No Serial Number

[sundog]

Fellers, I had the opportunity to view and fondle and original 92 SRC Winchester in 38WCF. Everything I could find shows production starting at SN 1. SN is either on lower tang or underside forward receiver. No SN either place. Only thing is "W R A CO" on bottom of receiver where the SN was placed later on when it was moved form the lower tang. Action is good, bbl not bad with only light pitting. Stock has original finish. Any clues? sundog

[45 2.1]

Look for the remnants of a pair of legs somewhere on the rifle.

[sundog]

Pair of legs. Wusdat? sundog

[45 2.1]

It walked out of the factory before it got a serial number. The proverbial five finger discount.

[stocker]

Refer to page 648 of Madis' "The Winchester Book". Winchester did this to guns returned to the factory that had the serial number removed (usually by a mail order seller). Apparently some dealers who sold below the retail price specified by Winchester could not obtain the rifles from Winchester. They got them from other dealers and then removed the serial number so that the rifle could not be identified as coming from an in between purchaser. Madis has a good picture of a rifle that had been marked in this manner. Makes it interesting doesn't it.

[sundog]

45, well, duh!.

Stocker, not familiar with Madis' book. Any more info, or can you post a pic? sundog

[stocker]

Sundog: Madis published a big book (The Winchester Book) and a smaller book (The Winchester Handbook) . These are almost the Bibles of Winchester collectors or fanciers. My kids gave me both a few years back and I spend hours looking at dream rifles and reading the text. I believe George Madis was considered the authoritative source for firearms manufactured by Winchester.

The "Book" is 9" x 11" x 2 1/4" thick and cost my daughter over 100.00 Canadian when she bought it. The handbook is smaller and I believe the cost was about 40.00. It has a great deal of the same info as the big one but fewer pictures (still quite a lot). Both books are hard cover.

I'm sorry , I have no means of posting a picture for you.

If you can beg, borrow or steal one of these books you'll enjoy it. The big book is Library of Congress number 79-8991 if you can arrange one through a library loan.
There are 1800 photographs in the big book which shows many if not most of the variations of Winchesters. Also lots of info on grades, barrel weights, proof marks, makers marks, inspectors marks, factory repair/rebuild marks as well as good serial number/year of manufacture tables.

[stocker]

Sundog:

Forgot to mention the time span that Winchester did this marking of guns without numbers. Madis says from before 1900 to 1903. Not sure how many years before but it should give you an idea that the rifle must have been returned to Winchester for some reason prior to 1903 assuming the marks weren't applied later by an imitator.

The picture in the Madis book looks like the serial number was professionally obliterated by some type of stipled roll mark and the WRA CO was stamped over the roll mark by the factory.

[sundog]

Stocker, you're a jewel. That mark I'm talking about has like little dimples around some of. I'm gonna take a loupe with me tomorrow to see if I can see anymore. I was thinking some kind of 'rolled imprint' when I first looked at it, and it almost looks like maybe there might have been something there earlier. I'm no expert, but it all looks original. If this is all true, it will sure help date it. Neat, handling a real piece of history. sundog

[stocker]

Sundog:
Sounds like you have exactly what the "Book" pictured. Are you in a situation where you might acquire this rifle? I have no idea what serious collectors consider this marking to do to values. Decrease it somewhat or increase it because of rarity? My gut feel is decrease but I would not hesitate to acquire it if you can.


Can't you just visualize some little dealer in an obscure gun shop in Pahrump ( I thought one of the members here was being funny until I found that place in an Atlas) ordering 5000 model 92's and flipping them to Sears Roebuck for a modest handling fee at which point Sears sent them to a clever guy to roll out the serial number so Joe from Pahrump wouldn't catch any flack from Winchester? And Winchester couldn't figure it out????

Best.

[versifier]

Some of you LEO's out there may have access to a contact that would be able to provide more complete information on the topic, but I remember seeing a program on the History Channel several years ago that concerned tracing crime guns that had had the serial numbers ground off. The act of stamping the numbers compresses the metal underneath and there is a way to bring the numbers out. The details on how it was done have floated out of my left ear and down the street however. I do not know if they would still be discernable after the dimpling and roll marking, but I have an idea that they might. Just a thought.

