Things Aren't Good

[StarMetal]

Fellows...not to be a grim reaper, BUT things aren't good in this country. It was what, a few ago, that GM announced plant closing and big cuts because they were just about bankrupt. Well now Ford said the same thing and they are cutting back. Well lo and behold just today on the New Chrysler announced the same. Then we have the Winchester plant closing. About that Winchester plant, made me think, with forieing countries owning some of the gun companies in our country and some gun companies closing their doors, such as teh recent Winchester, who in the hell is going to make guns for our military in a time of war? Especially if we go to war with the countries that own our gun companies. What a big mess the country is in.

I'm going to stock up on gun supplies....I think the end is near.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Interesting fact reported on a Canadian radio station that was talking about the same thing last week- Average wage for a unionized North American auto worker is about $65.00 per hour. In China it's $3.50 per hour. Who do you think is more competitive? The unions have priced their members out of the market. Not just the auto industry, but in many skilled trades. Thus, we have a problem. And no, I don't have an answer.

[StarMetal]

Tpr Bret,

In last Sundays Parade Magazine they had the Top Ten dictators in the world today. Anyways they talked some about China. They said there is no mininum wage there and that the average wage is $1 an hour. Pitiful. In N. Korea the citizens are starving. They compared a seven yr old boy in N. Korea with one in S. Korea. The one is N. Korea is 7 inches shorter and 20 pounds lighter. Another pitiful country.

My solution? One: seal up the southern border, and I mean seal it up tight and put the warning out to Mexico it's shoot to kill. Two: round up all the illegals and send them back. Three: All manufacturing to be done in this country, no more doing it in foreign countries. Four: no more Chinese products...hey they are our enemy..screw them. Five: nuke the entire Middle East. Six: Nuke Russia, China, and N. Korea if they give us any poo. Seven: and my favorite..ambolish the Democrat Party.

Tpr Bret on the news today about a border incident. What appeared as Mexican military clothed soldiers, in military vehicles, and armed with machineguns, came acroos our border. I forget exact location. The border partrol was stunned...the mention of the machineguns and military uniforms scared them and immediately called for backup and help. Somehow it was resolved and what it had to do with was drugs....the Mexicans, whoever they were, had lots of drugs and marijuana on those vehicles. What's alarming is we still don't know if they were actual Mexican soldiers or if they were criminals dressed as Mexican soldiers. The bottom line is the border is out of control

Joe

Okay boys, lay it on me...tell me how nuts I am.

[grumble]

"...Thus, we have a problem. And no, I don't have an answer."

Sure you do, Bret. Trouble is, it's an answer none of us want to hear.

The markets will decide who wins and who loses. Losers will probably suffer quite a bit.

[Maxthompson]

Isn't that why we moved away from the big cities? The urbans wil get you. I'll get by,

Mike

[waksupi]

Interesting fact reported on a Canadian radio station that was talking about the same thing last week- Average wage for a unionized North American auto worker is about $65.00 per hour. In China it's $3.50 per hour. Who do you think is more competitive? The unions have priced their members out of the market. Not just the auto industry, but in many skilled trades. Thus, we have a problem. And no, I don't have an answer.

That's why I have zero support for unions, as they have far surpassed thier original intent. Yep, i'm going to buy someone elses goods, because I can't afford $50,000 for a pickup. If they were making twenty an hour, we could probably get the same thing under 20 grand.

[The Nyack Kid]

That's why I have zero support for unions, as they have far surpassed thier original intent. Yep, i'm going to buy someone elses goods, because I can't afford $50,000 for a pickup. If they were making twenty an hour, we could probably get the same thing under 20 grand.

I agree
If they got paided for what they do , not for how long it takes then to do it ..... that is how Logging works .

[Lee]

Said it before , I'll say it again. The only thing unions are good for, is iffn' you're a miner in West Virginia and two miles underground. Even didn't help them guys that much, but I suppose it was better than nothing. And Now in 2005, (last time I hear this "crap" was in 1955, is that "IT'S TIME TO HOLD THE MINE OWNERS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE SAFETY OF THEIR OPERATIONS. " ****, you only kill 15-20 of them at a time. What incentive is there in that??? Other than that, unions do no good at all, just protect the derelicts and deadwood, while driving up costs of anything they touch. And yes, the answers are there. Nobody wants to hear them. Who deserves more, a guy two miles underground, or a guy sitting on ahis butt spinnin' lugnuts on the left rear wheel of a sedan??? Or a big time, big shot, bling-bling basketball hoop jumpin star at $9,000,000.00 per year. Yeah, some things are outta control all right. Oh, and move to the country??? The meth-makers are movin here too, you can't hunt in safety anymore without the fear of running into some mouth-breathing low lifes meth lab, booby traps and all.
I better stop while I'm ahead, on a roll tonight, too much ranting............Lee ;-)

[Buckshot]

...............Fact is we're seeing the dreg ends of our good times. We ain't the only people in the world anymore who have stuff and want more. There are now people around who have had a taste and want a LOT more.

