tree limb while standing, mild breeze(a little sway) with open sights and 52 year old eyes. 9.3grns Unique 255grn SWC. Ruger BH 45 5.5" bbl. Don't have a bench or sandbags.

[44man]

HP, that is great for offhand, now we need the load information, every detail from sizing to the finished round. I am thinking of saving them on my computer and figure out how to post them all at once. It would make a great reference post.

[Buckshot]

...............Deppity Al orta take part. I've seen him standing up with some S&W revolter in 32 Mag (irons) and hitting the 200 meter gong.

.................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Oh, THANKS, BUCKSHOT. Now I'll have to "pony up" some results.

That S&W Model 16-4 x 6" is the most accurate handgun I own, but wouldn't qualify for this gig--too small, and not deer-capable.......which is where I think 44 Man is going with this venture.

I have a Bisley Blackhawk in 357 that has moments where it threatens to keep up with that Smith, accuracy-wise. I have yet to do critical load work with the Bishawk x 45 since reaming and polishing the throats to .453"--if that disqualifies the platform, so be it--its construction needed completion, and I did it at home--no shop work. The 45's work since the throat job shows promise, for sure.

I don't own any target-grade centerfire bottom-feeders.....mine are all service types. This isn't "precise", but I can hit B-27's inside the "7-bottle" at 100 yards about 95% of the time with every pistol I carry for social work, and practice "hostage drills" to 35 yards--frequently. I do better in both venues with the M-686 x 4" than with any of my stutterguns........it is probably the service piece I do my best work with.

I am NOT a target shooter, a trait I demonstrate most capably every Tuesday at the Burrito Match. I grew up shooting OBJECTS or CRITTERS, not paper. Hitting targets is all about focus and concentration--and I can do so on objects far better than I can on paper. Tight groups on paper are very satisfying, for certain--but I use them to prepare for shooting objects or critters, not as an end in itself. It's a mental thing, for sure--I'm just not generally motivated for precise paper punching, I want some "vigor" from a hit--fall over, blow up, go TINK, whatever. A 22 LR handgun or rifle and a bag of charcoal briquets can entertain me for hours, as can a swinging plate. Not very sophisticated, I suppose--the NRA bullseye folks are probably recoiling in terror and disgust--but that's me.

That said--I'M IN. Is the 45 Bisley with the proper throats OK for this gig? I would like to get a 250 grainer of some kind to 1100 FPS as a deer taker, maybe that Lee 300 at the same speed. My M-624 (44 Special) did some REAL GOOD work with #429421 at about 1075-1100 FPS. The 357 Bishawk can run the #358156's to 1500+........I wonder how tightly they group at that speed? Time to find out, I guess.

[Bret4207]

Come on Joe- where's your sense of competition? Whoever wins this thing can get "The Golden Waders Award". You talk the talk, can you walk the walk? For that matter I'm still waiting for you to enter the postal matches with your .5" SKS cast boolit gun. Either suck it up or tone it down.

I got no dog in this fight. I know anything under 6" at 100 yards ain't gonna happen for this hangunner. I can do a heck of a job up close and personal with a Husky 2100 chainsaw though!

[44man]

Guys, I am not trying to find the best shooter. The competition is to find the best loading procedures all of you have come up with. This is for a learning process.
The only reason for a little heavier load is that some light target loads are too easy to do and a lot of the smaller bores are way too easy to make accurate with almost anything. Once the bore size and power goes up, groups seem to get worse. Can we get together to solve a lot of it?

[45 2.1]

The only reason for a little heavier load is that some light target loads are too easy to do and a lot of the smaller bores are way too easy to make accurate with almost anything. Once the bore size and power goes up, groups seem to get worse. Can we get together to solve a lot of it?

I've found in handguns the opposite is true of the above. Tell the 32-20 guys that when they are having trouble getting them to shoot a decent group. The whole "secret" is getting consistent ignition and that is solvable. This is the thing you are seeking in these threads.

[44man]

More fun and games today. I went down to shoot some of my harder boolits. I have been shooting WW metal with 2% tin. The last time I shot I found huge amounts of leading. I pushed out strands for an hour. You are all going to say things but no, the boolit is .476 and the throats are .4765.
I shot ten and went to see. The hard alloy was hitting much lower and were in the backstop under the paper. I had a nice round 1-1/2" group with 8 of them and 2 were higher, just in the paper. Went back to 50 yd's and it took 4 clicks of elevation on the red dot to center the bull. Evidently the hard alloy is shooting faster.
I then shot 5 more at 100 and this is the group. I was having a lot of trouble with the bag under the butt and got verticle dispersion from it. It is an old soft bag that goes to pot with each shot. I need something stable under the butt. I then tried 5 with my hand under the butt and no pressure on the bag and recoil was wild with the gun torqueing every which way, no workee.
I cleaned the gun and I found no lead in the bore. That is the first tight patch I scrubbed the bore with using Ed's Red.