[Txredraider]

Gentlemen,

I'm a lurker from way back in the Shooters days and always felt more comfortable reading than posting. I've gleaned some great information from the lot of you over the last few years and I'm deeply appreciative.

George Madis was my 4H rifle coach. I never knew him as anything but "George". I knew that he would bring some interesting rifles from his collection for us to handle and shoot, but I had no idea of what high esteem people held him in. I remember a very nice Winchester 62 pump 22 that he would bring. I much preferred it to the Anshutz target rifle I was supposed to shoot. He never said a word when one of us would accidentally whack the barrel on the concrete floor or otherwise abuse it. I think back on that now and cringe. He was one of the most unassuming men you would ever have the pleasure of meeting and he instilled in us the three most important things about shooting. In his words "Be safe, have fun, and be accurate; in that order".

Years later, I was having a conversation with a friend in college about firearms and he was telling me about his father's extensive Winchester collection. He mentioned something about someone named Madis and I laughed. "I had a rifle coach named Madis", I said. "THE George Madis", he asked. That's when I realized that the good natured man who spent so many Monday evenings in that smoke filled building on the fairgrounds was famous.

In the days before the big brown truck made a lot of rural deliveries, George would have them drop off rifles for appraisal or study at the gas station in the nearest town. I often wonder if the clerk had any idea about the contents of those long boxes and how many thousands of dollars worth of rifles passed through that station over the years.

George passed away not too long ago, but I still have great memories about him and that rifle team. My wife's grandmother gifted me with an older copy of George's Winchester Book this year for Christmas and it is now one of my most prized posessions. When I flip through it I can almost smell his cigarretes and see his hair slicked back with Vitalis.

I just thought you gentlemen would appreciate a little background one of the most famous names associated with Winchester after Oliver.

Tx

[stocker]

TXRR: He was a giant amongst firearms historians. You should consider yourself blessed for the contact you had with him. I am green withy envy. His "Book" and "Handbook" are the best wish books you could hope to scan.

It is interesting to look at the factory variations Winchester once supplied at reasonable cost and then see what is currently happening to the name and merchandise in this generation. A crying shame.

[wills]

http://www.georgemadis.com/pages/abgrg.html

http://www.winrest.com/georgemadis.html

[9.3X62AL]

"Acid raising" of obliterated firearm serial numbers on iron or steel surfaces is fairly simple to do--but often ruins the surrounding finish, so on the Winchester in question another method of developing the serial number is indicated.

[versifier]

Yup Al, that was it. Dang it but the old rememberer isn't working like it used to. They don't make the parts for it anymore, though, model upgraded or somesuch. I think there is an xray technique similar to the one used to check the strength of welds that was being experimented with. I know a civil engineer that specializes in that, I'll ask the next time I see him. There ought to be a way to do it without screwing anything up.

[9.3X62AL]

One of our forensic techs was able to discern the "compression details" of a filed serial number on the butt of a S&W stainless revovler using alternate light source illumination. Apparently, the acid doesn't work as well on stainless steel as it does on carbon steel, and lighting direction and intensity play a role in all cases.

There is not a lot of this work done any more, at least in CA. The rationale was to identify stolen property and get it returned to the owner, but now Cal-DOJ puts the gun owner through a ream of paperwork to re-issue a serial number for the firearm, which is more work than most people want to go through. They just get melted these days.

[Bret4207]

Depending on jsut where the serial number is located you can some times take abrasive cloth to the BACK SIDE of where the inprint is and lightly sand it. Sometimes you'll be able to see the numbers.

In NY any gun used in a crime or not claimed is destroyed. Post haste. You need a letter from the DA or Co Court Judge ordering non-destruction if your gun is stolen and used in a crime. Stupid.

[Griff]

Glad to see Deputy Al and Trooper Bret step in answer the "raising the dead ser # ?".
Never knew that George Madis coached a rifle team. That was very illuminating and as Stocker said, I'm green with envy, also.