Cast Bullets & the AR-15

[klw]

I've never shot cast bullets in a gas operated rifle because the myth was that the lubricant and bullet alloy would clog up the gas system.

BUT 223 ammunition is all but impossible to find anymore and when you do it cost a fortune. Back when it was $120/1000 I thought it was expensive. Now, I think, it tops $420/1000. So the cast bullet idea is looking interesting.

Also I've seen some threads, maybe here, that suggest that cast bullets will work in a 223. I asked a friend about that, someone who has shot a AR-15 a lot, and his response was that it was trivial to put a pipe cleaner down the gas tube so even if you did clog it it would be nothing to clean the gas tube out. Don't know if that is actually true but...

I know very little about a lot of things and the workings of an AR-15 is certainly high on this list. BUT would cast bullets work in a 223? Would they clog up the gas tube? If they did how difficult would it be to clean the tube?

I ordered a Smith & Wesson M&P Model 15 just now so I will find out eventually. But any insite would help.

[Larry Gibson]

Fathom this; If the cast bullet load is fuctioning the action doesn't that mean the gas is blowing clear through the gas tube, through the carrier key and into the gas piston of the bolt and bolt carrier? If so then what part of "bullet lube" or "bullet alloy" is plugging the gas tube? The answer is none. The military one time used large numbers of M221 .22LR sub cal divices to shoot .22LR ammo out of M16A1s. Thousands of .22LR ammo was known to have been fired in thousands of M16A1s without any problems.

"myth was that the lubricant and bullet alloy would clog up the gas system"

You stated it correctly, it is a myth. Many of us shoot cast bullets in all manner of gas operated firearms, including the M16/AR series, without any problems whatso ever. You just have to understand the limitations of cast bullets is all. Do a "search" of this forum on this topic and you will get a lot of good information.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

I have to agree with larry. I just cant see a gas tube getting plugged. theres just to much pressure in the gas tube to allow it. If anything i can see only two problems. I think that if you got lube it the tube that when you were done for the day the lube from the last shot may still be coating the tube and may dry or even get baked on the inside of the tube but it would take many many times doing this to cause any pluggage. I think the major problem would be in the carrier and bolt with crud building up if you werent the type to clean your rifle often like me. I just got it in my head that if im shooting cast that day a good cleaning is nessisary afterward and when doing that like was said it sure isnt a big deal to run a pipe cleaner through the gas tube too.

[nicholst55]

I'm inclined to agree with Larry and Lloyd - as long as you're realistic in your expectations and use an adequate alloy and lube, you shouldn't experience any unexpected problems. I would be inclined to disassemble and clean the bolt carrier and bolt every time I shot the rifle, simply because if you do have any problems with lead or lube buildup, that's where it will be.

As every AR shooter knows, the direct impingement gas system of the Stoner design leaves all sorts of carbon inside the bolt carrier and on the bolt anyway. I would expect any lube or lead deposits to be driven there by gas pressure. I honestly don't believe that the gas tube CAN clog up on the AR-15 or M16 - not unless something is very seriously wrong with your ammo. According to Armalite, gas port pressure of M193 Ball (55 grain) ammo in a 20" rifle is 13,000 PSI. Do you think much (if anything) is going to stay in that gas tube?

[klw]

Thanks! That's helpful.

[danski26]

I have never seen a "clogged" gas tube on an AR. Doesn't mean it can't happen though. They split, bulge and get bent once in a while. Replacing the tube is a 5 minute job. Take the handguards off. Remove the gas tube retaining pin in the front site assembley, remove the gas tube, put the new one in and replace the gas tube retaining pin. Make sure the tube is all the way forward into the front sight assembley so there is no contact with the key on the bolt carrier.

[robertbank]

Would converting the AR over to a gas piston system work better? I am not sure what the cost would be but their was a piece about the conversion on American Shooter a couple of weeks ago.

Take Care

Bob

[klw]

Would converting the AR over to a gas piston system work better? I am not sure what the cost would be but their was a piece about the conversion on American Shooter a couple of weeks ago.

Take Care

Bob

That question I asked yesterday when I ordered my S&W M&P 15. My friend at the distributorship just chuckled. I took that as a no.

[Boomer Mikey]

Gas piston conversion kits are $400... most guys aren't going to buy one to shoot cast with and it's more likely to have problems with lube fouling than the original gas system. If there is lube/lead fouling in the original gas system it'll show up in the carrier assembly long before the gas tube would be plugged. IMO the rifle will stop functioning from carrier fouling long before gas tube issues.