[44man]

I had 5 shots left so I went to 200 yd,s. You can see the huge orange target I used to aim at with the red dot. Stupid is as stupid does and it blotted the red dot so I had to turn it way up which distorted it. I could not see very much at all but wanted to see the drop of this big WFN boolit. Of course I still had the bad bag under the butt.
Everyone posts that the big flat nose boolits go unstable at long range. I did not find this, all holes were round and the only problem I had was aiming and verticle dispersion from the bag. 3 of those shots were in 3-3/16"
The drop was a whopping 34" with a 50 yd setting. When I get a better rest setup and something better to aim at, I will try this again. You should hear those things hit down there.

[StarMetal]

44man

That friend Mike I told you about, well we went shooting one day with our 45 LC's. Mine an old model Blackhawk with 4 5/8 and his a second generation Colt SAA nickel plated with 7 1/2 barrel. We were shooting at a steel gong at 200 meters. I was shooting the RCBS 255 gr SWC with a stiff load of Unique, but not super hot. He was shooting a tradition safe Colt load. I could adjust my sights to hit that gong and I was hitting it pretty reliably. What we had to do for Mike was put a cardboard box we found up on the hill side behind the gong. We had to put that box like 20 feet up that hill. But I tell you what, that son of a gun was hitting that gong just as reliably as me with that old Colt by aiming at that box. Later on I shot an eight inch group on paper and this other shooter came to range asked what we were doing and shooting. We told him and he started laughing saying a 45LC wouldn't even go that far alone hit anything even if it was hopped up alittle in a Ruger. Then Mike showed him my group I just shot and he shut right up. Then I questioned him as to where he got that notion. We had a good talk and he walked away with having learned something and more respect for the "older" calibers.

Joe

[44man]

Right on! I have shot my BFR 45-70 at 500 meters and had to aim at a limb in the top of a tree. I don't remember exactly, but I think the drop with a 100 yd setting was about 26 feet. I was able to clang the ram almost every time after finding the right limb to aim at. I hate to think what the WFN boolit from the .475 will drop. The Lee 400 gr boolit was good at 400 yd's (385 meters) by shooting at the top of the 500 meter berm. I was hitting a small steel plate the rifle shooters were shooting at. Kind of messed up their minds. People will never believe how far a handgun will shoot.
I have been thinking of mounting a scope on the .475 to see what it will really do. That red dot is only good for hunting. I don't know what the hell I am aiming at with it. I get a better sight picture with open sights at long range. Is that thing fantastic on deer though. I have a Burris 2X by 7X but have torn up the tube in Ruger rings on a .44. I don't think I can keep it in place on the .475. The tube is so soft it is junk. The cheap Tasco 2X I had on the .475 was never damaged and is tougher then the Burris. I might put it back on. The reason I took it off was that it was too dark in the morning and evening when hunting. I could not see anything through it until it got real light. By then the deer were gone.
What has amazed me are some of the groups I have been getting with the red dot when it covers the whole black spot.

[StarMetal]

44man

I've told this incident before, but you weren't a member yet so I'll repeat it. Was at my best friends house for some informal plinking. I had a four inch Colt Diamondback in 22 rimfire. He had a Charter Arms 38 spcl snubnose. Well we were sitting on his porch, it was summer and he lived in the country. Well the field across the dirt road from him had just been plowed a few days before and I guess the crows found something to eat, bugs or something dunno. Well I said "Bob, I'm going to take a shot at that crow, lets see how close I get" Bob didn't bat an eye, tell me I was nuts, nothing. He just said "Go ahead, I'll watch". I mention this because the distance was every bit of over 400 yards. We hunted groundhogs in that area. Well I shot a long rifle hollow point at the crow and no I didn't hit him, but the shot was only about 4 feet below the crow. I thought not bad for the first shot and guessimating the hold over as the pistol was sighted for like 25 yards or so. Well, then I started shooting at a big clump of plowed dirt. After I got the hold over I was hitting it pretty often. You could see where the bullets were hitting because the sun had dried the dirt and it would make a puff. Well Bob took a few shot wth hit Charter Arms 38. After he got his elevation he too was hitting it often. Then he says "You know, if you tell anyone this they'll call us damn liers" I told him yeah I know. Then he said amazing how alot of shooter think a 38 snubnose will only shoot a bullet to about 50 yards and then if falls down on the ground dead. Not so as Bob proved that day.