Face it. At the end of WW2 we were the only one of the belligerents whose economy actually increased during the fracus. In the midst of the war they still made washing machines and other household appliances. Civilians still had gasoline and tires (I know about rationing, etc but they had it).

We didn't have the crap bombed out of us. We ended the war more then just one of the military victors. We ended up as king of the mountain. Me had a manufacturing infrastructure second to none. That was rapidly turned to making consumer products.

If you don't think we were in the cat bird seat then, just consider this. In the 1930's at the height of the worldwide depression, Big Steel by itself in the United States produced more steel then the NEXT STEEL PRODUCING COUNTRY, and that was Germany and Germany in 1945 was now in smoking ruins.

At that time we were a major exporter. Our level of trade debt was VERY favorable. Wages increased and wages were EXPECTED to increase yearly. You didn't buy crap from Japan for a couple reasons. Lots of it was laughable, but remember that in 1965 a lot of men who were only 45 or 50 had spent some time in hell killing Japanese.

But as time progressed, the good times continued to be good and kids were brought up expecting to HAVE stuff. But in the late 60's and early 70's things began to change. Now a newlywed family couldn't just go out and buy a house on the husband's paycheck anymore. Wives had to get jobs in order to supply the necessary additional income.

Here locally Kaiser Steel had a major plant. It was loaded with good old Union steel workers, some who may have started there during WW2. Naturally there was new blood and these people wanted more. Had to have it to keep up with all the things you had to have like 2 cars, a TV in every room, vacations, the latest designs in cloths, and maybe wall to wall carpeting.

At that time it was in the papers because Kaiser had told the Union people they couldn't afford to give them what they wanted. It was reported that a new hire at Kaiser cost the company $28/hr. That was pay, benefits, SS matching and all the other stuff. Kaiser said if the union struck they'd have to close. The union struck and Kaiser closed. That about killed the town of Fontana where it was located. That was in the mid 70's.

That as an example is a tiny part of what is happening. The people want, and in order to get you have to be able to pay for it. Everyone expects a pay increase every year. We NEED a pay increase to keep up with what stuff costs. It goes around in a circle biting each link in the chain of spiraling costs. Consider though, some of the stupidity. You pay $65 for a pair of jeans that are no better then the $27 pair, but the pricier ones have the 'lable'. Kids really, really NEED $120 sneekers, right?

As a consequence, no one else can afford to buy what you make (as a country). Heck, WE can't afford to buy them ourselves so the automakers have to pay you to buy them. Add in the costs involved to make them, and it's no wonder they're broke. Who's next, the railroads?

The one thing American manufacturing has going for it is efficiency and productivity. We are still the number one manufacturer in the world and we do it with fewer prople in the manufacturing sector then any other industrialized nation on earth. I believe that that one fact is the thing that has allowed us to survive as long as we have. Add our agricultural expertise to that also.

That and the fact that we are still basicly free, and that there yet remains the opportuinity to succeed. People still want to come and live here.

One other point to consider also. We're also the worlds largest consumer. If we suddenly quite buying, the effect would cause a tsunami effect around the world with resounding consequenses. Some effects not so good. For my small part, I honestly do make an effort to buy products made in America.

If you look at it a certain way, the next 10 years are sure to be extremely interesting, for sure.

Well, it's time to go have a bowl of ice cream!

...............Buckshot

[7br]

I'll throw my .02 on the table. A lot of this is relative. My kids have it a lot easier than I did growing up. Hell, I live better than the King of England did 200 years ago. Better food, cold beer in the fridge, cool in the summer, warm in the winter.

Do each of my kids need a TV in their room and their own personal laptop? Big breath here. This is going to keep going on for a while. Just like heat and water, capital will flow to the lowest point. Sooner or later, things come to equilibrium and it quits flowing. Sooner or later, those $3.50 an hour workers will want $4.00, then $8.00, etc. To tell the truth, it probably isn't the actual wages that is killing US companies, it is health care.