I shoot cast in my 450 Bushmaster and have had no issues with fouling whatsoever. As long as pressures are kept high enough to cycle the action the rifle should work fine.

The real issue is making bullets strong enough to maintain accuracy at those pressures with a fast twist rate barrel.

my .02 cents

Boomer :Fire:

[7br]

Any suggestions on Lube/alloy?

How would you break in the barrel of a new ar style rifle?

[Calamity Jake]

I bought a RRA 24" heavy varmit 1:12 just for cast boolets. RRA garrontees ¾" @ 100 with condoms, I'm getting 1¼ to 1½" groups @ 100 with the RCBC 22-055 cast in 75/25 WW/Lino checked and sized @ .225, oven heat treated, lubed with Felix over 17.5 AA2015BR, lit with WW LR in LC cases, the action cycled just fine ejecting cases about 3'.
I didn't bother with breakin, I just cleaned all test fire copper and powder fouling and started shooten
I have about 200 rounds thru this AR with one cleaning @ the 100 round mark, I have found NO leading or fouling of the gas tube or barrel.

[captaint]

Since we're talking about shootin & cleanin AR's, I have one recommendation. Get a cleaning rod guide. You'll do more damage with that rod than anything else. WellOK, don't use a stainless brush either. Just keep it clean & lubed & keep the bolt carrier wet on the rails. Enjoy, AR's are lots of fun.

[StarMetal]

I've been following this as I shoot cast in two AR15's. One is a 6.5 Grendel and the other is in 7.62x39. I build them and repair them. I've gotten to see the insides of gas tubes that have had cast fired through their rifle. In no instances have I seen leading in the tubes or bolt/carrier group. I even have used Dacron fillers and find none of that anywhere inside the rifles. Of course if you have some crazy unbalanced cast load that leads up the bore badly I suspect some of this may end up else where, but this would be an extreme example. The gas tube on these rifles have pretty high pressure going through them and I can't see how lead would get much of a change to plug them or the gas port hole.

I follow all the articles on the gas piston conversions for AR15's. To tell you the truth I see no advantage. I don't think my AR's get particularly dirty inside the receiver even firing cast loads. I agree circumstances would be much different under combat conditions where a soldier may have to fire hundreds of round through his rifle before having a chance to clean it thoroughly. Now here's another important fact, especially for those concerned with accuracy in the AR15, and that is the gas piston systems take away alittle from the rifles inherent accuracy. The gas tube system places no stress between the gas block and the receiver, where as the gas piston system does. The gas piston system also changes the barrel harmonics. All this has been proven over and over. I believe is Eugene Stoner could have somehow built the M16/AR15 with the impingement system in fashion of the French MAS 49/56 that we wouldn't be hearing as much complaints from our military about fouling inside the receiver and heat inside the reiceiver. You see the MAS's action is a tilting block with a bolt carrier much the same as the SKS, the FN49, to name just two. The gas tube enters on the very top of the receiver and blind hole in the carrier that mates it serves as the cylinder. It is, as I said, at the very top of the action and exposed to the outside and no heat or debri gets inside the action, unlike the M16/AR15.

I would not worry about shooting well constructed cast loads out of an AR15. As a side note gas tubes only cost around $12 or so and are extremely easy to replace if you are concerned they may become plugged.

Joe

[Lloyd Smale]

I would cast hard and use a hard lube. That would hold down any fouling that might occour. One thing id keep in mind is that my ars are in the house not only for plinking but to protect my home. Shooting cast is going to be dirty and if a guy did it hed sure want to pull the gun apart afterward and scrub ever nook and cranny to insure it was clean and reliable. Ive never tried an ar so im no expert but have fooled with other semi auto guns and usually they start working relibily at about 2/3s velocity with heavier for caliber bullet. So i would first try a 60-70 grain bullet at about 2000 fps. If that doesnt run in your gun buy a new buffer spring and take your old one and start cutting one coil at a time off of it. If it works like that it would be a sinch to swap springs everytime you wanted to swap between cast and jacketed.

[Gunor]

To all, I had to bump this thread - read the first post. Has not changed that much in four years - maybe more.

Just bought a NOE 22 mold - great....

Geoff in Oregon

[P.K.]