To tell you the truth I don't think what we done was that hard of a feat and I'm convinced that anyone with any shooting skills at all, I could get them hitting stuff like that at a long distance with a handgun with some coaching.

When I first got my Ruger 45LC Blackhawk, the one with the short 4 5/8 barrel, I shot it alot, about 250 rounds a week. Believe it or not I was shooting a Lyman 195 SWC with a single lube groove meant for the 45 acp out of it simply because that was the only 45 mould I had at the time. This was waaaaaay back when I was young...before dinosaurs even. My load was that bullet over 9.0 grs of Unique. I got to where I could hit a two pound coffee can at 250 to 300 very consistantly. I have to laugh as they didn't have those 3 lb cans we have today. I got that Ruger rebarreled by Ruger and it's never shot the same for me.

Joe

[44man]

I guess our lives are very close. Having done much the same and hearing you talk about the same kinds of things, I have even more respect for you. We had fun back then, didn't we?

[StarMetal]

44man,

Sure was fun. Here's one you better be sitting down for because you're going to laugh. That same time period I was shooting that Ruger 45LC Blackhawk alot and those coffeecans, I was walking the railroad tracks hoping to get a shot at a groundhog with the Ruger. Well I took a break and was laying up against the bank alongside of the tracks when I noticed a little bird on the high tension wire up on a hill across from the railroad tracks. Well I was in the perfect position, back up against my back, put my knees up for a rest and took careful aim. BOOM! Bird just disappeared!!! No feathers, no mist spray, just one second he's sitting there, the next he's gone. It was a chickadee, very small bird, smaller then a wren. I figured the distance at about 50 yards. Well my friends really started teasing me about it. You see by that time I had bought that famous RCBS 255gr SWC mould I often talk about and that is what I used. That bullet over, yup you guessed it, 9.0grs of Unique. Did I ever mention I love Unique? Anyways they compared that bullet hitting that tiny bird with the same as a 55 gal drum SWC coming at a human. They said the reason I saw no feathers or mist spray was because the bird was on the meplat of that bullet. hahahahahahahahahhahaha. But wait...more. The next time I was walking the tracks same thing almost happen, in the same place too. So here I am back up against the bank, gun resting on my knees and BOOM!! Oh God, I hit the wire....and boy let me tell you it swayed and swayed and swayed and I was praying Please God don't let it break. It didn't and I quit that activity from there on out. By the way the shock killed the bird with hitting the wire he was setting on.

Joe

[44man]

I know all about that wire stuff. I used to fish a spot in a public hunting area before I got married. My soon to be wife was fishing and I would rest my Ruger mark I on the rag top of my convertable and shoot these little swallows (don't tell anyone) off the wires on the next road. The gun was dead on at 25 yd's and crossed the line of sight again at 80 yd's. The wire was 80 yd's away and many birds fell. Thank god I never hit a wire.
I would go chuck hunting there in the summer and when it got hot I would go to a farmers dump in the woods. It was full of beer bottles. I would toss one in the air and shoot it with the Ruger. Got easy so I would throw it as far as I could left handed and break it. Then I would put the gun in my left hand, throw a bottle as hard as I could with my right hand, grab the gun and shoot it. The next month, I would have to start all over again just tossing it in the air close to me. Amazing how fast the skill goes away!

[44man]

Sorry guys, I didn't quite make it. I put four in 1-1/4" and threw one. If you look you can see a white line I drew in the black spot. That is how much area the red dot covers at 100 yd's.
I shot this with my old Ruger SBH .44 and my version of the WLNGC boolit. Home made mould. I tried but need a scope to do any better.

[StarMetal]

44man

I was doing some shooting today and I thought why not drag out my Smith Model 25 in 45 Long Colt and see what I can still do at 100 yards. I had a box of almost full Remington new brass that I had loaded quite a while back. Yup, my favorite load, the RCBS 255 gr SWC over 9.0 grs of Unique and a kapok wad. By the way after shooting that box of ammo there was ABSOLUTELY nothing on the cylinder face and only powder carbon in some areas. The forcing cone was just as clean and noneless so was the bore.