[wills]

Unfortunately Capts. Jack Hays and Sam Walker are no longer with us.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3610528.html

[Scrounger]

How do you tell a worker he's not worth $4 an hour (so he can maybe feed his family better or) when he sees a CEO taking in millions, and many more lessor flunkies taking home 10, 20, even 100 times his wages and doing nothing in his eyes, not getting his hands dirty or even touching in any way the product being made. A hundred, hundred-fifty years ago, the workers didn't realize they were getting only the peelings from the fruit of their labor-now they do and they want a bigger share. You want pay tied in to production? OK, the more you produce, the more you get paid----as long as the payoffs are equitable with those non-producing leeckes who siphon-off most of the money. You also got to remember that his pay demands are tied-in with the escalating prices of the goods and services that he wants and needs. We can get into a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' thing on this but it is the driving factor. Here is an example of how pricing is not just driven by wages. About ten years ago California increased their Minimum wage by $0.25 an hour. I belong to a little shooting club that shot skeet once a month, maybe 5 people would show up. The facility we shot at raised the cost of a round $0.50, citing the wage increase. The kid got an extra quarter an hour, during which he ran two squads of shooters through the field, bringing in his employer an extra $5. That doesn't seem quite right to me. Yes, maybe because of the wage increase up the line, some of his other expenses may have increased, but not likely, because that kid was probably the only one even tangentially involved who was affected by the minimum wage increase. Just one example of greedy owners using workers wage increase to justify price increases, far out of proportion to their actual influence.

[StarMetal]

Hmmmmmm....guess I got something going here. Let me touch on trying to buy American goods.

Curmudgeon said in another post he quit buying Leiv's because they are anti gun and made in China. Curmudgeon....can I have $50 for every item I find inside your home when I come and inspect that is made in China? Ninety percent of the stuff in Walmart is made in China. I made another batch of bacala (it uses cod fish) and the damn fish I bought was from China!!!! I think it's only 15 percent of your car is an american product. It's hard to buy an American product.

Someone mentioned American manufacturing and productivity. Well you know the Japanese had big intentions of coming to American and building factories and making it and it's American workers work under the Japanese philosophy. Let me give you an example. In Ohio they built the Honda plant. When it first started operating the Jap management had a time out period for exercise. Yup, you stopped working and everyone had to do exercises. They even had a big gym that you jogged around inside when the weather was bad. Well it didn't last long...Americans just aren't and didn't put up with their philosophy ****. I worked at a Japanese auto part plant for a short while and one thing I noticed is they didn't allow you to talk to your fellow worker...they'd come over and chew you out. You also worked till just a few minutes until punch out time too. And here's one of my biggest gripe of Japanese philosophy....they call their employees associaties. I'm not any freaken associate, I'm an American employee. I'll tell you some other companies that use that crappy associate thing and that's Walmart and Kmart. You know what, we didn't drop enough nuke bombs on those ******** in WWII.....Yeah I know it says in the Bible that God created all of us and that we should get along, but guess what, it's not going to happen. While on that subject for moment, anyone answer me this question especially Dan Bullshop and other's of the cloth. It says in the Bible that as long as there is man on earth that there will be war after war. So why do we (countries) try to make peace???? It's a waste of time, the Bible says so.

About those steel mills closing and the towns dying, I think I know this better then most. See I grew up right next to towns that had happen. Bass Ackwards and others from the southeastern region of Pennsylvania can vouch for me. Ask them about the towns of Monnesson and Donora that folded up and died when their steel mills closed. You fellows who don't live back there will know of the steel mill in Monnesson that closed because if you saw the Robo Cop movies, one was part of one of the movies was filmed inside the grounds of that defunk mill.

The news is big on those coal mine disasters back east here. I'm hearing that the company had many safety violations and that the fines for them were drastically reduced or neglected. In other words they didn't even get their hands slapped. That's not the Unions fault. That's evil going on between upper company management and OSHA. Like that Democrat Senator said, for $200 dollars they could have two safety devices that would help a miner stay alive and be located a bit longer then without them. Why don't they have them? They should have. By God after all you think that the astronauts don't have every bit of techical safety possible on their spaceflights?

Well enough ranting.........Gee maybe I'll have to change StarMetal to another nick since it has American METAL in it or before someone tries to Unionize me.

Joe

[Bullshop]

Joe
To answer your question.
ST. Matthew
CH-24
verse-6
I rejoice in the fullfilment of scripture, and look forward to the return of our savior Christ Jesus.
BIC/BS

[MT Gianni]

The $65 an hour is not what the union members are getting if it is like the outfit I work for. They count the cost of benefits, the wages of the people that work in benefits, accounting and billing, as well as utilities and amortization of the building all as part of my salary. No huge complaints but the chinese making $3.50 a day probably doesn't get the add-on's. When I was in Mexico City several years ago the guide said the fine for no seat belts, speeding and trafic infractions was $100, the wage for the policeman was $7.50 a day. W"Do you think they will take a bribe?" When deregulation created a shortage of the ability to pay for el;ectricity in California several years ago the answer was to look into building power plants in baja " so we wouldn't have to mess with all the safety crap" No real answers for this mess they call a global economy but until people are treated fair by corporations we all lose. Gianni.

[onceabull]

Mt.Gianni: and the day I start running Mexico is the same day the country starts building Nuc.power plants all along The U.S. Border.. How long do you think it would take the "the gringo's" to come running,waving greenspans big time... Onceabull