I can offer a little insight into the piston system, and that it's great for what it does but it DOES Not cut down on cleaning time just where you need to focus. In mine, a Ruger the system is similar to the gas key in the bolt of a conventional DI system and that does get caked with carbon, it may not be "cooked" on like in a DI system( on the key, dental picks are great!) but it does get dirty and needs attention. The upside is your heat is dissipated at the gas system infront of your fore grip and no "hot hand" on sustained firing or after a long run practicing a stage. ( not going into paticulars like weight etc.) The Carrier will still get dirty with grit, shavings( brass and steel) and other crud that is not unusual for a range, so your cleaning time will be the same, just won't have to focus on the carrier or key as much. The dynamic's of the piston/gas system are diffren't so expect to see wear in diffrent areas and for some alarming. Rather than "push" like a DI does with gas into the key a piston "bangs or hammers" the carrier back so wear on the buffer is expected and untill breakin is compleate you will see shavings in the lower. (nothing to be alarmed about, natural wear and tear.) The naysayers will howl about how this is a problem and pistons are wrong, well if the piston system started out of the blocks with Mr. Stoners origional design 60 years or so ago I'm sure design and fit would have been factored in and no issues. But it wasn't and we are working with tolerances for a DI system and new tech. After pushing over 1000 rounds through a GP (Gas Piston) I still get the odd shaving off the buffer from time to time but I have yet to have a malfunction in the rifle, Operator Headspace and Timing is another issue all togeather and I'm not sure my ego want's to be reminded of those. ;-)

At the end of the day both are rock solid and proven workers. Mostly it boils down to personal prefrence and what you want. I have DI's and they shoot just as well as the GP. My dedicated Home/Bug Out long gun is DI and prolly always will be. But I like the function and the temp control of the GP too, call me bi-polar. :mrgreen:

[bbs70]

I have a RRA 6.8 spc. A4 with 16 in barrel and regular gas impingement system
I cast and shoot my hard cast boolits through it to save money so I can shoot it more.
I gas check them and keep the velocity down, still experimenting with powders for accuracy.
I use 2 molds, both from group buys, a Lee 110 and a Mihec 125.
Seems the heavier one is more accurate in my rifle.
Haven't done much testing because of gun powder availability & price lately.

I love my AR, its a lot of fun to shoot. it has a high giggle factor.:Fire:

[rockrat]

One thing that has changed, the ammo is now about $800/1000!!! All the more reason to shoot cast boolits

[MtGun44]

I agree with what has been said, and will add - Suppose the gas system got a bunch of powder and lube
in it? So what! Get a long pipe cleaner, wet with your favorite solvent and a couple passes and you are back in
business.

Pretty big yawner.

IMO - the biggest issue here is handling these little tiny booits. They are a real pain to handle
and move through the processing system.

Bill

[cmdrted]

Hi gentleman. I have gleaned lots of advice etc from this site for years and would like to throw in 2c. I have the NOE saaco clone 60 gr mold. It is fantastic. Ive discovered the following for loading cast in an ar-15. I have a franken-15, bushmaster lower, god knows what upper a 20 inch military barrel that was de bayoneted and de flash hiden. With std 55gr and ss109 ammo it shoots @ 1.5 inch on a towel rest with iron sights. Looking at the 308 thread done very well, I extrapolated and now hold firmly that the traditional powders in cast, the uniques, 4227, etc don't cycle well with cast bullets. Reducing the usual jacketed powders works extremely well. The best shooting so far is with AA 2230 @ 17.5 grains. This load functions well as long as you pull the gun against your shoulder for full recoil effect. the group size is 1.75 at 100 yds, all day for total of 100yds. I clean the guns at the range so I can't say how many bullets will foul or cause a problem. The lube is good ole lee alox and sage gas checks bullet sized to .225. The other best powder that I was able to chronograph was aa2520 @ 18.0 grains. It was a good 2" or less at 100yds at 2160 fps. The gun functioned with a load down to 17 grains but was sluggish. 18 was the magic number. I tried as much as 20 grains of 2520 ( I have a bunch of this and not 2230) but the accuracy went up to 3" at 100yd. no chrono on these. 3031 aa4295 H322 all functioned well also with acceptable @ 2-3" accuracy at 100yds. To summarize use the jacketed powders reduced to @ 15-20%. for me the magic number was @ 18 grains of anything then tweak from there. Good luck, ymmv!