Okay, I won't lie to you. It took me a while to get on target, that is see what would shoot the best. First I had to raise my sight 1 1/2 turns to get near the bullseyes, which by the way was a 5 inch square. I could barely see it with my bad eyes at 100 yards. First I tried resting the ejector shroud on my homemade rest and a sandbag under the grip. I wasted quite a few cartridges to figure out that wasn't it. So...I went back to my old style of shooting and that was no rest and just resting my hands on a sand bag. That was it. Well it took a few rounds to settle in, most part was my vision, but the Lord was with me and lo and behold my vision came through only by holding both eyes open. I also put some black on the front sight. Okay I was shooting at a target that I had been shooting some milsurp rifle at so those are the small holes. I shoot five shot groups because a box of 50 gives me an even 10 firings. You can see some of the "getting in" shots on the targer. The bull was cut from black art paper. My qualifying group is the one marked and has a paper tape measure next too it. Remember I use to shoot beer cans at 100 yards with this revolver with ease and that was off hand standing up.

This target is bonifide, I swear to you and like I said I had a time getting back into the swing of it. I use to shoot the crap out this 45 LC but since getting on this forum I've devoted all my shooting to milsurp rifles, except for that 30 Luger project.

So here's the target...oh yeah, this is with open sights, no scope on this baby.

Joe

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/738545Target-med.jpg

[44man]

Looks great, don't you wonder what it could do with a scope?

[StarMetal]

44man,

Yeah, I wonder what it would do with a scope...but I'm not drilling and tapping it for one. I tried one of those lousy mounts that mount to the side using the action screws, ***...wouldn't hold zero with basicly Colt loads. Nope, this one I don't want to mess up, besides you just looked at the 100 yard group...does it look like I need a scope for it???

By the ways guys, this gun has .456 cylinder mouth, I've always sized the bullets for it at .452....does it look like not matching the bullet diameter to the throats hurt this guns accuracy??? Yeah, I've tried unsized bullets in it and no difference. Now you know why I just cast, size and load and forget the rest of that other stuff....damn it's too much work to reload alone do all the other things.

Joe

[Nrut]

Great shooting Joe!....Your load is one I'll definetly try in my new (to me) Bisley Vaquaro this spring when it warms up and I have time....what primers are you using and how does this load shoot with out the Kapok?...are you using straight WW?......thanks mic

[44man]

I have always figure too large of a throat does no harm. Some of my .44's had very large ones and shot just fine. As long as the boolit is not smaller then the bore and the chambers line up good, what's the difference?

[StarMetal]

Great shooting Joe!....Your load is one I'll definetly try in my new (to me) Bisley Vaquaro this spring when it warms up and I have time....what primers are you using and how does this load shoot with out the Kapok?...are you using straight WW?......thanks mic

Nrut

I use Winchester large pistol primers and no the load is exactly the same without the kapok, maybe a tad more pressure. The kapok merely just keeps the cylinder face and forcing cone cleaner. I'd suggest to just load without it. It's just a sometimes use quirk of mine and mostly I don't use it.

Joe

[44man]

Well, this post has not produced one single thing yet. I was hoping to start a list of loads, etc. that work the best and shoot the tightest groups. Some of the things I was hoping to collect;
case used
dies used
how the case was sized
how the case was expanded
primer used
boolit used
diameter of boolit
bore size
throat size
powder used
lube used
gun used
caliber used
Maybe I am doing this wrong. Maybe all sorts of bad shooting stuff should be collected also to see if there is a pattern of some of the above components or tools not doing the job.
It would be interesting to see, say, that one make of dies is consistantly making bad loads or very good loads or one type of boolit will not shoot, like maybe one mould makers Keith shoots great but this other one doesn't.
We still have a lot of time because a lot of you can't get out to shoot or experiment. But if your loads can't hit the paper at 100 yd's, maybe we should have all the details for that too.
Yeah, I know, I just challange Joe but I was just fooling with him. If you kept reading you would see what my purpose is. I was hoping to gather enough information to help everyone.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, this post has not produced one single thing yet. Maybe I am doing this wrong. Maybe all sorts of bad shooting stuff should be collected also to see if there is a pattern of some of the above components or tools not doing the job.


44man,

I think what you are doing is excellent. I think people and the cast bullet "cause" would be better served by test findings than all the opinion rendered. I am starting to move more in that direction myself.

But why eliminate people? This is an accuracy knowledge enhancer, not a competition. Who cares if someone is using a ransom rest? Or a custom rig. If you want ..... fenatical accuracy information about "loads", you need to include the fanatics. Or find out if what works in 32 Magnum applies to a big bore.

Then there is the range thing. Range takes in load conditions and bullet design. You may be using techniques that load the most accurate cartridges in the world only to have them not hold paper at 100 for a number of reasons.

Are you aware that there were a few articles written over the years by Seigfried about 1" groups with magnums at 100 yards. And an artical about magnum hangun loading by Venturino that I remember covering what you search for. Those guys may have already done what you are looking for. Maybe you know this, maybe you don't. Why reinvent the wheel? Sometimes they will answer questions about their articles. Better than just letting your quest die on the vine.

I think that if you are serious about keeping this alive as an experiment that you get people to post who is interested. Then go off line so you can set realistic time tables for your research. Otherwise, this will all go to pot as you get discouraged with the communication end of it. You may not have anyone working the project or 20 guys. Find out. That's how I do testing from those that want me to. Then make a short post and say here's what we found. Or we need to go in this direction.

Just my .02.

[StarMetal]

44man

I think the thread has produced something and that is that I bet alot of folks, including you, found out his old fart can still shoot. :Fire:

Joe

[44man]

The reason to not use a mechanical rest is that maybe only one of you guys owns one. Also some guns won't shoot the same from them as they do from sandbags. Then some guns need to be rested in different spots. Some just can't touch a bag at all, so the shooter has to shoot it in the way it shoots best for him.
To get a good view, we need to include everyone. The same as there is no time limit or limit on the number of groups shot so the weather conditions will even out. I am sure as you shoot, you will see a pattern of how good the loads shoot even allowing for wind. This will limit the changes the human element makes day to day also. Nobody can shoot tight groups every day, but the pattern emerges none the less.
Who knows, maybe the effort will make a lot of guys become better shooters too.

[44man]

OH-OH, Joe's back at it!!!! Now how do I respond? Have to think about it, I will come up with something.

[StarMetal]

Yeah, take the scope off your revolver and shoot at 100 yds with open sights like I did.

Joe

[44man]

It's a red dot Joe. I did put a scope on this morning to see what would happen. I used my old Burris 2X7. I won't tell you the complete horror story with this scope, only will say it is the last Burris I ever buy. To get it to move a few inches required I put the penny in the slot and make two full turns and it still hardly moved. I finaly got to the other side of the bull and could not move back. Plus more problems. I yanked it off.

[StarMetal]

44man,

Doesn't Burris have a forever warrranty? Send it back, call em first and make em feel bad. I've had some Burris's and my Sako carbine still wears one, one of the best scopes I've owned.

Joe

[carpetman]

I have no experience with Burris,but most opinions I've read have them right there with Leupold. Do give us the long story.

[StarMetal]

No long story Ray. As we all know Burris use to work for Redfield and felt he could make scopes on his own. I won't say he felt he could make better scopes. I think just looking at a Burris you can see it is a more quality piece then other scopes. You're right in it almost being up there with Leupold, especially in price...Burris isn't cheap. I put that mini 3x9 on my Sako carbine like 20 years ago. It's been moved around the country and it has accounted for alot of deer. It looks good on that carbine and is small and light. I couldn't ask for more. The picture is sharp through it, but will admit the field of view isn't as large as a 40mm...the mini is 32 I believe.

That's it in a nut shell. We all know that everyone makes a lemon from time to time. It's not until you get a large group of people that give bad reports about one particular product that you should stay away from it.

Joe

[44man]

This is not my first experience with Burris. I bought a very expensive target scope for my rifle, along with the pistol scope. It was very dark and I could never get a real good focus. The objective adjustment for parallax on both scopes were off so much as to be unuseable so I sent both back and they fixed them.
With the target scope, as I turned up the power it would get so dark I got disgusted and sold it. I bought a leopold and love it. I will never part with it either.
I use a lot of Burris rings and bases with no trouble but I don't like the scopes. Maybe they are better now but I don't know.
Some guys like them and have good luck and I won't tell anyone to not buy them. It is your choice.

[StarMetal]

44man

I'm glad you bought all the lemons, that left me only the good ones to get. Hey about the parallax adjustment, with me having RK surgery on my eyes all brands of scopes are off on it for me.

When Japan was making the original Tasco's I'd never waste my money on a Leupold, there sure as hell isn't 3 or 4 hundred dollars worth of difference between them, not in my opinion. I've had some original Tasco's, which I still have, that have got thru hell and still working just fine.

Joe

[44man]

When Tasco first came out they had a problem with the cement between the lenses. It would craze and you could not see through it anymore. They fixed it and now they are as good as any scope made. I was looking for a variable for my rifle a few years ago when Simmons first came out. Didn't have much money. The guy behind the counter said to look at the wall at the far end of the store with the simmons. It was real sharp and clear. He said to turn up the power. Now the wall was so out of focus I could barely see it. I bought the Bushnell. Now simmons has some great scopes.
The whole thing is that once bitten, it is hard to try again. They all have growing pains and many problems are corrected but how does the consumer know when all is well?

[StarMetal]

44man

I wasn't talking about when Tasco first came out. I'm just saying whtn the Japs made them they were darn good. The ones now are just so so.

Joe